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InvisibleBilly Ray
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Registered: 11/19/19
Posts: 754
Mostly peaceful protests * 4
    #26884590 - 08/17/20 10:10 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Have you seen what's been happening in Portland's mostly peaceful protests as of late?  For about 80 straight days, these peaceful protesters have been doing their best to advocate justice for the voiceless.  Last night they took a man out of his car and beat him senseless.  The video is on Andy Ngo's twitter.  The swelling on his head and the way he is lying in the street while peaceful protesters rummage through his truck is graphic. 

There's all kinds of videos of peaceful protesters.  Some are speeches wishing officers were strangled as babies, some are of peaceful protesters in the streets blocking traffic while an officer is injured, and there's some of people walking at the wrong time in a neighborhood getting harassed and prodded with a baseball bat as they try to get on their way with no violence. 

People have a right to protest, but these videos are showing something else.  There's a handful of police departments that are in the process of being defunded, including Portland.  Why are these protests still happening?  What do these people want?


Here's Andy Ngo's twitter


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray] * 3
    #26884630 - 08/17/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Awesome, I was hoping you'd enter the Ngo Go Zone because now I have an excuse to post this:

THE ANDY NGO THREAD: Your Comprehensive Guide to Andy Ngo’s Bad Faith Scams and the Intractable Problem They Present




Let’s start with Portland last year, and this viral tweet about a poor middle-aged man who was maced and beaten as a mob surrounded them. Andy Ngo's video begins with the man already on the ground:


Here is what happened immediately before that: https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/1163895313339473921?s=20

And here's some more info on the guy in the vest:


And then the guy jumped right back into the mosh pit:


Here’s some more misinformation spread by Andy Ngo – that antifascists attacked a young girl:


But that’s not a young girl. That’s noted alt-right goon “Based Spartan” and his adult daughter. They didn’t get separated. They spent the whole day agitating people, spoiling for a fight.

And sure, Andy Ngo corrected this one when he got called out, but there’s a small problem inherent to unreliable people like Andy:


Nearly 7,500 retweets of Andy Ngo's misleading tweet about "a man & a young girl" scuffling with antifascists. Less than 150 retweets of his "correction", which he also dishonestly softens with the word "young". I guess you were one of the thousands who missed the memo.

Andy Ngo next claimed an antifascist mob attacked when police weren’t around:


But as reported by many people, this fight was caused when a Patriot Prayer weirdo rode his bike through protestors.

The guy on the bike, Greg Isaacson, is a well-known goon. He was arrested on June 3rd with some fellow Patriot Prayer goons during another violent intimidation rally (bottom right):


Andy Ngo's claim about the police not being there to break up the fight is also wrong.

And this next bit is thick with irony: Not only did Andy Ngo misrepresent the right-wing bike incident, but he later spread misinformation claiming a traffic accident near the protest was caused by antifascists:


But a local TV reporter on the scene said:


Then the Portland Police -- who aren’t exactly antifascist friendly -- said the incident wasn’t related to the demonstration.

Hours later, Andy Ngo mentioned the Portland Police statement, but doesn’t mention the incident wasn’t related to the demonstration. In fact, Andy Ngo says “a source” (read: probably a fascist terrorist on meth) told him it was antifascists:


It’s non-stop bullshit stories that keep changing in order to fit what the audience wants. First it’s antifascists standing in the street. Then he misrepresents a police report and changes his story to an antifascist woman driving the scooter. This is InfoWars-level garbage.

One of the things you’ll notice about Andy Ngo’s propaganda pieces is that they typically don’t include the beginning of whatever happened. They start in the middle, or more frequently, at the very end, where some fascist goon is looking pitiful.

A good example is the hammer attacker who Andy Ngo misrepresented in the bus incident:


Another example of this phenomenon in mainstream media is John Blum. There’s a good chance you saw this photo in national publications during the protest in which Andy Ngo was punched and milkshaked:


It’s far less likely you saw any of the footage taken of Mr. Blum – a legit fascist militia goon and Three Percenter – attacking people with a police baton:


And of course none of us will ever forget “concrete milkshakes.” A moronic fantasy concocted by some Proud Boy meatheads and believed by some dumb Portland cop who had never seen a coconut-based non-dairy milkshake.

Fewer people know about a shocking incident back in May, when Andy Ngo accompanied his fascist thug pals on a field trip to attack the Cider Riot pub, a local leftist hangout. The gang attacked patrons, spraying mace into the patio of the bar:


The owner of the bar has filed a lawsuit against Patriot Prayer members, noting that his patrons were struck with bricks being hurled into the patio:


The patrons poured outside the bar to confront the attackers, and Patriot Prayer weirdo Ian Kramer was arrested after he broke a woman’s neck with a baton. While she was in the hospital, Andy Ngo published her name:


There is also apparently video of Andy Ngo filming and pointing out this same woman prior to the attack. I haven’t seen the footage but multiple people have told me it was posted by this account, and there are other tweets discussing the video.

About a month later, when a couple of irate protestors punched Andy Ngo for his role in the Cider Riot incident and long history of antagonizing Portland leftists and assisting fascist thugs, Andy Ngo became a cause celebre, not just among the right, but among mainstream journalists. These oblivious journalists took a look at Andy Ngo's weepy little eyes and never thought to question who he really was or whether he was representing himself in good faith.

It’s also important to note Andy Ngo's unreliability extends beyond antifascism. He’s just a terrible reporter in general, poisoned by his own biases. For example, Andy Ngo often cites his byline at the Wall Street Journal. It was a piece about an East End neighborhood in London which he portrayed as utterly alien due to Muslim domination, mentioning signs reading “Alcohol Restricted Zone.” But the truth is that has nothing to do Muslims. In the UK, an “alcohol restricted zone” is a place in the UK where you can’t drink on the street, and it’s typically found where there are a lot of bars, strip clubs, etc. So not only does the “alcohol zone” have nothing to do with Muslims, but the area Andy Ngo implies is a Sharia bubble is actually a popular nightlife district. In fact, there is a bar right where Andy Ngo was standing.

It’s also important to remember that Andy Ngo was terminated from the PSU Vanguard for a dangerous breach of journalistic ethics. He outrageously misquoted a Muslim student to make him appear to support jihadi violence. It was an ugly, shocking episode.

Some may also remember when Andy Ngo and his fellow Quillette editors published a ridiculously “study” by a self-professed extremism researcher named Eoin Lenihan, who claimed to use Twitter analysis to determine which journalists were secret Antifa collaborators. But Lenihan had already been outed long before as a hardcore far-right troll and moderator of a racist “Groyper” group chat (google it) named ProgDad. And the “methodology” he used to connect journalists to antifa was ludicrously dumb. But this troll “study” by Lenihan resulted in Nazi terrorist group Atomwaffen publishing a “kill list” of those specific journalists.

Earlier this month, Andy Ngo's dumb little rag proved again it has no fact-checking and welcomes anything that plays to its biases, when a Chapo fan got them to a publish a fake “Archie the Construction Worker” piece attacking the DSA with alleged inside info.

Anyone who is actually paying attention will see that Andy Ngo has become disturbingly cozy with the most insane and hardcore fascist terrorists in America, and that he purposely engineers his work as deceptive PR for these groups. No matter how many times he is debunked, he’ll continue to tell a made up story designed to hide something truly ugly. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yet it is a tale that mainstream media swallows again and again and again. So you end up hearing about a hardcore fascist militia committing a hammer attack from me instead of the nightly news.


BONUS

New footage was later released from the Cider Riot lawsuit showing Andy Ngo laughing as Patriot Prayer members plan an attack on patrons of the bar:


https://t.co/G1iM9XUDi2?amp=1

The twenty-minute video was posted by Portland journalist Alex Zielinski.

After several discussions about weaponry, wind direction for mace, and being outnumbered, the group calls fellow members to recruit backup. They decide to go ahead with their plan to ambush the patrons at Cider Riot and start a brawl. "Who's texting Joey?" someone asks when the group seems to be without a game plan. A little later, someone in the PP group tells a person on speakerphone: "There's going to be a huge fight" at Cider Riot.

One of the allegations by the owner of Cider Riot is that his patrons were injured by bricks thrown into the patio. Well, check out these images from the video showing a woman with a brick in her hand. Andy Ngo is the guy in blue.


And of course, Andy Ngo also posted misleading footage after the attack. He shows a woman aggressively approaching Patriot Prayer members in hysterics, and then a Patriot Prayer member hits her with some kind of club. But a full video shows the woman was attacked immediately prior to the start of Andy Ngo's clip. If you listen to Andy Ngo's clip, you can even hear one Patriot Prayer member frantically apologizing for the attack on her. This is the same woman who Andy had filmed and identified to his followers. She was knocked unconscious and suffered a broken neck. Andy also published her name while she was in the hospital.

It becomes clear that Andy’s work is plagued by these dishonest edits. For example, in this clip, he edited out some goons stomping a man’s head, and did it with a sloppy looking jump-cut in his own clip. There are so many examples of this, where Andy leaves out provocations by Patriot Prayer members and then shows the struggle afterwards.



Andy likes to present himself as if he’s “embedded,” like some glamorous combat photojournalist in the war against communism. But something extremely disturbing is going on when a “journalist” gleefully accompanies and films a gang ambush on a private business and then presents video of that event in a slanted manner.

Pretty much the only reason you’re hearing about it at all is because of a lawsuit. In a world that made sense, this would be the end of Andy Ngo’s credibility and career. This is worse than InfoWars, worse than any of the dumb stunts Jacob Wohl pulled. But I have this funny feeling Andy Ngo is not going away.

But who knows? Maybe the screws are tightening. This week Joey Gibson and five others were arrested on felony riot charges in connection with the attack.

If you’re interested in the Cider Riot lawsuit, here is a copy of the complaint: https://www.scribd.com/document/422874453/Cider-Riot-Complaint

And here is the Plaintiff’s motion for discovery filed this week, which disclosed the videos of Patriot Prayer planning the attack: https://www.scribd.com/document/422874529/Motion-for-Limited-Discovery


--------------------


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InvisibleBilly Ray
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Registered: 11/19/19
Posts: 754
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26884659 - 08/17/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, sometimes he's wrong.  The footage on his page is still a glimpse into these protests.  I'm not going to discredit a video of a man almost being beaten to death because Andy gets it wrong sometimes.  It seems before the beating, the man was defending a trans woman because she was being robbed and assaulted.  I thought BLM was a movement supporting trans people?

Is the video of the woman speaking about armoring up, getting justice by any means necessary and strangling babies skewed? 

You haven't answered why these protests are still happening.  Police departments are being defunded.  Why are these protests still happening?


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Invisiblevinsue
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray] * 1
    #26885101 - 08/17/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Because racist fucks think white is right. :doublefu:
:kkk: . . . :peace:


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26885186 - 08/17/20 03:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Billy Ray said:
Have you seen what's been happening in Portland's mostly peaceful protests as of late?  For about 80 straight days, these peaceful protesters have been doing their best to advocate justice for the voiceless.  Last night they took a man out of his car and beat him senseless.  The video is on Andy Ngo's twitter.  The swelling on his head and the way he is lying in the street while peaceful protesters rummage through his truck is graphic. 

There's all kinds of videos of peaceful protesters.  Some are speeches wishing officers were strangled as babies, some are of peaceful protesters in the streets blocking traffic while an officer is injured, and there's some of people walking at the wrong time in a neighborhood getting harassed and prodded with a baseball bat as they try to get on their way with no violence. 

People have a right to protest, but these videos are showing something else.  There's a handful of police departments that are in the process of being defunded, including Portland.  Why are these protests still happening?  What do these people want?


Here's Andy Ngo's twitter




In the last few months I have realised that if I want to see fights I no longer need to watch UFC reruns to get my blood lust fix.

I just look up protest clips to realise that gangs are waging a non stop street war and if you want to get involved its as easy as showing up at a blue protest claiming Trump is such a great conservative or showing up at a MAGA hat rally talking about how Biden will get rid of fascism and you are in for one hell of an ass whooping. Every major University campus and major city town square these days is liable to fall towards these political protests.

None of these people care for Democracy or fair speech of give a fuck about covid victims. Or HIV victims. Or Ebola victims. Or homeless VA patients. Or veterans. Or the common working person. They are living off apparently permanent unemployment and have alcohol and anger and permanent political views in their system and are out looking for trouble.

If it wasn't so damn entertaining I would not be able to watch it. But its exciting turning on youtube and watching 50 people swing at each other and 50 vs 50 fights but as you said it ends up being a mostly 50 vs 1 scenario where 50 skinheads beat up a liberal or 50 Antifa whoop ass on a MAGA hat strolling by to talk about how great Trump is to build the wall.

