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InvisibleRahz
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Evolution, religion probability and physics * 2
    #26889813 - 08/20/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A theory that many scientists have a problem with is evolution. Even non religious people suggest there's a lack of evidence and lack of natural complexity required to form life in the first place. Here's an interesting video where mathematicians discuss the mind boggling complexity it takes to "build" an organism or even a cell.



But it should also be pointed out that there is ongoing research into molecular formation in prebiotic environments. While even a cell that functions, collects and uses energy and reproduces is extremely complex, the components that form the cell are less so. The one thing all cells have in common is a membrane. Therefore if we want to produce life a membrane seems like one of the first components necessary to get to a point of function and reproduction.

Fatty acids can form in nature. A phospholipid is several fatty acids connected to a negatively charged phosphate group. Phospholipids form cell membranes and they could form in water with fatty acids and phosphate groups bonding. I haven't seen any information on spontaneous formation of phosphate groups but they're made in labs through chemical reactions. Phospholipids bonding together would logically tend to form sheets and/or sphereoids. A phospholipid sphereoid is basically a cell membrane. It's not functioning or reproducing but it does create a container in which energy exchange can take place and offers protection from the environment where the next step in protocell formation could take place.

If biology is overpoweringly complex, the Earth is a huge laboratory in which to put it in small terms that are easily understandable, can conduct trillions of trillions of experiments. An unfathomable number of chances for a cell to form. I have of course left out a number of steps, and gaps in knowledge prevents suggesting how cells actually emerge... but to say it's impossible is short sighted. Complexity of procedure is a human problem.

Evolution is considered a religion by many. What do you think?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26889885 - 08/20/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The way I look at it is to suppose that evolutionary theory is correct, but incomplete. I certainly do not feel design is required for living structures to come into existence; conversely, purely random chance doesn't do it for me, either.

It is very difficult to imagine how an RNA or DNA cell could have formed spontaneously, and no human has yet been able to do it, but this does not mean there is not a reasonable explanation. As you say, though, this is all extraordinarily complex stuff.

I do not think evolution is a religion by any means, and it explains a lot. I think where it packs its weakest punch is in its inability to say anything about mutations but that they are random, and selected for based upon environment. (Neo-Darwinian theory, incidentally, explicitly posits no connection between the genome and the environment. I feel this is clearly wrong.) Seemingly, we have to have a better understanding about the relationship between the genome and its environment, AND the degree of contingency involved in mutation, and therefore what eventually gets selected for.

But religion, no. It's highly scientifically useful and successful.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26890013 - 08/20/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution is materialism hashed out and studied.  I take smart peoples word on it and it makes sense.  Religion would probably have to refer to the practice and conscious movement of an appeal to the spiritual and fictitious. 

That being said I would use an experimental phrase and say that there are many who would be considered evolutionary fundamentalists who like the religious fundamentalists will lose their marbles if their belief in the fruits of evolutionary theory are not the dominant narrative.

Usually the assault comes from the religious fundamentalist where the empiricist retaliates.  Although I've seen the empirically determined attack a down to earth believer who was only minding his business.  So it happens both ways.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26890400 - 08/20/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

the membrane that catalyzes the formation of more membrane is what is needed to begin.
kind of a magic carpet that adds and exchanges chemicals and continues to catalyze more self production.
I guess this went on long enough to generate some contained spheroids and those with different chemistries could do different things.

mostly make more bubbles of water & gas and more bubbles of water and gas - eventually some interesting things begin to happen with amino acids and some gizmo-ish bubbles begin to generate DNA and RNA and everything goes balistically from there, then.

it can happen in air or no air it could happen with carbon or no carbon once a film can make more film and spheres form something can potentially become life.

all in the membrane


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26890487 - 08/20/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
A theory that many scientists have a problem with is evolution. Even non religious people suggest there's a lack of evidence and lack of natural complexity required to form life in the first place. Here's an interesting video where mathematicians discuss the mind boggling complexity it takes to "build" an organism or even a cell..........Evolution is considered a religion by many. What do you think?




