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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26898711 - 08/25/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:

People so seldom consider the political ramifications in the origins and development of religions.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26899291 - 08/25/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
:thumbup:

People so seldom consider the political ramifications in the origins and development of religions.




.  Yes, indeed Jesus was not only not a Christian, but was a Jew, and only a reformer.

.  And unlike the 3 monotheistic religions (we are used to in the West) Hinduism was more like, the Roman, Greek, and Egyptian religions in having many Gods, (except it has far more).

.  So when Buddhism aka Buddha gives no importance to such categories as: a deity, life after death in another realm, and the performance of sacrificial rituals to please such Gods, and the exclusion of certain castes, and women and; and on the contrary talks about 'interdependence' and 'cause and effect', he is both teaching and reforming.
.  In terms of psychology he is making individuals responsible for their own happiness.
.  In terms of sociology he is liberating women to some small degree.
.  Like Martin Luther, who said protestants should be free of the intermediary of the pope between the individual and God - Buddha is eliminating Brahmins and their rituals and animal slaughter from having any value what-so-ever - this was going against the whole social order of the time and of the country. This was no small thing, for a man to do, just by itself.
.  In terms of promoting thinking vs dogma, again this was a striking a blow for individual responsibility, and directly in opposition to the prevailing religions.
https://www.azquotes.com/author/37842-Gautama_Buddha/tag/belief
.  In terms of promoting reason he was perhaps the world's fist psychologist around 2500 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_psychology

Seems much of the teaching works simultaneously at different levels.


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OfflineRedNucleus
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26913688 - 09/02/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I really enjoy this thread. Thank you for your thoughts.


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Namaste


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: RedNucleus]
    #26913760 - 09/02/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I find the i-ching a consistently good source of inspiration (gave my copy away to wean a friend from Tarot cards), but I find the buddha's emphasis on practice of awareness the best gift.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26935663 - 09/14/20 05:51 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

cool thread.

humans are the culmination of millions (billions?) of years of survival testing, and current biological sciences are the culmination of a few centuries of intellectual activity that is distracted by egos, arrogance, and vested interests.

when viewed as a whole, the human organism exhibits properties that are impossible to account for as a synthesis of the behaviors of parts.  with each layer of complexity, new properties emerge that are not possessed by the parts - collective properties form.  living systems have learned more about the laws of physics, then most physicists can possibly imagine!

it is not understood how the first cells arose...if all cells arise from preexisting cells, how did the first cell come into being?

cells are like a watch made up of hundreds of wheels, gears and parts.  if you want to know how it works, you need to know how it is put together.  current understandings of biology seem to stop at the molecular level, but there is much phenomena taking place in the quantum realm!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26937792 - 09/15/20 06:40 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I have heard of quantum considerations and life only as regards photosynthesis.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26938436 - 09/16/20 05:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

what did you hear re: photosynthesis and quantum anything?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26938961 - 09/16/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

just put the question in a search engine:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=photosynthesis+and+quantum+physics&t=h_&ia=web

and pick a link (or 2 ... or .... ) you like


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26939069 - 09/16/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

quantum biology (QB) studies the high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules.  it is the study of the systems that process energy and information  in the human body that are not biochemical, or hormonal, or of the nervous system.  in these communications, perception and action occur simultaneously in the body.  the substrate of this communication system is comprised of the fascia (connective tissues which are in all the cells throughout the body), genetic material, and most importantly, water.  what’s interesting about the question about how the first cell arose is each individual cell wall is composed of fascia, and the cells exist in a matrix of fascia, therefore, fascia must come into being before a new cell is formed.

nerves conduct impulses with a certain velocity.  such as, if something is thrown at you and about to hit your eye, you will blink, this is a reflex, a fast reaction that allows the body to protect itself, yet there is a delay at each synapse when the information is communicated as one nerve stimulates another. 

