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morrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: Ice9]
#26893754 - 08/22/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, how often are athletes given MRI scans?
MRI scans MRI SCANS??? I'm dying. Holy shit. I haven't laughed this hard in a while, thank you dude.
I would LOVE to find out how you're imagining regular "MRI" scanning of athletes would reveal the common factor in their susceptibility to viral illnesses. Of all the different kinds of scanning you could potentially use to try and figure that out, MRI is probably the LEAST useful one out there, though, as far as I can imagine, literally none of them seem look a good way to go about trying to answer that question. MAYBE a PET scan of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis could give you a little bit of useful information but it would literally just reinforce what you can typically surmise about someone by simply looking at them and asking them a few questions about the diet and exercise habits
I seriously can't wait to see what this guy comes up with
the real explanation is probably pretty simple: there is an optimal range of body fat for fighting infectious diseases. just like the obese, the hyper-athletic tend to be outside of that range. either way you go, problems result with immune function, just at different points in the process. Too low body fat interferes with the innate immune response which gives the virus the ability to gain a strong foothold while the adaptive response tricks to kick in. Too much body fat exacerbates the inflammatory state associated with the innate immune responses.
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: Ice9]
#26893762 - 08/22/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: You're kinda dumb.
This is not necessary.
I don't call people names or insult their intelligence levels.
I can start, but I think I'll be banned before you even receive a warning.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893773 - 08/22/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
Also, how often are athletes given MRI scans?
MRI scans MRI SCANS??? I'm dying. Holy shit. I haven't laughed this hard in a while, thank you dude.
I would LOVE to find out how you're imagining regular "MRI" scanning of athletes would reveal the common factor in their susceptibility to viral illnesses. Of all the different kinds of scanning you could potentially use to try and figure that out, MRI is probably the LEAST useful one out there, though, as far as I can imagine, literally none of them seem look a good way to go about trying to answer that question. MAYBE a PET scan of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis could give you a little bit of useful information but it would literally just reinforce what you can typically surmise about someone by simply looking at them and asking them a few questions about the diet and exercise habits
I seriously can't wait to see what this guy comes up with
the real explanation is probably pretty simple: there is an optimal range of body fat for fighting infectious diseases. just like the obese, the hyper-athletic tend to be outside of that range. either way you go, problems result with immune function, just at different points in the process. Too low body fat interferes with the innate immune response which gives the virus the ability to gain a strong foothold while the adaptive response tricks to kick in. Too much body fat exacerbates the inflammatory state associated with the innate immune responses.
Why are you laughing? Did you even pay attention to what was being discussed?
To make sure it’s myocarditis and spot causes, your doctor may order tests such as:
Blood tests to check for infection, antibodies, or blood cell counts A chest X-ray so he can see your heart, lungs, and other chest structures An electrocardiogram (EKG) to record your heart's electrical activity A heart ultrasound (echocardiogram) to make an image of your heart and its structures In a few cases, doctors order cardiac MRI scans or heart muscle biopsies to help confirm it.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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morrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
#26893796 - 08/22/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay so you're suggesting that these athletes were already suffering from myocarditis prior to the infection?
That is a POTENTIAL POSSIBILITY I hadnt considered, but why did you pick the very last kind of scan? Even in what you cited about diagnostics it is literally given as an optional last step for definitive diagnosis of a condition you already have strong reason to suspect MRIs are expensive, it's not the kind of thing you just throw at everyone for routine screening. If people think medical bills are high right now, jesus, they would be astronomical if insurers had to foot the bill for everyone to get routine MRI scans done.
In any case I suspect for most of these hyperathletic people it's just because their body fat is so low, they have really high cortisol levels. cortisol is what your body uses to make sure that what little glucose is in your body remains available for your vital organs. cortisol is a major natural immunosuppressant. we intentionally use it to suppress peoples' immune systems all the time. more than likely what is happening is they are getting a really bad infection because they are immunosuppressed as a result of high cortisol levels, and the infection is leading to myocarditis. This makes more sense since the myocarditis shows up in covid patients across a range of populations, not only the hyperathletic or even only those with preexisting heart disease of some kind
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893819 - 08/22/20 04:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: Okay so you're suggesting that these athletes were already suffering from myocarditis prior to the infection?
That is a POTENTIAL POSSIBILITY I hadnt considered, but why did you pick the very last kind of scan? Even in what you cited about diagnostics it is literally given as an optional last step for definitive diagnosis of a condition you already have strong reason to suspect MRIs are expensive, it's not the kind of thing you just throw at everyone for routine screening. If people think medical bills are high right now, jesus, they would be astronomical if insurers had to foot the bill for everyone to get routine MRI scans done.