.  IMO people misunderstand the role of science religion and “spirituality”

.  Is Buddhism a religion? According to Ajahn Brahm, the answer is:
“Yes…
for tax purposes!”
.  Actually Buddhism doesn’t take a position on ‘God’, or the particulars of ‘the self’;
it just denies that the self is: stable, unitary, autonomous, & permanent.
It is very careful about delineating this view, and nothing more.
It states its aim as only correcting misperceptions that cause suffering, not creating new systems of thought & conceptions to argue about.

.  But ‘God’ as ultimate cause is the domain of other religions. But of course the human mind can in actuality imagine no such thing as an “ultimate cause”, as our minds are made to deal with reality in order to help us survive and we can never encounter anything that has an ultimate and certain cause. Also space & time, have no limits or origins, anyone has ever experienced. So religion demands a suspension of critical thought.

.  Science explains individual things, like how internal combustion engines. work. This is how experiments are designed: to answer specific questions.
The modern fascination with “the Big Bang” harkens back to the days when science had to ‘kowtow’ to the Christian church and pope, and the need to get folks to believe in a dogmatic cosmology. So now we get people misunderstanding the role of science and thinking (the ‘theory’ of) evolution must account for everything. It accounts for antibiotic resistant bacteria very nicely, and for pesticide resistant insects, very nicely, and even predicts such things. It is not, and never was a theory of the origin of life.

.  Science is about reason, and religion demands a suspension of critical thought. To expect science to explain everything is to expect science to deny reason, as the idea of ‘ultimate causes’ is itself unreasonable. What people expect from science today is no different from what the church expected in Galileo Galilei’s time.

.  People want to have their cake and eat it too. But life forces choices. Taoism accepts that uncertainty, mystery, and paradox are inescapable aspects of feeling fully alive. People who follow (for example the 3 big middle eastern religions (in spite of their having a long history of persecuting one another) are all wedded to the idea of a vengeful paternal god that takes a personal interest in humans. And they expect this ‘God’ to take the uncertainty, mystery, and paradox out of life so that they can feel  safe, right, special, and justified, in their way of life and rituals. And now they expect that science should also justify them. Of course such people do not have the mental tools to gain perspective on the larger picture, of how minds function.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26891144 - 08/21/20 06:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think that if you're on the fence about evolution that you don't believe in it and are holding out for some other explanation that better fits what you want the natural world to look like.

We can see evolution, it's been observed in the lab and Lenskis E.coli experiment is a fine example.

For me it's a matter of if you do believe in evolution at all, you won't say or suggest it stopped or will at some point.

Like if you believe in gravity, there might be a more fundamental explanation underlying it, but you don't say gravity isn't real or undermine it with suggestions it might not be what it is.

Then again, evolution isn't about the origin of life but the origin of the diversity of life.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: sudly]
    #26891312 - 08/21/20 08:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

and gravity doesn't stop either.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26891909 - 08/21/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Actually Buddhism doesn’t take a position on ‘God’, or the particulars of ‘the self’;
it just denies that the self is: stable, unitary, autonomous, & permanent.
It is very careful about delineating this view, and nothing more.
It states its aim as only correcting misperceptions that cause suffering, not creating new systems of thought & conceptions to argue about.





The cycle of death/rebirth.  This is a transcendental assertion.  By subscribing to the transcendental authority of Buddism you are saved.  If you don't subscribe you suffer the wheel of life and death.  I don't see how this is fundamentally different from the big 3.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26891930 - 08/21/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Re: the OP

.  As Sudly & I point out, folks misunderstand, both science in general and the theory of evolution in particular. Evolution is not a theory that suggests life aims for some sort of perfection, that aims to produce morality, or consciousness. And it is not a theory of the origin of life.

.  On the one had as Sudly points out it has been observed ( and a movie made of it ) evolving, using bacteria in the lab. And it has made numerous predictions, that have been verified.

.  On the other hand, since the discovery of DNA, and horizontal gene transfer or epigenetics, and the discovery that that not all genes code for proteins, but that some instead work as switches to turn other genes off & on, and that much of the genome, seems to show the evidence of past interaction with viruses, the theory needs some tweaking.

