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InvisibleRahz
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Evolution, religion probability and physics * 2
    #26889813 - 08/20/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A theory that many scientists have a problem with is evolution. Even non religious people suggest there's a lack of evidence and lack of natural complexity required to form life in the first place. Here's an interesting video where mathematicians discuss the mind boggling complexity it takes to "build" an organism or even a cell.



But it should also be pointed out that there is ongoing research into molecular formation in prebiotic environments. While even a cell that functions, collects and uses energy and reproduces is extremely complex, the components that form the cell are less so. The one thing all cells have in common is a membrane. Therefore if we want to produce life a membrane seems like one of the first components necessary to get to a point of function and reproduction.

Fatty acids can form in nature. A phospholipid is several fatty acids connected to a negatively charged phosphate group. Phospholipids form cell membranes and they could form in water with fatty acids and phosphate groups bonding. I haven't seen any information on spontaneous formation of phosphate groups but they're made in labs through chemical reactions. Phospholipids bonding together would logically tend to form sheets and/or sphereoids. A phospholipid sphereoid is basically a cell membrane. It's not functioning or reproducing but it does create a container in which energy exchange can take place and offers protection from the environment where the next step in protocell formation could take place.

If biology is overpoweringly complex, the Earth is a huge laboratory in which to put it in small terms that are easily understandable, can conduct trillions of trillions of experiments. An unfathomable number of chances for a cell to form. I have of course left out a number of steps, and gaps in knowledge prevents suggesting how cells actually emerge... but to say it's impossible is short sighted. Complexity of procedure is a human problem.

Evolution is considered a religion by many. What do you think?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26889885 - 08/20/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The way I look at it is to suppose that evolutionary theory is correct, but incomplete. I certainly do not feel design is required for living structures to come into existence; conversely, purely random chance doesn't do it for me, either.

It is very difficult to imagine how an RNA or DNA cell could have formed spontaneously, and no human has yet been able to do it, but this does not mean there is not a reasonable explanation. As you say, though, this is all extraordinarily complex stuff.

I do not think evolution is a religion by any means, and it explains a lot. I think where it packs its weakest punch is in its inability to say anything about mutations but that they are random, and selected for based upon environment. (Neo-Darwinian theory, incidentally, explicitly posits no connection between the genome and the environment. I feel this is clearly wrong.) Seemingly, we have to have a better understanding about the relationship between the genome and its environment, AND the degree of contingency involved in mutation, and therefore what eventually gets selected for.

But religion, no. It's highly scientifically useful and successful.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26890013 - 08/20/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution is materialism hashed out and studied.  I take smart peoples word on it and it makes sense.  Religion would probably have to refer to the practice and conscious movement of an appeal to the spiritual and fictitious. 

That being said I would use an experimental phrase and say that there are many who would be considered evolutionary fundamentalists who like the religious fundamentalists will lose their marbles if their belief in the fruits of evolutionary theory are not the dominant narrative.

Usually the assault comes from the religious fundamentalist where the empiricist retaliates.  Although I've seen the empirically determined attack a down to earth believer who was only minding his business.  So it happens both ways.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26890400 - 08/20/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

the membrane that catalyzes the formation of more membrane is what is needed to begin.
kind of a magic carpet that adds and exchanges chemicals and continues to catalyze more self production.
I guess this went on long enough to generate some contained spheroids and those with different chemistries could do different things.

mostly make more bubbles of water & gas and more bubbles of water and gas - eventually some interesting things begin to happen with amino acids and some gizmo-ish bubbles begin to generate DNA and RNA and everything goes balistically from there, then.

it can happen in air or no air it could happen with carbon or no carbon once a film can make more film and spheres form something can potentially become life.

all in the membrane


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26890487 - 08/20/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
A theory that many scientists have a problem with is evolution. Even non religious people suggest there's a lack of evidence and lack of natural complexity required to form life in the first place. Here's an interesting video where mathematicians discuss the mind boggling complexity it takes to "build" an organism or even a cell..........Evolution is considered a religion by many. What do you think?




.  IMO people misunderstand the role of science religion and “spirituality”

.  Is Buddhism a religion? According to Ajahn Brahm, the answer is:
“Yes…
for tax purposes!”
.  Actually Buddhism doesn’t take a position on ‘God’, or the particulars of ‘the self’;
it just denies that the self is: stable, unitary, autonomous, & permanent.
It is very careful about delineating this view, and nothing more.
It states its aim as only correcting misperceptions that cause suffering, not creating new systems of thought & conceptions to argue about.

.  But ‘God’ as ultimate cause is the domain of other religions. But of course the human mind can in actuality imagine no such thing as an “ultimate cause”, as our minds are made to deal with reality in order to help us survive and we can never encounter anything that has an ultimate and certain cause. Also space & time, have no limits or origins, anyone has ever experienced. So religion demands a suspension of critical thought.

.  Science explains individual things, like how internal combustion engines. work. This is how experiments are designed: to answer specific questions.
The modern fascination with “the Big Bang” harkens back to the days when science had to ‘kowtow’ to the Christian church and pope, and the need to get folks to believe in a dogmatic cosmology. So now we get people misunderstanding the role of science and thinking (the ‘theory’ of) evolution must account for everything. It accounts for antibiotic resistant bacteria very nicely, and for pesticide resistant insects, very nicely, and even predicts such things. It is not, and never was a theory of the origin of life.

.  Science is about reason, and religion demands a suspension of critical thought. To expect science to explain everything is to expect science to deny reason, as the idea of ‘ultimate causes’ is itself unreasonable. What people expect from science today is no different from what the church expected in Galileo Galilei’s time.

.  People want to have their cake and eat it too. But life forces choices. Taoism accepts that uncertainty, mystery, and paradox are inescapable aspects of feeling fully alive. People who follow (for example the 3 big middle eastern religions (in spite of their having a long history of persecuting one another) are all wedded to the idea of a vengeful paternal god that takes a personal interest in humans. And they expect this ‘God’ to take the uncertainty, mystery, and paradox out of life so that they can feel  safe, right, special, and justified, in their way of life and rituals. And now they expect that science should also justify them. Of course such people do not have the mental tools to gain perspective on the larger picture, of how minds function.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26891144 - 08/21/20 06:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think that if you're on the fence about evolution that you don't believe in it and are holding out for some other explanation that better fits what you want the natural world to look like.

We can see evolution, it's been observed in the lab and Lenskis E.coli experiment is a fine example.

For me it's a matter of if you do believe in evolution at all, you won't say or suggest it stopped or will at some point.

Like if you believe in gravity, there might be a more fundamental explanation underlying it, but you don't say gravity isn't real or undermine it with suggestions it might not be what it is.

Then again, evolution isn't about the origin of life but the origin of the diversity of life.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26891312 - 08/21/20 08:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

and gravity doesn't stop either.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26891909 - 08/21/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Actually Buddhism doesn’t take a position on ‘God’, or the particulars of ‘the self’;
it just denies that the self is: stable, unitary, autonomous, & permanent.
It is very careful about delineating this view, and nothing more.
It states its aim as only correcting misperceptions that cause suffering, not creating new systems of thought & conceptions to argue about.





The cycle of death/rebirth.  This is a transcendental assertion.  By subscribing to the transcendental authority of Buddism you are saved.  If you don't subscribe you suffer the wheel of life and death.  I don't see how this is fundamentally different from the big 3.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26891930 - 08/21/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Re: the OP

.  As Sudly & I point out, folks misunderstand, both science in general and the theory of evolution in particular. Evolution is not a theory that suggests life aims for some sort of perfection, that aims to produce morality, or consciousness. And it is not a theory of the origin of life.

.  On the one had as Sudly points out it has been observed ( and a movie made of it ) evolving, using bacteria in the lab. And it has made numerous predictions, that have been verified.

.  On the other hand, since the discovery of DNA, and horizontal gene transfer or epigenetics, and the discovery that that not all genes code for proteins, but that some instead work as switches to turn other genes off & on, and that much of the genome, seems to show the evidence of past interaction with viruses, the theory needs some tweaking.

.  Much may depend on the level at which we look at things. This is what happens between quantum physics and relativity. At one level the human body is composed of more bacteria than human cells (the micro-biome) and every human cell contains mitochondria, which has its own DNA, and probably had non-human origins.
.  In other words, even on the physical level, we are not clear cut individual identities, but rather more like 'chimera'. This is probably true for many animals, as mitochondrion are not unique to us. The proper functioning of the placenta also depends on viruses.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+the+placenta+and+virus&t=hk&ia=web
.  So the notion that animals are independent entities, is just a sort of convenient generalization or half truth. Ecology already hinted at this, before all these recent discoveries began to make such a conclusion more apparent. But the popular consciousness, of course is unaware of this, and busy identifying with all sorts of falsehoods.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26891965 - 08/21/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Actually Buddhism doesn’t take a position on ‘God’, or the particulars of ‘the self’;
it just denies that the self is: stable, unitary, autonomous, & permanent.
It is very careful about delineating this view, and nothing more.
It states its aim as only correcting misperceptions that cause suffering, not creating new systems of thought & conceptions to argue about.





The cycle of death/rebirth.  This is a transcendental assertion.  By subscribing to the transcendental authority of Buddism you are saved.  If you don't subscribe you suffer the wheel of life and death.  I don't see how this is fundamentally different from the big 3.




.  This is not my understanding of Buddhism. One does not "get saved" by accepting any sort of authority, quite the contrary, much time meditating is expected. And there are very well known quotes that reject this notion, by Buddha himself. If you are interested or curious just a little web browsing will verify this.
.  In any case the only reason Buddhism was referred to as part of my analysis, had to do with the issue of the consequences, of expecting 'ultimate explanations', and what the actual function of science is.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26891980 - 08/21/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Well that's part of it.  Meditate and get off the wheel.  I'm sure there are many other expectations that quicken the process.  Don't and ye shall suffer longer.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26891994 - 08/21/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So I don't see how this is asserted as being any less ultimate than the others.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26892016 - 08/21/20 03:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree somewhat about nearly 80% of what got written  here, all I want to say, is "You can't be serious."


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26892076 - 08/21/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You would have to say that I must be 20% serious.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26892089 - 08/21/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You sound clever with it, I’ll give you that - but on a whole something about it doesn’t sit well in my stomach.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (09/02/20 05:59 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892145 - 08/21/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution is a theory that suggests we evolved in our entirety.

Quote:

Proximate cause refers to the “how” questions related to animal behavior. Ultimate cause refers to “why” questions related to animal behavior. ... Proximate causes explain the genetic, developmental, and physiological processes responsible for animal behavior...




Quote:

To summarize: for the activities of living things, science can and does answer the why question and assigns a final cause. However, for non-living things science has not found the final cause concept to be useful and has eliminated it based on parsimony. Aristotle, his followers and disciples made the mistake of anthropomorphizing nature and assigning to it causes that are only appropriate to humans or, at best, living things.

https://www.quantumdiaries.org/2011/12/16/can-science-answer-the-why-question/




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26892182 - 08/21/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
You sound clever but uniformed.  That’s too bad.




:foreveralone:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26892420 - 08/21/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Well that's part of it.  Meditate and get off the wheel.  I'm sure there are many other expectations that quicken the process.  Don't and ye shall suffer longer.




Buddhism for the masses contains lots of beliefs that aren't really described in the core Buddhist teachings. So it depends on what you mean by "Buddhism". Monks go through a process of initiation where they are told some things which should be accepted should also be verified, none of which are nirvana while living or transmigration of a soul.

There are teachings which suggest one can lessen suffering by avoiding things that cause suffering (makes sense), but to live always entails some level of suffering.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26892588 - 08/21/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Shinzen distinguishes between pain and suffering. It seems a valid and useful difference and has to do with whether or not one resists sensations.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Shinzen , pain and suffering&t=hw&ia=web

- - - - - - - - - - - -

what these seeming weirdos are into and how they do it I don't have a clue

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=human suspension&t=hw&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

- - - - - - - - - - -

Jack Schwarz's total mastery of both pain, bleeding, & infection, also remains a mystery,
but it is very interesting,
although he was not able to teach it to anyone else as far as I know.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Shinzen's teachings however, very many have found very useful.




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892915 - 08/22/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

pain is an attribute of sensation - painful touch, painfully loud sound, painfully bright light, painfully cold ice...

suffering is a mental process with recalled body feelings that present as painful.  -->trauma


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26893452 - 08/22/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

yes the old redgreenvines you cant be serious from 2014

just that was hugely beneficial

like what that did

and there was one about meditation

etc etc.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26893459 - 08/22/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Buddhism for the masses contains lots of beliefs that aren't really described in the core Buddhist teachings. So it depends on what you mean by "Buddhism". Monks go through a process of initiation where they are told some things which should be accepted should also be verified, none of which are nirvana while living or transmigration of a soul.

There are teachings which suggest one can lessen suffering by avoiding things that cause suffering (makes sense), but to live always entails some level of suffering.




So is it accurate or not to say that the core Buddhist teachings contain the assertion of death/rebirth, the wheel of karma, life is suffering, and the objective being to get off the wheel of suffering through various movements in the real world.  Can this be said? 

Obviously I am no expert on Buddhism.  But Laughingdog is saying that in Buddhism as opposed to Christianity and other 2 Abrahamic religions it makes no claims about "god" as the ultimate cause of this world.  Well if the above is true then I don't see how that's the case.  Buddhism would be saying that we are subject to an alternative realm that places us on the wheel of karma.  Imo this implies it as ultimate and a "first cause".


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893543 - 08/22/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Eh, just read the suttas and see for yourself.  Though just reading alone will probably mislead you. GL!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893544 - 08/22/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In Buddhism, the term rebirth could refer to a series of citta (mind moments) in which during up to 3 seconds a series of citta cleave into one self, before yielding to the next expression of self-hood for another 3 seconds followed by the next with a rebirth each time creating a chain of succession within your own skin.