I am probably catching covid and going to hell karma wise for finding entertainment in such fucked up places but watching these wackos drop bombs on each other is just non stop :popcorn:



But yeah from someone who actually went to highschool in Portland and have not been back there in 18 years and have heard so many great things about how much it has changed and how much they have cleaned up the heroin addicts I must say that town needs to be bombed with napalm and burned down and never rebuilt. I keep throwing off plans to visit Eugene as well and despite being almost talked into it if Portland burns down and it should they are all going to go fuck up Eugene. :shrug: if you like the West Coast stick to Washington or California but just stay away from Oregon all together :lol:

Shit you are better off in New York full covid then going near Oregon these days :shrug:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: vinsue]
    #26885197 - 08/17/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

vinsue said:
Because racist fucks think white is right. :doublefu:
:kkk: . . . :peace:




Dude you are getting hardcore black people showing up at Trump rallies cussing out BLM protestors. The BLM protestors are all mostly white people. This shit is fucked ass backwards. I guess brainwashing is a race opposite behavior. Trump gets in the head of the black man and Obama touches the hearts of white people everywhere :shrug:

But yeah historically behind all these street meetings are The White Supremacists and Black Panther Party. Its just so fucked his disconnected every single person is these days from the actual policies they represent. A black man gets on his phone and goes out and protests for Trump and a Martha Stuart looking bitch goes out to spark off a riot in the name of BLM.

:facepalm: my head is spinning from the state of politics in the country these days


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26885543 - 08/17/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

what trump rallies?


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26885547 - 08/17/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:


Dude you are getting hardcore black people showing up at Trump rallies cussing out BLM protestors.




Being hardcore makes you blacker, I get it.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods] * 1
    #26885749 - 08/17/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

imachavel said:


Dude you are getting hardcore black people showing up at Trump rallies cussing out BLM protestors.




Being hardcore makes you blacker, I get it.




I have nothing to do with it

Quote:

koods said:
what trump rallies?




Those don't exist. Biden going downhill doesn't exist either. Obviously if its not real to you its not real at all



Except unfortunately youtube has like a billion views total just this week for all the effort Trump is going through to totally throw Biden down the drain as hard as he can by trashing him all over the internet. Reality is a total view of something my man. Not just what you acknowledge exists or not.

This is the problem in the pub and in general in the world. If enough liberals all agree the sky isn't blue then it never was because facts. I hope Biden gets his shit together or those non existent mass gathering of Trump supporters will vote his ass the fuck out. There goes Biden-care or whatever :shrug: he better get his story straight. Trump is the next Grand Wizard but he sure is consistent and voters love consistency. Him winning is far from my best hope but watch out!

Keep your goals in your heart and hope Trump isn't the best option because a lot of people are saying he is.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26885805 - 08/17/20 09:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Awesome, I was hoping you'd enter the Ngo Go Zone because now I have an excuse to post this:

THE ANDY NGO THREAD: Your Comprehensive Guide to Andy Ngo’s Bad Faith Scams and the Intractable Problem They Present




Let’s start with Portland last year, and this viral tweet about a poor middle-aged man who was maced and beaten as a mob surrounded them. Andy Ngo's video begins with the man already on the ground:


Here is what happened immediately before that: https://twitter.com/RespectableLaw/status/1163895313339473921?s=20

And here's some more info on the guy in the vest:


And then the guy jumped right back into the mosh pit:


Here’s some more misinformation spread by Andy Ngo – that antifascists attacked a young girl:


But that’s not a young girl. That’s noted alt-right goon “Based Spartan” and his adult daughter. They didn’t get separated. They spent the whole day agitating people, spoiling for a fight.

And sure, Andy Ngo corrected this one when he got called out, but there’s a small problem inherent to unreliable people like Andy:


Nearly 7,500 retweets of Andy Ngo's misleading tweet about "a man & a young girl" scuffling with antifascists. Less than 150 retweets of his "correction", which he also dishonestly softens with the word "young". I guess you were one of the thousands who missed the memo.

Andy Ngo next claimed an antifascist mob attacked when police weren’t around:


But as reported by many people, this fight was caused when a Patriot Prayer weirdo rode his bike through protestors.

The guy on the bike, Greg Isaacson, is a well-known goon. He was arrested on June 3rd with some fellow Patriot Prayer goons during another violent intimidation rally (bottom right):


Andy Ngo's claim about the police not being there to break up the fight is also wrong.

And this next bit is thick with irony: Not only did Andy Ngo misrepresent the right-wing bike incident, but he later spread misinformation claiming a traffic accident near the protest was caused by antifascists:


But a local TV reporter on the scene said:


Then the Portland Police -- who aren’t exactly antifascist friendly -- said the incident wasn’t related to the demonstration.

Hours later, Andy Ngo mentioned the Portland Police statement, but doesn’t mention the incident wasn’t related to the demonstration. In fact, Andy Ngo says “a source” (read: probably a fascist terrorist on meth) told him it was antifascists:


It’s non-stop bullshit stories that keep changing in order to fit what the audience wants. First it’s antifascists standing in the street. Then he misrepresents a police report and changes his story to an antifascist woman driving the scooter. This is InfoWars-level garbage.

One of the things you’ll notice about Andy Ngo’s propaganda pieces is that they typically don’t include the beginning of whatever happened. They start in the middle, or more frequently, at the very end, where some fascist goon is looking pitiful.

A good example is the hammer attacker who Andy Ngo misrepresented in the bus incident:


Another example of this phenomenon in mainstream media is John Blum. There’s a good chance you saw this photo in national publications during the protest in which Andy Ngo was punched and milkshaked:


It’s far less likely you saw any of the footage taken of Mr. Blum – a legit fascist militia goon and Three Percenter – attacking people with a police baton:


And of course none of us will ever forget “concrete milkshakes.” A moronic fantasy concocted by some Proud Boy meatheads and believed by some dumb Portland cop who had never seen a coconut-based non-dairy milkshake.

Fewer people know about a shocking incident back in May, when Andy Ngo accompanied his fascist thug pals on a field trip to attack the Cider Riot pub, a local leftist hangout. The gang attacked patrons, spraying mace into the patio of the bar:


The owner of the bar has filed a lawsuit against Patriot Prayer members, noting that his patrons were struck with bricks being hurled into the patio:


The patrons poured outside the bar to confront the attackers, and Patriot Prayer weirdo Ian Kramer was arrested after he broke a woman’s neck with a baton. While she was in the hospital, Andy Ngo published her name:


There is also apparently video of Andy Ngo filming and pointing out this same woman prior to the attack. I haven’t seen the footage but multiple people have told me it was posted by this account, and there are other tweets discussing the video.

About a month later, when a couple of irate protestors punched Andy Ngo for his role in the Cider Riot incident and long history of antagonizing Portland leftists and assisting fascist thugs, Andy Ngo became a cause celebre, not just among the right, but among mainstream journalists. These oblivious journalists took a look at Andy Ngo's weepy little eyes and never thought to question who he really was or whether he was representing himself in good faith.

It’s also important to note Andy Ngo's unreliability extends beyond antifascism. He’s just a terrible reporter in general, poisoned by his own biases. For example, Andy Ngo often cites his byline at the Wall Street Journal. It was a piece about an East End neighborhood in London which he portrayed as utterly alien due to Muslim domination, mentioning signs reading “Alcohol Restricted Zone.” But the truth is that has nothing to do Muslims. In the UK, an “alcohol restricted zone” is a place in the UK where you can’t drink on the street, and it’s typically found where there are a lot of bars, strip clubs, etc. So not only does the “alcohol zone” have nothing to do with Muslims, but the area Andy Ngo implies is a Sharia bubble is actually a popular nightlife district. In fact, there is a bar right where Andy Ngo was standing.

It’s also important to remember that Andy Ngo was terminated from the PSU Vanguard for a dangerous breach of journalistic ethics. He outrageously misquoted a Muslim student to make him appear to support jihadi violence. It was an ugly, shocking episode.

Some may also remember when Andy Ngo and his fellow Quillette editors published a ridiculously “study” by a self-professed extremism researcher named Eoin Lenihan, who claimed to use Twitter analysis to determine which journalists were secret Antifa collaborators. But Lenihan had already been outed long before as a hardcore far-right troll and moderator of a racist “Groyper” group chat (google it) named ProgDad. And the “methodology” he used to connect journalists to antifa was ludicrously dumb. But this troll “study” by Lenihan resulted in Nazi terrorist group Atomwaffen publishing a “kill list” of those specific journalists.

Earlier this month, Andy Ngo's dumb little rag proved again it has no fact-checking and welcomes anything that plays to its biases, when a Chapo fan got them to a publish a fake “Archie the Construction Worker” piece attacking the DSA with alleged inside info.

Anyone who is actually paying attention will see that Andy Ngo has become disturbingly cozy with the most insane and hardcore fascist terrorists in America, and that he purposely engineers his work as deceptive PR for these groups. No matter how many times he is debunked, he’ll continue to tell a made up story designed to hide something truly ugly. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Yet it is a tale that mainstream media swallows again and again and again. So you end up hearing about a hardcore fascist militia committing a hammer attack from me instead of the nightly news.


BONUS

New footage was later released from the Cider Riot lawsuit showing Andy Ngo laughing as Patriot Prayer members plan an attack on patrons of the bar:


https://t.co/G1iM9XUDi2?amp=1

The twenty-minute video was posted by Portland journalist Alex Zielinski.

After several discussions about weaponry, wind direction for mace, and being outnumbered, the group calls fellow members to recruit backup. They decide to go ahead with their plan to ambush the patrons at Cider Riot and start a brawl. "Who's texting Joey?" someone asks when the group seems to be without a game plan. A little later, someone in the PP group tells a person on speakerphone: "There's going to be a huge fight" at Cider Riot.

One of the allegations by the owner of Cider Riot is that his patrons were injured by bricks thrown into the patio. Well, check out these images from the video showing a woman with a brick in her hand. Andy Ngo is the guy in blue.


And of course, Andy Ngo also posted misleading footage after the attack. He shows a woman aggressively approaching Patriot Prayer members in hysterics, and then a Patriot Prayer member hits her with some kind of club. But a full video shows the woman was attacked immediately prior to the start of Andy Ngo's clip. If you listen to Andy Ngo's clip, you can even hear one Patriot Prayer member frantically apologizing for the attack on her. This is the same woman who Andy had filmed and identified to his followers. She was knocked unconscious and suffered a broken neck. Andy also published her name while she was in the hospital.

It becomes clear that Andy’s work is plagued by these dishonest edits. For example, in this clip, he edited out some goons stomping a man’s head, and did it with a sloppy looking jump-cut in his own clip. There are so many examples of this, where Andy leaves out provocations by Patriot Prayer members and then shows the struggle afterwards.



Andy likes to present himself as if he’s “embedded,” like some glamorous combat photojournalist in the war against communism. But something extremely disturbing is going on when a “journalist” gleefully accompanies and films a gang ambush on a private business and then presents video of that event in a slanted manner.

Pretty much the only reason you’re hearing about it at all is because of a lawsuit. In a world that made sense, this would be the end of Andy Ngo’s credibility and career. This is worse than InfoWars, worse than any of the dumb stunts Jacob Wohl pulled. But I have this funny feeling Andy Ngo is not going away.

But who knows? Maybe the screws are tightening. This week Joey Gibson and five others were arrested on felony riot charges in connection with the attack.

If you’re interested in the Cider Riot lawsuit, here is a copy of the complaint: https://www.scribd.com/document/422874453/Cider-Riot-Complaint

And here is the Plaintiff’s motion for discovery filed this week, which disclosed the videos of Patriot Prayer planning the attack: https://www.scribd.com/document/422874529/Motion-for-Limited-Discovery




I've noted that with you, you always accuse your opposition of the worst intentions possible and give your own side the benefit of the doubt. You've done it with Tim Pool, Project Veritas, and now Andy Ngo. (Your criticism of PV I can halfway get behind, but this is kinda ridiculous.)

Protesters destroy a car? Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they were acting in good faith. A man reports on something and then corrects himself later? He's an evil scumbag that has a right-wing agenda. :lol: (And hey, we all do it to an extent, but I think what is obvious to me and what seems to be obvious to you is the opposite.)

Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes, and he is absolutely correct in stating that the media only shows one side of the story... we need counter voices.

As for the O.P., all I gotta say is that Oregon may actually turn red this year. :lol:


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/17/20 09:51 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26885818 - 08/17/20 09:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think enough things have turned red this year. Metaphorically and physically


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26886318 - 08/18/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I've noted that with you, you always accuse your opposition of the worst intentions possible and give your own side the benefit of the doubt. You've done it with Tim Pool, Project Veritas, and now Andy Ngo. (Your criticism of PV I can halfway get behind, but this is kinda ridiculous.)

Protesters destroy a car? Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they were acting in good faith. A man reports on something and then corrects himself later? He's an evil scumbag that has a right-wing agenda. :lol: (And hey, we all do it to an extent, but I think what is obvious to me and what seems to be obvious to you is the opposite.)

Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes, and he is absolutely correct in stating that the media only shows one side of the story... we need counter voices.

As for the O.P., all I gotta say is that Oregon may actually turn red this year. :lol:




I've backed up every accusation I've made. Stop using fascist disinformation as sources, if you don't like the criticism. Andy Ngo doesn't "simply make mistakes", he intentionally misrepresents things to push a specific narrative. It's no coincidence that every time he "makes a mistake", the disinformation he publishes meshes perfectly with the far-right narrative.

I've noted with you, you always respond to the arguments with evidence that I provide with some baseless appeal to emotion - like this: "Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes".

Compare the amount of evidence I supplied along with my claim regarding Andy Ngo, to the absolute lack of any evidence you provided in support of your claim, and then ask yourself who is truly being ruled by their personal bias.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26886336 - 08/18/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I've noted that with you, you always accuse your opposition of the worst intentions possible and give your own side the benefit of the doubt. You've done it with Tim Pool, Project Veritas, and now Andy Ngo. (Your criticism of PV I can halfway get behind, but this is kinda ridiculous.)

Protesters destroy a car? Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they were acting in good faith. A man reports on something and then corrects himself later? He's an evil scumbag that has a right-wing agenda. :lol: (And hey, we all do it to an extent, but I think what is obvious to me and what seems to be obvious to you is the opposite.)

Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes, and he is absolutely correct in stating that the media only shows one side of the story... we need counter voices.

As for the O.P., all I gotta say is that Oregon may actually turn red this year. :lol:




I've backed up every accusation I've made. Stop using fascist disinformation as sources, if you don't like the criticism. Andy Ngo doesn't "simply make mistakes", he intentionally misrepresents things to push a specific narrative. It's no coincidence that every time he "makes a mistake", the disinformation he publishes meshes perfectly with the far-right narrative.

I've noted with you, you always respond to the arguments with evidence that I provide with some baseless appeal to emotion - like this: "Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes".

Compare the amount of evidence I supplied along with my claim regarding Andy Ngo, to the absolute lack of any evidence you provided in support of your claim, and then ask yourself who is truly being ruled by their personal bias.




Emphasis on fascist information sources, and baseless appeal.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26886366 - 08/18/20 09:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ngo's entire reputation is built on getting hit in the face with a milkshake.

Personally, I wouldn't hire anybody based on that credential, but that's good enough for many.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26886370 - 08/18/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I've noted that with you, you always accuse your opposition of the worst intentions possible and give your own side the benefit of the doubt. You've done it with Tim Pool, Project Veritas, and now Andy Ngo. (Your criticism of PV I can halfway get behind, but this is kinda ridiculous.)

Protesters destroy a car? Let's give them the benefit of the doubt that they were acting in good faith. A man reports on something and then corrects himself later? He's an evil scumbag that has a right-wing agenda. :lol: (And hey, we all do it to an extent, but I think what is obvious to me and what seems to be obvious to you is the opposite.)

Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes, and he is absolutely correct in stating that the media only shows one side of the story... we need counter voices.

As for the O.P., all I gotta say is that Oregon may actually turn red this year. :lol:




I've backed up every accusation I've made. Stop using fascist disinformation as sources, if you don't like the criticism. Andy Ngo doesn't "simply make mistakes", he intentionally misrepresents things to push a specific narrative. It's no coincidence that every time he "makes a mistake", the disinformation he publishes meshes perfectly with the far-right narrative.

I've noted with you, you always respond to the arguments with evidence that I provide with some baseless appeal to emotion - like this: "Andy Ngo is an honest and sincere man who simply makes mistakes sometimes".

Compare the amount of evidence I supplied along with my claim regarding Andy Ngo, to the absolute lack of any evidence you provided in support of your claim, and then ask yourself who is truly being ruled by their personal bias.





This is untrue. I dug WAY down the PV rabbit hole when you posted what you did about it.

I find most of what you said here about Gno to be weak in comparison to that.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26886401 - 08/18/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It’s also important to remember that Andy Ngo was terminated from the PSU Vanguard for a dangerous breach of journalistic ethics. He outrageously misquoted a Muslim student to make him appear to support jihadi violence. It was an ugly, shocking episode.




"Outrageously misquoted?"

From the article in the link you provided on this one, it states: "There was no attempt to clarify directly with the speaker the intent of his words in the video, which were explanatory and in response to a question."

And yet... (Edit: Muslims actually do want infidels to either submit or be killed eventually.)



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Edited by Vahn421 (08/18/20 10:09 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26886490 - 08/18/20 10:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
This is untrue. I dug WAY down the PV rabbit hole when you posted what you did about it.

I find most of what you said here about Gno to be weak in comparison to that.



It's painfully true. If you find my criticism of Andy Ngo to be weak, provide your own counter-argument. So far I've provided copious amounts of evidence and reasoning to support my claim - you've provided nothing.

Scratch that - one thing:

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

It’s also important to remember that Andy Ngo was terminated from the PSU Vanguard for a dangerous breach of journalistic ethics. He outrageously misquoted a Muslim student to make him appear to support jihadi violence. It was an ugly, shocking episode.




"Outrageously misquoted?"

From the article in the link you provided on this one, it states: "There was no attempt to clarify directly with the speaker the intent of his words in the video, which were explanatory and in response to a question."

And yet... (Edit: Muslims actually do want infidels to either submit or be killed eventually.)





He recorded the video, but coincidentally cut it to begin mid sentence. Why didn't Andy Ngo provide the full video, including where the student further clarified their views, then? Why should we just believe him because he said it? Note the date of the tweet is April 17th - the day after the conference. More details later emerged that were significant enough for his position to be terminated for breach of ethics. It clearly stated as much in the paragraphs immediately preceding the one you chose to quote:

Quote:

The problem was that he initially shared the quote as a stand alone clip that summarized the speaker’s point to say, “Apostates will be killed or banished in an Islamic State.” This seemed straightforward and simple enough, and, from an ethical standpoint, was a dangerous oversimplification that violated very clear ethics outlined by the Society of Professional Journalists.

The speaker did not say the words used to caption the video when it was shared. Only later, after being prompted, did Ngo provide further clips showing follow-up dialogue that describe the history of Muslims and non-Muslims living peacefully throughout history with an emphasis on innocent lives.





In a video of the event, the panelist says: "I can confidently tell you, when the Quran says an innocent life, it means an innocent life, regardless of the faith, the race, like, whatever you can think about as a characteristic. […] This that you're referring to, killing non-Muslims, that is only considered a crime when the country's law, the country is based on Quranic law—that means there is no other law than the Quran. In that case, you're given the liberty to leave the country, I'm not going to sugarcoat it."

Ngo tweeted: "At @Portland_State interfaith panel today, the Muslim student speaker said that apostates will be killed or banished in an Islamic state."



Swing and a miss Vahn421


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26886682 - 08/18/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"At @Portland_State interfaith panel today, the Muslim student speaker said that apostates will be killed or banished in an Islamic state."




But this is actually true. In fact, it's actually generous. Ngo is slightly incorrect with his wording as NON-believers would have the option to be banished, but *apostates* would likely simply be killed. I'm genuinely confused how this was taken out of context... what exactly needed clarifying? I'm reading this over and over again. What was said that is untrue, exactly?

I just picked one random example from your many to see what I'd find. I may get to the rest if I find this interesting enough.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26886690 - 08/18/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok... Shiva's post makes a WHOLE lot more sense now. It's a copy-paste from this site. (or one similar.) I thought he had written all that up himself for a moment.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/18/20 12:45 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26886780 - 08/18/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Me too.  Stole someone's work and gave no credit.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26886875 - 08/18/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It's a copy and paste because I'm not going to write an original post everytime someone makes a post rehashing the same tired old fascist disinformation. Your arguments are weak, unoriginal, and tiring - everything you bring here has already been brought up and debunked multiple times on this forum.

Like here: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26090139#26090139

And here: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26152411#26152411



Spend less time googling my posts, and more time googling for evidence of your own claims because you've still provided nothing. When only one side is using evidence to form reasonable conclusions, it's clear where the bias lies.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 4
    #26886896 - 08/18/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It’s funny that you say people here are unoriginal as you copy and paste someone else’s work.  Why don’t you want people looking up your arguments?  That means they are familiarizing themselves with what you just looked up.

We all do it.  I don’t think anybody here has an original thought.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26886912 - 08/18/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't care if people scrutinize every single word I post - but if the best criticism you can bring forth is 'this is copypasta' then you should have spent more effort in researching your own argument.

If either of you had put in the effort of googling the claims of Andy Ngo or Project Veritas before echoing those claims here, effort that has clearly been put into googling my own posts, you would have found out that these are unethical journalists on your own and I wouldn't be having to debunk the same tired old fascist disinformation with the same tired old copypasta in response.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26886974 - 08/18/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I acknowledged Andy isn’t always accurate, but to say his work should be discredited or what is seen on his page isn’t happening is foolish.  These people in Portland are not peaceful and they do not want peace.  They are fascists.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26886978 - 08/18/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If you actually believe that they are fascists then you fundamentally don’t understand fascism.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26886985 - 08/18/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

"At @Portland_State interfaith panel today, the Muslim student speaker said that apostates will be killed or banished in an Islamic state."




But this is actually true. In fact, it's actually generous. Ngo is slightly incorrect with his wording as NON-believers would have the option to be banished, but *apostates* would likely simply be killed. I'm genuinely confused how this was taken out of context... what exactly needed clarifying? I'm reading this over and over again. What was said that is untrue, exactly?




Really you can’t figure out what is wrong with what Ngo said and why it misrepresented the student’s words?

ngo clearly made it sound not only that the student endorsed killing apostates, but that he was making a threat.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera] * 1
    #26887051 - 08/18/20 04:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
If you actually believe that they are fascists then you fundamentally don’t understand fascism.




From Wiki, "Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation."
What's happening in Portland is political violence and these people believe what they're doing is leading to national rejuvenation.

More from Wiki's fascism page, "Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics."  It's not enough to not be racist, you have to be an anti-racist to appease Leftists nowadays.

"This emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts)."  Hmm violent private militias....Sounds kinda like BLM and Antifa if you ask me. 


This article by Rachel Alexander makes a compelling argument as to why the Left is fascist.  I don't expect you to read it but if you do, I'd like to see you debunk it.  https://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2020/08/10/the-new-far-left-fascism-n2573993


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887110 - 08/18/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

"At @Portland_State interfaith panel today, the Muslim student speaker said that apostates will be killed or banished in an Islamic state."




But this is actually true. In fact, it's actually generous. Ngo is slightly incorrect with his wording as NON-believers would have the option to be banished, but *apostates* would likely simply be killed. I'm genuinely confused how this was taken out of context... what exactly needed clarifying? I'm reading this over and over again. What was said that is untrue, exactly?




Really you can’t figure out what is wrong with what Ngo said and why it misrepresented the student’s words?

ngo clearly made it sound not only that the student endorsed killing apostates, but that he was making a threat.




He DOES endorse it. Are you saying he doesn't? :lol:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26887120 - 08/18/20 05:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't care if people scrutinize every single word I post - but if the best criticism you can bring forth is 'this is copypasta' then you should have spent more effort in researching your own argument.

If either of you had put in the effort of googling the claims of Andy Ngo or Project Veritas before echoing those claims here, effort that has clearly been put into googling my own posts, you would have found out that these are unethical journalists on your own and I wouldn't be having to debunk the same tired old fascist disinformation with the same tired old copypasta in response.




Based on your opinion of Tim Pool, our standards of what makes one "ethical" are clearly different.

Project Veritas videos should be taken on a case by case basis. Dismissing them all as categorically false is intellectually dishonest and WAY too convenient of an excuse to not look at something (keeping your head in the sand).

Same with Andy Gno videos. Case by case.

Now, I'm still arguing the one point about Gno and the Muslim. I do not see what is being misrepresented here. Gno's words are true. Just because they are said without being sugar-coated doesn't make them less true.


Edited by Vahn421 (08/18/20 05:13 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887129 - 08/18/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Meh, nm.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/18/20 05:17 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887130 - 08/18/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

These "protests" are not peaceful and have not been peaceful for a long time. Not only that, but despite the fact that they want to call themselves peaceful, they never denounce or try to stop the massive amounts of violence that occurs on the regular. Now some guy was physically pulled out of his truck and beaten unconscious and what do these so-called "peaceful" "protesters" have to say about it? Jack shit. They probably secretly enjoy it.

Everyone who chased down that guys car and pulled him out needs to be arrested and put in jail, and so does everyone else who participated in violence or called for violence during these riots.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: nooneman]
    #26887134 - 08/18/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

As I said, white executions in the street.