In any case I suspect for most of these hyperathletic people it's just because their body fat is so low, they have really high cortisol levels. cortisol is what your body uses to make sure that what little glucose is in your body remains available for your vital organs. cortisol is a major natural immunosuppressant. we intentionally use it to suppress peoples' immune systems all the time. more than likely what is happening is they are getting a really bad infection because they are immunosuppressed as a result of high cortisol levels, and the infection is leading to myocarditis. This makes more sense since the myocarditis shows up in covid patients across a range of populations, not only the hyperathletic or even only those with preexisting heart disease of some kind
I didn't pick it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/08/02/red-sox-ace-27-wont-pitch-this-season-because-heart-ailment-linked-covid-19/
Red Sox ace, 27, won’t pitch this season because of heart ailment linked to covid-19
Rodriguez, who tested positive for the coronavirus July 7, was ready to return July 18, but, five days later, an MRI revealed what turned out to be myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart that has been shown to be a complication of a virus that can affect the kidneys and heart as well as the lungs.
Like, um, .
Edit in those I's and U's pointing out that it's a complication of a virus, not THE virus.
Just saying. Covid isn't THE only virus that MAY cause myocarditis.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
Edited by HamHead (08/22/20 04:15 PM)
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
#26893838 - 08/22/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm familar with cortisol. Used in some asthma medication as well as other medications dealing with inflammation. Interesting we use these stress drugs to help us deal with disease like asthma.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201301/cortisol-why-the-stress-hormone-is-public-enemy-no-1
Cortisol: Why the "Stress Hormone” Is Public Enemy No. 1 Five simple ways to lower your cortisol levels without drugs. Posted Jan 22, 2013
The stress hormone, cortisol, is public health enemy Number One. Scientists have known for years that elevated cortisol levels interfere with learning and memory, lower immune function and bone density, increase weight gain, blood pressure, cholesterol, and heart disease—the list goes on.
Chronic stress and elevated cortisol levels also increase one's risk for depression, mental illness, and lower life expectancy. This week, two separate studies were published in Science linking elevated cortisol levels as a potential trigger for mental illness and decreased resilience — especially in adolescence.
Cortisol is released in response to fear or stress by the adrenal glands as part of the fight-or-flight mechanism.
--------
Gee whiz. There couldn't be any reason for people to be experiencing an excess amount of stress these days.

Edit.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
Edited by HamHead (08/22/20 04:27 PM)
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Ice9
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
#26893843 - 08/22/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, it would extremely rare (don't think it has ever happened) that an athlete with myocarditis was cleared by team doctors to resume normal play.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: Ice9]
#26893849 - 08/22/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: Yes, it would be extremely rare (don't think it has ever happened) that an athlete with myocarditis was cleared by team doctors to resume normal play.
Fixed that for ya.
Bees are an issue much larger than Covid.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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morrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: HamHead]
#26893850 - 08/22/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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1) People with a low body fat are more susceptible to infectious disease because they are immunosuppressed.
2) Any kind of serious infectious disease can cause myocarditis if it gets serious enough. MYOCARDIUM is your heart muscle. ITIS is the suffix meaning inflammation. literally any kind of prolonged and serious inflammatory process happening around heart muscle can result in myocarditis.
3) One such viral illness is COVID-19, caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
4) There have probably been instances of hyperathletic people getting myocarditis after being seriously sick with the flu and other infectious diseases.
5) There are definitely instances of hyperathletic people getting myocarditis after being seriously sick with COVID19.
All of these things are true.
I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make right now, but I will admit I didn't read much of the preceding conversation. It sounds like you're trying to imply that all of these athletic people who discover they have myocarditis after being sick with COVID-19 already had it before they got COVID19. Eh, maybe a little bit, from previous infectious diseases and inflammatory processes. But the COVID-19 made whatever myocarditis that was already there much, much worse.
This damage to the heart muscle resulting from the prolonged, systemic release of inflammatory cytokines happens to anyone, not just hyperathletic people. Not everyone gets to the point where they have that level of systemic inflammation. Most people dont. But among those who do, the presence of some level of myocarditis thereafter is wholly unsurprising.
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Ice9
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893861 - 08/22/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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My dad has myocarditits, he had no idea he had till they rushed him into surgery from a routine check up and inserted a pacemaker which keeps him alive. After biopsying the heart they know it was caused by the flu he had the winter before.
-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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budmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: Ice9]
#26893876 - 08/22/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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You will find that a lot of if not all of the damage covid can do, the flu also does.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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morrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
#26893883 - 08/22/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
budmanman said: You will find that a lot of if not all of the damage covid can do, the flu also does.
surprise surpise.
the difference is that this virus appears to be about 2.3x as contagious and about 5x more likely to kill you. the whole spectrum of the immune response and resulting set of long term complications mirrors these attributes.
In other words, 5x more likely to cause myocarditis, 5x more likely to cause kidney and liver and brain damage and anything else could potentially see with a flu infection. And that happening at a much higher rate of contagion
There are also certain complications that appear to be associated with covid but not with the flu, but a complication like myocarditis is merely the by product of the immune response to severe infection
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Ice9
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
#26893885 - 08/22/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Totally untrue, the flu is incapable on infecting capillary endothelial cells which as more evidence comes out it looks like covid-19 is less respiratory disease but more a circulatory one. Flu don't do that at all. Nor cause blood clots in healthy 20-50 y.o., nor as leading research suggests, is causing permanent brain damage, and not from lack of Oxygen blood saturation. Keep up with the recent developments.