For continuity with prevailing Hindu society, no argument was made against the interpretation that this is about being reborn as a chicken or a queen or a worm. no support for it is in the Buddhist sutras either.

For continuity with prevailing Hindu society, no argument was made against the interpretation of Karma as affecting rebirth, but the analysis of Buddhism and karma points more to the fact that we are being constantly reborn and that karma is largely fairly instant action in context of what you judge you deserve.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26893630 - 08/22/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm forced to take your word for it.  Yet according to history.com which I assume isn't a credible source Buddhism follows the assertion but Hinduism buys into deities, reincarnation, and all that fun stuff.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26893824 - 08/22/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So is it accurate or not to say that the core Buddhist teachings contain the assertion of death/rebirth, the wheel of karma, life is suffering, and the objective being to get off the wheel of suffering through various movements in the real world.  Can this be said? 

Obviously I am no expert on Buddhism.  But Laughingdog is saying that in Buddhism as opposed to Christianity and other 2 Abrahamic religions it makes no claims about "god" as the ultimate cause of this world.  Well if the above is true then I don't see how that's the case.  Buddhism would be saying that we are subject to an alternative realm that places us on the wheel of karma.  Imo this implies it as ultimate and a "first cause".




Yes basically, but why would that suggest an alternative realm or first cause? The refutation of such ideas are why we have Buddhism instead of just Hinduism.

The Buddha refuted the idea that there was a creator God. He didn't explicitly say there wasn't... but who knows such things? Whether there is or is not a God is beside the point of Buddhism.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26893871 - 08/22/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent point, Rahz. And I think in an ideal society, whether or not there is a God or gods is beside the point of living one's life. Hunter-gatherers had a leg up on that.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893888 - 08/22/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Reincarnation go brrrrrrrr.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26893937 - 08/22/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So is it accurate or not to say that the core Buddhist teachings contain the assertion of death/rebirth, the wheel of karma, life is suffering, and the objective being to get off the wheel of suffering through various movements in the real world.  Can this be said? 

Obviously I am no expert on Buddhism.  But Laughingdog is saying that in Buddhism as opposed to Christianity and other 2 Abrahamic religions it makes no claims about "god" as the ultimate cause of this world.  Well if the above is true then I don't see how that's the case.  Buddhism would be saying that we are subject to an alternative realm that places us on the wheel of karma.  Imo this implies it as ultimate and a "first cause".




Yes basically, but why would that suggest an alternative realm or first cause? The refutation of such ideas are why we have Buddhism instead of just Hinduism.

The Buddha refuted the idea that there was a creator God. He didn't explicitly say there wasn't... but who knows such things? Whether there is or is not a God is beside the point of Buddhism.




Buddha's analysis actually goes deeper, than the notion of God, or a first cause.
The very notion of 'who you think you are', is attacked, and taken apart step by step in the sutras.
Like almost all other religions Buddhism split, up into many different sects after his death, and some of these sects, as is often the case with such split ups, simplified the teachings for the masses.
So you can find all sorts of stuff about Devas and multiple heavens, if you go searching for it.
The core of the teaching however deals with how to end suffering thru understanding and experiencing non-self, impermanence, & interdependence, at a level beyond just verbal & intellectual understanding.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26894235 - 08/22/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I just struggle to buy the idea that "taking yourself apart" reduces suffering.  Sure, within the confines of a proper context it may flourish but christ in the United States I find it hard to believe that "taking oneself apart" will reduce suffering.

Which is to say that if one is Buddhist they ought to flee to Tibet and really flourish within the tradition.  Otherwise, false assertions pretending to be the core tenets will take hold or you'll just ruin yourself in the US by trying to achieve liberation from the self.

It seems the doctrines of Buddhism are at odds with a savagely driven material culture in my view.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26894667 - 08/23/20 01:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

.  IMO you assume much knowledge and experience and familiarity with both Buddhism and esoteric & meditative traditions that you do not have. Without some background or some curiosity to learn about such matters, you will likely cling to the opinions you already have.
.  This would seem to make trading opinions on the subject, in this forum pointless, IMO.
Anybody with curiosity can find more info. on these matters on the web (as free books o &/ or pdfs., and free audio dharma talks, free movies on Youtube, and entire websites and blogs) than they could consume in may lifetimes, all free, and by respected experts, on the subject.
My 2 cents, (beyond what I already conveyed as accurately as possible) is totally unnecessary.


Edited by laughingdog (08/23/20 01:25 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26894715 - 08/23/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Buddhist stuff in my opinion is translated broadly, abagavabita kind of stuff, very open to interpretation.

Is it so bad to be reincarnated as a mango tree? That's one of my hopes, to feed a mango seed and become one with a tree when my passing time arrives.

To one day let my juicy fruits slip through some happy people.
:wutermelon:


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26895032 - 08/23/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

there has been lot destruction due to belief

like ice

thus I think we should educate about what life means in schools

what is the meaning of life or what is proper way to live

like 8fold path

what must we do and what not


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26895635 - 08/23/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I just struggle to buy the idea that "taking yourself apart" reduces suffering.  Sure, within the confines of a proper context it may flourish but christ in the United States I find it hard to believe that "taking oneself apart" will reduce suffering.

Which is to say that if one is Buddhist they ought to flee to Tibet and really flourish within the tradition.  Otherwise, false assertions pretending to be the core tenets will take hold or you'll just ruin yourself in the US by trying to achieve liberation from the self.




There's a perspective in the Western world of monastic Buddhism being the Buddhism to practice. If being a monk doesn't seem like a good idea, trying to achieve full enlightenment is not the best of ideas. Even in Buddhist regions, common people work on the eight fold path but aren't required to stick to a regime nor are they expected to attain supreme Buddhahood. At one point, and in practice it may still be so, common people were not allowed full access to the Pali canon.

I think certain things like understanding the 4 noble truths are attainable by most at some point in life. And for relevance they are considered universal truths so one doesn't need to be Buddhist or even have heard of it to gain that insight, which is just that the incessant desires of life don't bring lasting happiness and that the absence of desire does constitute happiness and that getting there is a matter of being a decent person (8 fold path). Perfection is unrealistic, but even the desire for perfection is one that can be done without.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (08/23/20 04:05 PM)


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26895802 - 08/23/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some context. Bhagavan as such and Buddha.

Quote:

Bhagavān (Sanskrit: भगवान्, Bhagavān) or Bhagwan(sometimes translated as "Lord") is an epithet for a deity, particularly for the deities of Krishna, Rama and other avatars of Lord Vishnu in Vaishnavism and for Lord Shiva in the Shaivism tradition of Hinduism. The term is used by Jains to refer to the Tirthankaras, particularly Mahavira, and by Buddhists to refer to Lord Buddha in India. In many parts of India and South Asia, Bhagavān represents the abstract concept of a universal God to Hindus who are spiritual and religious but do not worship a specific deity. Bhagavān itself is an acronym of the combination of the 5 elements of nature. Bha means Bhoomi (Earth), Ga means gaggan (Space/Sky), Va means Vayu (Air), A means Agni (Fire) and finally, N means Neer (Water)
________

Some tribes of India claim that the Sharad Baba Bhagavan is the creator of the universe. It also says that suffering and prosperity happens at the same time for different beings. It acknowledges the randomness of the world and says we should follow our dharma to do what little we can for the universe.
________

He who understands the creation and dissolution, the appearance and disappearance of beings, the wisdom and ignorance, should be called Bhagavān.

— Vishnu Purana, VI.5.78 

The same text defines Bhaga and provides the etymological roots as follows as translated by Wilson,

Knowledge is of two kinds, that which is derived from scripture, and that which is derived from reflection. Brahma that is the word is composed of scripture; Brahma that is supreme is produced of reflection. Ignorance is utter darkness, in which knowledge, obtained through any sense (as that of hearing), shines like a lamp; but the knowledge that is derived from reflection breaks upon the obscurity like the sun. (...) That which is imperceptible, undecaying, inconceivable, unborn, inexhaustible, indescribable; which has neither form, nor hands, nor feet; which is almighty, omnipresent, eternal; the cause of all things, and without cause; permeating all, itself unpenetrated, and from which all things proceed; that is the object which the wise behold, that is Brahma, that is the supreme state, that is the subject of contemplation to those who desire liberation, that is the thing spoken of by the Vedas, the infinitely subtle, supreme condition of Vishnu.
That essence of the supreme is defined by the term Bhagavat. The word Bhagavat is the denomination of that primeval and eternal God: and he who fully understands the meaning of that expression is possessed of holy wisdom, the sum, and substance of the Vedas. The word Bhagavat is a convenient form to be used in the adoration of that supreme being, to whom no term is applicable; and therefore Bhagavat expresses that supreme spirit, which is individual, almighty, and the cause of causes of all things. The letter Bh implies the cherisher and supporter of the universe. By ga is understood the leader, impeller, or creator. The disyllable Bhagaindicates the six properties, dominion, might, glory, splendor, wisdom, and dispassion. The purport of the letter va is that elemental spirit in which all beings exist, and which exists in all beings. And thus this great word Bhagavan is the name of Vásudeva, who is one with the supreme Brahma, and of no one else. This word, therefore, which is the general denomination of an adorable object, is not used in reference to the supreme in a general, but a special signification. When applied to any other (thing or person) it is used in its customary or general import. In the latter case, it may purport one who knows the origin and end and revolutions of beings, and what is wisdom, what ignorance. In the former, it denotes wisdom, energy, power, dominion, might, glory, without end, and without defect.





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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26895833 - 08/23/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
There's a perspective in the Western world of monastic Buddhism being the Buddhism to practice. If being a monk doesn't seem like a good idea, trying to achieve full enlightenment is not the best of ideas. Even in Buddhist regions, common people work on the eight fold path but aren't required to stick to a regime nor are they expected to attain supreme Buddhahood. At one point, and in practice it may still be so, common people were not allowed full access to the Pali canon.

I think certain things like understanding the 4 noble truths are attainable by most at some point in life. And for relevance they are considered universal truths so one doesn't need to be Buddhist or even have heard of it to gain that insight, which is just that the incessant desires of life don't bring lasting happiness and that the absence of desire does constitute happiness and that getting there is a matter of being a decent person (8 fold path). Perfection is unrealistic, but even the desire for perfection is one that can be done without.




Yeah that's for sure.  There must be a middle ground between saying to hell with it and achieving full Buddhahood.  Really it's the case with almost anything I guess.  I was only getting at the likelihood that Buddhism being a swim upriver in a culture that doesn't really entertain it.  Nevertheless it can be done. 

So I wonder if its even accurate to refer to Buddhism as a religion?  Being that it doesn't make any meta physical claims.  Seems like a way of life or a practice which brings me back to the likelihood of it being difficult in a culture that doesn't really enjoy it.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26896515 - 08/24/20 07:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Even though Buddhism isn't a religion is has been made one through the influence of Hinduism and other regional cultures. I don't live in a Buddhist region but I get the idea there's some wiggle room on reincarnation and the afterlife. Most people seem to need that.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26896692 - 08/24/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

exactly,
both easy metaphor and gentle smiling keeps the wheel of life turning.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26897812 - 08/24/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:sun:


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26898660 - 08/25/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Even though Buddhism isn't a religion is has been made one through the influence of Hinduism and other regional cultures. I don't live in a Buddhist region but I get the idea there's some wiggle room on reincarnation and the afterlife. Most people seem to need that.




.  Some "Buddhists" argue about  reincarnation  fiercely, others call themselves "Secular Buddhists".
.    In particular, there are battles about the ambiguous 12 fold (it even has various different numbers of steps in different versions) "chain of causation" or "dependent origination", or Paticca-samuppada. There is even a 3 lives interpretation, vs. a view that sees self arising and vanishing micro moment by micro moment.

.    Of course psychedelics may clarify the matter, ... or not ... apparently folks milage varies quite a bit ...

.    Historically before Buddhism, in Hinduism reincarnation, served the purpose of justifying the Indian caste system, which was about as nasty, (or perhaps in some ways nastier) as slavery (pre civil-war) in the USA.
.    So the idea of reincarnation is not just about new age Californians claiming they were someone famous in a past life, or Tibetans claiming someone is the reincarnation of a famous 'Lama'; but actually has a very dark history, just like the Christian notion of hell, and the Catholic Pope selling "indulgences" in medieval Europe.
.    So the idea of reincarnation, was used to justify cruelty, by Hinduism.
.    Historically, (as Buddhism came after Hinduism was established), - by denying an immortal soul, Buddhism aimed to end this practice, of justifying abuse, and raise folks consciousness.
.  Or more accurately  Gotama, Siddhartha's teachings were politically liberating as well as having profound philosophical and practical implications for ending suffering, on more than one level.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26898711 - 08/25/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:

People so seldom consider the political ramifications in the origins and development of religions.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26899291 - 08/25/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
:thumbup:

People so seldom consider the political ramifications in the origins and development of religions.




.  Yes, indeed Jesus was not only not a Christian, but was a Jew, and only a reformer.

.  And unlike the 3 monotheistic religions (we are used to in the West) Hinduism was more like, the Roman, Greek, and Egyptian religions in having many Gods, (except it has far more).

