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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
    #26894184 - 08/22/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

see my edit


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894188 - 08/22/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know anything about any synthetic swabs, but what I do know is they were having no issues getting positive results with the standard early covid tests where they test for the RNA, with just cotton swabs.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
    #26894192 - 08/22/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

They would have us get a test every week or so, one with the regular deep swab but just in the nose not deep, and then a cotton swab and they were getting identical results every time.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894193 - 08/22/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Say that to Linus Pauling.

RIP

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/12154#1

https://www2.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/pauling-and-vitamin-c.html

Linus Pauling lectures on Vitamin C and Heart Disease
August 13, 1993
By Michael Wooldridge, MAWooldridge@lbl.gov
One of the great scientific mavericks of this century spoke at LBL August 10, 1993 at a special seminar hosted by the Life Sciences Division's Lipoprotein and Atherosclerosis Group. Linus Pauling, two-time Nobel laureate and the world's foremost vitamin C proponent, entertained an overflow crowd in the Bldg. 66 auditorium with a talk on Vitamin C and Heart Disease.

The lively 92-year-old first gave a candid history of how he came to take up the vitamin C cause. He was introduced to the subject by biochemist Irwin Stone in 1966. Five years later, he would pen "Vitamin C and the Common Cold," and then boldly go on to champion vitamin C as a fighter of more serious diseases such as cancer.

According to Pauling, the vitamin's versatility in illness prevention arises from its role in the manufacture of collagen, the protein that gives shape to connective tissues and strength to skin and blood vessels.

One of the great misfortunes of human evolution, Pauling explained, was when our human ancestors lost their ability to manufacture vitamin C. Pauling thinks the trait was probably discarded at a time when our ancestors had a diet of vitamin-rich plants and didn't need to produce the vitamin themselves. This left today's primates (including humans) as one of the few groups of animals that must get the vitamin through the diet.

Ever since proto-humans moved out of fruit-and-vegetable-rich habitats, Pauling said, they have suffered great deficiencies of vitamin C. Pauling has forthrightly recommended that people make up for this deficiency with daily doses of vitamin C much greater than the 60 mg generally recommended.

He said our vitamin C consumption should be on par with what other animals produce by themselves, typically 10-12 grams a day. Pauling practices what he preaches, having gradually upped his daily doses of vitamin C from 3 grams in the 1960s to a hefty 18 grams today.

Pauling went on to discuss vitamin C's connection with lipoprotein-a, a substance whose levels in the blood have been linked to cardiovascular disease. Lipoprotein-a is also a major component of the plaques found in the blood vessels of atherosclerosis patients.

Pauling has published studies asserting that lipoprotein-a is a surrogate for vitamin C, serving to strengthen blood vessel walls in the absence of adequate amounts of the vitamin in the diet. In the lecture, Pauling noted that animals which, unlike humans, manufacture their vitamin C and have much higher levels of the vitamin in their bodies, have very little lipoprotein-a in their blood.

Pauling is convinced that doses of vitamin C can help prevent the onset of cardiovascular disease, inhibiting the formation of disease-promoting lesions on blood vessel walls and perhaps decreasing the production of lipoprotein-a in the blood. Vitamin C's link to healthy blood vessels, Pauling said, is further supported by studies of scurvy, the disease caused by vitamin C deficiency. Fifty percent of patients who die of scurvy, he said, do so because of ruptured blood vessels.

Pauling won his first Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1954 for using quantum mechanics to elucidate the nature of chemical bonds. He garnered a Nobel Peace Prize in 1962 for his efforts to stem nuclear weapons proliferation.

https://www.emedicinehealth.com/vitamin_c_high_dose_benefits_side_effects/article_em.htm

Intravenous high-dose ascorbic acid has caused very few side effects in clinical trials.

When taken by intravenous (IV) infusion, vitamin C can reach much higher levels in the blood than when it is taken by mouth. Studies suggest that these higher levels of vitamin C may cause the death of cancer cells in the laboratory.


