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InvisibleFerdinando
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Registered: 11/15/09
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26893452 - 08/22/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

yes the old redgreenvines you cant be serious from 2014

just that was hugely beneficial

like what that did

and there was one about meditation

etc etc.


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26893459 - 08/22/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Buddhism for the masses contains lots of beliefs that aren't really described in the core Buddhist teachings. So it depends on what you mean by "Buddhism". Monks go through a process of initiation where they are told some things which should be accepted should also be verified, none of which are nirvana while living or transmigration of a soul.

There are teachings which suggest one can lessen suffering by avoiding things that cause suffering (makes sense), but to live always entails some level of suffering.




So is it accurate or not to say that the core Buddhist teachings contain the assertion of death/rebirth, the wheel of karma, life is suffering, and the objective being to get off the wheel of suffering through various movements in the real world.  Can this be said? 

Obviously I am no expert on Buddhism.  But Laughingdog is saying that in Buddhism as opposed to Christianity and other 2 Abrahamic religions it makes no claims about "god" as the ultimate cause of this world.  Well if the above is true then I don't see how that's the case.  Buddhism would be saying that we are subject to an alternative realm that places us on the wheel of karma.  Imo this implies it as ultimate and a "first cause".


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Posts: 26,657
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893543 - 08/22/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Eh, just read the suttas and see for yourself.  Though just reading alone will probably mislead you. GL!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893544 - 08/22/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In Buddhism, the term rebirth could refer to a series of citta (mind moments) in which during up to 3 seconds a series of citta cleave into one self, before yielding to the next expression of self-hood for another 3 seconds followed by the next with a rebirth each time creating a chain of succession within your own skin.

For continuity with prevailing Hindu society, no argument was made against the interpretation that this is about being reborn as a chicken or a queen or a worm. no support for it is in the Buddhist sutras either.

For continuity with prevailing Hindu society, no argument was made against the interpretation of Karma as affecting rebirth, but the analysis of Buddhism and karma points more to the fact that we are being constantly reborn and that karma is largely fairly instant action in context of what you judge you deserve.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26893630 - 08/22/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm forced to take your word for it.  Yet according to history.com which I assume isn't a credible source Buddhism follows the assertion but Hinduism buys into deities, reincarnation, and all that fun stuff.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26893824 - 08/22/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So is it accurate or not to say that the core Buddhist teachings contain the assertion of death/rebirth, the wheel of karma, life is suffering, and the objective being to get off the wheel of suffering through various movements in the real world.  Can this be said? 

Obviously I am no expert on Buddhism.  But Laughingdog is saying that in Buddhism as opposed to Christianity and other 2 Abrahamic religions it makes no claims about "god" as the ultimate cause of this world.  Well if the above is true then I don't see how that's the case.  Buddhism would be saying that we are subject to an alternative realm that places us on the wheel of karma.  Imo this implies it as ultimate and a "first cause".




Yes basically, but why would that suggest an alternative realm or first cause? The refutation of such ideas are why we have Buddhism instead of just Hinduism.

The Buddha refuted the idea that there was a creator God. He didn't explicitly say there wasn't... but who knows such things? Whether there is or is not a God is beside the point of Buddhism.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26893871 - 08/22/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent point, Rahz. And I think in an ideal society, whether or not there is a God or gods is beside the point of living one's life. Hunter-gatherers had a leg up on that.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26893888 - 08/22/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Reincarnation go brrrrrrrr.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26893937 - 08/22/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
So is it accurate or not to say that the core Buddhist teachings contain the assertion of death/rebirth, the wheel of karma, life is suffering, and the objective being to get off the wheel of suffering through various movements in the real world.  Can this be said? 

Obviously I am no expert on Buddhism.  But Laughingdog is saying that in Buddhism as opposed to Christianity and other 2 Abrahamic religions it makes no claims about "god" as the ultimate cause of this world.  Well if the above is true then I don't see how that's the case.  Buddhism would be saying that we are subject to an alternative realm that places us on the wheel of karma.  Imo this implies it as ultimate and a "first cause".




Yes basically, but why would that suggest an alternative realm or first cause? The refutation of such ideas are why we have Buddhism instead of just Hinduism.

The Buddha refuted the idea that there was a creator God. He didn't explicitly say there wasn't... but who knows such things? Whether there is or is not a God is beside the point of Buddhism.




Buddha's analysis actually goes deeper, than the notion of God, or a first cause.
The very notion of 'who you think you are', is attacked, and taken apart step by step in the sutras.
Like almost all other religions Buddhism split, up into many different sects after his death, and some of these sects, as is often the case with such split ups, simplified the teachings for the masses.
So you can find all sorts of stuff about Devas and multiple heavens, if you go searching for it.
The core of the teaching however deals with how to end suffering thru understanding and experiencing non-self, impermanence, & interdependence, at a level beyond just verbal & intellectual understanding.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26894235 - 08/22/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I just struggle to buy the idea that "taking yourself apart" reduces suffering.  Sure, within the confines of a proper context it may flourish but christ in the United States I find it hard to believe that "taking oneself apart" will reduce suffering.