.  So when Buddhism aka Buddha gives no importance to such categories as: a deity, life after death in another realm, and the performance of sacrificial rituals to please such Gods, and the exclusion of certain castes, and women and; and on the contrary talks about 'interdependence' and 'cause and effect', he is both teaching and reforming.
.  In terms of psychology he is making individuals responsible for their own happiness.
.  In terms of sociology he is liberating women to some small degree.
.  Like Martin Luther, who said protestants should be free of the intermediary of the pope between the individual and God - Buddha is eliminating Brahmins and their rituals and animal slaughter from having any value what-so-ever - this was going against the whole social order of the time and of the country. This was no small thing, for a man to do, just by itself.
.  In terms of promoting thinking vs dogma, again this was a striking a blow for individual responsibility, and directly in opposition to the prevailing religions.
https://www.azquotes.com/author/37842-Gautama_Buddha/tag/belief
.  In terms of promoting reason he was perhaps the world's fist psychologist around 2500 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_psychology

Seems much of the teaching works simultaneously at different levels.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26913688 - 09/02/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I really enjoy this thread. Thank you for your thoughts.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: RedNucleus]
    #26913760 - 09/02/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I find the i-ching a consistently good source of inspiration (gave my copy away to wean a friend from Tarot cards), but I find the buddha's emphasis on practice of awareness the best gift.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26935663 - 09/14/20 05:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

cool thread.

humans are the culmination of millions (billions?) of years of survival testing, and current biological sciences are the culmination of a few centuries of intellectual activity that is distracted by egos, arrogance, and vested interests.

when viewed as a whole, the human organism exhibits properties that are impossible to account for as a synthesis of the behaviors of parts.  with each layer of complexity, new properties emerge that are not possessed by the parts - collective properties form.  living systems have learned more about the laws of physics, then most physicists can possibly imagine!

it is not understood how the first cells arose...if all cells arise from preexisting cells, how did the first cell come into being?

cells are like a watch made up of hundreds of wheels, gears and parts.  if you want to know how it works, you need to know how it is put together.  current understandings of biology seem to stop at the molecular level, but there is much phenomena taking place in the quantum realm!


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937792 - 09/15/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I have heard of quantum considerations and life only as regards photosynthesis.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26938436 - 09/16/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

what did you hear re: photosynthesis and quantum anything?


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26938961 - 09/16/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

just put the question in a search engine:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=photosynthesis+and+quantum+physics&t=h_&ia=web

and pick a link (or 2 ... or .... ) you like


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26939069 - 09/16/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

quantum biology (QB) studies the high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules.  it is the study of the systems that process energy and information  in the human body that are not biochemical, or hormonal, or of the nervous system.  in these communications, perception and action occur simultaneously in the body.  the substrate of this communication system is comprised of the fascia (connective tissues which are in all the cells throughout the body), genetic material, and most importantly, water.  what’s interesting about the question about how the first cell arose is each individual cell wall is composed of fascia, and the cells exist in a matrix of fascia, therefore, fascia must come into being before a new cell is formed.

nerves conduct impulses with a certain velocity.  such as, if something is thrown at you and about to hit your eye, you will blink, this is a reflex, a fast reaction that allows the body to protect itself, yet there is a delay at each synapse when the information is communicated as one nerve stimulates another. 

QB suggests there is another coupling between sensation and action that operates at speeds faster than what the nervous system is capable of.  this consciousness, arising in the fascia, can sustain high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules where perception and action can occur simultaneously.  a special kind of consciousness arises that uses the entire fabric of the body as a sensory atenna and a communication system for producing responses that most only have the oppurtunity to get rare glimpses of.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than humans can consciously know and access. it is a precognitive consciousness that you may hear atheletes talk about in peak athletic performances such as martial arts.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939138 - 09/16/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

do you recommend one of these for more info?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fascia%2C+communication&t=hk&ia=web


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939230 - 09/16/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I do not see how these are quantum though I do see wave and particle aspects in play.

my penny has not dropped in the quantum piggy bank brain yet.

I think it is a research funding scam, and sensationalist science news reportage.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939344 - 09/16/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

that's what some say about string theory

and some find the 'big bang' theory to also have serious problems

plenty of room for skepticism and uncertainty

sometimes these things get all tangled up


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939383 - 09/16/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

There was an excellent book released a few years ago, Life on the Edge: The Coming of Age of Quantum Biology by Johnjoe McFadden and Jim Al-Khalili, about all of the phenomena in biology that are coming to require the equations of quantum mechanics. Photosynthesis, heredity, cellular function, and other phenomena are coming to be seen as more complex than previously thought. I highly recommend the book, it's fabulous.

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Edge-Coming-Quantum-Biology/dp/0307986829/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=quantum+biology&qid=1600294716&sr=8-1


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26939393 - 09/16/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
do you recommend one of these for more info?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fascia%2C+communication&t=hk&ia=web




Albert Szent-Györgyi is the father of this science.  studying his work and that of his foremost students is a good place to start. this is a good introduction to the subject:
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/107555304322848931
the works of mae-wan ho are quite interesting, and this is a good introductory pdf on the subject.  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255996190_Super-Conducting_Liquid_Crystalline_Water_Aligned_with_Collagen_Fibres_in_the_Fascia_as_Acupuncture_Meridians_of_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine

as with quantum field theory, quantum biology is plagued by new agers misinterpreting the scientific interpretations and ascribing them to their own new agey belief systems.

the biological systems studied in QB exhibit phenomena that are usually associated with superconductors.  fascia is in a liquid crystalline state, and this is what  gives the human  organism its exquisite sensitivity and responsiveness.

thanks to the liquid crystalline state of fascia noiseless intercommunication is possible that enables the organism to function as a coherent, coordinated whole, not just a synthesis of its parts.  within the fascia, the total force acting on any individual atom at any time, and therefore its behaviour, will depend on the positions and activities of all the other atoms in the organism.  the relationship between fascia/collagen and water is the key element in understanding biological quantum coherence.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939609 - 09/16/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

thanks - looks interesting


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26940015 - 09/17/20 01:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Chance, examined rationally, is a non-existent agency; a concept, not an actuality in nature, and therefore does not describe how the material reality which is man’s universe actually manifest as “events” or “outcomes”.

It's a figment; a concept of man’s mind; a way he organizes his surroundings in order to subdue them in service to his own affirmation, promotion, propagation, and comfort (for individual man is the only rational Standard of Truth,and thus himself is that which must be affirmed by his own concepts). 

So it's useful, perhaps on an emotional level, in abstractly organizing our lives with respect to choices made on behalf of certain desired outcomes, but it cannot be rationally credited with having any real power; that is, causal power–over any event or series of events.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26940332 - 09/17/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like medley abbey road

enjoy


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26940410 - 09/17/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Chance, examined rationally, is a non-existent agency; a concept, not an actuality in nature, and therefore does not describe how the material reality which is man’s universe actually manifest as “events” or “outcomes”.

It's a figment; a concept of man’s mind; a way he organizes his surroundings in order to subdue them in service to his own affirmation, promotion, propagation, and comfort (for individual man is the only rational Standard of Truth,and thus himself is that which must be affirmed by his own concepts). 

So it's useful, perhaps on an emotional level, in abstractly organizing our lives with respect to choices made on behalf of certain desired outcomes, but it cannot be rationally credited with having any real power; that is, causal power–over any event or series of events.




Agreed that chance is placeholder term for all the chaos behind the scenes that we are not currently measuring.

I do not agree that since we are not measuring it, Schrodinger's cat must be simultaneously both dead and alive amidst the chaos in any particular instance; nor do I think this is where a topic like quantum mechanics to be meaningfully invoked.

In some ways this looks like an attempt to take a meta-mathematical approach to what is normally just called chaos or interference, while in other ways Quantum Mechanics is certainly helping uncover sub atomic mysteries, it does not seem to help significantly on the macro and biologic scales.

Note, while there is little consensus among neurobiologists about how the brain performs recognition, pursuing a quantum approach to the mystery of the energy consumed by neurons in the brain does not seem like something we are ready to solve meaningfully.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26941705 - 09/18/20 05:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: humans are the culmination of millions (billions?) of years of survival testing, and current biological sciences are the culmination of a few centuries of intellectual activity that is distracted by egos, arrogance, and vested interests.

when viewed as a whole, the human organism exhibits properties that are impossible to account for as a synthesis of the behaviors of parts.  with each layer of complexity, new properties emerge that are not possessed by the parts - collective properties form.  living systems have learned more about the laws of physics, then most physicists can possibly imagine!

it is not understood how the first cells arose...if all cells arise from preexisting cells, how did the first cell come into being?

cells are like a watch made up of hundreds of wheels, gears and parts.  if you want to know how it works, you need to know how it is put together.  current understandings of biology seem to stop at the molecular level, but there is much phenomena taking place in the quantum realm!




In a few centuries we've mapped a few billion years of evolution.
Witches were seen as of impossible complexity too.

To beat a wing does not mean to understand the action of ATP.
Evolution speaks nothing of the arrival of life, only the diversity thereof.

A watch can be understood.

You sound of upcoming quantum flapdoodlery. 

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: quantum biology (QB) studies the high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules.  it is the study of the systems that process energy and information  in the human body that are not biochemical, or hormonal, or of the nervous system.  in these communications, perception and action occur simultaneously in the body.  the substrate of this communication system is comprised of the fascia (connective tissues which are in all the cells throughout the body), genetic material, and most importantly, water.  what’s interesting about the question about how the first cell arose is each individual cell wall is composed of fascia, and the cells exist in a matrix of fascia, therefore, fascia must come into being before a new cell is formed.




Quantum biology is,
Quote:

Quantum biology is the study of applications of quantum mechanics and theoretical chemistry to biological objects and problems. Many biological processes involve the conversion of energy into forms that are usable for chemical transformations, and are quantum mechanical in nature.

Such processes involve chemical reactions, light absorption, formation of excited electronic states, transfer of excitation energy, and the transfer of electrons and protons (hydrogen ions) in chemical processes, such as photosynthesis, olfaction and cellular respiration.




Secondly, animal cells don't have cell walls.
Quote:

The cell wall is an outer protective membrane in many cells including plants, fungi, algae, and bacteria. Animal cells do not have a cell wall.




Quote:

thealienthatategod said: nerves conduct impulses with a certain velocity.  such as, if something is thrown at you and about to hit your eye, you will blink, this is a reflex, a fast reaction that allows the body to protect itself, yet there is a delay at each synapse when the information is communicated as one nerve stimulates another.




This is how synapses work..
Quote:

1. The cells shown here are called neurons. There are billions of neurons
throughout the body. The illustration in the circle is an example of the process
of neurotransmission.


2. If you hurt your foot, a message travels from your foot, via the neurons, to the brain.
For communication between neurons to take place, an electrical impulse triggers the
release of chemicals called neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are released into the
space between the two neurons. This space is called the synapse.

3. When neurons communicate, the neurotransmitters from one neuron are released, cross the synapse, and attach themselves to special molecules in the next neuron called receptors. Receptors receive and process the message, then send it on to the next neuron.

4. Eventually, the message reaches the brain. The brain then gives directions
about what to do next. In this case, the directions would be, “You hurt your foot on a tack. Sit down.”




Quote:

thealienthatategod said: QB suggests there is another coupling between sensation and action that operates at speeds faster than what the nervous system is capable of.  this consciousness, arising in the fascia, can sustain high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules where perception and action can occur simultaneously.  a special kind of consciousness arises that uses the entire fabric of the body as a sensory atenna and a communication system for producing responses that most only have the oppurtunity to get rare glimpses of.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than humans can consciously know and access. it is a precognitive consciousness that you may hear atheletes talk about in peak athletic performances such as martial arts.




Unsurprisingly,
Quote:

You might have only a few gigabytes of storage space, similar to the space in an iPod or a USB flash drive. Yet neurons combine so that each one helps with many memories at a time, exponentially increasing the brain's memory storage capacity to something closer to around 2.5 petabytes (or a million gigabytes).




Quote:

thealienthatategod said: Albert Szent-Györgyi is the father of this science.  studying his work and that of his foremost students is a good place to start. this is a good introduction to the subject:
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/107555304322848931
the works of mae-wan ho are quite interesting, and this is a good introductory pdf on the subject.  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255996190_Super-Conducting_Liquid_Crystalline_Water_Aligned_with_Collagen_Fibres_in_the_Fascia_as_Acupuncture_Meridians_of_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine

as with quantum field theory, quantum biology is plagued by new agers misinterpreting the scientific interpretations and ascribing them to their own new agey belief systems.

the biological systems studied in QB exhibit phenomena that are usually associated with superconductors.  fascia is in a liquid crystalline state, and this is what  gives the human  organism its exquisite sensitivity and responsiveness.

thanks to the liquid crystalline state of fascia noiseless intercommunication is possible that enables the organism to function as a coherent, coordinated whole, not just a synthesis of its parts.  within the fascia, the total force acting on any individual atom at any time, and therefore its behaviour, will depend on the positions and activities of all the other atoms in the organism.  the relationship between fascia/collagen and water is the key element in understanding biological quantum coherence.




You said it yourself,
Quote:

as with quantum field theory, quantum biology is plagued by new agers misinterpreting the scientific interpretations and ascribing them to their own new agey belief systems.




And finally I'll leave you with this,

Quote:

Amidst the plethora of flawed, implausible, and wasteful research on acupuncture and Chinese medicine, a 2002 study on the “Relationship of Acupuncture Points and Meridians to Connective Tissue Planes” stands out as the height of factual neglect. In it, Helene Langevin and Jason Yandow of the University of Vermont’s College of Medicine claim to have matched real anatomical structures with the elusive acupuncture “meridians.” It should be noted that the widely accepted term “meridian” is a metaphor coined by George Soulié de Morant (1878 – 1955), a French delegate to China, and has no semantic relationship with the original Chinese word.2 The original designation is the composite word jing luo (經絡), which literally means “channel-network.” The term has been translated to English as chinglo channels, channels, vessels or more commonly, meridians. Debunking this study is of particular relevance because it is often used by acupuncturists and a wide range of other CAM providers to legitimize the meridian lore. The principle author, Helene Langevin, is a CAM celebrity and a member of the “Scientific Committee” of the International Fascia Research Congress, an organization dedicated to the “emerging field of Fascia Studies.” She is an Associate Professor of Neurology and the Director of the Program in Integrative Health at the University of Vermont; and has conducted multiple NCCAM-funded studies on the role of connective tissue in chronic pain, acupuncture and manual therapies.