Privacy & Trust Info
High Dose Vitamin C Therapy Benefits and Side Effects
High-Dose Vitamin C Benefits
What Is High-Dose Vitamin C?
How Does High-Dose Vitamin C Treat Cancer?
What Are the Side Effects of High-Dose Vitamin C?
How Is High-Dose Vitamin C Taken?
What Drugs Interact with High-Dose Vitamin C?
What Studies Have Been Done Using High-Dose Vitamin C?
What Research Has Shown the Benefits of High-Dose Vitmain C?
Is High-Dose Vitamin C Approved by the FDA for Cancer Treatment?
Vitamin C (High Dose Benefits, Side Effects) Topic Guide

High-Dose Vitamin C Benefits
Vitamin C is a nutrient found in food and dietary supplements. It is an antioxidant and also plays a key role in making collagen.
High-dose vitamin C may be given by intravenous (IV) infusion (through a vein into the bloodstream) or orally (taken by mouth). When taken by intravenous infusion, vitamin C can reach much higher levels in the blood than when the same amount is taken by mouth.
High-dose vitamin C has been studied as a treatment for patients with cancer since the 1970s.
Laboratory studies have shown that high doses of vitamin C may slow the growth and spread of prostate, pancreatic, liver, colon, and other types of cancer cells.
Some laboratory and animal studies have shown that combining vitamin C with anticancer therapies may be helpful, while other studies have shown that certain forms of vitamin C may make chemotherapy less effective.
Animal studies have shown that high-dose vitamin C treatment blocks tumor growth in certain models of pancreatic, liver, prostate, and ovarian cancers, sarcoma, and malignant mesothelioma.
Some human studies of high-dose IV vitamin C in patients with cancer have shown improved quality of life, as well as improvements in physical, mental, and emotional functions, symptoms of fatigue, nausea and vomiting, pain, and appetite loss.
Intravenous high-dose ascorbic acid has caused very few side effects in clinical trials.
While generally approved as a dietary supplement, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has not approved the use of IV high-dose vitamin C as a treatment for cancer or any other medical condition.

What Is High-Dose Vitamin C?
Vitamin C (also called L-ascorbic acid or ascorbate) is a nutrient that humans must get from food or dietary supplements since it cannot be made in the body. Vitamin C is an antioxidant and helps prevent oxidative stress. It also works with enzymes to play a key role in making collagen.

When taken by intravenous (IV) infusion, vitamin C can reach much higher levels in the blood than when it is taken by mouth. Studies suggest that these higher levels of vitamin C may cause the death of cancer cells in the laboratory.

A severe deficiency (lack) of vitamin C in the diet causes scurvy, a disease with symptoms of extreme weakness, lethargy, easy bruising, and bleeding. The lack of vitamin C in patients with scurvy makes collagen thinner in texture; when vitamin C is given, collagen becomes thicker again.


How Does High-Dose Vitamin C Help Treat Cancer?
High-dose vitamin C has been studied as a treatment for patients with cancer since the 1970s. A Scottish surgeon named Ewan Cameron worked with Nobel Prize-winning chemist Linus Pauling to study the possible benefits of vitamin C therapy in clinical trials of cancer patients in the late 1970s and early 1980's.

Surveys of healthcare practitioners at United States CAM conferences in recent years have shown that high-dose IV vitamin C is frequently given to patients as a treatment for infections, fatigue, and cancers, including breast cancer.

More than fifty years ago, a study suggested that cancer was a disease of changes in connective tissue caused by a lack of vitamin C. In the 1970's, it was proposed that high-dose ascorbic acid could help build resistance to disease or infection and possibly treat cancer.


What Are the Side Effects and Risks of High-Dose Vitamin C?
Intravenous high-dose ascorbic acid has caused very few side effects in clinical trials. However, high-dose vitamin C may be harmful in patients with certain risk factors.

In patients with a history of kidney disorders, kidney failure has been reported after ascorbic acid treatment. Patients with a tendency to develop kidney stones should not be treated with high-dose vitamin C.
Case reports have shown that patients with an inherited disorder called G-6-PD deficiency should not be given high doses of vitamin C, due to the risk of hemolysis (a condition in which red blood cells are destroyed).

Since vitamin C may make iron more easily absorbed and used by the body, high doses of the vitamin are not recommended for patients with hemochromatosis (a condition in which the body takes up and stores more iron than it needs).

Vitamin C has been shown to be safe when given to healthy volunteers and cancer patients at doses up to 1.5 g/kg, while screening out patients with certain risk factors who should avoid vitamin C. Studies have also shown that Vitamin C levels in the blood are higher when taken by IV than when taken by mouth, and last for more than 4 hours.

:woooaaahhh:

1.5g/kg. I'm about 53kg.

:mindblown:

Math.

53 x 1.5, oh, like a blackjack! Easy peasy, no calculation needed. 50 pays 75, 3 pays 4.50. 75+4.50.