And these people don't even have much power right now. My hypothetical in my other thread is contingent on them having power. Imagine what kind of world this would look like if they were in charge. Instant return to fascist dictatorships, and therein lies all the irony of them calling themselves Antifa. :lol:


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/18/20 05:19 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887152 - 08/18/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Billy Ray said:
Quote:

christopera said:
If you actually believe that they are fascists then you fundamentally don’t understand fascism.




From Wiki, "Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation."
What's happening in Portland is political violence and these people believe what they're doing is leading to national rejuvenation.

More from Wiki's fascism page, "Fascism emphasizes direct action, including supporting the legitimacy of political violence, as a core part of its politics."  It's not enough to not be racist, you have to be an anti-racist to appease Leftists nowadays.

"This emphasis on the use of political violence means that most fascist parties have also created their own private militias (e.g. the Nazi Party's Brown shirts and Fascist Italy's Blackshirts)."  Hmm violent private militias....Sounds kinda like BLM and Antifa if you ask me. 


This article by Rachel Alexander makes a compelling argument as to why the Left is fascist.  I don't expect you to read it but if you do, I'd like to see you debunk it.  https://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2020/08/10/the-new-far-left-fascism-n2573993





Also from Wikipedia.

Quote:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism[1][2] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy[3] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[4] The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries.[4] Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5][6]





How convenient of you to skip over that part.

Notice how Antifa isn't authoritarian, dictatorial, forces suppression, or a strong regimentation of society?

Stop it with the cherry picking.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26887192 - 08/18/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You don't think cancel culture forces suppression?  Also, you don't think Antifa and BLM are authoritarian in nature?  Dictatorial per thefreedictionary.com, "Tending to tell others what to do in a presumptuous manner."  That sounds a lot like BLM and Antifa.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887216 - 08/18/20 05:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
As I said, white executions in the street.

And these people don't even have much power right now. My hypothetical in my other thread is contingent on them having power. Imagine what kind of world this would look like if they were in charge. Instant return to fascist dictatorships, and therein lies all the irony of them calling themselves Antifa. :lol:




They go after broke ass white peasants on the street instead of protesting the people in charge. They're a misguided group of people most likely taking orders from people that infiltrated the groups a long time ago.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887233 - 08/18/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't care if people scrutinize every single word I post - but if the best criticism you can bring forth is 'this is copypasta' then you should have spent more effort in researching your own argument.

If either of you had put in the effort of googling the claims of Andy Ngo or Project Veritas before echoing those claims here, effort that has clearly been put into googling my own posts, you would have found out that these are unethical journalists on your own and I wouldn't be having to debunk the same tired old fascist disinformation with the same tired old copypasta in response.




Based on your opinion of Tim Pool, our standards of what makes one "ethical" are clearly different.

Project Veritas videos should be taken on a case by case basis. Dismissing them all as categorically false is intellectually dishonest and WAY too convenient of an excuse to not look at something (keeping your head in the sand).

Same with Andy Gno videos. Case by case.



I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.

You keep asking me to take these things on a case by case basis, but you haven't made any attempt to verify any individual case beyond asking me to believe the words of an established liar.

I'll ask again: what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887286 - 08/18/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Billy Ray said:
You don't think cancel culture forces suppression?  Also, you don't think Antifa and BLM are authoritarian in nature?  Dictatorial per thefreedictionary.com, "Tending to tell others what to do in a presumptuous manner."  That sounds a lot like BLM and Antifa.




That is not the political definition, that is the definition when you are using the word to describe a pushy person.

Now, tell me how this applies to BLM and Antifa
Quote:

favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.




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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887298 - 08/18/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Project Veritas videos should be taken on a case by case basis. Dismissing them all as categorically false is intellectually dishonest and WAY too convenient of an excuse to not look at something (keeping your head in the sand).




The problem with project veritas is it is often very hard to tell how they are manipulating the information to suit their narrative. They should be dismissed out of hand and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with doing so. The have forfeited their credibility through past behavior. If someone lies to me half the time, it would be foolish to ever believe anything they say.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887304 - 08/18/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

And these people don't even have much power right now. My hypothetical in my other thread is contingent on them having power. Imagine what kind of world this would look like if they were in charge. Instant return to fascist dictatorships, and therein lies all the irony of them calling themselves Antifa.




You’re presenting this like it’s a fact, when in reality it’s a paranoid delusion


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887320 - 08/18/20 07:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

"At @Portland_State interfaith panel today, the Muslim student speaker said that apostates will be killed or banished in an Islamic state."




But this is actually true. In fact, it's actually generous. Ngo is slightly incorrect with his wording as NON-believers would have the option to be banished, but *apostates* would likely simply be killed. I'm genuinely confused how this was taken out of context... what exactly needed clarifying? I'm reading this over and over again. What was said that is untrue, exactly?




Really you can’t figure out what is wrong with what Ngo said and why it misrepresented the student’s words?

ngo clearly made it sound not only that the student endorsed killing apostates, but that he was making a threat.




He DOES endorse it. Are you saying he doesn't? :lol:




He was simply answering a question factually. He doesn’t give his opinion at all except to say “he won’t sugarcoat it,” which doesn’t sound like an endorsement at all.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887332 - 08/18/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Billy Ray said:
You don't think cancel culture forces suppression?  Also, you don't think Antifa and BLM are authoritarian in nature?  Dictatorial per thefreedictionary.com, "Tending to tell others what to do in a presumptuous manner."  That sounds a lot like BLM and Antifa.




That is not the political definition, that is the definition when you are using the word to describe a pushy person.

Now, tell me how this applies to BLM and Antifa
Quote:

favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.






They don’t have authority outside of cultural influence.  That doesn’t mean they don’t embody the characteristics of fascism.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887355 - 08/18/20 07:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That is true as long as you completely ignore the definition of fascism


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887362 - 08/18/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You know a tree by it’s fruits.  If these groups get people in government you will see laws implemented based on their actions which are fascist.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887382 - 08/18/20 07:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Getting people elected to change laws is fascist? That’s democracy dude.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods] * 1
    #26887386 - 08/18/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That’s not what I said dude


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887387 - 08/18/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It’s actually not surprising that people on the right now believe the democratic process is fascist 🤷‍♂️


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26887400 - 08/18/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

When did I say that?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887407 - 08/18/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What fascist laws do you expect they would enact?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887409 - 08/18/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What you said was so profoundly stupid that he had to infer beyond your words.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26887424 - 08/18/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What was stupid about it?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887428 - 08/18/20 08:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Everything.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26887431 - 08/18/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Why would anyone want to change their position when you mock them as individuals so heavily?

Billy Ray is not incorrect in his general assessment, anyway.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887437 - 08/18/20 08:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I’m not here to change your mind. I just like making fun of the ridiculous shit you say.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods] * 1
    #26887440 - 08/18/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You’re certainly not here to exchange ideas


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887444 - 08/18/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Why would anyone want to change their position when you mock them as individuals so heavily?

Billy Ray is not incorrect in his general assessment, anyway.




How did I mock him?

His assessment is not only incorrect, it is technically incorrect, which is the worst kind of incorrect. His own source proved as much. You have attempted to make the same ridiculous assertions many time, also without proof. As usual, you confirmation bias is too much for you to handle.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887447 - 08/18/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Billy Ray said:
What was stupid about it?



For starters,  neither BLM nor Antifa are organizations at all.  They're movements. They have no power structure, so the notion that they're authoritarian is beyond stupid.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26887448 - 08/18/20 08:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Why would anyone want to change their position when you mock them as individuals so heavily?

Billy Ray is not incorrect in his general assessment, anyway.




How did I mock him?

His assessment is not only incorrect, it is technically incorrect, which is the worst kind of incorrect. His own source proved as much. You have attempted to make the same ridiculous assertions many time, also without proof. As usual, you confirmation bias is too much for you to handle.



No it didn’t.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26887449 - 08/18/20 08:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Billy Ray said:
What was stupid about it?



For starters,  neither BLM nor Antifa are organizations at all.  They're movements. They have no power structure, so the notion that they're fascist is beyond stupid.



Lol


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26887452 - 08/18/20 08:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Billy Ray said:
What was stupid about it?



For starters,  neither BLM nor Antifa are organizations at all.  They're movements. They have no power structure, so the notion that they're authoritarian is beyond stupid.



What’s this?  https://blacklivesmatter.com/our-co-founders/


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887453 - 08/18/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Billy Ray said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Why would anyone want to change their position when you mock them as individuals so heavily?

Billy Ray is not incorrect in his general assessment, anyway.




How did I mock him?

His assessment is not only incorrect, it is technically incorrect, which is the worst kind of incorrect. His own source proved as much. You have attempted to make the same ridiculous assertions many time, also without proof. As usual, you confirmation bias is too much for you to handle.



No it didn’t.




You didn't do what?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887454 - 08/18/20 08:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A link.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26887456 - 08/18/20 08:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yes it is.  If you click it, you’ll see the picture and name of Patrice Cullors, who has the title of “Interim Director and Board President.”

That’s not an organizational position of power?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887457 - 08/18/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Of the foundation. Not of the movement.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26887459 - 08/18/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That doesn’t mean it’s not an organization.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887460 - 08/18/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The foundation is,  sure.  The foundation isn't in the streets protesting,  though.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887461 - 08/18/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The foundation isn't in the street protesting.



Exactly, because it’s an organization.  High level gangsters aren’t in the streets either, but they’re still in the gang


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887464 - 08/18/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So,  your argument isn't that black lives matter is fascist,  but that black lives matter foundation,  Inc. Is?

Just when I thought you hit the peak of stupidity, you fire another booster and go even further.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26887471 - 08/18/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Lol


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26887477 - 08/18/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think that's his argument.

I think he is saying that if the average BLM supporter or average member who "claims" to be Antifa had all the power, America would turn more fascist like in our behavior.

He isn't wrong.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26887486 - 08/18/20 09:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

There's absolutely nothing fascist about blm or antifa. That is just some right wing fantasy shit.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #26887537 - 08/18/20 10:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
These "protests" are not peaceful and have not been peaceful for a long time. Not only that, but despite the fact that they want to call themselves peaceful, they never denounce or try to stop the massive amounts of violence that occurs on the regular. Now some guy was physically pulled out of his truck and beaten unconscious and what do these so-called "peaceful" "protesters" have to say about it? Jack shit. They probably secretly enjoy it.

Everyone who chased down that guys car and pulled him out needs to be arrested and put in jail, and so does everyone else who participated in violence or called for violence during these riots.




What is scary is how integrated the candidate party is now in street gangs. If Trump wins Proud Boys integrate themselves stronger on the streets. If Biden wins Antifa considers it a victory. It is scary how much support the candidates this year are getting from protestors who have non stop roamed from city to city causing anarchy in each place they go for about 4 months now. Its so clear how Trump will not send Feds in to bust up Proud Boys the way Biden obviously won't to break up Antifa is he wins.

Voters now are influenced by what wandering thugs think and say out on the streets all day. The Presidency could not be any more of a mafia power seat then it ever has been. Not that it is not entirely literally as that is anyway with the pyramid of power up the chain of Congress and into the seat of POTUS and all the media and corporate buy outs in policies to get actual money buy outs to be put in such power. But now I feel like anyone with half a brain cell of awareness can see that these political street movements are fueling media perception and candidates are now not only allowing these thug organisations to continue mostly uninterrupted but they are being financed in a way as the media is purposefully covering them for political prestige.

It sounds like something from a super creative script rewritten from actual life events and reformed into beautiful semi-fiction like the script to Goodfellas. Fuck that though. Its 100% as real as it gets? Can anyone say otherwise? You guys have been arguing over it for 3 pages.

Fuck is it scary though? Yes. Who knows what future policies this country is going to see. We know someone will win. They will say whatever it takes to win. Once they get there they unleash whatever arsenal they truly have planned all they want and Congress battles over the legal pieces that make up our fragile daily lives for the next 4 years as the current POTUS tries to sway all the seats in The House and Senate as well. Fucking scary shit.

I can only guess what the next 4 years will be like. This is for sure though. The fate of ww3 will be decided in November. Every leader in every fucked up major world power country like Putin in Russia and China and the nations in Europe etc. are going to decide their own policies as well knowing how they can interact with the United States. Shit is going to be fucked up.

But even men as powerful as these man are still are so pathetic and desperate they need all the influence they can get from criminal organisations disguised as political street movements. A rat truly leaves no fucking crumb untouched eh? Pathetic but even more pathetic is how small we are in the grand scheme of this political mechanical beast called the world.

Fucked we all are but yet as surely as we are not yet. November decides the next world dictator.

They say every major empire in history has fallen. We came close this year when China released the biowarfare virus on the world. We still did not nuke them. Regardless, look at the state of the world now. How powerless we really are. Yet how low these rats will stoop to get a little more approval to get a little more power from all the ants. What do the next 4 years hold for us? Because as powerless as we all are in the total grand scheme of things we all do something major and the world stops for a day and even the POTUS blinks and has to think about it for a minute. Are we fucked all the way in the ass to a total world ending apocalypse coming up before 2024? Or do these rats in office have to come ask permission to nuke the whole world to hell first?