.  Much may depend on the level at which we look at things. This is what happens between quantum physics and relativity. At one level the human body is composed of more bacteria than human cells (the micro-biome) and every human cell contains mitochondria, which has its own DNA, and probably had non-human origins.
.  In other words, even on the physical level, we are not clear cut individual identities, but rather more like 'chimera'. This is probably true for many animals, as mitochondrion are not unique to us. The proper functioning of the placenta also depends on viruses.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=+the+placenta+and+virus&t=hk&ia=web
.  So the notion that animals are independent entities, is just a sort of convenient generalization or half truth. Ecology already hinted at this, before all these recent discoveries began to make such a conclusion more apparent. But the popular consciousness, of course is unaware of this, and busy identifying with all sorts of falsehoods.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26891965 - 08/21/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Actually Buddhism doesn’t take a position on ‘God’, or the particulars of ‘the self’;
it just denies that the self is: stable, unitary, autonomous, & permanent.
It is very careful about delineating this view, and nothing more.
It states its aim as only correcting misperceptions that cause suffering, not creating new systems of thought & conceptions to argue about.





The cycle of death/rebirth.  This is a transcendental assertion.  By subscribing to the transcendental authority of Buddism you are saved.  If you don't subscribe you suffer the wheel of life and death.  I don't see how this is fundamentally different from the big 3.




.  This is not my understanding of Buddhism. One does not "get saved" by accepting any sort of authority, quite the contrary, much time meditating is expected. And there are very well known quotes that reject this notion, by Buddha himself. If you are interested or curious just a little web browsing will verify this.
.  In any case the only reason Buddhism was referred to as part of my analysis, had to do with the issue of the consequences, of expecting 'ultimate explanations', and what the actual function of science is.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26891980 - 08/21/20 03:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Well that's part of it.  Meditate and get off the wheel.  I'm sure there are many other expectations that quicken the process.  Don't and ye shall suffer longer.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26891994 - 08/21/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So I don't see how this is asserted as being any less ultimate than the others.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26892016 - 08/21/20 03:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree somewhat about nearly 80% of what got written  here, all I want to say, is "You can't be serious."


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26892076 - 08/21/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You would have to say that I must be 20% serious.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26892089 - 08/21/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You sound clever with it, I’ll give you that - but on a whole something about it doesn’t sit well in my stomach.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (09/02/20 05:59 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892145 - 08/21/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Evolution is a theory that suggests we evolved in our entirety.

Quote:

Proximate cause refers to the “how” questions related to animal behavior. Ultimate cause refers to “why” questions related to animal behavior. ... Proximate causes explain the genetic, developmental, and physiological processes responsible for animal behavior...




Quote:

To summarize: for the activities of living things, science can and does answer the why question and assigns a final cause. However, for non-living things science has not found the final cause concept to be useful and has eliminated it based on parsimony. Aristotle, his followers and disciples made the mistake of anthropomorphizing nature and assigning to it causes that are only appropriate to humans or, at best, living things.

https://www.quantumdiaries.org/2011/12/16/can-science-answer-the-why-question/




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26892182 - 08/21/20 05:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
You sound clever but uniformed.  That’s too bad.




:foreveralone:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26892420 - 08/21/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Well that's part of it.  Meditate and get off the wheel.  I'm sure there are many other expectations that quicken the process.  Don't and ye shall suffer longer.




Buddhism for the masses contains lots of beliefs that aren't really described in the core Buddhist teachings. So it depends on what you mean by "Buddhism". Monks go through a process of initiation where they are told some things which should be accepted should also be verified, none of which are nirvana while living or transmigration of a soul.

There are teachings which suggest one can lessen suffering by avoiding things that cause suffering (makes sense), but to live always entails some level of suffering.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: Rahz]
    #26892588 - 08/21/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Shinzen distinguishes between pain and suffering. It seems a valid and useful difference and has to do with whether or not one resists sensations.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Shinzen , pain and suffering&t=hw&ia=web

- - - - - - - - - - - -

what these seeming weirdos are into and how they do it I don't have a clue

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=human suspension&t=hw&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

- - - - - - - - - - -

Jack Schwarz's total mastery of both pain, bleeding, & infection, also remains a mystery,
but it is very interesting,
although he was not able to teach it to anyone else as far as I know.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Shinzen's teachings however, very many have found very useful.




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Evolution, religion probability and physics [Re: laughingdog]
    #26892915 - 08/22/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

pain is an attribute of sensation - painful touch, painfully loud sound, painfully bright light, painfully cold ice...

suffering is a mental process with recalled body feelings that present as painful.  -->trauma


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