QB suggests there is another coupling between sensation and action that operates at speeds faster than what the nervous system is capable of.  this consciousness, arising in the fascia, can sustain high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules where perception and action can occur simultaneously.  a special kind of consciousness arises that uses the entire fabric of the body as a sensory atenna and a communication system for producing responses that most only have the oppurtunity to get rare glimpses of.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than humans can consciously know and access. it is a precognitive consciousness that you may hear atheletes talk about in peak athletic performances such as martial arts.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939138 - 09/16/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

do you recommend one of these for more info?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fascia%2C+communication&t=hk&ia=web


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26939230 - 09/16/20 02:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I do not see how these are quantum though I do see wave and particle aspects in play.

my penny has not dropped in the quantum piggy bank brain yet.

I think it is a research funding scam, and sensationalist science news reportage.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939344 - 09/16/20 04:04 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

that's what some say about string theory

and some find the 'big bang' theory to also have serious problems

plenty of room for skepticism and uncertainty

sometimes these things get all tangled up


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26939383 - 09/16/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

There was an excellent book released a few years ago, Life on the Edge: The Coming of Age of Quantum Biology by Johnjoe McFadden and Jim Al-Khalili, about all of the phenomena in biology that are coming to require the equations of quantum mechanics. Photosynthesis, heredity, cellular function, and other phenomena are coming to be seen as more complex than previously thought. I highly recommend the book, it's fabulous.

https://www.amazon.com/Life-Edge-Coming-Quantum-Biology/dp/0307986829/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=quantum+biology&qid=1600294716&sr=8-1


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines] * 2
    #26939393 - 09/16/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
do you recommend one of these for more info?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fascia%2C+communication&t=hk&ia=web




Albert Szent-Györgyi is the father of this science.  studying his work and that of his foremost students is a good place to start. this is a good introduction to the subject:
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/107555304322848931
the works of mae-wan ho are quite interesting, and this is a good introductory pdf on the subject.  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255996190_Super-Conducting_Liquid_Crystalline_Water_Aligned_with_Collagen_Fibres_in_the_Fascia_as_Acupuncture_Meridians_of_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine

as with quantum field theory, quantum biology is plagued by new agers misinterpreting the scientific interpretations and ascribing them to their own new agey belief systems.

the biological systems studied in QB exhibit phenomena that are usually associated with superconductors.  fascia is in a liquid crystalline state, and this is what  gives the human  organism its exquisite sensitivity and responsiveness.

thanks to the liquid crystalline state of fascia noiseless intercommunication is possible that enables the organism to function as a coherent, coordinated whole, not just a synthesis of its parts.  within the fascia, the total force acting on any individual atom at any time, and therefore its behaviour, will depend on the positions and activities of all the other atoms in the organism.  the relationship between fascia/collagen and water is the key element in understanding biological quantum coherence.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26939609 - 09/16/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

thanks - looks interesting


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26940015 - 09/17/20 01:33 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Chance, examined rationally, is a non-existent agency; a concept, not an actuality in nature, and therefore does not describe how the material reality which is man’s universe actually manifest as “events” or “outcomes”.

It's a figment; a concept of man’s mind; a way he organizes his surroundings in order to subdue them in service to his own affirmation, promotion, propagation, and comfort (for individual man is the only rational Standard of Truth,and thus himself is that which must be affirmed by his own concepts). 

So it's useful, perhaps on an emotional level, in abstractly organizing our lives with respect to choices made on behalf of certain desired outcomes, but it cannot be rationally credited with having any real power; that is, causal power–over any event or series of events.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26940332 - 09/17/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like medley abbey road

enjoy


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26940410 - 09/17/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Chance, examined rationally, is a non-existent agency; a concept, not an actuality in nature, and therefore does not describe how the material reality which is man’s universe actually manifest as “events” or “outcomes”.

It's a figment; a concept of man’s mind; a way he organizes his surroundings in order to subdue them in service to his own affirmation, promotion, propagation, and comfort (for individual man is the only rational Standard of Truth,and thus himself is that which must be affirmed by his own concepts). 

So it's useful, perhaps on an emotional level, in abstractly organizing our lives with respect to choices made on behalf of certain desired outcomes, but it cannot be rationally credited with having any real power; that is, causal power–over any event or series of events.