My questions may seem stupid but damn stop and think about this shit for a minute and tell me they are not good questions.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26887538 - 08/18/20 10:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The foundation is,  sure.  The foundation isn't in the streets protesting,  though.




Yeah it is


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26887540 - 08/18/20 10:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I don't think that's his argument.

I think he is saying that if the average BLM supporter or average member who "claims" to be Antifa had all the power, America would turn more fascist like in our behavior.

He isn't wrong.




Totally not

Quote:

Enlil said:
There's absolutely nothing fascist about blm or antifa. That is just some right wing fantasy shit.




You sure?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26889922 - 08/20/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't care if people scrutinize every single word I post - but if the best criticism you can bring forth is 'this is copypasta' then you should have spent more effort in researching your own argument.

If either of you had put in the effort of googling the claims of Andy Ngo or Project Veritas before echoing those claims here, effort that has clearly been put into googling my own posts, you would have found out that these are unethical journalists on your own and I wouldn't be having to debunk the same tired old fascist disinformation with the same tired old copypasta in response.




Based on your opinion of Tim Pool, our standards of what makes one "ethical" are clearly different.

Project Veritas videos should be taken on a case by case basis. Dismissing them all as categorically false is intellectually dishonest and WAY too convenient of an excuse to not look at something (keeping your head in the sand).

Same with Andy Gno videos. Case by case.



I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.

You keep asking me to take these things on a case by case basis, but you haven't made any attempt to verify any individual case beyond asking me to believe the words of an established liar.

I'll ask again: what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared?



And still no response.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26890106 - 08/20/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:

Quote:

Enlil said:
There's absolutely nothing fascist about blm or antifa. That is just some right wing fantasy shit.




You sure?



Yes


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26890110 - 08/20/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I cannot believe anyone thinks being able to attend constant protests and beat people up who do not support your political views and get away with it and do it again the next day at another protest rinse and repeat does not count as authoritarian power over political matters. Its in the media. People watch it. Its dictatorial as shit at least in the nature of itself. Cherry picking would be acting as though it is only dictatorial if the Government does it.

Same thing with right wing protests. Ok less beatings but if you don't support Trump the next day they show up with guns as long as it is an open carry state. Pretty dictatorial.

Now every protest is basically two groups about to fist fight. I know its constitutional and no one can take away someones right to protest.

But its like the cops are letting people fight it out as though the groups paid off the city from political parties. Hmmm, its almost exactly like that. Of course I cannot say it is exactly like that because I have no proof. Now the candidates use the protestors verbal maneuvering in their campaign rhetoric. Did Trump really come up with "Sleepy Joe" on his own the put it in ads? I feel like protestors at right wing rallies had signs that said "don't vote for sleepy Joe Biden unless you want a President with dementia."

It is scary how dictatorial any campaign where protest slang becomes campaign promises "hey the other guy is called so and so at on the street we are not going to let him win are we?" These people have too much power.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26890125 - 08/20/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Protesters have no authority at all.  Without authority, how can they be authoritarian?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26890127 - 08/20/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A man who can beat another man and influence political views throughout the media has no authority?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26890132 - 08/20/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Not unless that person has authority, which the protesters do not.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26890139 - 08/20/20 01:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

A violent person goes to jail to remove their authority over society and is placed so by someone with authority. Violent protestors not being arrested for violence gives authority and sends a strong political message. Candidates then use slang these political groups throw around to further fuel political hate towards opposite opponents. If that is not authority I do not know what is. "There are not enough cops around to cover these acts of violence" is not an excuse when there are usually 20 cops present less then a few hundred feet away. Its almost like they don't act unless backed by Feds with shields and clubs then they will go beat every person in the street. Seems like they are being granted authority.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26890157 - 08/20/20 02:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You seem to confuse force with authority.  Sometimes, I read your posts and wonder what your first language is.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26890182 - 08/20/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How does one enforce authority? What do they use? Sometimes I read your posts and think you are not actually a lawyer but just a troll who does not want to be wrong.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26890602 - 08/20/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I don't care if people scrutinize every single word I post - but if the best criticism you can bring forth is 'this is copypasta' then you should have spent more effort in researching your own argument.

If either of you had put in the effort of googling the claims of Andy Ngo or Project Veritas before echoing those claims here, effort that has clearly been put into googling my own posts, you would have found out that these are unethical journalists on your own and I wouldn't be having to debunk the same tired old fascist disinformation with the same tired old copypasta in response.




Based on your opinion of Tim Pool, our standards of what makes one "ethical" are clearly different.

Project Veritas videos should be taken on a case by case basis. Dismissing them all as categorically false is intellectually dishonest and WAY too convenient of an excuse to not look at something (keeping your head in the sand).

Same with Andy Gno videos. Case by case.



I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.

You keep asking me to take these things on a case by case basis, but you haven't made any attempt to verify any individual case beyond asking me to believe the words of an established liar.

I'll ask again: what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared?



And still no response.




Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26890614 - 08/20/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

We've been giving you days on all sorts of promises.

You writing these posts on your cell phone?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26890621 - 08/20/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I owe you nothing.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26890668 - 08/20/20 08:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I never said you did.

I’m just waiting for that Seattle real estate crash so I can buy some up. I figured you had an inside line since you were so prophetic about it.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel]
    #26890683 - 08/20/20 08:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
How does one enforce authority? What do they use? .



Stupid post. That's like saying cop cars are black and white so every black and white car must be a cop car.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26890688 - 08/20/20 08:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Seattle real estate is so expensive no crash is going to fix those prices. 20 years ago Seattle was cheaper then Miami, LA, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, you name it it was an up and coming city but well within value. At this point in history I would not be surprised if it was 2nd in price only to the level of price you would get from New York or San Fran. The best you could expect in a real estate crash in Seattle now would be like $500,000 average home price which for Seattle would be astonishing. There is no where else to build. Too many laws preventing any more destruction of natural area and Seattle is hardcore liberal they stick to their guns about that. Except liberals don't believe in guns.

Well it is the political forum after all


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil]
    #26890707 - 08/20/20 08:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
How does one enforce authority? What do they use? .



Stupid post. That's like saying cop cars are black and white so every black and white car must be a cop car.




No I am saying authority is established with force. I like you how start typing while I am writing another post a few times today already you done that. Good use of the who's online.

No I am not saying that at all about black and white cops cars. I am pointing out how stupid your idea is that authority is only established under law. Force is authority and law uses force to establish authority. Your post is like saying in prison the prison bitch of the yard is not under fascist authority because its not under prison law. It is force. It is allowed to happen. It is authority. Your definition and mine is very different but to me any violence that is financed in any way shape or form and left untouched is authority. Even more so any violence with strong racial undertones so much so that its hard to call it an undertone is racial violence. So any racially violent unchecked and indirectly financed authority is still authority.

Fascist rule was decided in the society first then adopted by the government. Governments are only macrocosisms of societies anyway. I even had to use that word. Macroscosm.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26891045 - 08/21/20 03:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

Quote:

Enlil said:
There's absolutely nothing fascist about blm or antifa. That is just some right wing fantasy shit.




You sure?



Yes




It's funny the way some people can't admit fascism is right wing, and just thinks it's a synonym for oppressive government.  I guess because our culture vilifies Nazi Germany so much, and modern conservatives can't deal with being on the same side as them on the political spectrum.  BLM and Antifa may contain some elements of Marxism, but Marxism in the 21st century means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Everyone is entitled to their own political viewpoint, but at least know the difference between the right and the left.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #26891054 - 08/21/20 04:02 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
How does one enforce authority? What do they use? Sometimes I read your posts and think you are not actually a lawyer but just a troll who does not want to be wrong.




I think he's really a lawyer. I've had a couple lawyers, and in court they sometimes speak in a legally technical manner. Sometimes Enlil posts in that fashion. I think it would be really hard to fake it.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26891058 - 08/21/20 04:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
We've been giving you days on all sorts of promises.

You writing these posts on your cell phone?




Two tin cans connected by string, but the tin foil hat is causing interference. Maybe if he moves next to a 5G tower it will make more sense.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26891984 - 08/21/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:

It's painfully true. If you find my criticism of Andy Ngo to be weak, provide your own counter-argument. So far I've provided copious amounts of evidence and reasoning to support my claim - you've provided nothing.







Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Ok... Shiva's post makes a WHOLE lot more sense now. It's a copy-paste from this site.




:canthelpbutlaugh:



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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Niffla]
    #26892061 - 08/21/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Feel free to consider me a fraud, but I wonder if anyone will ever manage to stop commenting on my character and actually attempt to contest the points in the post.


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
The argument always comes back to my character when my points can't be contested. I'm used to it. :shrug:



At least three times now you've turned the discussion to whether my posts are my own words or not, rather than contest the point so :shrug:




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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26892246 - 08/21/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It's not your character directly. It's the fact you took 30 seconds to copy-paste something and you're demanding a counter argument quickly *as if* YOU had the time to write it. ("So why doesn't anyone else?") Your level of expectation from OTHERS is not only completely out of sync with the effort you've put in yourself, but you've projected yourself AS IF you put in the effort.

See, if you actually fucking wrote it, you could hold that higher ground right now, which is why the deception of making people THINK you wrote it is insidious whether you agree or not.

In order to play on your level, I could get back to your point in a month if I feel like it and you still wouldn't be able to demand shit, because you've done no actual work thus far. I'm not impressed, and lesser so that you deceive people into thinking it is your own words.

I'll get to replying to everything, and I'll actually put in the work when I have time, and for you to act like someone OUGHT to have come back with a full retort by now in order to be on your level is complete nonsense with the context we now have. (TBH I could have done it tonight but spontaneous last minute plans came up. I'll get to it as soon as I can, because I'm interested in this.)


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/21/20 07:56 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26892325 - 08/21/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You've spent more time making excuses as to why you haven't replied yet than you would have just replying in the first place.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #26892341 - 08/21/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
You've spent more time making excuses as to why you haven't replied yet than you would have just replying in the first place.



No he hasn’t.  Shiva’s post is extensive.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray] * 1
    #26892499 - 08/21/20 09:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Billy Ray said:
Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
You've spent more time making excuses as to why you haven't replied yet than you would have just replying in the first place.



No he hasn’t.  Shiva’s post is extensive.



Quote:

Vahn421 said:


RATHER than contest the point? No, that's untrue. I'm getting back to your points as much as I can, just give it time.

Secondly, there's a critical difference between a personal attack and pointing out someone likes to copy-paste words and claim them as their own.

Dude, you spent what, 30 seconds copying and pasting that Andy Gno thread and now you're gonna get on my case for not having the three hours necessary to go through it overnight, while simultaneously not admitting you didn't do dick shit for work to make your points, but just plagiarized someone else's work?

This is partially  why your tactics are deceptive. My initial reply to you which was like two or three statements required more effort and thought than your copy-paste, but you're making everyone else feel like you've done all this great research yourself when in reality you're just stealing credit.

So if you want me to put up, you're gonna have to give it time. A rebuttal is going to take a lot more effort than a lazy, no work required copy-paste. And now that I know you didn't write all that shit yourself, I don't feel as rushed to get back to it, either. Why should I work 30 times harder than you're willing to?



Quote:

Vahn421 said:


I post more sources when arguing than anyone on the fucking forum aside from Shiva and maybe Falcon. (And the majority of sources that come from Shiva are copy-pasted.) :rolleyes:

And I never said anything about not rebutting arguments. I said it's going to take time to rebuttal. You're criticizing me for not having 3 hours when all Shiva did was copy-paste. 



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Whether my work is original or not has no bearing on the merit of the argument itself.




LMAO. This is literally the point I'm making about project veritas videos. The merit of the video stands alone. Whether or not it came from PV is not relevant in the grand scheme, only to give us more context initially.

But regardless, we source information in order to not appear like we're stealing it. Knowing who wrote it is important, as you also know. It's just not the final say on the piece.

I'll get back to your other questions. I'm not avoiding them intentionally. I've been on the road.



Quote:

Vahn421 said:



Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you.



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I can mostly agree with your take on that minus a little nuance.

I should be able to get back to you tomorrow. Also, my respect for you is growing. You're very adept at staying on point and being thorough, unlike most everyone else here.



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
It's not your character directly. It's the fact you took 30 seconds to copy-paste something and you're demanding a counter argument quickly *as if* YOU had the time to write it. ("So why doesn't anyone else?") Your level of expectation from OTHERS is not only completely out of sync with the effort you've put in yourself, but you've projected yourself AS IF you put in the effort.

See, if you actually fucking wrote it, you could hold that higher ground right now, which is why the deception of making people THINK you wrote it is insidious whether you agree or not.