Which is to say that if one is Buddhist they ought to flee to Tibet and really flourish within the tradition.  Otherwise, false assertions pretending to be the core tenets will take hold or you'll just ruin yourself in the US by trying to achieve liberation from the self.

It seems the doctrines of Buddhism are at odds with a savagely driven material culture in my view.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26894667 - 08/23/20 01:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

.  IMO you assume much knowledge and experience and familiarity with both Buddhism and esoteric & meditative traditions that you do not have. Without some background or some curiosity to learn about such matters, you will likely cling to the opinions you already have.
.  This would seem to make trading opinions on the subject, in this forum pointless, IMO.
Anybody with curiosity can find more info. on these matters on the web (as free books o &/ or pdfs., and free audio dharma talks, free movies on Youtube, and entire websites and blogs) than they could consume in may lifetimes, all free, and by respected experts, on the subject.
My 2 cents, (beyond what I already conveyed as accurately as possible) is totally unnecessary.


Edited by laughingdog (08/23/20 01:25 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26894715 - 08/23/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Buddhist stuff in my opinion is translated broadly, abagavabita kind of stuff, very open to interpretation.

Is it so bad to be reincarnated as a mango tree? That's one of my hopes, to feed a mango seed and become one with a tree when my passing time arrives.

To one day let my juicy fruits slip through some happy people.
:wutermelon:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26895032 - 08/23/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

there has been lot destruction due to belief

like ice

thus I think we should educate about what life means in schools

what is the meaning of life or what is proper way to live

like 8fold path

what must we do and what not


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with our love with our love we could save the world


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26895635 - 08/23/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
I just struggle to buy the idea that "taking yourself apart" reduces suffering.  Sure, within the confines of a proper context it may flourish but christ in the United States I find it hard to believe that "taking oneself apart" will reduce suffering.

Which is to say that if one is Buddhist they ought to flee to Tibet and really flourish within the tradition.  Otherwise, false assertions pretending to be the core tenets will take hold or you'll just ruin yourself in the US by trying to achieve liberation from the self.




There's a perspective in the Western world of monastic Buddhism being the Buddhism to practice. If being a monk doesn't seem like a good idea, trying to achieve full enlightenment is not the best of ideas. Even in Buddhist regions, common people work on the eight fold path but aren't required to stick to a regime nor are they expected to attain supreme Buddhahood. At one point, and in practice it may still be so, common people were not allowed full access to the Pali canon.

I think certain things like understanding the 4 noble truths are attainable by most at some point in life. And for relevance they are considered universal truths so one doesn't need to be Buddhist or even have heard of it to gain that insight, which is just that the incessant desires of life don't bring lasting happiness and that the absence of desire does constitute happiness and that getting there is a matter of being a decent person (8 fold path). Perfection is unrealistic, but even the desire for perfection is one that can be done without.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (08/23/20 04:05 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,798
Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26895802 - 08/23/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some context. Bhagavan as such and Buddha.

Quote:

Bhagavān (Sanskrit:Â à€­à€—à€”à€Ÿà€šà„, Bhagavān) or Bhagwan(sometimes translated as "Lord") is an epithet for a deity, particularly for the deities of Krishna, Rama and other avatars of Lord Vishnu in Vaishnavism and for Lord Shiva in the Shaivism tradition of Hinduism. The term is used by Jains to refer to the Tirthankaras, particularly Mahavira, and by Buddhists to refer to Lord Buddha in India. In many parts of India and South Asia, Bhagavān represents the abstract concept of a universal God to Hindus who are spiritual and religious but do not worship a specific deity. Bhagavān itself is an acronym of the combination of the 5 elements of nature. Bha means Bhoomi (Earth), Ga means gaggan (Space/Sky), Va means Vayu (Air), A means Agni (Fire) and finally, N means Neer (Water)
________

Some tribes of India claim that the Sharad Baba Bhagavan is the creator of the universe. It also says that suffering and prosperity happens at the same time for different beings. It acknowledges the randomness of the world and says we should follow our dharma to do what little we can for the universe.
________

He who understands the creation and dissolution, the appearance and disappearance of beings, the wisdom and ignorance, should be called Bhagavān.