Agreed that chance is placeholder term for all the chaos behind the scenes that we are not currently measuring.

I do not agree that since we are not measuring it, Schrodinger's cat must be simultaneously both dead and alive amidst the chaos in any particular instance; nor do I think this is where a topic like quantum mechanics to be meaningfully invoked.

In some ways this looks like an attempt to take a meta-mathematical approach to what is normally just called chaos or interference, while in other ways Quantum Mechanics is certainly helping uncover sub atomic mysteries, it does not seem to help significantly on the macro and biologic scales.

Note, while there is little consensus among neurobiologists about how the brain performs recognition, pursuing a quantum approach to the mystery of the energy consumed by neurons in the brain does not seem like something we are ready to solve meaningfully.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #26941705 - 09/18/20 05:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: humans are the culmination of millions (billions?) of years of survival testing, and current biological sciences are the culmination of a few centuries of intellectual activity that is distracted by egos, arrogance, and vested interests.

when viewed as a whole, the human organism exhibits properties that are impossible to account for as a synthesis of the behaviors of parts.  with each layer of complexity, new properties emerge that are not possessed by the parts - collective properties form.  living systems have learned more about the laws of physics, then most physicists can possibly imagine!

it is not understood how the first cells arose...if all cells arise from preexisting cells, how did the first cell come into being?

cells are like a watch made up of hundreds of wheels, gears and parts.  if you want to know how it works, you need to know how it is put together.  current understandings of biology seem to stop at the molecular level, but there is much phenomena taking place in the quantum realm!




In a few centuries we've mapped a few billion years of evolution.
Witches were seen as of impossible complexity too.

To beat a wing does not mean to understand the action of ATP.
Evolution speaks nothing of the arrival of life, only the diversity thereof.

A watch can be understood.

You sound of upcoming quantum flapdoodlery. 

Quote:

thealienthatategod said: quantum biology (QB) studies the high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules.  it is the study of the systems that process energy and information  in the human body that are not biochemical, or hormonal, or of the nervous system.  in these communications, perception and action occur simultaneously in the body.  the substrate of this communication system is comprised of the fascia (connective tissues which are in all the cells throughout the body), genetic material, and most importantly, water.  what’s interesting about the question about how the first cell arose is each individual cell wall is composed of fascia, and the cells exist in a matrix of fascia, therefore, fascia must come into being before a new cell is formed.




Quantum biology is,
Quote:

Quantum biology is the study of applications of quantum mechanics and theoretical chemistry to biological objects and problems. Many biological processes involve the conversion of energy into forms that are usable for chemical transformations, and are quantum mechanical in nature.

Such processes involve chemical reactions, light absorption, formation of excited electronic states, transfer of excitation energy, and the transfer of electrons and protons (hydrogen ions) in chemical processes, such as photosynthesis, olfaction and cellular respiration.




Secondly, animal cells don't have cell walls.
Quote:

The cell wall is an outer protective membrane in many cells including plants, fungi, algae, and bacteria. Animal cells do not have a cell wall.




Quote:

thealienthatategod said: nerves conduct impulses with a certain velocity.  such as, if something is thrown at you and about to hit your eye, you will blink, this is a reflex, a fast reaction that allows the body to protect itself, yet there is a delay at each synapse when the information is communicated as one nerve stimulates another.




This is how synapses work..
Quote:

1. The cells shown here are called neurons. There are billions of neurons
throughout the body. The illustration in the circle is an example of the process
of neurotransmission.


2. If you hurt your foot, a message travels from your foot, via the neurons, to the brain.
For communication between neurons to take place, an electrical impulse triggers the
release of chemicals called neurotransmitters. Neurotransmitters are released into the
space between the two neurons. This space is called the synapse.

3. When neurons communicate, the neurotransmitters from one neuron are released, cross the synapse, and attach themselves to special molecules in the next neuron called receptors. Receptors receive and process the message, then send it on to the next neuron.

4. Eventually, the message reaches the brain. The brain then gives directions
about what to do next. In this case, the directions would be, “You hurt your foot on a tack. Sit down.”