In order to play on your level, I could get back to your point in a month if I feel like it and you still wouldn't be able to demand shit, because you've done no actual work thus far. I'm not impressed, and lesser so that you deceive people into thinking it is your own words.

I'll get to replying to everything, and I'll actually put in the work when I have time, and for you to act like someone OUGHT to have come back with a full retort by now in order to be on your level is complete nonsense with the context we now have. (TBH I could have done it tonight but spontaneous last minute plans came up. I'll get to it as soon as I can, because I'm interested in this.)




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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #26892514 - 08/21/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have to do hours and hours of research to spit these one to three minute posts out.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26893074 - 08/22/20 08:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If all I was doing was dumping shit here, blowing up my argument should be easy - but I didn't just take "30 seconds to copy-paste something" - I spent the time to look into the veracity of every claim made. We both know this because you already tried to contest one of the claims made, and quickly ran into a wall when I responded back (in my own words, for the record).

And what then was your response?

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Ok... Shiva's post makes a WHOLE lot more sense now. It's a copy-paste from this site. (or one similar.) I thought he had written all that up himself for a moment.




I'm gonna just let Vahn421 criticize Vahn421 here:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
The argument always comes back to my character when my points can't be contested. I'm used to it. :shrug:





Just look at this highlighted phrasing:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
It's not your character directly.

[...]

the deception of making people THINK you wrote it is insidious whether you agree or not.




It's clear you believe copy-and-pasting paints my character as deceptive and insidious - not the information in the post - and you've already agreed with this assessment:

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I can mostly agree with your take on that minus a little nuance.

I should be able to get back to you tomorrow. Also, my respect for you is growing. You're very adept at staying on point and being thorough, unlike most everyone else here.






Whenever you're ready to stop pretending that copypasta is the crime of the century, I'll be waiting for you to contest any of my points. I've already suggested you start with my criticism of that one Project Veritas video you shared if you are truly upset with the Ngo Go Zone being copypasta.

Tick tock


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray] * 1
    #26893124 - 08/22/20 08:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I mean, anyone on the fence about whether or not to support BLM has probably (just a hunch) been completely turned away on account of antics like these https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1296680721591889922

So what is the objective? Are they just trying to provoke and piss people off? I mean in the posted video it seems like some immature person indulging in the license to be obnoxious for its own sake and unguided by any ethos. If there's more context to that video I'd like to know.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: yeah]
    #26894255 - 08/22/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

And yet despite some cases of mob action, the public still supports the protests. People are also seeing the police initiating conflict.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26894796 - 08/23/20 05:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

These protest are being used for political reasons the democrats are letting them continue because they think it makes Trump look bad an joe look like hes a hero.

When really trump is gaining more support because people are over this protesting. People are done with business being looted an weak mayers an governors giving these protesters a free pass to cause chaos.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: yeah]
    #26894798 - 08/23/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
I mean, anyone on the fence about whether or not to support BLM has probably (just a hunch) been completely turned away on account of antics like these https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1296680721591889922

So what is the objective? Are they just trying to provoke and piss people off? I mean in the posted video it seems like some immature person indulging in the license to be obnoxious for its own sake and unguided by any ethos. If there's more context to that video I'd like to know.


most of my black friends really hate BLM they say it makes black people look weak an desperate an that it's turning people against what they really want an that just have there voices heard an people to pay attention to what's going on in there communities.

Im all for a good cause as long as your agenda is not forcing people to act or think on there terms


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Mach z 800]
    #26895035 - 08/23/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I can see validity in this post. However, I completely disagree with the one you posted above that Trump is gaining support over this. He's trying to use this as a reason to gain support, but at least so far, it's not working.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26895083 - 08/23/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It’s working..

For anyone paying attention it is.  These mayors are making a good case for why they shouldn’t be allowed to run shit and how nothing is too low for them to try to pull.  You have to be paying attention and not getting your news from Facebook memes though.  Some people are irreparably blind dumb..


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26895431 - 08/23/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I completely disagree that Trump is gaining support over this. He's trying to use this as a reason to gain support, but at least so far, it's not working.



It’s working..



Here's the latest consolidated Trump approval ratings:  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/



Trump's approval ratings have gone up about 2% in the last month.  :shrug:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26895446 - 08/23/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Trump is still a dead man in this election. It's the swing states that he's losing very badly in, that's not likely to change. At this point, it will still be a landslide victory for Biden.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman]
    #26895564 - 08/23/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Why Biden choose a  VP,  not in a swing state was stupid. Undecided if I think Trump will win.... but it seems the Dems are making it a much tougher fight then it needs to be.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26895797 - 08/23/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Trump is going to win 2020 by a larger margin than he beat Hillary.

How is everyone falling for the same thing we fell for in 2016? Didn't we learn our lesson once?


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/23/20 06:17 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26896159 - 08/23/20 11:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Democrats learned their lesson. The only reason trump won is that nobody actually thought someone so absurdly ridiculous could actually win the election.

Trump is going to lose. The question is will he lose in a humiliating fashion or not.


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Edited by koods (08/23/20 11:19 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Amanita86] * 1
    #26896176 - 08/23/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
It’s working..

For anyone paying attention it is.  These mayors are making a good case for why they shouldn’t be allowed to run shit and how nothing is too low for them to try to pull.  You have to be paying attention and not getting your news from Facebook memes though.  Some people are irreparably blind dumb..



Black lives matter polls 30% higher than trump.

Trumps big problem from now until the election is going to be the absolute chaos manifesting in schools. The push to get kids back into classrooms is predictably falling apart in very inconvenient ways. Parents who were expecting their kids to be out of the house again are going to have to scramble to deal with them being sent home for quarantine or worse. I think people are just tired of him being wrong about everything.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods] * 1
    #26896190 - 08/23/20 11:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

People are more tired of everyone blaming Trump for everything.

A president is not God. America should be taking care of itself, too.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26896479 - 08/24/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Trump is wrong about everything, and subsequently being blamed for everything, in part because he's so full of shit that he makes promises he's incapable of keeping. For example, he promised "beautiful" healthcare, and he promised to never cut Medicare and Medicaid.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/la-na-trump-healthcare-20160303-story.html
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/16/15807806/trump-breaking-health-promises

Four years later, there is no health care reform, and the 2021 Medicare budget shows $500B cuts in spending over ten years.

https://www.cbpp.org/blog/medicare-in-the-2021-trump-budget

Trump was at the helm during a time where his party held all three branches, and he wasn't even able to create "beautiful" healthcare. While his party held two branches, they slashed funding for healthcare for older Americans. And, his administration is doing the same for Medicaid, which provides healthcare to the poorest Americans. In fact, they are setting both Medicare and Medicaid up to fail by cutting funding, while acting like it reduces tax burden for non working Americans. Which is a another lie of his, because non-working people don't even pay that tax.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlaszewski2/2020/08/09/trump-calls-for-making-permanent-cuts-to-both-the-medicare-and-social-security-payroll-taxes/#3806ff0a208e

https://www.cbpp.org/research/health/trump-administrations-harmful-changes-to-medicaid

So, this leaves us to conclude, that at least in regards to that very "beautiful" healthcare (a serious issue I reckon) we were all looking forward to, Trump is absolutely to blame for a lack of progress. Instead, we have actually regressed under his leadership.

So for those who are tired of him getting blamed for things, BOOO FUCKING HOOO. He's failed in an epic manner with healthcare, and this just one of many examples.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Mach z 800]
    #26896573 - 08/24/20 08:21 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mach z 800 said:
These protest are being used for political reasons



Isn't that the whole point of a protest?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones] * 2
    #26898082 - 08/25/20 03:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

imachavel said:

Quote:

Enlil said:
There's absolutely nothing fascist about blm or antifa. That is just some right wing fantasy shit.




You sure?



Yes




It's funny the way some people can't admit fascism is right wing, and just thinks it's a synonym for oppressive government.  I guess because our culture vilifies Nazi Germany so much, and modern conservatives can't deal with being on the same side as them on the political spectrum.  BLM and Antifa may contain some elements of Marxism, but Marxism in the 21st century means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

Everyone is entitled to their own political viewpoint, but at least know the difference between the right and the left.




Ever play Pac-Man? sometimes you go so far left that you vanish and appear on the far right of the screen and BOOM just like that your a fascist!


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: 1uptoadstool]
    #26898335 - 08/25/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some political scientists view the political spectrum as being circular, and the extreme left and right can wind up in a similar place. But there's no denying the role that big capital plays in fascism, and little or no role in communism.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26898441 - 08/25/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Personally, I'm a proponent of fish hook theory. There is a strong intersection between centrist neoliberalism and fascism; and historically centrists have enabled fascism with predictable frequency.



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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26898446 - 08/25/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898456 - 08/25/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.

No justice - no peace.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: 1uptoadstool]
    #26898467 - 08/25/20 10:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ever play Pac-Man? sometimes you go so far left that you vanish and appear on the far right of the screen and BOOM just like that your a fascist!




LMFAO!


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26898469 - 08/25/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.

No justice - no peace.




If you're talking about the video above your comment, this has to be the most twisted, fucked up logic I've ever seen.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898482 - 08/25/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Why? You blame the riots for the harm they have both directly and indirectly caused. A source Billy Ray provided even blamed a police murder on the riots.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
In the period of time the riots have existed, more black people have died directly or indirectly due to the rioting than there have been police shootings, including children... something cops pretty much never do. :shrug:






Why can't I do the same for the police?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26898488 - 08/25/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898499 - 08/25/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.


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Edited by christopera (08/25/20 10:48 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898504 - 08/25/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I blamed the cops, not the business owner. Are you suggesting that the cops are the battered housewife in your analogy?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898507 - 08/25/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

On the other hand, you appear to be blaming victims of police abuse and violence for their treatment:

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."




Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
A source Billy Ray provided even blamed a police murder on the riots.





Murderous cop immediately after killing business owner: " I only shot you because you make me angry. It's your fault."
Vahn421: "Yup, blame it on the riots."


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898552 - 08/25/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898556 - 08/25/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.

No justice - no peace.




It's more than just the killer cops, it's a unjust laws and everyday policing tactics that brings out that level of frustration to the streets. I really wish the narrative of 'killer cops' would stop being the only rational for the protests and frustration we're seeing across the US today. Essentially, it lets the whole Establishment and criminal justice system off the hook.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman]
    #26898559 - 08/25/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I agree with that assessment. Protest slogans and nuance don't often go together.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898573 - 08/25/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.



If you're talking about the video above your comment, this has to be the most twisted, fucked up logic I've ever seen.



I agree with Vahn.  I'm surprised anyone here is blaming the cops because a bunch of thugs burned a guys business down and knocked him to the ground when he tried to protect it.


But even more fucked up logic is here, where it was claimed cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.

I side with Vahn that the killing of that guy was absolutely wrong, but the odds of him being shot when he decided to be disobedient probably went up many thousands of times, which I think is obvious to most here.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898575 - 08/25/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26898577 - 08/25/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26898581 - 08/25/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

As Qman has stated a few times already then, why not go after those that are actually causing the harm? Why are innocent people targets of rioting and looting? Even tearing up larger chains like Target means job loss often for minority communities. Why block the traffic of innocent bystanders?

Don't you want allies?

I WAS a fucking ally until the left started doing this shit in the mainstream against the innocent. I want to make that very clear. Me and many people I know were on your side until you all started going off against fucking over innocent people for no god damn good reason.

You're not going to get us as allies until you stop doing that.

And nobody I know that thinks the way I do is blind to the mistakes cops make and the reform that needs to happen, in particular the ending of the drug war... but I'm not a fan of the extremism against law-enforcement because it is the least-worst option we have until humans as a collective species become more enlightened.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898587 - 08/25/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But even more fucked up logic is here, where it was claimed cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders..



I provided supporting evidence for my claim. Compliance is not protection from police violence.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Ah, the ol' 'just follow orders' defence.

Like Philando Castile?

Quote:

The police dashcam video shows that 40 seconds elapsed between when Yanez first started talking to Castile through the car window and when Yanez began shooting at him. According to the dashcam, after Yanez asked for Castile's driver's license and proof of insurance, Castile gave him his proof of insurance card, which Yanez appeared to glance at and tuck in his outer pocket. Castile then calmly informed Yanez: "Sir, I have to tell you that I do have a firearm on me."

Before Castile completed the sentence, Yanez interrupted and calmly replied, "OK," and placed his right hand on the holster of his own holstered weapon. Yanez said, "Okay, don't reach for it, then ... don't pull it out." Castile responded, "I'm not pulling it out," and Reynolds also said, "He's not pulling it out." Yanez repeated, raising his voice, "Don't pull it out!" as he quickly pulled his own gun with his right hand and reached inside the driver's window with his left hand. Reynolds screamed, "No!" Yanez removed his left arm from the car and fired seven shots in the direction of Castile in rapid succession. Reynolds yelled, "You just killed my boyfriend!" Castile moaned and said, "I wasn't reaching for it." Reynolds loudly said, "He wasn't reaching for it." Before she completed her sentence, Yanez again screamed, "Don't pull it out!" Reynolds responded, "He wasn't." Yanez yelled, "Don't move! Fuck!"