That's a lot of ascorbic acid.

I'm not comfortable taking almost 80 grams, though that may be what its LD50 looks like. Edit. Is that a typo? 1.5g per kilo of body weight? Seems like a lot, even to a crazy vitamin C popper like myself.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


Edited by HamHead (08/22/20 07:58 PM)


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
    #26894194 - 08/22/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here are my original test results from many months ago.


Every test that was done with the study, we were lead to believe it was performed with identical methodology as this original test was done.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
    #26894200 - 08/22/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

huh, well. with respect to the technique on something like that I just follow the policy. I've even swabbed a handful of doctors before and never had anyone say anything like "hey uh heads up you dont have to go in that far anymore".


in any case if they do decide to deep swab ya, protip: chin back, mouth slightly open, relax all of your facial muscles, and don't squint your eyes. slides in and out real easy if done right. you get the tickle at the back but some people exacerbate the pain by scrunching their noses up when it starts to in. I'm sure its a reflexive response but... now ya know


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
    #26894204 - 08/22/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You probably already caught and recovered from it already and don't even know it.




I don’t know a single person who has had covid, probably because a vast majority (90-95%) of the population hasn’t been infected. Still, six months in I would have expected knowing at least a couple people who had it.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894206 - 08/22/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

yeah I've read pauling's shit before. you still wont find me taking 14 grams of vitamin C or advising anyone else do so. you do you man. I don't think it's wise for you to be going around telling people to take that much vitamin C either, but I can't stop ya


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: koods]
    #26894207 - 08/22/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

You probably already caught and recovered from it already and don't even know it.




I don’t know a single person who has had covid, probably because a vast majority (90-95%) of the population hasn’t been infected. Still, six months in I would have expected knowing at least a couple people who had it.




:canthelpbutlaugh:


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: koods]
    #26894209 - 08/22/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

You probably already caught and recovered from it already and don't even know it.




I don’t know a single person who has had covid, probably because a vast majority (90-95%) of the population hasn’t been infected. Still, six months in I would have expected knowing at least a couple people who had it.



damn I know like 6 people outside of work who have caught it


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894210 - 08/22/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

My first test was a deep swab, it wasn't so bad I had my head pinned to a glass window helped me hold in position.

My 2nd test I had 4 tests. One deep swab, 2 in nose swab one just regular q tip, and one tongue swab.

Tongue swab was scrapped right away along with the deep swab every test after that was just nose not deep.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894217 - 08/22/20 08:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
yeah I've read pauling's shit before. you still wont find me take 14 grams of vitamin C or advising anyone else do so. you do you man. I don't think it's wise for you to be going around telling people to take that much vitamin C either, but I can't stop ya




I'm not telling anyone to do anything. If I offer you a bottle of vitamin C, it's your choice to pick it up and put it in your mouth. I may dump out more than a gram, or four, but that's because I know it's safe.

I'm sharing my own dosages.

You have done so as well.

:highfive:

The same cannot be said for those pushing for mandatory vaccines. Why does NIH or CDC get to tell me what to do but I cannot share Linus Pauling and what he discovered without being criticized?


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
    #26894230 - 08/22/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i'm not touching that one

i believe vaccines are largely safe and effective compared with the alternatives (ie, getting the disease or the drugs used to treat the disease once you have it) and i believe the world is better off ever since governments started HIGHLY ENCOURAGING people to get certain types of vaccines


a shitload of people are probably about to die of measles in the near future


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Onlinegopher
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894232 - 08/22/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I intermittently drink pine needle tea, its high in vitamin C and the plant form of vitamin A it has more vitamin C then lemon or oranges, and its healthier then drinking a orange juice


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

:kratom:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: gopher]
    #26894237 - 08/22/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gopher said:
I intermittently drink pine needle tea, its high in vitamin C and the plant form of vitamin A it has more vitamin C then lemon or oranges, and its healthier then drinking a orange juice



time to get on the bell pepper train son choo choo

i grew my own this year, it's really nice feeling like I'm staying healthy on the foods I planted myself


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
    #26894239 - 08/22/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don’t think the government will mandate the vaccine but I do expect a lot of businesses will require employees be vaccinated. Obviously schools will. Essentially, it will be difficult to fully participate in society without being vaccinated.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26894253 - 08/22/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
i'm not touching that one

i believe vaccines are largely safe and effective compared with the alternatives (ie, getting the disease or the drugs used to treat the disease once you have it) and i believe the world is better off ever since governments started HIGHLY ENCOURAGING people to get certain types of vaccines


a shitload of people are probably about to die of measles in the near future




Oh, measles. Here we go. This is a good one. A dot org.

