Home | Community | Message Board


Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,136
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26892798 - 08/22/20 04:21 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Re: " Where it came from is uncertain, but it certainly did come from somewhere.
"
- - - -
very long entry on wiki, on this subject of Emergence

I will give the link, and 1st 3 paragraphs only

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

"In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own. These properties or behaviors emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole. For example, smooth forward motion emerges when a bicycle and its rider interoperate, but neither part can produce the behavior on their own.

Emergence plays a central role in theories of integrative levels and of complex systems. For instance, the phenomenon of life as studied in biology is an emergent property of chemistry, and psychological phenomena emerge from the neurobiological phenomena of living things.

In philosophy, theories that emphasize emergent properties have been called emergentism. Almost all accounts of emergentism include a form of epistemic or ontological irreducibility to the lower levels.[1]"

.  Beyond that there are no ultimate causes. The human mind cannot imagine a beginning to time, or an edge where space stops. To want such "things" is to desire a life of certainty, with no mystery, and no paradox - in other words it is the desire of a junkie -- to be numb -- or the desire of a coward to be dead.
.  That this is precisely what religions, that proclaim a personal God, claim to offer people, should raise a red flag in anyones' mind who is tempted to flirt with such sick notions. That we have had thousands of years of war, crime & corruption in spite, of thousands of years, of such religions seducing millions of people, should be an obvious warning, to steer clear of such mass hypnosis, prevalent though it is.
.    As there are no ultimate causes, for the universe there are likewise no ultimate causes of life, no purposes human life is meant to accomplish, to please some paternal God or immortal soul. Instead we get to be responsible, we get to be free, - & you get to "be it", as Mr. A. Watts said.


--------------------
A male barber shaves all and only those men who do not shave themselves. Does he shave himself?

This sentence is false.

Does the set of all those sets that do not contain themselves contain itself?

I know that I know nothing.



Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892805 - 08/22/20 04:29 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Beyond that there are no ultimate causes we know of.
I.e. where did the universe come from? My understanding is that the prevailing hypothesis nowadays is of a multiverse, where our universe is just a bubble in.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,136
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26892828 - 08/22/20 04:47 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Do you claim to imagine a time without time?
A time before time?
It simply makes no sense
a cause always comes before the caused
as time has no beginning, there can be no first cause
that is why an intelligent person enjoys a sense of wonder
being alive in the eternal present
and has no desire for some pretend 'certain' answer
that tells him who he is and what he must do
and robs him of spontaneity and life
while giving him beliefs he feels he must identify with and defend.

But the world being the way it is, those who are afraid of being alone in the vast cosmos,
will always find people to agree with them,
people with whom to share beliefs and final 'answers',
people with whom to congregate, and perhaps,
even people with whom to perform rituals,
and celebrate holidays, and so on.

And this is also fine, or ok,
as its just how it is,
among the majority of humans.


--------------------
A male barber shaves all and only those men who do not shave themselves. Does he shave himself?

This sentence is false.

Does the set of all those sets that do not contain themselves contain itself?

I know that I know nothing.



Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892866 - 08/22/20 05:32 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Yes I agree only people afraid of uncertainty or otherwise in demand of an answer will become dogmatic, blindly or willingly so.
I witnessed a good friend become a dogmatic christian after entertaining and believing in various new age beliefs and trying out psychedelics.
It is a curious thing how the psyche comes  to rescue and can trap a person's soul in various ways.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,136
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26892889 - 08/22/20 06:16 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Must have been strange to see your friend change.

A really odd case was Bob Dylan's Christian phase,
I have no idea what the back story was, or how he came out of it,
or to what degree he came out of it.

I used to go to a massage therapist/chiropractor,  who was orthodox,
then he started believing in more and more conspiracy theories,
and he had a permit for concealed carry (of a gun),
seemed strange to me.
Massage is to loosen up 'blocks',
but mentally he seemed on a path of increasing rigidity.

I stopped going,
I only wanted the bodywork,
not someone else's fears.


--------------------
A male barber shaves all and only those men who do not shave themselves. Does he shave himself?

This sentence is false.

Does the set of all those sets that do not contain themselves contain itself?

I know that I know nothing.



