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OfflineTripsten
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The "Overman" And society today?
    #26886597 - 08/18/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A two part question and discussion. And later a possible group chat if anyone is down.

A - What are the Zarathustrian principals which one would live by in order to live as a "Bridge to the Overman", as you interpreted them. ( I realize different people will likely have different ideas of this. )

B - What forms of government / society would allow for the cultivation of this.

Answer one or both, and should discussion break out lets keep it civil.

EDIT * - Abstract ideas ( and definitions ) of government and society are welcome of course.


Edited by Tripsten (08/18/20 12:02 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26886727 - 08/18/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

knowledge should be made available in the most widely accessible methods: print, digital, web. But how things feel in real time is an elusive and transient phenomenon. Saints and magic etc. have to be experienced in real time directly, they are not like other information, data.

Living visionaries like Zarathustra and all who followed can directly share their inspired presence with a few hundred people directly, and even among those fortunate members of humanity, only a very few will catch on to what it is that makes his visionary presence so wonderful.

I do not see any realistic way for a government to be involved except to tolerate visionaries.

Making it bigger than that makes it less real - less accessible... live telecasts are not the same, but people will try to make a buck from it or claim that others need to hear what he has to say.

even if nobody follows the meaning.

cultivation is dilution.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26886749 - 08/18/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Tripsten said:
A two part question and discussion. And later a possible group chat if anyone is down.

A - What are the Zarathustrian principals which one would live by in order to live as a "Bridge to the Overman", as you interpreted them. ( I realize different people will likely have different ideas of this. )

B - What forms of government / society would allow for the cultivation of this.

Answer one or both, and should discussion break out lets keep it civil.

EDIT * - Abstract ideas ( and definitions ) of government and society are welcome of course.




Well I would question you back
Taoism puts forward the idea that to pursue virtue results in the opposite,
or the idea that 'reality' is in many ways paradoxical...

By contrast, Perhaps, Nietzsche's idea of the 'Overman'  seems dualistic or just 2 dimensional.

So the question is which concept provides a better compass, and is a compass even necessary?


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26886913 - 08/18/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I would say that to know the true Zarathustrian principals would answer that.

Essentially it is a way of life which involves true freedom to the individual. Often times I wonder if law the way our societies practice it , takes away the responsibility of the individual to form their own ethical and morale code.
To live by Zarathustrian principal is to live by the knowledge that a compass never existed. That language has created a second world in our minds which is ā€œlikeā€ yet ā€œunlikeā€ the real world which we live in. It is living for the future and enjoying the moment at once. The path of the warrior and the artist.

I feel current mode of government presents an unspoken contract between the individual and state which sacrifices true , raw freedom for comfort and security. And I would argue that nothin greater will come from the humanity that lives in such a way.
In fact you would find many Taoist ideas in Zarathustran philosophy, ( as you also would in hermetic philosophy, or The Book of Five Rings, as truth and common sense is just what it is and so is repeated through many knowledge traditions )


Edited by Tripsten (08/18/20 02:52 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26886959 - 08/18/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds to me like you have a lot of concepts and ideals, that you are juggling in your mind. What exactly you hope to obtain, from fancier and fancier concepts and ideals, (than the usual garden variety concepts) seems a mystery though.

I also doubt there is much in common between Taoism (by which I mean Lao Tzu  & Chuang Tzu, & not the later search for immortality ) & Nietzsche. Although, of course if one is vague enough, and broad enough, anything can be made to have something in common with anything else.


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26887061 - 08/18/20 04:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think you misunderstand me entirely
But that’s alright , šŸ¤·šŸ»ā€ā™‚ļø Some just don’t understand each other.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26887119 - 08/18/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's a hundred page Harvard thesis connecting Nietzsche with Taoism.




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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26887151 - 08/18/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like you are barking up the Libertarian tree.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26887208 - 08/18/20 05:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The despot?



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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26887241 - 08/18/20 06:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Tripsten said:
B - What forms of government / society would allow for the cultivation of this.





Well it seems to me that the traits of patriarchy, hierarchy, and theocracy would benefit cultivation for a large swath of the existing practitioners. Patriarchy because it has roots in a patriarchy and therefore it is patriarchal in perspective and will benefit (speak to) a patriarchal society the most. Hierarchy because one needs something to strive for. And theocracy because it allows for unilateral decision making which eliminates doubt and resistance.

Those things would cultivate someone who earnestly strives for the acceptance brought on by meeting the moral and behavioral requirements.