Quote:

thealienthatategod said: QB suggests there is another coupling between sensation and action that operates at speeds faster than what the nervous system is capable of.  this consciousness, arising in the fascia, can sustain high speed interactions and communications across the bodies community of molecules where perception and action can occur simultaneously.  a special kind of consciousness arises that uses the entire fabric of the body as a sensory atenna and a communication system for producing responses that most only have the oppurtunity to get rare glimpses of.  it is far more sophisticated than neurological consciousness, because it is able to take in, store, and process far more information than humans can consciously know and access. it is a precognitive consciousness that you may hear atheletes talk about in peak athletic performances such as martial arts.




Unsurprisingly,
Quote:

You might have only a few gigabytes of storage space, similar to the space in an iPod or a USB flash drive. Yet neurons combine so that each one helps with many memories at a time, exponentially increasing the brain's memory storage capacity to something closer to around 2.5 petabytes (or a million gigabytes).




Quote:

thealienthatategod said: Albert Szent-Györgyi is the father of this science.  studying his work and that of his foremost students is a good place to start. this is a good introduction to the subject:
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/107555304322848931
the works of mae-wan ho are quite interesting, and this is a good introductory pdf on the subject.  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/255996190_Super-Conducting_Liquid_Crystalline_Water_Aligned_with_Collagen_Fibres_in_the_Fascia_as_Acupuncture_Meridians_of_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine

as with quantum field theory, quantum biology is plagued by new agers misinterpreting the scientific interpretations and ascribing them to their own new agey belief systems.

the biological systems studied in QB exhibit phenomena that are usually associated with superconductors.  fascia is in a liquid crystalline state, and this is what  gives the human  organism its exquisite sensitivity and responsiveness.

thanks to the liquid crystalline state of fascia noiseless intercommunication is possible that enables the organism to function as a coherent, coordinated whole, not just a synthesis of its parts.  within the fascia, the total force acting on any individual atom at any time, and therefore its behaviour, will depend on the positions and activities of all the other atoms in the organism.  the relationship between fascia/collagen and water is the key element in understanding biological quantum coherence.




You said it yourself,
Quote:

as with quantum field theory, quantum biology is plagued by new agers misinterpreting the scientific interpretations and ascribing them to their own new agey belief systems.




And finally I'll leave you with this,

Quote:

Amidst the plethora of flawed, implausible, and wasteful research on acupuncture and Chinese medicine, a 2002 study on the “Relationship of Acupuncture Points and Meridians to Connective Tissue Planes” stands out as the height of factual neglect. In it, Helene Langevin and Jason Yandow of the University of Vermont’s College of Medicine claim to have matched real anatomical structures with the elusive acupuncture “meridians.” It should be noted that the widely accepted term “meridian” is a metaphor coined by George SouliĂ© de Morant (1878 – 1955), a French delegate to China, and has no semantic relationship with the original Chinese word.2 The original designation is the composite word jing luo (經甥), which literally means “channel-network.” The term has been translated to English as chinglo channels, channels, vessels or more commonly, meridians. Debunking this study is of particular relevance because it is often used by acupuncturists and a wide range of other CAM providers to legitimize the meridian lore. The principle author, Helene Langevin, is a CAM celebrity and a member of the “Scientific Committee” of the International Fascia Research Congress, an organization dedicated to the “emerging field of Fascia Studies.” She is an Associate Professor of Neurology and the Director of the Program in Integrative Health at the University of Vermont; and has conducted multiple NCCAM-funded studies on the role of connective tissue in chronic pain, acupuncture and manual therapies.