Or Daniel Shaver?

Quote:

Police Sergeant Charles Langley then ordered Shaver, who was lying prone, to cross his legs. Moments later, he ordered Shaver to push himself "up to a kneeling position". While complying with the order to kneel, Shaver uncrossed his legs and Langley shouted that Shaver needed to keep his legs crossed. Startled, Shaver then put his hands behind his back and was again warned by Langley to keep his hands in the air. Langley yelled at Shaver that if he deviated from police instructions again, they would shoot him. Sergeant Langley told Shaver not to put his hands down for any reason. Shaver said, "Please don't shoot me". Upon being instructed to crawl, Shaver put his hands down and crawled on all fours. While crawling towards the officers, Shaver paused and moved his right hand towards his waistband. Officer Philip Brailsford, who later testified he believed that Shaver was reaching for a weapon, then opened fire with his AR-15 rifle, striking Shaver five times and killing him almost instantly. Shaver was unarmed, and may have been attempting to prevent his shorts from slipping down.







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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898594 - 08/25/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898595 - 08/25/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)



The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy. No one has blamed the business owner - we're calling out the police violence (like shooting an unarmed man in the back multiple times) for continuing to create public unrest.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898598 - 08/25/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.



It's still not wrong to claim " cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.."


This statement, on the other hand, is certainly make believe and I'm surprised it got past you: "Both this guy and George Floyd would be alive if they just complied." source


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898602 - 08/25/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
As Qman has stated a few times already then, why not go after those that are actually causing the harm? Why are innocent people targets of rioting and looting? Even tearing up larger chains like Target means job loss often for minority communities. Why block the traffic of innocent bystanders?

Don't you want allies?

I WAS a fucking ally until the left started doing this shit in the mainstream against the innocent. I want to make that very clear. Me and many people I know were on your side until you all started going off against fucking over innocent people for no god damn good reason.

You're not going to get us as allies until you stop doing that.

And nobody I know that thinks the way I do is blind to the mistakes cops make and the reform that needs to happen, in particular the ending of the drug war... but I'm not a fan of the extremism against law-enforcement because it is the least-worst option we have until humans as a collective species become more enlightened.




An emotional mob has no clarity of thought, it has no intellect like you're expecting. The chaos and destruction has proven to get attention despite its misguidance.

Has the movement moved on at times to where it should?  Yes, but it's spotty at best. A frustrated mob will come in and out of clarity, it just depends on the environment.

You have to understand, The Elite doesn't want the mob to bring up the 'war on drugs' and 'criminal justice reform'. They want to bring down statues and have the police reform themselves and not change a dam thing.

There is no negotiation with The Elite on this issue, it's either hit the streets or live with the status quo. There is no self reforming this system, it doesn't work in that manner.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman]
    #26898620 - 08/25/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)




When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.

It’s been proven time and time again that certain groups are either stripped of the stakeholder status or simply not included in the first place. What are we going to do about it? Some people are distraught because Starbucks was burnt down. Cry me a river.


--------------------
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A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

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I’m sorry it had to be me.


Edited by christopera (08/25/20 12:05 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898622 - 08/25/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)



The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy.



You missed the main point - "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."  That's exactly what the protesters are saying about the harm they are now doing.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898630 - 08/25/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.



It's still not wrong to claim " cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.."


This statement, on the other hand, is certainly make believe and I'm surprised it got past you: "Both this guy and George Floyd would be alive if they just complied." source



I didn't miss that.  I'm saying the guy's odds of getting shot went from about one in a million to about one in a thousand when he didn't comply (of course, I don't know the exact odds; my point is that the odds of him getting shot went WAY up).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898633 - 08/25/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.




Ok bro, so let's get into it... and here's my first thought: You confuse the fuck out of me because if anyone here IS Antifa, it's you. I'm like 90% convinced you're a member of Antifa and you're likely apart of a faction, which means, you'd KNOW that this group below is also a part of Antifa. (You've never denied it.) And you'd know that the rioters who break shit up and burn shit are also often, Antifa.

Are you or are you not apart of Antifa? Are you sworn to secrecy even on an anonymous account? All I can think of when I see you is, "Antifa." So this is your chance to correct the record, because until you DO, I'm going to continue to associate you as being affiliated with them, and anyone that wasn't would not really have a problem setting the record straight.

It's like you're apart of something and you're allowing everyone else to entertain a false idea about Antifa because you think the ends justify the means. I wouldn't put this past you given how you have a habit of plagiarizing as well. In your mind, you have justified deception for what you consider to be the greater good, and I find deception of that kind to be abhorrent, so we ideologically clash, honestly.

I KNOW how Antifa organizes because my exes brother is/was Antifa, Shiva. I may not get all the details right, but I know they are more organized than they say on the surface. I'm not a fucking fool and I've had an insider's peek.

After you speak your mind on all that, we can talk about the video below. Here it is just to refresh people's memory. I believe my commentary on it and reason for posting it had to do with it being evidence of them being "organized" in groups. Again, I find your mockery of the point, given that you probably ARE with Antifa, to be maliciously deceptive. Now is your chance to completely deny association with Antifa, or my point stands.




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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898646 - 08/25/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.




I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I just know what it looks like when one group becomes what they hate. The rioters are on the path to the Dark Side, it's really as simple as that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

If you want to burn something to the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26898648 - 08/25/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal.



So far we agree.

Quote:

christopera said:
Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.

It’s been proven time and time again that certain groups are either stripped of the stakeholder status or simply not included in the first place. What are we going to do about it? Some people are distraught because Starbucks was burnt down. Cry me a river.



I think the first thing we can do is stop misrepresenting Vahn's opinion.  I know exactly where he is coming from.  He thinks it's wrong for the protesters to damage businesses and hurt the owners, and you don't seem to care ("cry me a river").

I think we can have these differences of opinion without accusing the other of extreme positions.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898652 - 08/25/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy.



You missed the main point - "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."  That's exactly what the protesters are saying about the harm they are now doing.




Those you's appear to conflate police and business owners as one group. I only hit [business owner] because [police] make me angry. It's [police] fault. Vahn421's analogy fails.

On the other hand, the only evidence I've seen in defence of Vahn421's claim literally includes blaming a police murder on the riots. Although Vahn421 has stated that they don't necessarily endorse Billy Ray's defence of Vahn421's claim so I'm still open for them to provide alternative evidence.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898657 - 08/25/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.



It's still not wrong to claim " cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.."


This statement, on the other hand, is certainly make believe and I'm surprised it got past you: "Both this guy and George Floyd would be alive if they just complied." source



I didn't miss that.  I'm saying the guy's odds of getting shot went from about one in a million to about one in a thousand when he didn't comply (of course, I don't know the exact odds; my point is that the odds of him getting shot went WAY up).



Okay but Vahn421 didn't say that. So, to be clear, instead of criticizing Vahn421 for a claim that we both agree to be make believe, you criticised me for making a claim that wasn't make believe. Okay.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898663 - 08/25/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy.



You missed the main point - "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."  That's exactly what the protesters are saying about the harm they are now doing.




Those you's appear to conflate police and business owners as one group. I only hit [business owner] because [police] make me angry. It's [police] fault. Vahn421's analogy fails.



Ok, it wasn't a perfect analogy; I'll give you a gold star.  But Vahn's point was still pretty clear as I explained above.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898669 - 08/25/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Okay but Vahn421 didn't say that. So, to be clear, instead of criticizing Vahn421 for a claim that we both agree to be make believe, you criticised me for making a claim that wasn't make believe. Okay.



Again, I understood Vahn's intent, but you can have another gold star.  Clarity is good.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898674 - 08/25/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time .
  They were threatening it not too long ago during Trumps impeachment .
  I feel like it’s a coping mechanism at this point .
 
How would that even happen considering there are no lines drawn over territory ?
  Are conservatives just going to start shooting every black person they see ?
That’s what I think would happen .


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898688 - 08/25/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's the thing about rioting... it's not just one thing that it brings with it. Some people go into an emotional frenzy and just follow the mob, some people us the crowd as cover to do bad things, and then some people like Antifa all dress in black and intentionally use it to create anonymous cover for themselves and others in order to intentionally and deliberately break the law in groups. It's all one formula, so when An 8 year old girl is shot near the area people had been protesting for days, we blame the presence of the riots.

It's the same for many similar cases. People in the protests aren't arming themselves with guns to go shoot people, obviously, but the undisciplined energy unleashed on the streets brings with it child-like and adolescent reactions, not mature, wise, adult-like actions.

Breaking shit when you're angry is not mature and wise, it is adolescent.

Blocking traffic is not mature and wise, it's adolescent.

Adolescent energy brings with it similar consequences. It spreads around, harming the innocent in its wake.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898696 - 08/25/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
After you speak your mind on all that, we can talk about the video below.



Oh, more pointless hoops I need to jump through before you'll deign to provide us with an answer. Once again, instead of answering a question in good faith, you have written an essay about my personal character. "If anyone here IS Antifa, it's you." - well then maybe listen to me when I tell you that everything you believe about Antifa™ is fucking stupid and absolutely wrong.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.




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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26898697 - 08/25/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898714 - 08/25/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
After you speak your mind on all that, we can talk about the video below.



Oh, more pointless hoops I need to jump through before you'll deign to provide us with an answer. Once again, instead of answering a question in good faith, you have written an essay about my personal character. "If anyone here IS Antifa, it's you." - well then maybe listen to me when I tell you that everything you believe about Antifa™ is fucking stupid and absolutely wrong.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.








You won't admit you're with Antifa.

You plagiarize.

And yet here you are harping on about how we shouldn't take PV seriously AT ALL, and it has NO MERIT WHATSOEVER because they've been caught deceiving others. (And I've argued that point despite agreeing they have flaws.)

By your own logic, I should completely block you and never take your seriously, because I've caught you now. Twice. (You won't deny your association with Antifa. I'm waiting.)

But because I find your logic deplorable, I'm not gonna block you. Good thing I don't think like you, really. Because you'd be the first to go. Everyone else here just has a big ego... but there's something about you I just can't put my finger on, but your willingness to deceive on one hand and then talk about how we should completely ignore deceivers without entertaining them at all on the other is honestly laughable.

And to be honest, I hate talking about people... but you just bring me to this level. I don't know what it is about your method, but knowing that anti deception and anti-censorship is like my life's mission, I think everything about your style just rubs me the wrong way.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 12:46 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898742 - 08/25/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's the difference.

I showed that Project Veritas: (1) has made incorrect claims, (2) knew the claims were incorrect when making them, (3) deceptively edited video to provide misleading evidence in support of their incorrect claim.

All three of those were required before I labeled PV as an intentionally deceptive organization.

You showed that I: (1) copy-paste without attribution. You didn't show that the information I copy-paste was incorrect, nor that I knew the claims being copied were incorrect, nor that I deceptively edited what I copy-paste in order to provide misleading evidence.


I claimed that Project Veritas publishes intentionally deceptive information, and therefore Project Veritas is intentionally deceptive.
You claimed that I am intentionally deceptive, and therefore my information is intentionally deceptive.

I attacked the information to get at the character - you attacked the character to get at the information.

That's a significant and fundamental difference. If you are here to discuss in good faith, answer questions posed to you in good faith!


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898802 - 08/25/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Let me clarify MY position: I am not saying PV's deception is above or below yours, I am saying deception is deception and I want the truth of it no matter what, and I find neither you, nor PV, to be discounted entirely based on your deception.

I understand you've justified your deception. We all have done that. That is why exposure matters more to me than judgment. That is why content matters to me more than anything, regardless of the TYPE of deception, whether it is your style or PV's style, it is deception.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898806 - 08/25/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I claimed that Project Veritas publishes intentionally deceptive information, and therefore Project Veritas is intentionally deceptive.




I think they have justified their deception for personal moral reasons in the same way you have yours, and you would be all the wiser for realizing it.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 01:26 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898834 - 08/25/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If deception on the part of PV or myself isn't enough to discount the content, then let's return to the content.

I've already provided my opinion of it: It's video of self-defence classes interspersed with the "infiltrator" (ie, signed up for the gym class) narrating a completely different story about terrorism - ominous background music - and a slideshow of unrelated riots at the very end.

What have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening.

I assume it's to do with the existence of a domestic terror organization named "Antifa" but perhaps you could start by restating the claim supported by the video.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898879 - 08/25/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)






That’s an awfully threatening statement for someone who claims the desire for civil war is bullshit .