https://physiciansforinformedconsent.org/measles/dis/



What about the vaccine for measles?
The measles vaccine was introduced in the U.S. in 1963 and is now only available as a component of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. It has significantly reduced the number of reported measles cases; however, immunity from the vaccine wanes so that by age 15, about 60% of vaccinated children are susceptible to subclinical infection with measles virus, and by age 24–26, a projected 33% of vaccinated adults are susceptible to clinical infection.24 The manufacturer’s package insert contains information about vaccine ingredients, adverse reactions, and vaccine evaluations. For example, “M-M-R II has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or potential to impair fertility.”11 Furthermore, the risk of permanent injury and death from the MMR vaccine has not been proven to be less than that of measles


Figure 2: This graph shows the measles death rate before the vaccine was introduced, when measles was a common childhood viral infection, and compares it to the leading causes of death in children under age 10 today. Hence, in the pre-vaccine era, the measles death rate per 100,000 was 0.9 for children under age 10. In 2015, the death rate per 100,000 for homicide was 1.3, followed by cancer (2.0), SIDS (3.9), unintentional injury (8.2), and congenital anomalies (13.6). The rate of death or permanent injury from the MMR vaccine is unknown because the research studies available are not able to measure it with sufficient accuracy.25

Edit.

i believe vaccines are largely safe and effective compared with the alternatives (ie, getting the disease or the drugs used to treat the disease once you have it) and i believe the world is better off ever since governments started HIGHLY ENCOURAGING people to get certain types of vaccines

See Dengue vaccine.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


Edited by HamHead (08/22/20 08:39 PM)


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Invisiblebudmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
    #26894281 - 08/22/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Hi could you go into more detail on the Dengue  vaccine, what should I know as I may frequent a country that has a high rate of Dengue in the future. Though I got bitten by a lot of mosquito in a country with Dengue  I so far haven't caught it but if I may be going there a lot in the future, a Dengue vaccine may be in order so is there anything I need to know about it?


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
    #26894296 - 08/22/20 08:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

budmanman said:
Hi could you go into more detail on the Dengue  vaccine, what should I know as I may frequent a country that has a high rate of Dengue in the future. Though I got bitten by a lot of mosquito in a country with Dengue  I so far haven't caught it but if I may be going there a lot in the future, a Dengue vaccine may be in order so is there anything I need to know about it?




https://www.cdc.gov/dengue/prevention/dengue-vaccine.html

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/03/719037789/botched-vaccine-launch-has-deadly-repercussions

Rush To Produce, Sell Vaccine Put Kids In Philippines At Risk
May 3, 20192:53 PM ET

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration just approved one of the most sought after vaccines in recent decades. It's the world's first vaccine to prevent dengue fever — a disease so painful that its nickname is "breakbone fever."

The vaccine, called Dengvaxia, is aimed at helping children in Puerto Rico and other U.S. territories where dengue is a problem.

But this vaccine has a dark — and deadly — history. One that has led to criminal charges in the Philippines, sparked national panic and fueled a massive measles outbreak that has already killed more than 355 people.

The concern

That story begins on a stage in Manila in 2016.

A young girl, about age 9 or 10, sat on a chair surrounded by health officials. She wore a bright yellow T-shirt with the words "Dengue is dangerous" across it. She squeezed her eyes and bit her lip as the health secretary of the Philippines, Dr. Janette Garin, gave her a shot in the arm.

That shot launched a massive vaccine campaign to inoculate nearly 1 million schoolchildren with Dengvaxia. The goal was to save thousands of kids' lives and prevent an estimated 10,000 hospitalizations over a five-year period.

But in the end, estimates are that more than 100,000 Philippine children received a vaccine that health officials say increased their risk of a severe and sometimes deadly condition. In addition, other children who received the vaccine may have been endangered because, their parents alleged, they were not in good health.

The French pharmaceutical company Sanofi Pasteur spent 20 years — and about $2 billion — to develop Dengvaxia. The company tested it in several large trials with more than 30,000 kids globally and published the results in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine.

But halfway around the world from the Philippines, in a Washington, D.C., suburb, one scientist was worried about the new vaccine.