Edited by laughingdog (08/22/20 06:19 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 28,251
Re: What is life? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892924 - 08/22/20 07:36 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:...
A.  The science answer seems to be that its no different from the rest of the universe - (and couldn't possibly be different) whatever it is.
B.  At the level of molecules, atoms, then elementary particles, then quarks, & who knows what, waves, particles and energy seem to all become indistinguishable, or constantly transforming into one another, at an incomprehensible speed.
C.  This makes what we say about life per say, in a philosophical sense, seem irrelevant to me, and the "You are it!" answer, to be actually not just cute, but much more to the point.
...



I have been hoping that comments like this would get easier to read and swallow without heavy chewing, but these morsels just get stuck in my brain as wronger than righter.
A.  the science answer - is complex and slips around a bit (   wikipedia - LIFE ) occasionally including viruses, but otherwise extending from a model that is established in prokaryotes. The REST OF THE UNIVERSE is not in any scientific description of life. (I view the first non- Watts point as inaccurate and misleading - it obfuscates rather than clarifying and is untrue)
B.  this is a vague gesture at quantum concepts which are orders of magnitude below the level of living integrated systems. no current scientific impact of these ideas on life per se, and Quantum issues have no scientific relavence in biology at this time.
C.  this point purely added for cuteness to underscore a negative attitude.


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineYellow Pants
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 967
Last seen: 3 days, 1 hour
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26893113 - 08/22/20 10:50 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So randomness.  There wouldn't be a hidden zeal that allows Innerwisdom to enjoy uncertainty?



I'm not sure what you mean by uncertainty.  Because it is certain that all this life is here, all the time. Where it came from is uncertain, but it certainly did come from somewhere.




This is the hidden zeal that I thought might be occurring in the background.  And I admit you are not  uncertain but certain instead due to it imo.


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893177 - 08/22/20 11:43 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

I don't know what your point is. I thought I was just stating the obvious: something that is must have come from somewhere into existence


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe Blind Ass
Love affair with reality
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 10,727
Loc: DS9
Last seen: 19 hours, 57 minutes
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26893196 - 08/22/20 11:52 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Emptiness, Illusion, and Awareness.  That is enough, for my 24/7 sense of the mystical is a sense of the primordial , and it’s always just right - like Goldilocks.  It’s from being alive, with no other requirement.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps - or - give me death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (08/22/20 11:58 AM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineYellow Pants
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 967
Last seen: 3 days, 1 hour
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26893199 - 08/22/20 11:53 AM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Obvious?  Why not a vast physical impersonal cosmos that has concocted the conditions for consciousness to emerge temporarily where there is no "somewhere" it came from.  Only a giant matter of fact machine that occasionally churns out self awareness where its implied that the point is to die out.  Well, screw first then die to be accurate.  Would this grant joy and wonder?  Or would it be anxious? 

Because when you use the phrase "must have come from somewhere into existence" it implies that somewhere is somewhere other than here in this cosmos we know.  Imo this is a zealous claim and what grants the ability to enjoy.


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893256 - 08/22/20 12:36 PM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Well I didnt mean no such implication at all. I feel like you are understanding me wrong here. I certainly don't mean that it is certain that a god created this universe or life.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893271 - 08/22/20 12:44 PM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I'm just a bit confused by your original post.  You say wonder is the reward for not having a definite answer but sex and reproduction are the intrinsic aims of life and that this is clear.  So that is a question mark for me. 

Are you saying that reproduction itself is not a definite answer to life?



So what I was talking about here was examining life on different levels of awareness, let's say. The level of awareness of the less conscious lifeforms that we can presume things about, and our awareness of the vast cosmos in which this life resides. Sorry if this is not coherent, I have trouble wording this in english now for some reason.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineYellow Pants
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 967
Last seen: 3 days, 1 hour
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26893406 - 08/22/20 01:42 PM (4 months, 28 days ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Is it something that happens by chance? Why not. Billions of years is an incomprehensible length of time.
Did God create this earth as in he intervened? Why not...




No need to be sorry I was just taking these words and running with it.


Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I'm just a bit confused by your original post.  You say wonder is the reward for not having a definite answer but sex and reproduction are the intrinsic aims of life and that this is clear.  So that is a question mark for me. 

Are you saying that reproduction itself is not a definite answer to life?



So what I was talking about here was examining life on different levels of awareness, let's say. The level of awareness of the less conscious lifeforms that we can presume things about, and our awareness of the vast cosmos in which this life resides. Sorry if this is not coherent, I have trouble wording this in english now for some reason.