This is what Langevin and Yandow wrote in their 2002 paper’s abstract:

Acupuncture meridians traditionally are believed to constitute channels connecting the surface of the body to internal organs. We hypothesize that the network of acupuncture points and meridians can be viewed as a representation of the network formed by interstitial connective tissue. This hypothesis is supported by ultrasound images showing connective tissue cleavage planes at acupuncture points in normal human subjects. To test this hypothesis, we mapped acupuncture points in serial gross anatomical sections through the human arm. We found an 80% correspondence between the sites of acupuncture points and the location of intermuscular or intramuscular connective tissue planes in postmortem tissue sections.3

What makes this study fundamentally flawed, despite its scientific appearance, is the fact that it is the embodiment of what I have elsewhere called “medical Orientalism.” By this term I mean a depiction of Eastern healing arts by Western authors, academics and researchers that is not generated from historical facts or reality, but from stereotypes that envision approaches to health and disease in the East as fundamentally dissimilar to the West. The historical facts do not support the fascial-planes hypothesis, and rather indicate that the Chinese concept of jing luo is quasi identical to the Greek notions of phlebes (blood vessels in general) and neura (ligaments, nerves, etc.). Indeed, as the classics scholar Elizabeth Craik has convincingly argued:

Chinese medicine resembles Hippocratic theory in that anatomical structures and orifices (perhaps better described as systems and processes) are seen in terms of the channels which link them to one another and to other areas of the body. Greek phlebes and Chinese mo are significant in physiology (normal–carrying blood and pneuma or qi) and pathology (abnormal–carrying noxious matter, inducing disease). Their supposed paths do not exactly coincide, but several are broadly similar (and more similar to each other than either is to the observed paths of arteries and veins). In particular, the route of the Chinese du channel (“governor vessel”) from spine to back of head carrying life force is similar to that of the Greek vessel carrying vital myelos. And the vessel centrally placed in the forehead in some Greek accounts is similar to the anterior continuation of the Chinese du channel. Furthermore, the parallel pairs of vessels symmetrically placed on either side of the du channel correspond with the parallel pairs of vessels postulated in many Greek accounts
 Originally in China there was no elaborate system of acupuncture points (for example, twenty-eight points on the du channel) with measurements, any more than in Hippocratic practice. In sum, we see similar channels, with similar paths and similar contents, the focus of similar treatment for similar medical conditions.4

The elusive and mysterious meridian system seems therefore to be nothing more than a rudimentary and prescientific model of blood vessels and nerves. Langevin and Yandow’s conceptual model can thus be seen as historically unfounded. It is also implausible because postulating an anatomically precise “medical gaze” for ancient and medieval physicians is anachronistic. As one reader (Dr. Le Petomaneon) pertinently commented on my previous post, The Cargo Cult of Acupuncture, this postulation “begs the question of how preindustrial Chinese researchers could have created an accurate map of meridians without the advanced technology it has taken for anyone to have a remotely credible claim to have detected them.” In fact, as Michel Foucault (1926-1984) has pointed out, it is only in 18th-century Europe that the body became something that could be mapped with precision.5 For millennia prior to that, anatomical structures that lay below the threshold of the visible were conceptualized according to mythology, astrology, and other figments of the imagination. Consider, for instance, the 17th-century medical manuscript by Yang Jizhou (杚继æŽČ) called the Zhenjiu Dacheng (é’ˆçžć€§æˆ), where the medical and astrological narratives are inseparable. This work, which is incorrectly translated as the Great Compendium of Acupuncture and Moxibustion, describes a medical gaze that is not directed towards the body and its anatomy, but towards the Heavens and astrology.6 The Zhenjiu Dacheng and other prescientific manuals of medicine in China are not exploratory guides about the fascial planes or other anatomical structures; they are manuals of medical astrology. This is why the original designations of the principal meridians (e.g., tae yang, jue yin) represent the angular position (hour angle) of the Sun (Table 1), and not the “physiological functions thought to be speciïŹcally related to each,” as Langevin and Yandow inaccurately state. The historian Paul Buell has argued that even the Yellow Emperor’s Inner Canon (é»„ćžć†…ç», Huangdi Neijing, 400-200 BC), the formative book of Chinese medicine, is as much an astrological compendium as a medical text.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-and-fascial-planes-junk-science-and-wasteful-research/




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26941754 - 09/18/20 05:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like your signature

it looks good begun exciting

not the way it looks after a suicide or during it...

I mean what you see depends on how you look so when one makes it less and less like becomes a less and less successfull viewer and gardener it becomes more boring and less exciting


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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