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GandalfSon
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Social norms and “Playing by the rules”
#26882603 - 08/16/20 12:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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So there has been a generally consistent theme in my thoughts during my last several trips and that is this general concept of “playing by the rules” and “cheating”.
At a very fundamental level all social groups from your circle of friends to the global human population have various ideas about what rules we generally agree to and expect others to follow. This is great as long as others are playing the same “game” as you but it’s really stupid to get angry when someone playing a different game doesn’t play by your rules right? Could you imagine playing monopoly and then getting angry at someone playing football for not yelling when they passed go? Absurd right?
But this is common for example when a religious person uses their scripture to try and convince someone that -their- religion is wrong, or when applying one’s own values to somebody else and then judging them for failing your expectations.
What I really like about this thought process is that it separates judgement of people and behavior. For example I can believe (by my rules) that you are wrong but recognizing that isn’t how you “play” I know that I have no authority to criticize or change you.
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On the other hand, this does not lead to moral relativism or rejection of absolute truth as it totally leaves the concept of debate or edification open. It just leads to this idea that I can only cite evidence we both see as true when making my argument. E.G. a Catholic and a Protestant can debate the Gospels but a Christian debating a Jew or Muslim would need to lean on the Torah to so that their argument is based on something concrete that both can accept as true. If you do not accept their “rules” that define an argument as valid than there is no way you can be responsible for failing to honor them.
Just a random musing.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon]
#26882815 - 08/16/20 06:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Talking about Custom, my dad was in a branch of the Navy and spent time in England where I went to school. I joined the American Army during peace-time because it paid more than the English Army and I didn't want to serve in Belfast Ireland. An English lad coming straight over the pond to join the American Army presented a culture clash, the main point being implied brutalism of High-school jocks and Seniors over freshmen. But it never materialized. In England the hazing was explicit in literature whereas in America the bullying is more overtly displayed in the media/TV. I live a sheltered life and apparently that shelter accompanies me in my walks simply, perhaps, because I do not subscribe to the overt bullying that mainstream media in America appears to cultivate.
Of course I was a lad across the pond in the 60's and 70's and the culture may have changed over there.
Edited by Buster_Brown (08/16/20 06:27 AM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon]
#26882832 - 08/16/20 06:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Take for example campervan etiquette, after 10pm it's generally accepted that volume should be kept to a minimum, yet sometimes there's the odd caravan company that parties till 2am with music blaring and people kept up all night.
If this happens in a paid campervan site then there is a right for others to complain, since they are actually paying for the service of habitation.
Yet if it's a free campervan site by the side of the road, that right is limited, as no service was payed for. However, common courtesy can be a good first step.
Like if someone is playing music super loud, it's okay to ask if the volume could be turned down to help others sleep for safe driving the next day.
Jumping the gun and asking them to turn off the music to let you sleep, at a site you havent paid for isnt clearly a right imo.
Essentially I think that compromise is a great tool or first step for those not playing by 'the rules', and that if your suggestion of compromise is met with being spat at, then maybe its the time to stoop lower to their level.
E.g. if you ask someone to reduce their volume after 10 and they tell you to deal with it because it's just noise, you can then take the next step and drive up to their campsite and beep your horn at them till they jump up and yell what your problem is when you tell them it's just noise.
Alternatively you could suggest a compromise (lowered volume), and if they take it aboard thats dandy, and if they dont, you still said your point and can find comfort in knowledge your neighbours are not compassionate.
How this converts to religion? Well, not telling someone to quit their religion is a good start. Making the suggestion of how 2 bears mauling 42 children over a comment on hair can be a disturbing image, may be a way of lowering a religious discussion to compromise, among other more poignant articles.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: sudly]
#26882906 - 08/16/20 07:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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religion as a team sport?
maybe we need to have religious Olympics: competitive prayer sports???
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon]
#26883394 - 08/16/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Generally as soon as see some fucks rule book I want to rip it up. I have some courtesy but it only extends so far.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: redgreenvines]
#26883776 - 08/16/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: religion as a team sport?
maybe we need to have religious Olympics: competitive prayer sports???