Edited by Ice9 (08/22/20 04:48 PM)
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budmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893887 - 08/22/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's more contagious but I do not think its 5x more likely to kill you unless you are extremely old.
This virus spares younger people for the most part. Not all but the vast majority.
We still need more data to get an accurate picture but here are the march and june graphs according to the CDC, if there are more recent graphs they would paint a more accurate picture I am sure but this is what I could find.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893889 - 08/22/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: 1) People with a low body fat are more susceptible to infectious disease because they are immunosuppressed.
2) Any kind of serious infectious disease can cause myocarditis if it gets serious enough. MYOCARDIUM is your heart muscle. ITIS is the suffix meaning inflammation. literally any kind of prolonged and serious inflammatory process happening around heart muscle can result in myocarditis.
3) One such viral illness is COVID-19, caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus.
4) There have probably been instances of hyperathletic people getting myocarditis after being seriously sick with the flu and other infectious diseases.
5) There are definitely instances of hyperathletic people getting myocarditis after being seriously sick with COVID19.
All of these things are true.
I'm struggling to understand what point you're trying to make right now, but I will admit I didn't read much of the preceding conversation.
Thanks. Appreciate your demeanor here.
First, I am of a low BMI, weighing at most 120lbs. Through better diet choices, I have not felt ill for a long time. I must stress that I do not wash my hands often, I do not clean my living space often, I have a dog that I bury my head into every morning because I love her so much that roams around on a loose weave carpet which doesn't get vacuumed often, I don't wear a mask properly, I pick my nose daily, my toilet has pink mold, there's dust on many things with a dust covered ceiling fan running constantly on low for air flow.
Second, because you didn't read any links posted by ice9, which I don't expect yoi to, but you may have caught that red sox player getting an MRI before coming in laughing.
I can be disrespectful too, though again, I feel I would be banned before you even recurve a warning.
Thanks again for your last post. It's nice to have a conversation without being called wrong, or stupid, or a toddler, or krunger diseased or whatever.
I may be a bit passive aggressive from time to time, but at least I don't call people dumb.
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
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budmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: Ice9]
#26893893 - 08/22/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ice9 said: Totally untrue, the flu is incapable on infecting capillary endothelial cells which as more evidence comes out it looks like covid-19 is less respiratory disease but more a circulatory one. Flu don't do that at all. Nor cause blood clots in healthy 20-50 y.o., nor as leading research suggests, is causing permanent brain damage, and not from lack of Oxygen blood saturation. Keep up with the recent developments.
The flu can literally infect the brain and is called brain flu lol
And I was also able to find instances of other things you claimed the flu doesn't do. Gotta keep up, the flu isn't very new and easy to find information on.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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morrowasted
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman]
#26893894 - 08/22/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The flu affects older people more than younger people too. This is all very explainable by changes in physiology and the properties of the virus
The analogies between the flu and this are basically useless. The treatment of the excessive inflammation is the same: corticosteroids. In fact, virtually the same ones that keeps people with low body fat naturally immunosuppressed.
Another way to look it at is that i am 5x more likely to need to give a covid patient betamethasone to try and prevent complications like myocarditis (among others) than i am to a flu patient
I have absolutely given corticosteroids to older people with viral pneumonia many times before the existence of covid. Typically i might have one such patient in 3 or 4 weeks.
Right now i have at least two such patients every. Single. Shift. I also now have people in their 30s and 40s needing to receive them for covid infection occasionally, which i have never once had to do for a person in that age group who caught the flu. Im sure it has happened but this is one picture of the relative differences in frequencies of severe infections in different populations. One that i suspect virtually all of my colleagues would concur with based on their experiences
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HamHead
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893897 - 08/22/20 04:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Corticosteroids
Cortisol and steroids.
Why use an immunosuppressive drug?
Shouldn't a drug which boost an immune system be a better choice?
Like high dose IV vitamin C. A powerful antioxidant which is safe at high doses.
Care to get into what happens when cells become saturated with vitamin C?
-------------------- The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited, but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders https://www.icandecide.org/
Edited by HamHead (08/22/20 05:01 PM)
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budmanman
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: morrowasted]
#26893901 - 08/22/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not true at all, it depends on the flu, h1n1 swine flu of obama erra actually killed more youthful people than it did old people.
-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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koods
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Re: The vaccine won't be enough. [Re: budmanman] 1
#26893902 - 08/22/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
budmanman said: You will find that a lot of if not all of the damage covid can do, the flu also does.
No. The flu doesn’t cause clotting problems. A significant portion of covid patients have clotting issues.
I’d like to see the data on stroke mortality. There are otherwise asymptomatic people dropping dead from strokes and heart attacks.
--------------------
NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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