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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What is life? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26930648 - 09/11/20 07:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

There's an ironic syllogism in there somewhere if only I can pin it down.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26931163 - 09/12/20 03:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said: Is it something that happens by chance? Why not. Billions of years is an incomprehensible length of time.
Did God create this earth as in he intervened? Why not...




I do believe it is something that happened by chance, like the likelihood of mineral deposits forming crystals.

If god was benevolent the things that exist wouldn't exist in my opinion.

Why not? If it is true god himself intervened, I think it would be obvious that he himself was the devil all along.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931172 - 09/12/20 03:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry God isn't the devil.. but I AM!!


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: What is life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26931180 - 09/12/20 03:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think it's pretty obvious he is.

Worms in children's eyes, cancerous growths, suffering on a global scale.

For all the good, only the devil could extrapolate such evil.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931195 - 09/12/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The Devil sometimes takes what he can get?.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What is life? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26931206 - 09/12/20 04:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What doesn't share human emotions we label 'monster',
yet the human emotions of grief & pain cannot be ascribed to the Architect.

To imbue human values on something that isn't human isn't rational.


Edited by Buster_Brown (09/12/20 04:44 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931254 - 09/12/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think it's pretty obvious he is.

Worms in children's eyes, cancerous growths, suffering on a global scale.

For all the good, only the devil could extrapolate such evil.



Holy!
I screw up several times per day.

For all the good lucky pretty things that live, the damaged and ugly things are a small proportion, but eventually all things become damaged and replaced with undamaged new forms, and a few broken ones in the next generation too.

Nature screws up occasionally. perfectly imperfect.

the devil is just in how you perceive trouble and pain and ugliness, while god is in how you perceive beauty and happiness.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931262 - 09/12/20 06:10 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think it's pretty obvious he is.

Worms in children's eyes, cancerous growths,




Perhaps you will agree that the evidence is circumstantial and unrelated to the character of an entity that might grant a petition to enjoy the perks of being an animal. However your dissatisfaction can be noted...


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: What is life? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26931263 - 09/12/20 06:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
What is all this life that I see around me as I sit by a river? Or why is it? All these species of plants and the whole ecosystem fine tuned to keep on living, each organism in its niche.
There is just the wonder of never getting the definite answer. Maybe some people get an answer from God about it, but I always return to wonder. It is clear that life has an intrinsic aim and purpose to continue on and reproduce.
Is it something that happens by chance? Why not. Billions of years is an incomprehensible length of time.
Did God create this earth as in he intervened? Why not...




you can’t hunt for something if you have no idea what it is...

Are aliens hiding in plain sight?

Quote:

Bartlett, working with astrobiologist Michael Wong of the University of Washington in Seattle, argues that we need to escape the straitjacket of Earth-based thinking about life. They propose introducing a broader category called “lyfe” (pronounced, in an oddly West Country fashion, as “loif”), of which life as we know it is just one variation. “Our proposal attempts to break free of some of the potential prejudices due to us being part of this one instantiation of lyfe,” says Bartlett.

They suggest four criteria for lyfe:

1. It draws on energy sources in its environment that keep it from becoming uniform and unchanging.

2. It grows exponentially (for example by replication).

3. It can regulate itself to stay stable in a changing environment.

4. It learns and remembers information about that environment. Darwinian evolution is an example of such learning over very long timescales: genes preserve useful adaptations to particular circumstances.

The two researchers say there are “sublyfe” systems that only meet some of these criteria, and also perhaps “superlyfe” that meets additional ones: lyfe forms that have capabilities beyond ours and that might look on us as we do on complex but non-living processes such as crystal growth.


“Our hope is that this definition frees our imaginations enough to not miss lyfe that might be hiding in plain sight,” says Bartlett. He and Wong suggest that some lyving organisms might use energy sources untapped here on Earth, such as magnetic fields or kinetic energy, the energy of motion. “There is no known life form that directly harnesses kinetic energy into its metabolism,” says Bartlett.

They say there might be other ways of storing information than in genetic strands like DNA. Scientists have, for example, already devised artificial ways to store and process information using two-dimensional arrays of synthetic molecules, like checkerboard arrays or abacuses. Bartlett says that the distinction between lyfe and non-lyfe might be hazy: being “alyve” might be a matter of degree. After all, scientists already argue about whether viruses qualify – although no one doubts their ability to wreak havoc with life.

He’s sceptical of the notion in Nasa’s working definition that lyfe/life can only arise and develop by Darwinian evolution. He says that even terrestrial organisms can shape their behaviour in ways that don’t depend on Darwin’s mechanism of random mutations coupled to competition for resources that selects advantageous mutations. “While Darwinian evolution does of course occur, I think it needs to be augmented into a larger picture of biological learning,” he says.

...

Bartlett and Wong also question whether lyving things must have sharp physical boundaries. After all, while we might imagine that we are simply everything inside our skin, we depend on other organisms within us: the microbiome of bacteria in our guts. And some philosophers argue that our minds extend beyond our brains and bodies, for example into our technological devices. “We argue for lyfe being a process that probably happens on the scale of whole planets,” says Bartlett. Walker agrees that “the only natural boundary for living processes is the planetary” – reminiscent of Lovelock’s Gaia hypothesis.