I suppose I would say that less conscious life doesn't reflect but simply moves instinctually or maybe not at all.  Hard for me to say.


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelostintimenspc
Stranger
Registered: 03/13/20
Posts: 119
Last seen: 6 days, 16 hours
Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26893955 - 08/22/20 07:32 PM (4 months, 27 days ago)

Life is a system. You get to explore it. Try to find enlightenment, it is the road to awe! Not death... right? I go outside every morning and find myself somewhere different.

Nature is like a civilization.


--------------------
After hours alone in the supernal bliss of the Reality, Reality no longer becomes something you rely upon. Instead, Reality becomes something you have to contend with, and not just in waves of unalloyed happiness, but as visionary states of the whole that are a factor above the concept of lucidity.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: lostintimenspc]
    #26894593 - 08/23/20 01:54 AM (4 months, 27 days ago)

Nature is all there is when you think about. We are a part of nature, although simultaneously fighting against nature in all fronts.
Somehow I am now fascinated by this thought. Behind our civilization it's all just the law of the jungle out there; the toughest and best wins.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineForrester
embracing the subtle
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 6,334
Loc: Maine, USA Flag
Last seen: 19 hours, 34 minutes
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26894688 - 08/23/20 04:00 AM (4 months, 27 days ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Behind our civilization it's all just the law of the jungle out there; the toughest and best wins.




This outlook seems to be common, but I question it sometimes.  Seems to me what we call civilization, at least in western capitalist societies, is more the law of the jungle than most of nature.  Most animal species are more likely to work together for the benefit of the species, and even among other species, in order to survive.  Where we humans, at least like I said in many societies, run more on the "dog eat dog", best "wins" philosophy, thinking we have to compete and beat out everyone else to "win".  (what are we winning, anyway?)


--------------------
Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 28,251
Re: What is life? [Re: Forrester]
    #26894815 - 08/23/20 08:20 AM (4 months, 27 days ago)

I exist as proof of its superficiality. I am so not tough.


--------------------


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineThe Blind Ass
Love affair with reality
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 10,727
Loc: DS9
Last seen: 19 hours, 57 minutes
Re: What is life? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26895070 - 08/23/20 11:34 AM (4 months, 27 days ago)

Reminds me of a little tale,

During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was.


When he wasn't treated with the deference and
submissiveness to which he was accustomed,
the general burst into anger.

"You fool," he shouted as he reached for his sword,
"don't you realize you are standing before a man
who could run you through without blinking an eye!"

But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved.
“And do you realize," the master replied calmly,
"that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps - or - give me death caps


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBuster_Brown
L'une
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 8,650
Last seen: 1 hour, 56 minutes
Re: What is life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26895174 - 08/23/20 12:57 PM (4 months, 27 days ago)

'Toughest' and 'Best' then being ambiguous in definition.


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineInnerWisdom
Male

Registered: 08/09/19
Posts: 1,653
Loc: North EU
Last seen: 52 minutes, 56 seconds
Re: What is life? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26895365 - 08/23/20 02:46 PM (4 months, 26 days ago)

I thought I answered this already.
What I wanted to say was that this is an admirable philosophy for those who have already had a family or who have nothing to lose. For those who have not, this seems more like giving up, losing.


Edited by InnerWisdom (08/23/20 02:47 PM)


Post Extras: Filter  Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
ergot 4,325 65 02/17/04 12:19 AM
by sakura
* forsaken or psychotic???
( 1 2 3 all )
IBLISS 2,650 40 05/16/06 11:40 PM
by Jackenobi
* "Father why have you forsaken me?" Randall_Flagg 733 13 09/14/11 10:23 AM
by sonoffox
* the recycling of atoms mariasabina 1,484 9 03/23/04 04:14 PM
by trendal
* Recycling the Fourth Dimension Ravus 1,124 17 02/04/05 02:17 AM
by Zekebomb
* recycling the shroomery redgreenvines 347 7 04/30/13 09:33 AM
by DisoRDeR
* Doomsday predictions from 1970
( 1 2 all )
Lakefingers 1,512 20 02/04/10 08:39 PM
by OrgoneConclusion
* ESSAY:Psychedelic induced mystical experiences by Alan Watts tekramrepus 2,251 6 03/21/03 01:43 PM
by pattern

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
1,537 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
Zamnesia.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.072 seconds spending 0.013 seconds on 18 queries.