This is what Langevin and Yandow wrote in their 2002 paper’s abstract:

Acupuncture meridians traditionally are believed to constitute channels connecting the surface of the body to internal organs. We hypothesize that the network of acupuncture points and meridians can be viewed as a representation of the network formed by interstitial connective tissue. This hypothesis is supported by ultrasound images showing connective tissue cleavage planes at acupuncture points in normal human subjects. To test this hypothesis, we mapped acupuncture points in serial gross anatomical sections through the human arm. We found an 80% correspondence between the sites of acupuncture points and the location of intermuscular or intramuscular connective tissue planes in postmortem tissue sections.3

What makes this study fundamentally flawed, despite its scientific appearance, is the fact that it is the embodiment of what I have elsewhere called “medical Orientalism.” By this term I mean a depiction of Eastern healing arts by Western authors, academics and researchers that is not generated from historical facts or reality, but from stereotypes that envision approaches to health and disease in the East as fundamentally dissimilar to the West. The historical facts do not support the fascial-planes hypothesis, and rather indicate that the Chinese concept of jing luo is quasi identical to the Greek notions of phlebes (blood vessels in general) and neura (ligaments, nerves, etc.). Indeed, as the classics scholar Elizabeth Craik has convincingly argued:

Chinese medicine resembles Hippocratic theory in that anatomical structures and orifices (perhaps better described as systems and processes) are seen in terms of the channels which link them to one another and to other areas of the body. Greek phlebes and Chinese mo are significant in physiology (normal–carrying blood and pneuma or qi) and pathology (abnormal–carrying noxious matter, inducing disease). Their supposed paths do not exactly coincide, but several are broadly similar (and more similar to each other than either is to the observed paths of arteries and veins). In particular, the route of the Chinese du channel (“governor vessel”) from spine to back of head carrying life force is similar to that of the Greek vessel carrying vital myelos. And the vessel centrally placed in the forehead in some Greek accounts is similar to the anterior continuation of the Chinese du channel. Furthermore, the parallel pairs of vessels symmetrically placed on either side of the du channel correspond with the parallel pairs of vessels postulated in many Greek accounts… Originally in China there was no elaborate system of acupuncture points (for example, twenty-eight points on the du channel) with measurements, any more than in Hippocratic practice. In sum, we see similar channels, with similar paths and similar contents, the focus of similar treatment for similar medical conditions.4

The elusive and mysterious meridian system seems therefore to be nothing more than a rudimentary and prescientific model of blood vessels and nerves. Langevin and Yandow’s conceptual model can thus be seen as historically unfounded. It is also implausible because postulating an anatomically precise “medical gaze” for ancient and medieval physicians is anachronistic. As one reader (Dr. Le Petomaneon) pertinently commented on my previous post, The Cargo Cult of Acupuncture, this postulation “begs the question of how preindustrial Chinese researchers could have created an accurate map of meridians without the advanced technology it has taken for anyone to have a remotely credible claim to have detected them.” In fact, as Michel Foucault (1926-1984) has pointed out, it is only in 18th-century Europe that the body became something that could be mapped with precision.5 For millennia prior to that, anatomical structures that lay below the threshold of the visible were conceptualized according to mythology, astrology, and other figments of the imagination. Consider, for instance, the 17th-century medical manuscript by Yang Jizhou (杨继洲) called the Zhenjiu Dacheng (针灸大成), where the medical and astrological narratives are inseparable. This work, which is incorrectly translated as the Great Compendium of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, describes a medical gaze that is not directed towards the body and its anatomy, but towards the Heavens and astrology.6 The Zhenjiu Dacheng and other prescientific manuals of medicine in China are not exploratory guides about the fascial planes or other anatomical structures; they are manuals of medical astrology. This is why the original designations of the principal meridians (e.g., tae yang, jue yin) represent the angular position (hour angle) of the Sun (Table 1), and not the “physiological functions thought to be specifically related to each,” as Langevin and Yandow inaccurately state. The historian Paul Buell has argued that even the Yellow Emperor’s Inner Canon (黄帝内经, Huangdi Neijing, 400-200 BC), the formative book of Chinese medicine, is as much an astrological compendium as a medical text.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-and-fascial-planes-junk-science-and-wasteful-research/




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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26941754 - 09/18/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like your signature

it looks good begun exciting

not the way it looks after a suicide or during it...

I mean what you see depends on how you look so when one makes it less and less like becomes a less and less successfull viewer and gardener it becomes more boring and less exciting


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941756 - 09/18/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

just a different angle on the same truth (philosophy(


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941766 - 09/18/20 06:00 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Nature is metal:rockon:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26941798 - 09/18/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

good counter pointing.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26941931 - 09/18/20 08:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
I like your signature

it looks good begun exciting

not the way it looks after a suicide or during it...

I mean what you see depends on how you look so when one makes it less and less like becomes a less and less successfull viewer and gardener it becomes more boring and less exciting




Romeo and Juliet's suicide is considered a beautiful tragedy for some reason because they practically pined themselves to death over each other the same way someone might consider suicide over unrequited love.

So now I have the opportunity to perceive his signature as a requited love affair, which I agree with you is way more exciting.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26942316 - 09/18/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

if you take a watch apart to study how it works, and then put it back together, and someone were to ask you, which part of the watch tells the time? - what would you say?

as i stated before the human organism displays properties that cannot be accounted for as a synthesis of the behavior of the parts.  the current fashion in mainstream science, of taking things apart, makes accepting properties of systems as a whole difficult, because this kind of look points to another “force” that might be outside the current sets of laws.

it starts with water, the water in a cell is nothing like the water in a glass.  humans do not know how an organism develops from a single cell to its mature form!  the answer does NOT go like this: life obeys laws of chemistry and physics, and thanks to this, life can be reduced to machinelike processes that involve reading a blueprint and translating it into structure.  just because a process occurs at one level does not mean these same processes operate similarly at other scales. 

sure the word Ch’i terrifies most scientists.  call it whatever you want, but it is a force that encompasses whole system properties and essential communications that function in a continuum environment.  the nature of these whole system processes is what directs the formation of structures and their functional integration.

one of my favorite quotes from Albert Szent-Györgyi:

“In scientific circles, a vitalist is far worse than a communist.”


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26942508 - 09/18/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

wrong

the hands on the face of the watch tell the time

as for the rest of your vitalist propaganda, it is completely inconsistent and untrue.

Cause and effect is not just ball and stick or ball to ball or stick to stick linkage. everything interpenetrates using complex branching and coalescing as suits the situation, scientists know that. I am afraid you have been storing bad attitude in your DNA (sic), converting every post from an idea to political opposition to knowledge.

If I had status I would ban you from the forum.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26942522 - 09/18/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

how can the hands on the face of the watch tell the time without all the other parts telling the time?  you read the hands on the face of the watch to tell the time, but you need the whole watch to read the time.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26943523 - 09/19/20 04:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

you have success almost more than anyone else and is right about everything, ban (alien)


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26943526 - 09/19/20 04:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

and had success more importantly because where does that take one compared to not

it's about doing as good as possible so we are our behaviour (our time) as good as possible later and now


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26943534 - 09/19/20 04:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
ban (alien)




That reminds me of a period in technical college when a redneck took exception to my English accent. Yes, he was still harboring resentment against the British 200 years after the revolution.

Personally I view this alien as quite knowledgeable even if the quirky side is rather pronounced.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26945555 - 09/20/20 06:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You read the time..

What properties do you speak of?

Mitosis and meiosis are a good start in regard to learning about cell reproduction.

Do you consider the sun a machine?

Everything is a machine like process.

You could just outright say, "maybe there are unknowns in quantum mechanics yet to be discovered and until then I'll believe that's the case".

What's the problem with an eloquent process resolving in lives activities?

I view chakra as electromagnetic communications between vital organs and individual human enterprise.

A vitalist doesn't believe things are naturally bound..


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly] * 1
    #26945670 - 09/20/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

a crisis in perception takes place when applying concepts of an outdated mechanistic worldview to a reality that is not understandable in those terms.  the problem goes to the very heart of the human conceptualization of the nature of reality.  when anyone is willing to strive to see beyond their small piece of the puzzle of nature, they are given the opportunity to see glimpses in a broader context.  practical and logical reductionism needs to be integrated to an empirical holism continuum. 

strictly speaking in terms of reductionism, life is the inevitable outcome of a sequence of linear cause and effect events.  there are simple and profound flaws in this reasoning.  an illusion arises when observing life at a microscopic level, because it is only a parcel of the whole.  at this level, the molecular machinery of the body and life appear to be a machine-like process.  these machine-like processes are successful at describing inquiries within this limited area, but sucessful from this view only.  they do not deserve credit for establishing order on every level.

a life force is what encompasses the whole systems properties of the human organism.  the human organism functions in a continuum environment, and this life force is what directs the formation of whole system processes and their functional integration.

a specific example of a property within the human organism that cannot be accounted for as a synthesis of the behaviour of the parts is the biological coherence that arises from connective tissues.  studying the solid state semiconductor crystalline properties of the connective tissues and the cytoskeleton, and the electrical currents generated by a flow of protons may lead to a more complete understanding of biological energetics than what currently exists.  what emerges is a picture of how sensory information can produce stable large-scale coherent  vibrations that communicate regulatory information that is responsible for the integration of function taking place at various levels within the human organism.  it is a gross oversimplification to view the nervous system as the basic control system of the body, because it leaves out the whole-systems integated communication system described above.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26945776 - 09/20/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

On the one hand you deny the explanations of science (while using a computer, incidentally),
but on the other hand, you  want an explanation apparently called "vitalism" by some, or a mysterious force that can't be measured.

But you are still stuck with making a linear explanation of "something" or rather collection of processes that, don't fit in the linear language box you're trying to stuff them into.

A scientist or mathematician can describe the path of a 90mph fast ball, but not throw one, and a pitcher throw one but not describe the path with a formula. Who is right?
Silly question, right? and does the ball care?

So we have with science discovered vitamins, put them in pills and can 'cure' some deficiency 'diseases', and this is great --- but if we think about it, there are probably some nutrients, we need, that have not yet been identified, that are already in certain natural foods. (So the wise person eats their veggies, and not hostess twinkies.) Anyway that not all nutrients have been discovered, does not make all science wrong, or all its methods wrong, even if they seem plodding and slow to average folks, or reductionist to those with a slightly bigger vocabulary.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26945989 - 09/20/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

we CAN measure this “life force”,  it’s just not fully understood.  the connective tissue continuum has the ability to generate and conduct vibrations, that occur as phonons, magnetic fields, electromagnetic fields, electrical signals, light, heat, and solitons.  the consequence of the transmission of these vibratory signals is that a unity of function is imparted across the whole organism. 

i did not say that mechanisms that drive cellular metabolism (for example) are wrong or deny them, i merely pointed to the fact that they are limited in their understanding.  the customary divisions of the body into molecules, cells, tissues, organs, ect. separates the study of life into sub-disciplines such as molecular biology, cell biology, pharmacology, physiology, genetics, ect. and this is what slows the comprehension of universal cross-disciplinary integrating principles that have to exist for the human organism to maintain its function and unity across all levels.  dividing the human organism into mind and body domains is perhaps the most confounding and confusing of all.

it's clear that cause and effect are elusive because of multiple correlations, but no properties within the human organism can be uncorrelated becuase they are all demonstrably interlinked, and not interlinked by single chains, but through an exceptional number of criss-crossing pathways.  these concepts have incredible far reaching implications for philosophical inquiries about consciousness, so of course just like consciousness, they can be quite elusive, and of course are an unsolved mystery. 

"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought."
--Albert Szent-Györgyi


on the use of technology - even select Amish use computers.  from what i understand of their use of technology, is that if it assists their life in a way that helps bring them closer to the existence of G-d, then it is seen as good and is permitted.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26946065 - 09/20/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well if you want you could study chi gung or qigong
but just talking about it will accomplish nothing in your own body / mind.
And if you aren't yet practicing, results may take quite a while to manifest.

The heart of these practices is simply learning to stand still ...
for hours, not a misprint !

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kumar+frantzis+tai+chi+



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26946069 - 09/20/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

what kind of experiments would you devise to better resolve small and large scale wave propagation and resonance fields.

I know that this is an understudied area so far but am confident that a lot of work will be done in it as we achieve better miniaturization (nanorobotics), and faster hi resolution visualization techniques.

this should enable studies in which cerebral field behavior can be recorded in detail and correlated with known experiential facts - all relative to samples involving reproducible tests and controls.

In the meantime I would recommend self-tempering the criticism of others while refining your own theories, and devising experimental exploration  in this area.

so far you sound like a nutty zealot ready to hop on an apocalypse to  the end of days.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26946297 - 09/20/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

studying the human organism with nanobots, is the equivalent of trying to understand how dynamic systems on planet earth work with a microscope.  progress has been slow for a variety of reasons, including a tendency to ignore anomalies, the tendency to ask the wrong questions and look for answers in the wrong places, the tendency to create disciplinary and political boundaries, and the tendency to conceal information by creating incomprehensible nomenclatures.  as observational methods become more refined the focus just shifts from one component to another, and as increasingly smaller fundamental units of life reveal themselves, more information is yielded, but the original goal remains elusive.  scientific prowess is limited largely to the level of society’s operational perception.