Quote:

Tripsten said:
To live by Zarathustrian principal is to live by the knowledge that a compass never existed. That language has created a second world in our minds which is ā€œlikeā€ yet ā€œunlikeā€ the real world which we live in. It is living for the future and enjoying the moment at once. The path of the warrior and the artist.




If you can do this I think you are on to something that will work quite well in life as I see it.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Kickle]
    #26887255 - 08/18/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

@Buster

Nice šŸ˜ŽšŸ‘‰

@Kickle.
I can see the reasoning of some of that. I can see how it’s patriarchally influenced at least.
But for hierarchy being a means of what to strive for I would try and replace that with ā€œThe Overmanā€ itself being what the society strives for. The Overman of course just being the philosophical idea of ā€œthe next evolution of manā€ which is simply my just things like the realization of compass never existing. Like the quote

ā€œIf you have a virtue my brother, you have her in common with no one.ā€ Meaning that right and wrong is decided by the individual. A society structured around the individuals new found freedom to actualize himself , where the individual is taught to manifest his wild and animalistic energies and desires into deeper and deeper forms of expression. This in my mind would biome a culture where greatness and understanding are the norms. Where freedom is every day life and takes care of itself.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26887296 - 08/18/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A society without a hierarchy doesn't make any sense to me. A society will always value some things over others. And those who possess the valued qualities will rise in status and influence. That process is a large part of what motivates us (the people) to move in the directions that we do.

If your dream society values understanding then that's what those at the top should possess to an inordinate degree.

What is the alternative? Homogeneity where everyone is the same? Everyone possesses the valued traits in equal measure?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Kickle]
    #26887380 - 08/18/20 07:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
A society without a hierarchy doesn't make any sense to me. A society will always value some things over others. And those who possess the valued qualities will rise in status and influence. That process is a large part of what motivates us (the people) to move in the directions that we do.

If your dream society values understanding then that's what those at the top should possess to an inordinate degree.

What is the alternative? Homogeneity where everyone is the same? Everyone possesses the valued traits in equal measure?




Mmmmm I see what your saying , I was attaching what hierarchy means to a country like America , to the word when you said it.
No that makes sense to me. But idk that that necessarily means that they would rise in power over others if the societies corps principal is the sustainment of near total self freedom. ( society of course just being defined as a people’s which coexist with each other in a community type setting )


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26887436 - 08/18/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

well if you can think of a way let me know

personally I think that was at least one of the ideals of democracy. that we would be responsible and moral enough as a populace to elect our own officials and steer a country in a way that continually evolved and became better. But, uh...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26887515 - 08/18/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
]Here'sa hundred page Harvard thesis connecting Nietzsche with Taoism.





that you found somebody else's thinking to confirm a belief you may have, (or just to prove me wrong for some strange reason) but don't have a single thought of your own, ---says more, to me,  than the essay possibly could.

Buddhism came from india to China, where it mixed with Taoism. Why? Because they are compatible. And Buddhism is into 'non-self', So Taoism is not about perfecting a non existing, supposedly permanent, unitary, & stable self.

Nietzsche's idea of the 'overman' is a very romanticized idea, of his ideal of human potential. Chung Tzu's Taoism is full of humor, not European romanticism. And Lao Tzu is very careful to emphasize both paradox and mystery, and simply acting naturally and simply.

How someone twisted this to show some Harvard profs, how clever he is, would seem to prove nothing.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26887559 - 08/18/20 10:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's several more hits that may conform more with your bent.


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26887714 - 08/19/20 04:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ya jeez , what’s got him so riled up šŸ˜‚

Like , how dare you challenge something he said on a forum for discussing ideas , ā€œfor some strange reasonā€ , like you’re attacking him or something.


Edited by Tripsten (08/19/20 04:30 AM)


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26887736 - 08/19/20 04:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that the overman notion is very romanticized, and yet someone like Lao Tzu is nothing but the idea of Nietszche's overman made flesh, whether he emphasises simplicity or not... As are all of the great sages and saints.

"God can be realized through all paths. All religions are true. The important thing is to reach the roof. You can reach it by stone stairs or by wooden stairs or by bamboo steps or by a rope. You can also climb up by a bamboo pole."


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Tripsten]
    #26887747 - 08/19/20 05:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Tripsten said:
Ya jeez , what’s got him so riled up šŸ˜‚






A T-shirt cannon beats a yeet.


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OfflineTripsten
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Re: The "Overman" And society today? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26887753 - 08/19/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed


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