"When I read the New England Journal article, I almost fell out of my chair," says Dr. Scott Halstead, who has studied dengue for more than 50 years with the U.S. military. When Halstead looked at the vaccine's safety data in the clinical trial, he knew right away there was a problem.

For some children, the vaccine didn't seem to work. In fact, Halstead says, it appeared to be harmful. When those kids caught dengue after being vaccinated, the vaccine appeared to worsen the disease in some instances. Specifically, for children who had never been exposed to dengue, the vaccine seemed to increase the risk of a deadly complication called plasma leakage syndrome, in which blood vessels start to leak the yellow fluid of the blood.

"Then everything gets worse, and maybe it's impossible to save your life," Halstead says. "A child can go into shock."

"The trouble is that the disease occurs very rapidly, just in a matter of a few hours," he adds. "And there's nothing on the outside of the body to signify the person is leaking fluid on the inside."

The complication is rare, says Halstead. Still, he was so worried about the safety concerns that he wrote at least six editorials for scientific journals. He even made a video to warn the Philippine government about the problem.

"I just think, 'No, you can't give a vaccine to a perfectly normal, healthy person and then put them at an increased risk for the rest of their lives for plasma leakage syndrome,' " Halstead says. "You can't do that."

The vaccine manufacturer disagreed with Halstead's interpretation of the study's results. The company wrote a rebuttal, asserting that regulatory agencies had approved Dengvaxia "on the basis of the vaccine's proven protection and acceptable safety profile."

The company also said it would perform additional studies to "further access the safety, efficacy and effectiveness" of the vaccine.

Despite these concerns, in July 2016, the World Health Organization went ahead and recommended the vaccine for all children ages 9 to 16.

"Yes, we did. It was what we call a 'conditional recommendation' with the emphasis to minimize potential risks," says Dr. Joachim Hombach, who led WHO's review of the vaccine. "We saw the problems. We also clearly pointed to the data gaps."

WHO recommended that Sanofi do more experiments to better understand the vaccine's safety issues. In its assessment, WHO pointed out that the vaccine "may be ineffective or may theoretically even increase the future risk of [being] hospitalized or severe dengue illness" in people who have never been exposed to dengue — which is about 10% to 20% of Philippine children.

WHO's recommendation came three months after the Philippines launched its mass vaccination campaign in April 2016.

A year and half later, that campaign came to a screeching halt.

The problem

In November 2017, Sanofi published an announcement on its website saying it had new information about Dengvaxia's safety.

Halstead's fears were confirmed. Sanofi had found evidence that the vaccine increases the risk of hospitalization and cytoplasmic leakage syndrome in children who had no prior exposure to dengue, regardless of age.

"For individuals who have not been previously infected by dengue virus, vaccination should not be recommended," the company wrote.

Panic hit the Philippines. In news reports, parents said that the vaccine contributed to the deaths of 10 children. Protests erupted. The Congress of the Philippines launched investigations into the vaccine's purchase and the immunization campaign. And Philippine health officials started performing autopsies on children who died after receiving the vaccine. "In total, the deaths of about 600 children who received Dengvaxia are under investigation by the Public Attorney's Office, " the South China Morning Post reported last month. Investigators have not yet released their results.

Here's the problem with Dengvaxia.

Typically, a vaccine works by triggering the immune system to make antibodies against the virus. These antibodies then fight off the virus during an infection.

But dengue is a tricky virus. Dengue antibodies don't always protect a person. In fact, these antibodies can make an infection worse. The dengue virus actually uses the antibodies to help it spread through the body. So a second infection with dengue — when your blood already has antibodies in it — can actually be worse than the first; a person is at a higher risk of severe complications like plasma leakage syndrome.

In its follow-up study, Sanofi found evidence that Dengvaxia acts like the first infection for a person who has not been previously infected. The body produces antibodies against the vaccine, which have a similar potential for harm.

The increased risk seems small. The vaccine raises the risk of hospitalization after a dengue infection from about 1.1% to 1.6%, the follow-up study from Sanofi found. So out of 1 million kids in the Philippines, the vaccine would cause about 1,000 to be hospitalized over five years, Sanofi estimated. (On the other hand, the vaccine would prevent about 12,000 hospitalizations for a new dengue infection in children who have had a prior dengue infection during this same time period.)

But in the world of vaccines, that's not an acceptable risk. A risk needs to be exceedingly small to be tolerated. For example, with the measles vaccine, the risk of encephalitis is about 1 in 1 million, or 1,000 times less than the risk from a measles infection, WHO says.