Religion as a team sport?
No, I just meant that at least respecting their right to hold a belief shouldn't be directly challenged if the hope is good initial communication.
Like respecting someone's right to have a belief without respecting the belief itself.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: sudly]
#26883787 - 08/16/20 06:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I respect each being I meet as a self contained cosmos.
this helps me respect myself as as I am.
you can use any object you like within your cosmos.
does this overlap your respect for a person's rights of belief?
I think it could.
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GandalfSon
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: sudly]
#26885920 - 08/18/20 12:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: religion as a team sport?
maybe we need to have religious Olympics: competitive prayer sports???
Religion as a team sport?
No, I just meant that at least respecting their right to hold a belief shouldn't be directly challenged if the hope is good initial communication.
Like respecting someone's right to have a belief without respecting the belief itself.
Precisely. I just can’t understand getting angry at someone who doesn’t act the way you think they should if they don’t abide by the same group norms. It’s like going to some foreign country and getting offended that no one acts the way they do back home. Maybe your way is better or not but no sense in demanding the locals agree. A little bit of courtesy and some willingness to mind our own business just might do the world some good.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon]
#26886034 - 08/18/20 04:18 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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- Religion as a team sport -
This ties in with my thoughts on the manufacture of empathy.
I really can't empathize with the female troubles of PMS because I'm not on that team.
I can emphasize with the rage of a rioter against authority because I've been there.
Perhaps the label of Narcissist from a female faction is mitigated by a show of empathy such as donating to a charity or the visitation of the president to Iowa post derecho.
So perhaps the passive aggressive labelling of narcissist by a female faction is simply an unworthy tactic by someone who hasn't been on the opposing team.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
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Loc: Utah
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon]
#26886072 - 08/18/20 05:12 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cheaters deserve to be shamed and looked down on. People have every right to criticize and judge them. The only people who benefit from cheaters not being judged are cheaters.
Cheaters are losers who can't hack it so they have to cheat. It shows you what kind of people they are. In the long run, the people who cheaters are really cheating is themselves.
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Buster_Brown
L'une


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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26886151 - 08/18/20 06:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said: perhaps the passive aggressive labelling of narcissist by a female faction is simply an unworthy tactic by someone who hasn't been on the opposing team.
I thought I'd mention that before Diana gets here with her bow.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,953
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon]
#26886228 - 08/18/20 07:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wouldn't so much mind my own business as I would feed them info like you feed a spoonful of applesauce to a baby, instead of shooting it at them with a t-shirt cannon.
If they do spit that sauce back at your face, yeeting may be the next option.
All's I'm saying is that a yeet is not a good first move imo.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (08/18/20 04:32 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,706
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: sudly]
#26886291 - 08/18/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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not yet yearning to yeet.
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laughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: GandalfSon] 1
#26886939 - 08/18/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GandalfSon said: So there has been a generally consistent theme in my thoughts during my last several trips and that is this general concept of “playing by the rules” and “cheating”.
At a very fundamental level all social groups from your circle of friends to the global human population have various ideas about what rules we generally agree to and expect others to follow. This is great as long as others are playing the same “game” as you but it’s really stupid to get angry when someone playing a different game doesn’t play by your rules right? Could you imagine playing monopoly and then getting angry at someone playing football for not yelling when they passed go? Absurd right?
But this is common for example when a religious person uses their scripture to try and convince someone that -their- religion is wrong, or when applying one’s own values to somebody else and then judging them for failing your expectations.
What I really like about this thought process is that it separates judgement of people and behavior. For example I can believe (by my rules) that you are wrong but recognizing that isn’t how you “play” I know that I have no authority to criticize or change you.
——————————————————————————-
On the other hand, this does not lead to moral relativism or rejection of absolute truth as it totally leaves the concept of debate or edification open. It just leads to this idea that I can only cite evidence we both see as true when making my argument. E.G. a Catholic and a Protestant can debate the Gospels but a Christian debating a Jew or Muslim would need to lean on the Torah to so that their argument is based on something concrete that both can accept as true. If you do not accept their “rules” that define an argument as valid than there is no way you can be responsible for failing to honor them.