Qigong and martial arts are quite powerful for the development of these energy infrastructures and the development of human nature.  they promote a moral sensitivity, athletic abilities, and a unique degree of unitive awareness.  I have been a student of qigong for 20 years, and a teacher of it for the past ten.  I have also been practicing judo, taekwondo, aikido, and karate for 15 years, and in my early twenties had the opportunity to compete and spar semi-professionally.  it is through the altered states of consciousness and the development of Ch’i  that i learned to access from these practices that I become inspired to study the origins of sensory awareness.  when the mind can be freed from distracting thoughts, the senses become capable of functioning with a new scope and clarity.

the heart is by far the strongest EM oscillator of the physical body, and if one builds themself to transmit  large signal power over a broad range of frequencies, many entities will be able to absorb this radiation. this set of radiations is broadcast by the sender, and the radiation generates a biological activity in a receiver's body.  there is a maximum positive interaction if like fixed-polarization occurs and negligible interaction for indifferently coupled fixed-polarization.  the soviets performed a sympathetic resonance experiment where they removed two animal hearts , and kept their functions stable through a support system.  the hearts were then placed at the two foci of an elliptical mirror so that any radiation leaving one heart would be reflected from the mirror to focus on the other heart and vice-versa.  initially, they had different rhythms and phasing, but after ten minutes they had perfect synchronization of rhythm and phase. 

humans can attune to the frequency transmission of others, especially with heart to heart interactions.  the audience of a truly great teacher, such as Jesus or Krishna, or one who has manifested Christ consciousness, does not need to understand them intellectually to have a strong response probably due to the high power “love” radiation signal that they broadcast.  the higher dimensional construct of the body’s mainframe is thought to be the heart, and while an individual is accessing a coherent heart oscillation (revealed by ECG data) they are capable of influencing properties of water and DNA.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26946459 - 09/20/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

what you call energy infrastructures are imaginary


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26946487 - 09/20/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary?

how is it that just because something doesn't conform to established ideas about how the world normally works that it is considered imaginary or impossible?


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26946606 - 09/20/20 05:50 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

It’s not that it’s impossible, it’s that it’s not very probable.  Ive seen and felt - ie: experienced what could be termed “energy infrastructure”, but it was not independent from the imagery of my mind & the hallucinogenics that influenced it.
To borrow a term from the psychonaught wiki jargon - sounds like 8a & 8b geometry.  I do not believe them to be “real” in the same sense that dreams aren’t real.  Potential for the human mind to experience this phenomena?  Yes, but similarly to the way one experiences a psychedelic experience or dream.  How do we know they aren’t real? via careful Discernment & experimentation. 
They are private experiences, ie, only seemingly real to the observer whilst happening.  It is like a diaphanous & beautiful empty play of illusion imputed upon reality by the organism.  Without the organism - no beautiful play of illusion. Ie-  It’s not an actual structure that can be observed “outside” the mind.  In other words - When you die, it dies with you - ie - does not remain to be seen by others after the body that has given rise to the experience has perished.  Though, even after you die, others may still potentially experience a similar thing, if the right conditions are at hand, due to having the same form as you.

Sort of got tangled up in that for a moment, but I think I delivered my message nonetheless.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (09/20/20 06:00 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26947147 - 09/21/20 02:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You're overlooking modern dynamic biomechanics in favor or archeic paranormal pseudoscience.

It's like someone showed you a plasma ball lamp and told you that's what makes you you and then it blew your friggin mind open and you never recovered..

You're describing nerves and action potentials..

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: studying the solid state semiconductor crystalline properties of the connective tissues and the cytoskeleton, and the electrical currents generated by a flow of protons may lead to a more complete understanding of biological energetics than what currently exists.  what emerges is a picture of how sensory information can produce stable large-scale coherent  vibrations that communicate regulatory information that is responsible for the integration of function taking place at various levels within the human organism.  it is a gross oversimplification to view the nervous system as the basic control system of the body, because it leaves out the whole-systems integated communication system described above.




We integrate environmental information and extrapolate an understanding!



The nervous system doesn't just 'control the body', it is our entire being. It is the integrated system and you're a blind ass if you can't see it.

P.s. Sorry @b ass! But is required to say here


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26947247 - 09/21/20 06:18 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

All good :cool::thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #26947287 - 09/21/20 06:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
how do you draw conclusions about what is real and what is imaginary?

how is it that just because something doesn't conform to established ideas about how the world normally works that it is considered imaginary or impossible?



when you observe your mental contents, you may note among them sensations arise and pass away.
some of them you are familiar with, they confirm your expectations of posture and contact, some sounds are reassuring for the presence or absence of activities around you, etc.

All of those which you do not parse into known aspects of your world seem to be 'energies'.

You may even engage synesthesia to colorize these 'energies' or you may extrapolate these 'energies' into lines tracing the paths of sensations into plausible structures. (this is what all of us do when we are stoned)

All of this is possible because of what we can call imagination, or simply "WOW, man, did you feel that? it went right though my neck..."

The mind can be turned to the purpose of tracing ambient sensation into paths of energy in the world, even if all it is physically is a few moments of 'abstract' sensation (unrecognized cognition).

Separate from this is the rich experience of prana or psychic energy from breath that can fill your body with light and make everything sparkle as if inner light is breaking through the 'cracks' of reality.

This also is imaginative extension and infill of mental contents using the mental resonance of concentrative absorption. Even though millions of people have experienced these 'energies' does not mean that they are external or objective reality; they are reality, but it is the inner reality, of the mind completing perception using abstractions from sensory experience that are strong momentary evidence that something is happening but it does not quite confirm expectations for known objects and activities in the world, including the body.

Acupuncture meridians are a great example of cultural acceptance in China and Japan (e.g.) of the formalization of a working system (of active points along lines) in which somatic responses to stimulation produces anesthesia or healing. This is usually taken to be proof of an alternate energy action in the body which science cannot detect.

Science has not yet looked at Acupuncture systematically, however when it is put into the lab along with real time high resolution brain scans, what we will most likely find is that when points are stimulated the resulting cerebral cortical field propagation of energy intersects at several locations in a traditional interference pattern with very high peak energy points and some low energy areas. the crisscross points of energy (like the intersecting rings a few raindrops would make on water) from afferent sensory signals cause efferent neural excitation responses. This can explain the magic of acupuncture (without resorting to fake quantum gibberish), and also the key to understanding engram formation and perceptive recognition of experience.

No Ethereal energies are required, but our minds can whoop up a picture for them at any moment's notice.


--------------------
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OfflineLion
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26947294 - 09/21/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Excellent, fascinating post!

I've done acupuncture quite a bit without really having any contextual framework for how it works, aside from hearing some things about body meridians. One acupuncturist mentioned to me a meridian that includes neck, shoulders, knees and gut. After that I began to notice that certain foods did, in addition to making my gut taut and bloated, cause my knees, back and elsewhere to tighten considerably. I'd always approached such aches and inflammation as something to be resolved by stretching, but now I understand it really has to do with diet as much or more than movement. That's a pretty interesting perspective shift.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26947457 - 09/21/20 09:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

my description obviously wasn't very good if you think i'm describing the nervous system.

connective tissue consciousness precedes neurological consciousness.  it is a precognitive consciousness.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than we can consciously know and access.

the works of Dr. Joie Jones disovered that stimulating vision realated accupuncture points on the foot activate neural circuits in the occipital lobes, but the stimulation happens at a rate that is too rapid for the signal to be conducted and processed by nerve impulses.  the velocity is faster then, and preceds what the nervous system is capable of.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26947500 - 09/21/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the energy i'm talking about in the connective tissues isn't considered to be a metaphical energy.

there are many vibrations and spectrums that the eyes and ears are not capable of consciously tuning into, due to programmed consciousness filters that are built in to suit the environment of life survival.  the proprioceptors within the connective tissues are aware of all vibrations because they are in direct interaction
with the vibration/matter, but typically, humans are not aware of this on a conscious level.

a neurophysiologist look for consciousness  in the operation of interconnected nerve networks.

cell biologists look for consciousness in the patterns of proteins deposited in arrays of micro-tubules or other cytoskeletal elements within neurons and other cells.

neurochemists looks for consciousness in the patterns of neurotransmitters and neurohormones.

quantum physicists and quantum psychologists looks for consciousness as an emergent property of matter, space and waves.

may be its most productive to view consciousness as a synergistic, cooperative, or collective property of a system that has emerged from a multilayered set of subsystems - this is the system that i am speaking of that ariese for the connective tissues.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26947557 - 09/21/20 10:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...connective tissue consciousness precedes neurological consciousness.  it is a precognitive consciousness.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than we can consciously know and access.
...




What does it take in?
How does it store?

Critical thinking is what I am missing here.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26947745 - 09/21/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Some studies of acupuncture find it no different from placebo.
It never did anything for me.
All those needles force one to lie still,
and leave one very vulnerable,
perfect conditions for hypnotic self suggestion to go to work.

The true test, for mysterious body energies & mental powers, would be long lasting healing effects. Wim Hof claims some such effects, from his method, but does not talk of chi as far as I know. He & his followers do stay in ice water for long periods. And he encouraged scientific studies of his method--(see the links below for details). So some effects and processes and abilities of body and mind are not yet understood by science.
It remains for the individual to determine what is worth trying and what is a scam, and a BS type theory.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wim+hof+immune+system+study&t=h_&ia=web


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26947790 - 09/21/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

they do use acupuncture effectively for anesthesia in china.



A child, fully awake and comfortable, undergoing open heart surgery for repair of a congenital ventricular septal defect under acupuncture anesthesia in a hospital in Shanghai.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Acupuncture-anesthesia-for-open-heart-surgery%3A-and-Cheng/9786bb9ddc64ab4503d491eaf69cf6236b31d66b

the stimuli on specific points kicks the brain into an anesthetic response, shutting down sensations of pain and discomfort.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26947841 - 09/21/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Hypnosis is involved perhaps in a culture where acupuncture is widely accepted.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26947947 - 09/21/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well, acupuncture has very objectively helped mobility and pain in three dogs I have had when in waning years, and my Mom the equestrian says it is effective for horses all the time. I don't think anything mystical is going on, but rather a subtle reorientation of the body's electric field, leading to positive neurological effects.

So I can tell you it works for nonhuman mammals. I have never tried it.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26947992 - 09/21/20 03:23 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Strange,
seems it remains a mystery,
as animals would not be suggestible.

There may be a big difference depending on who the practitioner is.
I don't know, though.

In any case unlike doing Qigong, (if it works), it makes healing dependent on another.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26948276 - 09/21/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I'm going to guess that quite early on, people developed something like acupressure for headaches.
after some specialization, the healers, wizards, or whatever would experiment finding that if you massage two different spots that some activity in a third area, zone, or organ would occur.
to find the interactions of more than 3 spots you would need to use 3 hands or some tools to take the place of fingers.
For that stones could work - they would have found that thorns could work well too.
In this way I think acupuncture was born. passed down by word of mouth.
As new combinations of points got unwieldly to remember this way I think they brought in the meridians as a visual mnemonic.
Later on some potheads (thousands of years ago) with alex grey types of visions made up the stuff about energy in the mnemonic meridians.

So now we have an odd lore that used to be a science of indirect multipoint stimulation healing with thorns that got transmuted through history as a magic energy knowledge.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26948347 - 09/21/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)



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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26948807 - 09/22/20 05:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...connective tissue consciousness precedes neurological consciousness.  it is a precognitive consciousness.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than we can consciously know and access.
...




What does it take in?
How does it store?

Critical thinking is what I am missing here.




life is too rapid and subtle to be explained by neurological and biochemical processes.  the neurological bandwidth of consciousness - it’s processing and storage capabilities - is a reduced version of the sensory bandwidth.  the senses, which humans are unconscious of many, perform the job of breaking down the continuum of reality into tiny, discrete pieces that can be analyzed by the sensory system's receptors. 

electrons and protons are carriers of energy and information, and electricity and magnetism are the basis of life.  the bulk of the human organism is composed of proteins, and energy and information is propagated through this protein matrix in the form of vibrations and electrons.  the sensory receptors, within the protein matrix, communicate this information through the whole organism simultaneously, and then it is reassembled in the brain in a coherent form again.  this is what I meant when i said it precedes neurological consciousness.

the soliton - a collective excited state - is capable of carrying a large amount of energy over a long distance - in this case within the protein matrix, without loss, and this is how the sensory bandwidth of consciousness communicates and stores this info.

quantum electronic biology appears anomalous from a logical scientific perspective until...it’s not.  until then, mechanists will continue to view the human organism as a complex chemical-mechanistic machine.


Edited by thealienthatategod (09/22/20 07:35 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26948910 - 09/22/20 07:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
...

the solution - a collective excited state - is capable of carrying a large amount of energy over a long distance - in this case within the protein matrix, without loss, and this is how the sensory bandwidth of consciousness communicates and stores this info.

quantum electronic biology appears anomalous from a logical scientific perspective until...it’s not.  until then, mechanists will continue to view the human organism as a complex chemical-mechanistic machine.




So you do not think it is important to actually have a way of storing information as long as you can use the words?

This is a deceptive skill you are exercising here, or poor use of language to say what you mean.

Bringing in quantum vague terms does not wrap it up very nicely, especially since, so far, storage of vast amounts of detailed information or patterns is not being done using anything quantum.

magnetic tape stores bits or relative intensity in a way that can be played back, same for magnetic and laser disks.
RAM can store a pattern and spill it back out to connected components.

Cells do not do this, and parts of cells do not do this.

the one term in your comment that might lead somewhere "- a collective excited state -" was immediately crushed in importance by switching to some partly referenced idea about energy and distance and then mangled by talking about protein matrix (presumably subcellular again).

Does this mean you are thinking that each neuron is a tape recorder, because it is not a reasonable concept in neurology. there are no pathways that funnel to single neurons, nor any pathways that branch out from single neurons such that streams could be recorded or played back, so this is not a direction to seek.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26949246 - 09/22/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I take smart peoples word on it and it makes sense.




Hey its good to be honest. I guess its OK to take things on faith like that, but I'm more of a "show it to me and 'splain it to me please" type. I'm skeptical of everything... even myself :confused:


To me, the most difficult part of Evolution to grasp is the self-replicating DNA molecule. This video blows my mind every time I see it.