WHO eventually changed its recommendation. The agency now says the vaccine is safe only for children who have had a prior dengue infection.

By the time Sanofi acknowledged this problem with the vaccine, about 800,000 Philippine children had been vaccinated. The Sanofi study estimated that more than 100,000 of them had never been infected with dengue and should not have received the shot, according to WHO's revised recommendation.

Given the concerns by Halstead and the initial unknowns about the vaccine's safety, Philippine parents should have been warned about a potential risk, says Dr. Isabel Rodriguez at the University of California, San Francisco.

"What bothers me most about this story is risk communication," says Rodriguez, who studies dengue in South America. "There was a lot of uncertainty from the beginning [about the vaccine's safety]. That needed to be communicated explicitly. You need to be honest about what evidence is out there."

Dr. Su-Peing Ng, global medical head of Sanofi Pasteur, says the company followed all World Health Organization guidelines while developing the vaccine and communicated honestly throughout the process. "We've always been very transparent in sharing the results of our research," Ng says. "And I just want to stress that we have full confidence in our vaccine as it's been approved by regulatory agencies in over 20 countries."

In hindsight, Ng says, Sanofi wouldn't do anything differently with the development of the vaccine: "No, we have been very, very close to the research community, working closely with them over the last 20 years in the effort to find a solution for public health needs."

The repercussions

In April, the Philippine government indicted 14 government officials over the deaths of 10 children who received the Dengvaxia vaccine. The government said the officials acted with "undue haste" in procuring the vaccine and launching the mass immunization campaign. The Philippine Department of Justice said the campaign started before the clinical trials were finished

In some instances children were given the vaccine by untrained health workers and allegedly without a proper physical beforehand. Some children allegedly had preexisting medical conditions that made the immunization dangerous. But these children were still inoculated, the government found.

Six Sanofi officials were also indicted for not properly helping children who had serious reactions to the shot. Sanofi disputes this and other allegations, adding in a written statement to NPR: "We strongly disagree with the DOJ's findings made against Sanofi's officials (current and past) and we will vigorously defend them. There is no clinical evidence that any reported fatalities were causally related to vaccination.

"We diligently monitor the safety of people participating in clinical studies. We are also performing pharmacovigilance activities and continuously monitoring the safety profile of the vaccine in a real-world setting, including the Philippines."

Regardless of how these trials turn out, the debacle in the Philippines offers a key lesson for governments and manufacturers when it comes to approving and selling new vaccines: Slow down, says physician and bioethicist Keymanthri Moodley. Mistakes with vaccines can erode the public's trust and have long-term consequences for the health of an entire country.

"When a vaccine goes wrong, it creates fear and anxiety in terms of the public, especially the parents," says Moodley, who directs the Centre for Medical Ethics & Law at Stellenbosch University in South Africa. "That fear can impact negatively on the established immune programs that are actually safe and work very well."

Since the Dengvaxia controversy, the confidence in vaccines among Philippine parents has plummeted from 82% in 2015 to only 21% in 2018, a recent study found. Over that same time span, the proportion of parents who strongly believe vaccines are important has fallen from 93% to 32%.

As result, vaccine coverage for childhood diseases in the Philippines, such as the measles, has dropped, WHO says. And the Philippines is now facing a large measles outbreak, with more than 26,000 cases and more than 355 deaths during 2019.

Here in the U.S., the approval of the vaccine — to be used in Puerto Rico, the U.S. and British Virgin Islands and Guam — comes with an important restriction: Doctors must have proof of a prior dengue infection to ensure the vaccine will not pose any risks to the child. That's a safeguard Philippine families never had.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


Edited by HamHead (08/22/20 09:00 PM)


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Invisiblebudmanman
OTD Masterbater
Male


Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 17,982
Loc: PNW
Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
    #26894302 - 08/22/20 09:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So then there is nothing I can do to protect myself from dengue since i have never had it before. Well that fucking sucks. 
I mean there was a lot of more shit there than dengue  that wanted to kill me. But if I ever go back it would be nice to have some protections from some of the many dangers there.  Oh well I guess.

This really changes some of my perceptions of vaccines and my understanding of them and how they work. Petri dishes I guess are not 100% perfect evidence of how things pan out in the real world with immune systems and viruses interacting.


--------------------
Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal.

And I am mentally unstable.


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