— Vishnu Purana, VI.5.78 

The same text defines Bhaga and provides the etymological roots as follows as translated by Wilson,

Knowledge is of two kinds, that which is derived from scripture, and that which is derived from reflection. Brahma that is the word is composed of scripture; Brahma that is supreme is produced of reflection. Ignorance is utter darkness, in which knowledge, obtained through any sense (as that of hearing), shines like a lamp; but the knowledge that is derived from reflection breaks upon the obscurity like the sun. (...) That which is imperceptible, undecaying, inconceivable, unborn, inexhaustible, indescribable; which has neither form, nor hands, nor feet; which is almighty, omnipresent, eternal; the cause of all things, and without cause; permeating all, itself unpenetrated, and from which all things proceed; that is the object which the wise behold, that is Brahma, that is the supreme state, that is the subject of contemplation to those who desire liberation, that is the thing spoken of by the Vedas, the infinitely subtle, supreme condition of Vishnu.
That essence of the supreme is defined by the term Bhagavat. The word Bhagavat is the denomination of that primeval and eternal God: and he who fully understands the meaning of that expression is possessed of holy wisdom, the sum, and substance of the Vedas. The word Bhagavat is a convenient form to be used in the adoration of that supreme being, to whom no term is applicable; and therefore Bhagavat expresses that supreme spirit, which is individual, almighty, and the cause of causes of all things. The letter Bh implies the cherisher and supporter of the universe. By ga is understood the leader, impeller, or creator. The disyllable Bhagaindicates the six properties, dominion, might, glory, splendor, wisdom, and dispassion. The purport of the letter va is that elemental spirit in which all beings exist, and which exists in all beings. And thus this great word Bhagavan is the name of Våsudeva, who is one with the supreme Brahma, and of no one else. This word, therefore, which is the general denomination of an adorable object, is not used in reference to the supreme in a general, but a special signification. When applied to any other (thing or person) it is used in its customary or general import. In the latter case, it may purport one who knows the origin and end and revolutions of beings, and what is wisdom, what ignorance. In the former, it denotes wisdom, energy, power, dominion, might, glory, without end, and without defect.





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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26895833 - 08/23/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
There's a perspective in the Western world of monastic Buddhism being the Buddhism to practice. If being a monk doesn't seem like a good idea, trying to achieve full enlightenment is not the best of ideas. Even in Buddhist regions, common people work on the eight fold path but aren't required to stick to a regime nor are they expected to attain supreme Buddhahood. At one point, and in practice it may still be so, common people were not allowed full access to the Pali canon.

I think certain things like understanding the 4 noble truths are attainable by most at some point in life. And for relevance they are considered universal truths so one doesn't need to be Buddhist or even have heard of it to gain that insight, which is just that the incessant desires of life don't bring lasting happiness and that the absence of desire does constitute happiness and that getting there is a matter of being a decent person (8 fold path). Perfection is unrealistic, but even the desire for perfection is one that can be done without.




Yeah that's for sure.  There must be a middle ground between saying to hell with it and achieving full Buddhahood.  Really it's the case with almost anything I guess.  I was only getting at the likelihood that Buddhism being a swim upriver in a culture that doesn't really entertain it.  Nevertheless it can be done. 

So I wonder if its even accurate to refer to Buddhism as a religion?  Being that it doesn't make any meta physical claims.  Seems like a way of life or a practice which brings me back to the likelihood of it being difficult in a culture that doesn't really enjoy it.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26896515 - 08/24/20 07:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Even though Buddhism isn't a religion is has been made one through the influence of Hinduism and other regional cultures. I don't live in a Buddhist region but I get the idea there's some wiggle room on reincarnation and the afterlife. Most people seem to need that.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26896692 - 08/24/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

exactly,
both easy metaphor and gentle smiling keeps the wheel of life turning.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26897812 - 08/24/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:sun:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26898660 - 08/25/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Even though Buddhism isn't a religion is has been made one through the influence of Hinduism and other regional cultures. I don't live in a Buddhist region but I get the idea there's some wiggle room on reincarnation and the afterlife. Most people seem to need that.




.  Some "Buddhists" argue about  reincarnation  fiercely, others call themselves "Secular Buddhists".
.    In particular, there are battles about the ambiguous 12 fold (it even has various different numbers of steps in different versions) "chain of causation" or "dependent origination", or Paticca-samuppada. There is even a 3 lives interpretation, vs. a view that sees self arising and vanishing micro moment by micro moment.

.    Of course psychedelics may clarify the matter, ... or not ... apparently folks milage varies quite a bit ...

.    Historically before Buddhism, in Hinduism reincarnation, served the purpose of justifying the Indian caste system, which was about as nasty, (or perhaps in some ways nastier) as slavery (pre civil-war) in the USA.
.    So the idea of reincarnation is not just about new age Californians claiming they were someone famous in a past life, or Tibetans claiming someone is the reincarnation of a famous 'Lama'; but actually has a very dark history, just like the Christian notion of hell, and the Catholic Pope selling "indulgences" in medieval Europe.
.    So the idea of reincarnation, was used to justify cruelty, by Hinduism.
.    Historically, (as Buddhism came after Hinduism was established), - by denying an immortal soul, Buddhism aimed to end this practice, of justifying abuse, and raise folks consciousness.
.  Or more accurately  Gotama, Siddhartha's teachings were politically liberating as well as having profound philosophical and practical implications for ending suffering, on more than one level.


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