Just a random musing.
What you seem to assume at a meta level, is that there is a big game called society, or nation(s), and within that are smaller games, and that people get to choose their games.
But on looking closer it would seem few choose all of their games, and most choose rather few of them.
So since choice is lacking people will disagree as to what 'cheating' is. In the middle ages certainly the feudal lords had the right to tax the peasants into poverty, yet the peasants had a right to eat - right? And is it any different today?
I think not. Beneath the surface of most societies is a lot of chaos.
"What I really like about this thought process is that it separates judgement of people and behavior. For example I can believe (by my rules) that you are wrong but recognizing that isn’t how you “play” I know that I have no authority to criticize or change you."
You seem to be searching for some sort of ideal way of relating to all elements in society. But it seems to me as long as there is government corruption at the top, and organized crime running protection rackets and human trafficking , and such like, at the bottom, and poor education and poor healthcare in the middle, that you are chasing a dream.
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djbluntmagic
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: laughingdog]
#26886944 - 08/18/20 03:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: So since choice is lacking people will disagree as to what 'cheating' is. In the middle ages certainly the feudal lords had the right to tax the peasants into poverty, yet the peasants had a right to eat - right? And is it any different today?.
This is a problem with rights. No one can say where they come from, and we can't agree on what they are. So it's really all about what you can take and defend.
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GandalfSon
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26891027 - 08/21/20 03:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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This reflects my idea in a lens I hadn’t seen yet.
Like my last trip me and my ole lady got into this big thing on race and both of us got slapped with a deeper understanding of the other afterwards:
I grew up with super deep American roots so when she mentioned the Kamala Harris birther thing I sort of looked at it from an analytical view and said that the author brought up good points about the historical meaning of natural-born citizen but court rulings had established another idea as the primary interpretation so it hardly mattered where or not she met the standards that the writers of the US constitution meant.
Now I thought I was being super progressive and stuff but she flipped about it..
So while in shroomspace we had this awesome talk about how she had to effectively defend her “American-ness” every day growing up. Not even always in a mean way but for example when her guidance councilor put English-As-A-Secobd Language on her schedule without asking. Little acts that even if nice sort of imply you aren’t part of “the group”. Ultimately, I viewed it all in a logical fashion because nobody is gonna question the American status of my redneck self 😂. But I totally missed the nuance of what that means for a 2nd gen Asian lady.
Now I can never -understand- because I’m not a Vietnamese-American girl in 90’s Mississippi. But I can empathize with the sense of rejection by your own community because I grew up as a white trash kid in a Black community and often felt that same need to prove my belonging when it was already decided that my lack of melanin made me an outsider.
Wildly different stories but sometimes you can step between both teams and see how similar they are.
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GandalfSon
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Re: Social norms and “Playing by the rules” [Re: nooneman]
#26891033 - 08/21/20 03:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Cheaters deserve to be shamed and looked down on. People have every right to criticize and judge them. The only people who benefit from cheaters not being judged are cheaters.
Cheaters are losers who can't hack it so they have to cheat. It shows you what kind of people they are. In the long run, the people who cheaters are really cheating is themselves.
Nooneman, I think I must have used a poor word choice. I was in the headspace of card games and game rules. Not relationships brother, I won’t judge an open relationship but if one person is sneaking something on the side then that is wrong for sure.
Please allow me to explain: my thinking is more like how can I judge -you- by the rules of -my- game. It’s all social contracts y’know? Like if you and other people agree to certain unspoken rules about behavior then you can fault someone that breaks them for sort of violating your community. And you can cite your rules to show them their error because you both believe it right?
But if somebody doesn’t believe what you believe then your rules have no power. Your beliefs only have jurisdiction with people who accept them as truth. Cheaters was just a term for people who didn’t play by the same rules.
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