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26949301 - 09/22/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

very cool animation.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26949424 - 09/22/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

no, i do not think that neurons are tape recorders.  you speak of the brain and neurology as if they are something that are distinguishable from the rest of the body.  there is no separation between the mind and the body, any separation that is perceived between the two is an illusion.  no one part of the body or mind is in control, nothing is in control, yet everything is in control!  the whole is indistinguishable from the part in a network of molecular democracy.  it is an unfragmented, non-dualist knowledge system whose integration gives rise to large-scale actions, that are coordinated in a continuum of macroscopic to the microscopic and vice versa.  the protein matrix is the substrate of this coordinated whole.

living systems are not subject to the laws of thermodynamics.  the sentient whole has no definite localizations or boundaries.  energy can be delocalized over all modes, or concentrated in a single mode.  the geometrically coherent structures of the human organism allow for coherent excitations to develop, and the organic wholeness of the human organism behaves as a single crystal-like structure that is only describable in terms of quantum coherence. 

tissue solitons possess magnetic properties as each soliton is a magnetic monopole.  the electric fields generated by connective tissues can propagate as a wave through surrounding tissue, and this ripple effect, the collected excited state, is the soliton.  the crystalline materials are what produce large-scale coherent vibrations that communicate the regulatory information that are conducted through the entire protein matrix. the components of this crystalline matrix are semiconductors that can conduct and process vibrational information, and convert energy from one form to another.

electromagnetism has succeeded in changing civilization through technology, and this same energy needs to be recognized in living systems if organization and control of the whole human organism, and its most important functions is to be understood.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26949566 - 09/22/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I never declared that the brain or mind were in control of anything, and I never spoke of the brain and body as separate. If you can find that in any one of 16 years of my comments I would be surprised.

but you speak in repetitive nonsense and generalizations, and I have been saying that in every way I can think of.

Are you trying to describe memory in that last 3 paragraphs, does anybody besides you understand what you mean with regard to this.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26949689 - 09/22/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

i apologize if i have misinterpreted your comments.

i know that you have posted extensively on memory engrams, but the logical problem with confining memory to the brain and the nervous system is that it studies the phenomenoa of memory in too narrow a discipline, only focusing on a small part of the whole problem.

in my previous post, i am describing how memory works in the body, not in the mind.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26949899 - 09/22/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

but you did not describe anything turning into a memory or being recalled.

Anyway, through everything that I write about mind I have no separation from body, and no memory without body memory. However, after amputation of any part of body memory continues to function, as long as the brain is alive. The brain is where the patterns clash and bind and the brain is where those things that became memory are used to recognize what is happening and make new memory.

all body sensation is in mind,
the mind can even feel amputated body parts.

amputated body parts remember nothing.


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26950107 - 09/22/20 09:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
no one part of the body or mind is in control, nothing is in control, yet everything is in control!  the whole is indistinguishable from the part in a network of molecular democracy.  it is an unfragmented, non-dualist knowledge system whose integration gives rise to large-scale actions, that are coordinated in a continuum of macroscopic to the microscopic and vice versa.  the protein matrix is the substrate of this coordinated whole.

living systems are not subject to the laws of thermodynamics.  the sentient whole has no definite localizations or boundaries.  energy can be delocalized over all modes, or concentrated in a single mode.  the geometrically coherent structures of the human organism allow for coherent excitations to develop, and the organic wholeness of the human organism behaves as a single crystal-like structure that is only describable in terms of quantum coherence. 

tissue solitons possess magnetic properties as each soliton is a magnetic monopole.  the electric fields generated by connective tissues can propagate as a wave through surrounding tissue, and this ripple effect, the collected excited state, is the soliton.  the crystalline materials are what produce large-scale coherent vibrations that communicate the regulatory information that are conducted through the entire protein matrix. the components of this crystalline matrix are semiconductors that can conduct and process vibrational information, and convert energy from one form to another.

electromagnetism has succeeded in changing civilization through technology, and this same energy needs to be recognized in living systems if organization and control of the whole human organism, and its most important functions is to be understood.




I agree... but you forgot that the turbo encabulator is the instrument that supplies inverse reactive current in unilateral phase detractors, and automatically synchronizes cardinal graham-meters. Basically, the only new principal involved is that instead of power being generated by the motion of conductors and fluxes, it uses the modial interaction of magneto reluctance and capacitive duractance.

For the full video, which I highly recommend so that you can get your facts straight... I shall bestow upon you the following link for the proper alignment of your graviton wave neuro-flux proteins:



--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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OfflineMoses_Davidson
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26950121 - 09/22/20 09:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I have a very good friend... like a brother to me. He and his very intellectual brother spent a lot of time came up with some ideas of their own, building and building upon their own learning, which was unconventional and revolutionarily innovative.

I told him, as lovingly as I could... that I would not claim to have any particular expertise in the topics he was discussing, and that I don't know enough to be entitled to any sort of a credible academic opinion... and I know enough to say that I don't know what I am talking about... and that I believe he knows far less than I do on the topic, and doesn't know what he is talking about either.

Needless to say, he was not happy with my comment. Sorry... but if I didn't express that you were speaking of things you know not, I would be doing you a disservice.


--------------------
"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26950517 - 09/23/20 05:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

$750,000,000.00 seems about right


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26950644 - 09/23/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

have you ever had someone touch your thigh, and then you are flooded with some memory of your past, like sitting on the beach five years earlier, having a conversation with your friend about a shark attack that happened at the beach week before?  a movement, a touch, (and obviously a smell or taste, but i'm talking about movement and touch in this case) is capable of eliciting recall of something that happened in the distant past.  the body can store information, and a touch can cause a physiological communication channel to open up, and these memories are capable of reaching the consciousness.  the remembering happens via the manipulation of a coherent wavefront that reads the information that is holographically encoded in cells and tissues.  the experience of the world is shaped by referencing the information in these reflected wavefronts.

of course this concept seems too peculiar for scientific exploration, but these concepts do have a sound scientific foundation, although they have not yet become a normal part of mainstream scientific exploration.  this is a fundamental and evolutionarily ancient communication system, and it does have a logical scientific basis.

all cells have the capacity for memory.  they store information in their cytoskeletons, which can be thought of as the nervous system of the cell, and the cytoskeleton being continuous with all other molecular networks in the body, means the information stored within an individual cell can be accessed and communicated via the network that i have described in all previous posts in this thread.

the microtubule, a component of the cytoskeleton, acts like a computer in that they have patterns of information strings.  the microtubules are composed of tubulin, and information is stored in these tubulin monomers via their orientation and by their position of attachment to the microtubule associated proteins.  the character strings in a microtubule can be erased by depolymerizing it, similar to how you could use a magnet on your hard drive to erase information by turning all magnetic particles to the same orientation.

the memories encoded in the cytoskeletal structures can lead to a conscious mental image of past events, as this informational network distributes regulatory signals through the whole body. in previous posts i described how the entire network has the ability to generate and conduct vibrations.  every physiological event creates vibrations that travel through the whole human organism.  this coherent communication system is composed of field interactions that are the result of magnetic, thermal, photonic, microwave, and other kinds of energy.  the integrity of the entire network is dependent on the activity of all the components in sum, as all the components are in relation to the whole.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26950829 - 09/23/20 10:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
have you ever had someone touch your thigh, and then you are flooded with some memory of your past, like sitting on the beach five years earlier, having a conversation with your friend about a shark attack that happened at the beach week before?  a movement, a touch, (and obviously a smell or taste, but i'm talking about movement and touch in this case) is capable of eliciting recall of something that happened in the distant past. 




Yes of course, this happens - it is called associative memory, and sensory signals are definitely important.

associative memory occurs in the brain.

so does sensation a few thousandths of a second after physical contact.

after a constellation of sensation signals occur in the brain - the most similar memory to the most significant signals will emerge and while that older pattern of sensation and thoughts are activated
(directly by similarity/association) in the brain the mind is filled with both the now and the then. as if it has become awash in both the moment and the personal significance of it.

The rest of this response is far less in accord with your propositions, although this point which seems to echo your thought is actually highly in opposition to what you are saying. In fact every body based idea you have is in your brain, every itch, every flash of color and warmth, every splash of wetness and sweetness is in you brain which is making a composite reality in real time, and this is where all your ideas of body memory and body mind are happening.
The folly is that you, in your brain, are spending extra time convincing yourself that this excellent idea which is in your brain is in you leg or your crotch or your navel.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:the body can store information, and a touch can cause a physiological communication channel to open up, and these memories are capable of reaching the consciousness.  the remembering happens via the manipulation of a coherent wavefront that reads the information that is holographically encoded in cells and tissues.  the experience of the world is shaped by referencing the information in these reflected wavefronts.




there is no mechanism in the body, except in the brain, that can work with sensory wave interaction so as to ensure that the next same stimulus evokes more (and more holographic effect) of the previous experience.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
of course this concept seems too peculiar for scientific exploration, but these concepts do have a sound scientific foundation, although they have not yet become a normal part of mainstream scientific exploration.  this is a fundamental and evolutionarily ancient communication system, and it does have a logical scientific basis.




if you can think of a good experiment then it will have scientific interest. so far this is loose bits that are not coherently forming any knowledge.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
all cells have the capacity for memory.  they store information in their cytoskeletons, which can be thought of as the nervous system of the cell, and the cytoskeleton being continuous with all other molecular networks in the body, means the information stored within an individual cell can be accessed and communicated via the network that i have described in all previous posts in this thread.



internally cells may have self referential memory but it is most likely chemical in nature, and vacuolous in structure, the tubular cytoskeletons are more about functions like moving mRNA around, repositioning ribosomes, wrapping environmental nutrients etc.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the microtubule, a component of the cytoskeleton, acts like a computer in that they have patterns of information strings.  the microtubules are composed of tubulin, and information is stored in these tubulin monomers via their orientation and by their position of attachment to the microtubule associated proteins.  the character strings in a microtubule can be erased by depolymerizing it, similar to how you could use a magnet on your hard drive to erase information by turning all magnetic particles to the same orientation.

the memories encoded in the cytoskeletal structures can lead to a conscious mental image of past events, as this informational network distributes regulatory signals through the whole body. in previous posts i described how the entire network has the ability to generate and conduct vibrations.  every physiological event creates vibrations that travel through the whole human organism.  this coherent communication system is composed of field interactions that are the result of magnetic, thermal, photonic, microwave, and other kinds of energy.  the integrity of the entire network is dependent on the activity of all the components in sum, as all the components are in relation to the whole.




in this completely bullshitious paragraph you generate word salad not a system of recording systemic experience an later recalling it.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26950898 - 09/23/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Not to take sides, but I don't assume the nervous system is the only way information is transferred within the body. Without objective and repeatable experiments it's conjecture, but who knows?

"Trichoplax is comprised of a few thousand cells that differentiate into four types. It has no neural or muscular systems. It basically looks and acts like a large amoeba. It reproduces by binary fission or sometimes by budding although sexual reproduction may be involved like yeast. It has the smallest genome of any known animal at 50 million base pairs which is only a factor of two smaller than the nematode."


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26950938 - 09/23/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

this is fun too

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fungus+map+of+tokyo&t=h_&ia=web

"Talented and dedicated engineers spent countless hours designing Japan’s rail system to be one of the world’s most efficient. Could have just asked a slime mold.

sciencenews
When presented with oat flakes arranged in the pattern of Japanese cities around Tokyo, brainless, single-celled slime molds construct networks of nutrient-channeling tubes that are strikingly similar to the layout of the Japanese rail system, researchers from Japan and England report Jan. 22 in Science. A new model based on the simple rules of the slime mold’s behavior may lead to the design of more efficient, adaptable networks, the team contends.

Every day, the rail network around Tokyo has to meet the demands of mass transport, ferrying millions of people between distant points quickly and reliably, notes study coauthor Mark Fricker of the University of Oxford. “In contrast, the slime mold has no central brain or indeed any awareness of the overall problem it is trying to solve, but manages to produce a structure with similar properties to the real rail network.”

The yellow slime mold Physarum polycephalum grows as a single cell that is big enough to be seen with the naked eye. When it encounters numerous food sources separated in space, the slime mold cell surrounds the food and creates tunnels to distribute the nutrients. In the experiment, researchers led by Toshiyuki Nakagaki, of Hokkaido University in Sapporo, Japan, placed oat flakes (a slime mold delicacy) in a pattern that mimicked the way cities are scattered around Tokyo, then set the slime mold loose."


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26950963 - 09/23/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

an example of the precognitive consciousness, that is able to  take in, store, and process far more information than we can consciously know and access, and takes place at a velocity faster than what the nervous system is capable of.  from:

Extended Network Generalized Entanglement Theory: Therapeutic Mechanisms, Empirical Predictions, and Investigations

Michael E. Hyland


Quote:

The hyperfast communication prediction

Quantum entanglement is an instantaneous phenomenon, and generalized quantum entanglement should also be instantaneous. If we focus on generalized quantum entanglement within a single body, this leads to the prediction that there is a hyperfast or instantaneous communication system within the body whereby macrolevel patterns communicate with pattern specifying genes, such as Hox genes. Entanglement Theory makes precise predictions about this communication system, because the systems are assumed to be linked to specific genes. If acupuncture meridians reflect, for example, individual Hox genes or gene clusters, then stimulation of one point of the meridian should lead to an instantaneous response at all other parts of the meridian. That is, the whole of the pattern specified by the Hox gene—or meridian—should “know” if any part of that pattern is stimulated. There are methodological problems in setting up this test but there are some preliminary results indicating the existence of a hyperfast communication system with the predicted specificity of response to acupuncture meridians.

Research by Jones and colleagues (Jones,2003; Jones et al., 2002) indicates that ultrasound stimulation of an acupoint in the foot leads to a specific response in the brain several orders of magnitude faster than predicted and observed from nerve conduction. Moreover, this hyperfast response is observed at other points on the meridian between foot and brain, but only on those sites specific to an acupuncture meridian.