But without some confining boundary for the molecular ingredients, says Rothschild, all the components of a living system would get diluted away in its environment, like droplets of ink in water. And Kershenbaum says separate, bounded organisms are needed if evolution is Darwinian, because only then is there something else to compete with.

Walker thinks that in fact Bartlett and Wong don’t go far enough in trying to free ideas about life from terracentrism. Their notion of lyfe, she says, “is kicking down the road many of the problems pervasive in current definitions of life by coming up with a broader definition based on existing ones. It still shares many of the same basic problems. We don’t need new definitions for life. What we need is new theories getting at the underlying principles that govern living physics in our universe.”




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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: What is life? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26931339 - 09/12/20 07:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

sudly said:
I think it's pretty obvious he is.

Worms in children's eyes, cancerous growths,




Perhaps you will agree that the evidence is circumstantial and unrelated to the character of an entity that might grant a petition to enjoy the perks of being an animal. However your dissatisfaction can be noted...




The character of this entity seems to be rather ephemeral.

Quote:

In Christian heresiology, there have been historical claims that certain Christian sects worshipped the devil. This was especially an issue in the reaction of the early Church to Gnosticism and its dualism, where the creator deity is understood as a demiurge inferior to the actual, transcendent God




Divide and rule seems to be the strategy to me, create the devil and cast him in to hell for disobeying, create sin, adhere sin to the devil, and show contempt for sin. Thereby creating an enemy to hate, a way to control your populations and keep them in line. 

Quote:

By the Book of Revelation, Satan has become an apocalyptic beast, determined to overthrow god and heaven.

He was an adversary but not an ­active enemy. Throughout the Middle Ages Satan evolved into an aggressive, malignant force set on tormenting as many human souls as possible.

People were no longer seen as merely deceived by Satan, but in active collusion with him against God. By this time in European history, the devil no longer sat passively. Taking an active role, Satan is present in the world, stealing souls and recruiting people to do his bidding.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2018/09-10/history-devil-medieval-art-middle-ages/






--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931351 - 09/12/20 08:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

we are the the creator deity that is understood as a demiurge inferior to the actual, transcendent God who we become when we are in that lovely zone with the spirit shekina etc.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What is life? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26931438 - 09/12/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The Golden Calf, youth, the golden boy, is our favorite, undoubtedly.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931477 - 09/12/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

sudly said:
I think it's pretty obvious he is.

Worms in children's eyes, cancerous growths,




Perhaps you will agree that the evidence is circumstantial and unrelated to the character of an entity that might grant a petition to enjoy the perks of being an animal. However your dissatisfaction can be noted...




The character of this entity seems to be rather ephemeral.





Perhaps it is Sudly who is ephemeral.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26931507 - 09/12/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

In fact I would say that is a very selfish thing to do.  To equate the extent of god with one's own limitations.  Unacceptable !


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26931531 - 09/12/20 10:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

In designing a system it seems odd to me to add pitfalls and traps. Yes there are complicated ecosystems with complex relations, but a benevolent entity wouldn't make those mistakes.

You make a worm that has a lifecycle in children's eyes, fly larvae that burrow into flesh, mosquitos that carry disease etc.

If the world is designed by an entity, it was not thought out or fair or just or kind in my view.

A creating entity choosing dangerous systems over entirely good ones, is no better than the devil to me.

Most worms are fine eating leaf litter, so why make one that eats eyes?

Why do that? Why choose to? Why that specific diversity? Could the entity deflect blame and say evolution led to such diversity? If so, did they make the first life then let evolution do the rest? Was it a hands off creation? Or intentional evil?
Or even unintentional evil through incompetence?

Is such a creative entity benevolant and all knowing, or malevolent and undermining?

Such evil creation speaks for itself in my view.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931585 - 09/12/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Could the entity deflect blame and say evolution led to such diversity?




Of course.  I think you are falsely accusing the entity of being malevolent.  Real malevolence would be if you kept your child away from the worms and yet they ate his or her eyes anyway.  In this way the world seems fair, at least to me.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26931610 - 09/12/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You could move many kilometres and be unable to avoid them if you live in West or central Africa.

Quote:

Background

Loiasis, commonly known as "African eye worm," is an infectious disease caused by the nematode Loa loa, which is transmitted to humans via the bite from one of two female Chrysops deerfly species: Chrysops silacea and Chrysops dimidiata. The risk of infection is highest in the rainforests of West and Central Africa and during the rainy season, when the deerfly (or mango fly or mangrove fly, as they are commonly known) are most prevalent. It is estimated that 3-13 million people have loiasis. It is estimated that more than 10 million people have loiasis, with over 14 million people at risk for infection.

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/2500105-overview




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931626 - 09/12/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Harsh but perfectly fair.  :shrug:


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: What is life? [Re: sudly]
    #26931843 - 09/12/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

G-d does nothing without a purpose, and his ways are frequently hidden from humans.  G-d created all, the highest and the lowest.  G-d made every creeping thing on the earth after his kind, and G-d saw that it was good.  the Creator would not have instructed every creeping thing to multiply, had he not in his infinite wisdom provided them with food.  those worms exercise the inalienable rights conferred on them at the time, and they are rights which man has no power to curtail.  they are entitled to sustenance.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: What is life? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26931844 - 09/12/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Sure there's a
♫🎶 Band with a desperate desire for a change ♫🎶

But they're higher on the totem pole than I am and could probably explain things better about why it comes down to the Golden Calf to light the way.


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