Psychologic theories make no predictions about a hyperfast communication system, but the prediction of various fast (i.e., speed of light but necessarily instantaneous) responses is predicted from electromagnetic theories of healing. Electromagnetic signals are, in terms of current measurement within the body, hyperfast, and the proposal that the body is a crystalline structure (Oschman, 2000), would also suggest hyperfast communication. However, Entanglement Theory makes a different kind of prediction. In electromagnetic theory, information is encoded in a vibrational signal that is then transmitted throughout the body, and the relevant part of the body acts as a receiver for that information. Thus, there is no prediction of specificity of response as is the case with Network Entanglement Theory. The prediction, and hence test, of the latter is that there are several independent hyperfast communication systems within the body, and stimulation of one pattern only affects points on that one pattern. The prediction and test of specificity is the key distinction between these two different mechanisms.





this is the same faster than nervous system high-speed network, a non-neural pathway from sensors to muscles that suggests there is a reversible linkage between sensation and movement systems in cells and tissues.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951029 - 09/23/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

an example of memory not confined to the nervous system - showing that all cells can store information, as seen in individuals with transplanted organs that acquire “memories” from donors of the transplanted tissue.  the microtububle has been researched and implicated as a possible mechanism that is responsible for this in a number of studies.

Quote:

CHANGES IN HEART TRANSPLANT RECIPIENTS THAT PARALLEL THE PERSONALITIES OF THEIR DONORS

PAUL PEARSALL, PHD

It is generally assumed that learning involves primarily the nervous system and, secondarily, the immune systems within them. Hence, patients receiving peripheral organ transplants should not experience personality changes that parallel those of donors they have never met. When personality changes have been observed following transplants, the kinds of explanations entertained include effects of the immunosuppressant drugs, psychosocial stress, and preexisting psychopathology of the recipients.

However, living systems theory explicitly posits that all living cells possess “memory” and “decider” functional sub-systems within them. Moreover, the recent integration of systems theory (termed dynamical energy systems theory) provides compelling logic that leads to the prediction that all dynamical systems store information and energy to various degrees.  The systemic memory mechanism provides a plausible explanation for the evolution of emergent (novel) systemic properties through recurrent feedback interactions (i.e., the nonlinear circulation of information and energy that reflects the ongoing interactions of the components in a complex, dynamic network.)

Recurrent feedback loops exist in all atomic, molecular and cellular systems. Hence, evidence for atomic systemic memory, molecular systemic memory, and cellular systemic memory should be found in these systems.





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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26951164 - 09/23/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Not to take sides, but I don't assume the nervous system is the only way information is transferred within the body. Without objective and repeatable experiments it's conjecture, but who knows?

"Trichoplax is comprised of a few thousand cells that differentiate into four types. It has no neural or muscular systems. It basically looks and acts like a large amoeba. It reproduces by binary fission or sometimes by budding although sexual reproduction may be involved like yeast. It has the smallest genome of any known animal at 50 million base pairs which is only a factor of two smaller than the nematode."



yes reproduceable experimentation is required to establish some facts, however, some of thealienthatategod's stated opinions are fundamentally illogical, in the sense that they run outright counter to what has already been learned through experimentation, while seemingly presenting as openminded which is a good thing (see my byline below).

I do not know why you brought up Trichoplax - but hey, there really is no staying on topic anyway.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951221 - 09/23/20 02:42 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The hyperfast communication prediction, is based entirely upon several speculations - none of which have been experimentally demonstrated. Accupoints, are not sending signals to the brain faster than neurons can handle it by using channels of entanglement.

the experiments for this are not included in your post.
generally neural transmission involves synapses which are classically on the cell body or on dendrites at the receiving end and on the ends of long axons that follow a path through the body.
The pulse runs along the axons and may pause as it is synaptically (chemically) transferred to the next cell in the circuit.

However electrical fields and impulses can certainly be carried in fluids and fascia in the body and then converted from an electrical field event back into a strictly neural event (as is noted when electric pulses are applied to the cerebral cortex stimulating reactions in the brain and body). Merely transcending synaptic speeds in the body is not proof of quantum or other entanglement. Non-neural routes of signal transmission work but are less reliable in the sense that they are not contained within the general framework of electrically insulated wiring in the body, i.e. afferent and efferent nerves.

SECONDLY, You are misinterpreting PAUL PEARSALL, PHD's report. No persistent memory comes with a transplanted heart, BUT, just like a well worn baseball glove, a well worn heart will have peak efficiencies at rhythms that were not in the person's original heart, which is 100% logical due to differences in sizes and shapes of the component parts. THIS IS NOT MEMORY.

your eagerness to invest in crackpot theories is nauseating to me.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26951238 - 09/23/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

In my humble opinion pseudo science is the best kind of science.  It stays close to the facts of the matter without bondage yet simultaneously allows the imagination to do it's job.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26951262 - 09/23/20 03:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Trychoplast has no nervous system, yet it's reasonable that the cells communicate to produce coordination.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26951385 - 09/23/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

not much coordination going on in trychoplasts


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26951606 - 09/23/20 06:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What in God's name is your end goal or conclusion?

Stick a needle in your back and bam you've opened up the quantum gates to enlightenment?

Let's say everything you've suggested in this thread is 100 percent proven and showable that there's quantum telepathy within someone.

What changes? What happens? What does it mean or what can we learn? Can we actually use that to improve ourselves in anyway or is this all some quantum fangirl stuff like the phase reactors in star trek?

I just don't see what you see behind all this beyond the quantum nonsense other than to distance humans from any binding to the natural world.



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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26951616 - 09/23/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

"quantum fangirl stuff"  :lol:

As a side note I have not read much of the recent discussions in this thread.  I am simply enjoying the show.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26952259 - 09/24/20 07:11 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

many possibilities for exploration are opened up, and investigating this science further would provide the largest paradigm shift in medicine and therapeutic techniques. 

the current paradigms that dominate medical science limits the methods that can be used to bring about cures and limits the human perception of the ability of the body to heal itself.  the therapeutic techniques that arise from these quantum biological concepts could bring about a revolution in medical science.    energy medicine in the form of electrical and magnetic treatments would become more widespread.  there are profound implications for human health, human performance, the placebo effect,  and healing.  certainly there would be less of an emphasis on pharmaceutical agents as a widely used method for healing of the human organism.

philosophically, the implications of this paradigm shift relate to the mind and its relation to reality - consciousness, and dreaming.

psychospiritually it has ramifications relative to intent and intuition.

in the realm of parapsychology it opens up questions about telepathy, ESP, and remote viewing.

i can’t think of a single domain that wouldn’t be touched by these discoveries.


what do i want? - healthy thriving humans with unlimited potential.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26952297 - 09/24/20 07:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Well I hope you make lots of new discoveries and help people get along in their lives.

I used to have a little white used dog (my uncle gave it to me as it was attacking a baby in his (other side) nephew's family). The yappy thing actually nipped the mail lady, and I had to get rid of it or the post office threatened to stop bringing my bills.

That annoying dog (a Beeshon Frizay (pron.)) used to chase cars as well. I called it the French Rastafarian speed bump, and hoped things would resolve themselves that way, but no. I eventually had to have it driven to Dog Haven in Shelbourne, where canine group therapy was practiced on a farm, and wayward dogs were reformed by an ex-school master, and placed in good homes.

I did not follow up, but my kids believed I took it to Dog Heaven, i.e. euthanization, and to this day would not trust me with a furry creature, but I am sure that dog found a happier life than the freedom I gave it in the city.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26952467 - 09/24/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Trychoplast - "There are no neurons present, but in the absence of a nervous system the animal use short chains of amino acids known as peptides for cell communication, in a way that resembles how animals with neurons use neuropeptides for the same purpose. Individual cells contain and secrete a variety of small peptides, made up of between four and 20 amino acids, which are detected by neighbouring cells. Each peptide can be used individually to send a signal to other cells, but also sequentially or together in different combinations, creating a huge number a different types of signals. This allows for a relatively complex behavior such as crinkling, turning, flattening, and internal churning."

Trychoplast got some moves! Maybe not faster than nerves, but it still shows that a nervous system isn't needed for inter cellular communication. I'm not making a major point, just thought it was interesting.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26952559 - 09/24/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

it's tropism which is like growth or development, but misinterpreted as volitional movement.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26952610 - 09/24/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Volition or not, the point still stands, that cell to cell communication happens without dedicated nerve cells. I'm not trying to support thealienthatategod's argument. But who knows what is possible? It's an interesting concept, though I don't believe the type of memory we're talking about is stored outside the brain and nervous system. However, there's a theory which states that specialized cells are higher order functions of things cells were doing already. Much I don't know.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26952669 - 09/24/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I did not follow up, but my kids believed I took it to Dog Heaven, i.e. euthanization, and to this day would not trust me with a furry creature, but I am sure that dog found a happier life than the freedom I gave it in the city.




SO... Thealien,... Can you read between the lines? I was going to argue some more to promote the Turbo Encabulator... but this furry prophet is DONE yapping!


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26952786 - 09/24/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Opening the floodgates to parapsychology and giving cadence to mediums, tarot card readers and people we know in modern times are frauds..

Photosynthesis and cellular respiration are arms of quantum biology, quantum biology is nothing new.

We already have 8 senses, telekenisis would be with yourself, and remote viewing? How in gobs is that brought into the equation? 

Our potential is already out there as humans.

Learning more about placebo is something I'm down for, but it's hard to imagine that telekenisis with my foot will be the answer.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26952809 - 09/24/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I did not follow up, but my kids believed I took it to Dog Heaven, i.e. euthanization, and to this day would not trust me with a furry creature, but I am sure that dog found a happier life than the freedom I gave it in the city.




SO... Thealien,... Can you read between the lines? I was going to argue some more to promote the Turbo Encabulator... but this furry prophet is DONE yapping!



the Bichon was called cookie. alien is another breed, but group therapy on a farm with other mutts is highly regarded as humane.

may we all have happy homes in the future.
:badchiadog:


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26952880 - 09/24/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Moses_Davidson said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I did not follow up, but my kids believed I took it to Dog Heaven, i.e. euthanization, and to this day would not trust me with a furry creature, but I am sure that dog found a happier life than the freedom I gave it in the city.




SO... Thealien,... Can you read between the lines? I was going to argue some more to promote the Turbo Encabulator... but this furry prophet is DONE yapping!



the Bichon was called cookie. alien is another breed, but group therapy on a farm with other mutts is highly regarded as humane.

may we all have happy homes in the future.
:badchiadog:




i was sent to the Shroomery for group therapy.

Moses, as far as your Turbo Encabulator, you speak an infinite deal of nothing!

Sudly,

it’s about a world just beyond the horizon of human perception.  yes, we already live in this world, but how many can perceive and manipulate it?  it’s unfortunate that many mediums are frauds, but that doesn’t make all mediums frauds.

human potential is suppressed, how many live in an environment where they have access to investigating the unknown side of their being?  there is boundless unused potential in human beings, and these concepts/hypotheses/models/theories broaden the image of what a human being is.  imagine if everybody could use the power of their psyche completely in conjunction with the full actualization of a healthy body.

the placebo effect demonstrates time and time again that human consciousness is a fundamental part to the body's self-regulation.  consciousness doesn't end with a boundary where the body begins, they are a continuum. when the mind speaks, the body is always listening, whether we become consciously aware of this conversation or not, likewise, when the body speaks, the mind must interpret.  the subconscious has access to an uncommon volition because it does not have expectations, immediate inclinations, social conventions, or desires for a specific outcome. in this flow state, where external rewards are disregarded, there is an absence of limiting self-consciousness, and a space is created for capabilities to manifest that are outside what is normally accessible to the conscious physical senses.

there is evidence that stone age cultures used remote viewing in hunting.  remote viewing is a universal human capacity that all humans possess, and most are unconsciously utilizing it.  it is brought into the equation, because as an individual gains the ability to interact with flows of energy and information they will consciously begin to have a direct experience of this energy and information, even when this energy and information is a person or an event outside of the normally perceivable world.  it is a normal sensory impression, that can be cultivated to the forefront of consciousness.  knowing ones own internal body substrate can lead to advances in intuition, because this knowing is closer to reality than perceived reality, given that it is based on far more information.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26952943 - 09/24/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I would have to send you back given the file.
there is no more we can do for you here.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26952992 - 09/24/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the subconscious has access to an uncommon volition because it does not have expectations, immediate inclinations, social conventions, or desires for a specific outcome.





I agree that the unconscious or subconscious has access to an uncommon volition.  I do not agree that it lacks expectations, or the desire for specific outcomes.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26952993 - 09/24/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Re: thealienthatategod

Would seem on a forum like this the appropriate style of posting is somewhere between actual highly technical scientific papers published in science journals that, no one here can fully understand, and pure dogmatism or fanatical belief.

Personal opinions without a chain of convincing logic, or links to peer reviewed studies, or a link to some respected source or sources, remain just that: only another opinion among hundreds or thousands of opinions, and as such hardly worth much attention, in cases where one wishes to determine the truth of a matter. There are many oddball theories and crackpots, so reproducible results, randomized subjects, controls, and peer review, etc. are all part of the scientific process. One or 2 studies frequently prove nothing.

The world is full of superstitious people who are sure they are right. Baseball players are known to be examples of this.

Certainly there are occasional cases of dreams 'predicting' the future, but most don't, so there is no way to know which do ahead of time. Likewise among billions of people having trillions of interactions some psychic phenomenon seem to occur. But again no one has a proven teachable method others can use to get rich or live forever or read minds, & so on. As a result those who become preoccupied with such stuff tend to be either a bit neurotic or become suckers or both.

Is it possible to break boards with bare hands? Maybe. But to experience it one has to firstly decide it is a worthwhile pursuit and 2ndly make an enormous commitment of time and energy. Many spiritual traditions advise against pursuing strange powers.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26953006 - 09/24/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
the subconscious has access to an uncommon volition because it does not have expectations, immediate inclinations, social conventions, or desires for a specific outcome.





I agree that the unconscious or subconscious has access to an uncommon volition.  I do not agree that it lacks expectations, or the desire for specific outcomes.



there is no subconscious, just delete the 'sub' or replace using the word mind. it will mean the same, if it means anything, and I am not sure that it will (mean anything).


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26953145 - 09/24/20 05:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think "unconscious" as opposed to "conscious" is useful.  "Sub" would imply lesser than or below which seems a bit off.  Consciousness is like an ocean?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26953381 - 09/24/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, except for the fish and the weeds and the boats etc.


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26954653 - 09/25/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:

Moses, as far as your Turbo Encabulator, you speak an infinite deal of nothing!






Well, I have never... Good sir, I will have you know... that Rockwell Electronics has stolen technology from the turbo encabulator, with their "retro encabulator" (sic). Here is the full academic citation as my reference as to how very good and valuable this concept is!

Carnes, R. L. (2008). Rockwell Retro Encabulator. YouTube.


(Because if you can watch a video about it on YouTube, then you can be certain that it is correct, and nothing should ever change your mind about it.)

But so far as you being sent to Shroomery for therapy-- This was in no way a blow-off, or someone trying to get rid of you. Shroomerytherapytm is a highly respected means of group therapy, so please don't feel like your therapist was just trying to tell you to bug off. However, the correct forum for that sort of discussion is in the Shroomery University area. This is where you can teach others your expertise: Individuals in that area are prepared to be enlightened. Though we do all like to disagree with each other here, all of us here are very limited by the small-minded constraints of logic, consistency, and our dogmatic need for some semblance of academic rigor. Also, you may try posting in the Conspiracies and Coverups area, because Western medicine is just not ready for this sort of advanced learning.


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"In finance, everything that is agreeable is unsound and everything that is sound is disagreeable." --Sir Winston Churchill

"The world may not only be stranger than we suppose, it may be stranger than we can suppose."
J.B.S. Haldane

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't."
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26955306 - 09/26/20 12:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: Sudly,

it’s about a world just beyond the horizon of human perception.  yes, we already live in this world, but how many can perceive and manipulate it?  it’s unfortunate that many mediums are frauds, but that doesn’t make all mediums frauds.




That all mediums are not frauds in your view is the chasm that divides us. I find the practice appalling, to cold read vulnerable people often grieving the loss of a loved one or financial crisis/addiction. The practices of receiving cash and giving back a conjugated word salad of lies and guesses.

There is no medium on earth who is legitimate, some guesses may land, but that they are guesses is indisputable.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said:  human potential is suppressed, how many live in an environment where they have access to investigating the unknown side of their being?  there is boundless unused potential in human beings, and these concepts/hypotheses/models/theories broaden the image of what a human being is.  imagine if everybody could use the power of their psyche completely in conjunction with the full actualization of a healthy body.




There is boundless unused potential in human beings, I agree to this one! :thumbup:

What you appear to think is suppressing this human potential would be good for us to clarify imo.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: the placebo effect demonstrates time and time again that human consciousness is a fundamental part to the body's self-regulation.  consciousness doesn't end with a boundary where the body begins, they are a continuum. when the mind speaks, the body is always listening, whether we become consciously aware of this conversation or not, likewise, when the body speaks, the mind must interpret.  the subconscious has access to an uncommon volition because it does not have expectations, immediate inclinations, social conventions, or desires for a specific outcome.




I agree entirely.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: in this flow state, where external rewards are disregarded, there is an absence of limiting self-consciousness, and a space is created for capabilities to manifest that are outside what is normally accessible to the conscious physical senses.




Flow state doesn't mean anything to me.

Is there a chance you could simplify or expand on the above paragraph? I find it interesting to read but difficult to interpret, I feel like it makes some sense but I can't quite put into words where I agree with you on that.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: there is evidence that stone age cultures used remote viewing in hunting.  remote viewing is a universal human capacity that all humans possess, and most are unconsciously utilizing it.  it is brought into the equation, because as an individual gains the ability to interact with flows of energy and information they will consciously begin to have a direct experience of this energy and information, even when this energy and information is a person or an event outside of the normally perceivable world.  it is a normal sensory impression, that can be cultivated to the forefront of consciousness.  knowing ones own internal body substrate can lead to advances in intuition, because this knowing is closer to reality than perceived reality, given that it is based on far more information.




Sounds like the vestibular system and our sense of balance. Proprioception and the sense of the orientation and movement of our muscles. Interoception and awareness of internal ongoings, plus stereognosis and the skill of realising visualisations.

https://www.spdstar.org/basic/your-8-senses#f8


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Moses_Davidson]
    #26955640 - 09/26/20 06:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

as you get more stoned, ordinary things seem composed more of blending colored energy than of solid forms.
the whole kaleidoscopic experience is consistent with overlapping moments of sensation and thought, blurred together like cartoon energy.

do not take it too seriously


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26957144 - 09/27/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

humans suppress their own potential.  largely due to perceptual distortions and poor internal programming/self-limiting expectations.  it is only me that stands in the way of i.  humans choose to live only part of the life that they are given.  dramatic transformations of mind and body are at the fingertips, but most can't comprehend their potential for an extraordinary life.  of course, cultural conditioning/social programming is a factor in extinguishing great potential, but it is up to the individual to step over the boundaries that cultural conditioning emphasizes and pursue their own realizations.

regarding the placebo effect, and taken in consideration with the previous paragraph, humans possess largely untapped capacities to balance and restore their own functioning.  what i mean by a non-limiting self-consciousness -  is one that does not presuppose, or classify, or evaluate.  this intuitiveness’s greatest capability is in listening - it is not consciously trying to interpret anything, and it is able to access the part of the body that knows how to heal istelf.  a flow state is a place where the mind is quieted and the senses are hyper-focused,  when the mind is free the senses can begin to function with a new clarity and scope.  when this space is created, moods, perceptions, autonomic functioning, motor functioning, ect. can be improved through an individual's self-regulatory powers.  the mind is capable of managing matter -  the power of belief is actualized in its ability to override what conscious physical reality says is possible.

the ability to interface with non-local reality requires analogues of ordinary seeing, hearing, smelling etc.  it it a sense perception that is able to gather and decode information and energy faster than conscious sense communication abilities.  the same state that i wrote about in the above paragraph, that allows the placebo effect to manifest, is the same state that allows an ability like remote viewing to manifest, but it is more consciously cultivated.  information is conveyed in a fully intuitive sense, and the viewer has access to metanormal sensory perception, because the experiemce is taking place in a bandwidth that is not consciously trying to interpret it.


Edited by thealienthatategod (09/27/20 09:20 AM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26957148 - 09/27/20 08:13 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
as you get more stoned, ordinary things seem composed more of blending colored energy than of solid forms.
the whole kaleidoscopic experience is consistent with overlapping moments of sensation and thought, blurred together like cartoon energy.

do not take it too seriously




:cookiemonster:


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26959629 - 09/29/20 12:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

The stuff above this makes enough sense to me, I agree with the general direction of it.

The below though.. I think it confuses things.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: the power of belief is actualized in its ability to override what conscious physical reality says is possible.




Actualising or realising goals we set or the ideas we have is a good skill to train, but I think that what we're aiming to override is the procrastination and hesitation to act or follow through.

Overcoming our doubts maybe.

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: the ability to interface with non-local reality requires analogues of ordinary seeing, hearing, smelling etc.  it it a sense perception that is able to gather and decode information and energy faster than conscious sense communication abilities.  the same state that i wrote about in the above paragraph, that allows the placebo effect to manifest, is the same state that allows an ability like remote viewing to manifest, but it is more consciously cultivated.  information is conveyed in a fully intuitive sense, and the viewer has access to metanormal sensory perception, because the experiemce is taking place in a bandwidth that is not consciously trying to interpret it.




I think I can see the angle you're coming from with mention of a 'flow state', but I disagree with your choice of words, how exactly you've described it.

There is a way to reduce the viscocity or resistance associated with our hesitations to better maintain a flow of positive placebo.

The take away for me is that we CAN access unlimited placebo, but the cost associated with it isn't entirely clear to me as of yet.

I am still working on practicing and learning to articulate the steps that remove me from inactivity.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26959830 - 09/29/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The take away for me is that we CAN access unlimited placebo, but the cost associated with it isn't entirely clear to me as of yet.




what would be the potential cost?

Quote:

sudly said:

I am still working on practicing and learning to articulate the steps that remove me from inactivity.




what do you mean by this?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26959948 - 09/29/20 08:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

the lockdown has channeled him into the hall of mirrors of inactivity or less activity, and like everyone else he is going bonkers.

first he works up an adrenal cosmology of flight or fright and then he gets so boxed in he can do neither.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26963248 - 10/01/20 03:48 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Speak for yourself.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26963249 - 10/01/20 03:49 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Understanding what a reward system is, is the first step, and altering it to suit your needs is the cost.

Quote:

"The meaning of rewards is somehow related to the field of motivation because motivation is usually defined as the drive to achieve the organizations’ goal. This brings the question that why people should develop such a drive and why they should care whether the organizations’ goal is achieved or not (Maltby and Day, 2001). The answer is the person who develops such a drive desires the rewards and benefits as a return when they achieved the goal of the organization (Lefton et al., 1977). Moreover, the rewards are strongly related to the level of job motivation, leading to the research question: Discuss whether reward systems are related to motivation at work?"

The objective of the present research is to investigate the relationship between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards and motivation at work. The empirical evidence of Tziner (1983) reveals that the better the correspondence between rewards and needs, the better the employees motivation and satisfaction. Furthermore, this study is accounting the relationship, between monetary and non-monetary rewards and motivation at work, realizing that human needs can be recognized as tangible and intangible. Therefore, correlating goals and needs provides a coherent understanding toward reward strength and motivation at work.

In order to explain what motivates employees, it is important to give a definition of motivation. Also, motivation has been described as one of the most critical concerns of modern organizational research (Baron, 1991).

Quote:

“Motivation is a psychological concept related to the strength and direction of people.” (Torrington and Hall, 1987, p.351).
“Motivation is the process whereby goals are recognized, choices are made (consciously or not) and energy is directed towards achieving the goal.” (Hunt, 1992, p.5-6).






The figure above, process of motivation, demonstrates that it is a need-related model that is initiated by the conscious and recognition of unsatisfied needs. In addition, needs concentrate on the deficiencies which an individual experiences at a particular time such as physiological (i.e. a need for food), psychological (i.e. a need for self-esteem) or sociological needs (i.e. a need for social interaction). Needs are considered as energies for behavioral responses. When the need deficiencies are present, the individual is more prone to a manager’s motivational efforts. These needs create selected wants, which individual believed that it might satisfy their needs and wants, and it is expected that these will influence goal direct behavior.

Needs deficiencies energize a search process for ways to reduce the tension caused by these deficiencies? Managers then evaluate the behavior and performance in order to assess suitable types of reward or punishment for employees. However, each individual will have different unique characteristics as Robbins (1990) said:

a) Each individual develop different patterns of needs, values, and perceptions.

b) Each individual characteristic is not constant, but continue to develop as they encounter new problems and experiences.

Reward Systems
Motivation is the choice to channel energy into certain activities in the expectation that valued goals will be rewarded. As McKenna (2000, p.555) states that “Reward systems are at the disposal of managers in order to attract, retain, and motivate people in the desired direction.” It could be said that rewards are the most useful factor to motivate people in organizations.

Motivational theories are directly relevant to reward systems and they often distinguish between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards (Naylor, 2004). However, it is important to first look at the rewards valued by individuals because most people will put in little effort unless the reward has value (Vecchio, 1995). Both intrinsic and extrinsic rewards are described as follow:

Intrinsic Rewards
Franken (1988, p.470) stated that “Intrinsic motivation simply means that a task or activity is enjoyable, independent of any extrinsic rewards.” It can also be defined as internal drivers that influence people to behave in particular ways and directions. In other words, this type of motivation refers to psychological rewards, which include responsibility, a sense of challenge and achievement, freedom to act, opportunity for advancement, development of skills and abilities and interesting, and challenging work (Calder and Staw, 1975).

Intrinsic reward is achieved by satisfying individual needs for achievement, responsibility, variety, challenge, influence in decision making, and membership of supportive team. As Gruneberg and Wall (1984) pointed out, individuals do not seek compensation or benefits but also seek intrinsic rewards such as feelings of competence, achievement, responsibility, personal growth, and meaningful contribution. Intrinsic rewards, which are less visible, relate to the design of jobs, which plays a significant role in creating opportunities for this kind of reward (Wiersma, 1992).

Extrinsic Rewards
This factor is relevant to tangible rewards, for instance, salary, fringe benefits, promotion, status symbols, security, and the conditions of work, provided by the organization to motivate its employees (Wiersma, 1992).

Extrinsic rewards derive from sources that are external to the individual, are provided by organizations, and are achieved by recognition, skills development and learning and career opportunities. These include salary, wages, bonuses, commission payments, working conditions, company car, and pension (Vecchio, 1995). Some extrinsic rewards are explained as the following:

https://www.auessays.com/essays/business/the-rationale-of-a-reward-system-business-essay.php




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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26963472 - 10/01/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I just skimmed the overly long post for the word dopamine. Seems odd to discuss rewards while skipping all mention of dopamine


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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26963614 - 10/01/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

not all rewards are alike; anyway it is best not to reduce reality to the interactions of dopamine, adrenaline, serotonin, etc.
there is a lot more going on than hormones and transmitters. Those are  facilitator chemicals to assist change of state - they are not the state.


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