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898893 - 08/25/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.

Content over creator is my position, which is why I didn't dismiss your content even though you plagiarized, I simply wanted the accuracy of everyone's position.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898898 - 08/25/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
If deception on the part of PV or myself isn't enough to discount the content, then let's return to the content.

I've already provided my opinion of it: It's video of self-defence classes interspersed with the "infiltrator" (ie, signed up for the gym class) narrating a completely different story about terrorism - ominous background music - and a slideshow of unrelated riots at the very end.

What have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening.

I assume it's to do with the existence of a domestic terror organization named "Antifa" but perhaps you could start by restating the claim supported by the video.




I believe I originally shared the video to prove that organized factions of Antifa actually exist, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, we've discussed so much I can't recall now. (I found the video through someone else re-posting it.)

I don't recall ever personally arguing that this video is proof of how I feel about Antifa and their actions on the street (there are better ways to make that case)and I also find the music to be eye-rolling.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 02:28 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26898905 - 08/25/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)






That’s an awfully threatening statement for someone who claims the desire for civil war is bullshit .




It's not threatening, the left is going to eat itself. The right won't even have to do anything.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898939 - 08/25/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)




Leftist cities, what does that even mean?  Most cities are pro-business and anti-worker. Those cities put money before people in almost all cases. What's leftist about it?  Black mayors and police chiefs that just take orders from their higher masters?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898952 - 08/25/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It's video of self-defence classes interspersed with the "infiltrator" (ie, signed up for the gym class) narrating a completely different story about terrorism - ominous background music - and a slideshow of unrelated riots at the very end.

What have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening.

I assume it's to do with the existence of a domestic terror organization named "Antifa" but perhaps you could start by restating the claim supported by the video.




I believe I originally shared the video to prove that organized factions of Antifa actually exist, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, we've discussed so much I can't recall now. (I found the video through someone else re-posting it.)

I don't recall ever personally arguing that this video is proof of how I feel about Antifa and their actions on the street (there are better ways to make that case)and I also find the music to be eye-rolling.



That would appear to be correct, but the video evidence alone doesn't establish this.

In the video, the organization is "The Base" - not "Antifa". Their website self-describes as an "anarchist political center" but there is no mention of Antifa or even antifascist - all signs point to it being an anarchist infoshop that offers self-defence classes. Infoshops are not murky phenomena - I'm sure there's one nearby where you would be welcome to visit.

The only thing that connects The Base to an organization named "Antifa" is the video title and the anonymous narration of the infiltrator. Further claims like "They were definitely learning tactics that were not in for defence. It was definitely for offence. On the front, on their website they would say that these were defensive classes but all the tactics they used were offensive." are also completely unsupported by anything in the video.

Edit: Furthermore, practices like ominous music and the unrelated slideshow of riots suggest an attempt to dishonestly influence the viewers perception of the video.

Why should we believe the claims of the narrator?


Edited by shivas.wisdom (08/25/20 03:12 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26899024 - 08/25/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I will concede upon finding the website for, The Base, that there is no concrete admission of them being linked to Antifa™. They have of course the anarchist symbol in their window which many people can confuse with a symbol of Antifa, especially because of the, "A." They also seem to share all the same ideals that Antifa shares, at least on the general level.

And to be truthful, it is not Antifa as a group that bothers me per ce, and one could argue in many instances it is not even their ideals, it is simply their means to the end. I think in most cases they are accomplishing the opposite of what they think they are accomplishing, and I'm very unforgiving of their deliberate and in your face way of harming innocent people from traffic blocking to participating in looting and destruction of property/vandalism... and sometimes worse violence.

So having said all that, there's one of two ways we can look at this: If Antifa is nothing more than an anonymous ideal, which is what most of the leftist narrative who support Antifa are telling us, then these people are definitely Antifa in spirit in the same way a Christian is Christian. However, if Antifa is more organized than that and has an actual hierarchy that isn't ALL anonymous, one could definitely make the case that there's no proof these people are tied to the group Antifa™ for sure.

Which do you think it is, Shiva?


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 03:55 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman] * 1
    #26899047 - 08/25/20 04:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)




Leftist cities, what does that even mean?  Most cities are pro-business and anti-worker. Those cities put money before people in almost all cases. What's leftist about it?  Black mayors and police chiefs that just take orders from their higher masters?




That's a good question as it is a generalization for sure. I guess another way of putting it is any large cities where city officials are tolerating or supporting this kind of rioting. They expect it to go away if they just let it ride itself out? No... that isn't going to work.

On one hand I hear people saying, "This is an honest expression/reaction people are having." and and I get that people's emotions need to be heard... but we have to help them realize that HOW you express something is CRITICAL in getting people to take you seriously. Feeling something and expressing it isn't wrong, in fact it's vital... but HOW you do it makes all the difference. Do you want allies or enemies? A war or actual peace?

So for those that are expressing themselves in a juvenile fashion, we have to treat them like juveniles. We can't *expect* everyone in adult bodies to know better just because they've spent 18-21 years on the planet. If they break shit, there needs to be consequences. If they steal shit, there needs to be consequences. They haven't even learned these most basic of lessons it seems... where are the parents?

If we want police reform, this isn't the way to do it. You don't bring in reform by acting like what you claim to hate. (The worst of law enforcement, which is all they ever focus on.)

I find the attitude around here toward police (not necessarily you Qman), to be borderline *religious* as most cops do a good job and are family men who love their community. You all seem to let a few rotten apples ruin the entire basket for you... and no one here seems to even acknowledge the good things the police do.

I'm all for a good protest... until you start breaking shit or blocking traffic. I don't believe in harming innocent people. I care not "how effective" it is. It's very effective to shut someone up by punching them in the face, too. It doesn't make it right.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 04:12 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899105 - 08/25/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What harms more innocent people than something like a civil war ?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899119 - 08/25/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.




Ok bro, so let's get into it... and here's my first thought: You confuse the fuck out of me because if anyone here IS Antifa, it's you.  I'm not a fucking fool







That's exactly what you are, if you think you can come on here and interrogate someone about their life.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26899175 - 08/25/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As Qman has stated a few times already then, why not go after those that are actually causing the harm?



I agree we should target cops and burn down any precinct where a cop who kills a citizen works.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26899185 - 08/25/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899195 - 08/25/20 05:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.




I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I just know what it looks like when one group becomes what they hate. The rioters are on the path to the Dark Side, it's really as simple as that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

If you want to burn something to the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




Who is going to fight this civil war? The left against who? The right says their guns are to fight a trytannical government, but they cheer on the actual tyranny we see everyday in America. I assume they will cower in their panic rooms if the left ever came after them.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26899207 - 08/25/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.




Ok bro, so let's get into it... and here's my first thought: You confuse the fuck out of me because if anyone here IS Antifa, it's you.  I'm not a fucking fool







That's exactly what you are, if you think you can come on here and interrogate someone about their life.




I'm not looking to falsely accuse, I'm looking to know the truth for more than one reason. Are you really going to fault me for that?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899213 - 08/25/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.




I've never said it is fully legitimate though I think Q as a person does have some inside intel. I could be wrong. I don't know for sure. I'm on the fence about it and always have been. I find it very, VERY interesting, however. And the people that follow Qanon for the most part are, however, good people. They're not making plans to harm innocent people.

Qanon may be total shit, but its followers are still good people and it's awakened millions to the deep state corruption and to the reality of human sex trafficking. Explain to me how any of that is a bad thing? :shrug:


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 06:02 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899215 - 08/25/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.




I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I just know what it looks like when one group becomes what they hate. The rioters are on the path to the Dark Side, it's really as simple as that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

If you want to burn something to the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




Who is going to fight this civil war? The left against who? The right says their guns are to fight a trytannical government, but they cheer on the actual tyranny we see everyday in America. I assume they will cower in their panic rooms if the left ever came after them.




The left against anyone that isn't far enough left. They ate Seattle's mayor despite her supporting the CHAZ/CHOP, and they ate Portland's mayor despite him being an ally.

They eat their own, it's funny to watch.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899261 - 08/25/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)




Leftist cities, what does that even mean?  Most cities are pro-business and anti-worker. Those cities put money before people in almost all cases. What's leftist about it?  Black mayors and police chiefs that just take orders from their higher masters?




That's a good question as it is a generalization for sure. I guess another way of putting it is any large cities where city officials are tolerating or supporting this kind of rioting. They expect it to go away if they just let it ride itself out? No... that isn't going to work.

On one hand I hear people saying, "This is an honest expression/reaction people are having." and and I get that people's emotions need to be heard... but we have to help them realize that HOW you express something is CRITICAL in getting people to take you seriously. Feeling something and expressing it isn't wrong, in fact it's vital... but HOW you do it makes all the difference. Do you want allies or enemies? A war or actual peace?

So for those that are expressing themselves in a juvenile fashion, we have to treat them like juveniles. We can't *expect* everyone in adult bodies to know better just because they've spent 18-21 years on the planet. If they break shit, there needs to be consequences. If they steal shit, there needs to be consequences. They haven't even learned these most basic of lessons it seems... where are the parents?

If we want police reform, this isn't the way to do it. You don't bring in reform by acting like what you claim to hate. (The worst of law enforcement, which is all they ever focus on.)

I find the attitude around here toward police (not necessarily you Qman), to be borderline *religious* as most cops do a good job and are family men who love their community. You all seem to let a few rotten apples ruin the entire basket for you... and no one here seems to even acknowledge the good things the police do.

I'm all for a good protest... until you start breaking shit or blocking traffic. I don't believe in harming innocent people. I care not "how effective" it is. It's very effective to shut someone up by punching them in the face, too. It doesn't make it right.




What would a Republican mayor do differently with the protesters?  What if they destroy property?  You seem to think there's some sort of conspiracy taking place in these cities. There's not much that can be done, that's the real issue at hand here. They police can only arrest breaking the law, not people they think could potentially might break a law.

As far as police/criminal justice reform goes, yes hitting the streets is the ONLY way to get real change. Our representatives don't care about us, so what other alternative is there? The 'war on drugs', unjust laws and illegal policing tactics isn't up for negotiation in a peaceful manner.

As far as the few bad apples argument goes, you're totally off base here. The vast majority of the cops do NOT know the law, they don't care about citizens constitutional rights, they have quotas to meet and they can't rat anyone out for violations. That means they're all bad to some extent. The Elite don't want cops following the laws, they don't want them protecting constitutional rights. They want attacking the working class and making them feel intimidate by the system, which most are today.

There is no voting in new policies or laws, it's not gonna happen. The power struggle is real and it doesn't involve working with the peasants. If we want change, it starts on hitting the streets and making The Elite think long and hard about the status quo.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26899344 - 08/25/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal.



So far we agree.

Quote:

christopera said:
Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.

It’s been proven time and time again that certain groups are either stripped of the stakeholder status or simply not included in the first place. What are we going to do about it? Some people are distraught because Starbucks was burnt down. Cry me a river.



I think the first thing we can do is stop misrepresenting Vahn's opinion.  I know exactly where he is coming from.  He thinks it's wrong for the protesters to damage businesses and hurt the owners, and you don't seem to care ("cry me a river").

I think we can have these differences of opinion without accusing the other of extreme positions.




I own a business, so of course I care. But I don't care enough to ignore the voice of the many in preference of the voice of the few. When your only source of agency is burning the fucker down, then the system has failed. You know that though. We all love to bash the establishment around here, sometimes talk isn't enough.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899550 - 08/25/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.




I've never said it is fully legitimate though I think Q as a person does have some inside intel. I could be wrong. I don't know for sure. I'm on the fence about it and always have been. I find it very, VERY interesting, however. And the people that follow Qanon for the most part are, however, good people. They're not making plans to harm innocent people.

Qanon may be total shit, but its followers are still good people and it's awakened millions to the deep state corruption and to the reality of human sex trafficking. Explain to me how any of that is a bad thing? :shrug:




Because it’s not based on reality. And Qanon supporters have done some seriously fucked up shit in the name of Qanon, including murder and terrorism. I don’t think falsely accusing people of being pedophiles makes anyone good people. Qanon supporters are fucking dangerous.

Qanon supporters have killed more people than antifa.


Edited by koods (08/25/20 09:45 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899609 - 08/25/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

LOL WUT?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26899631 - 08/25/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899636 - 08/25/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods] * 1
    #26899643 - 08/25/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Man who shot mob boss Francesco 'Franky Boy' Cali believed in QAnon, thought he had Trump's 'full support': Court docs Anthony Comello has been arrested for an

A man who, motivated by his belief in the wide-ranging conspiracy theory known as QAnon, blocked the bridge near the Hoover Dam with a homemade armored vehicle, has pleaded guilty to making a terrorist threat.

Qanon believer kills 9 Muslims in mass shooting

Armed Qanon suppprter crashes through Justin Trudeau’s front gate and has stand-off with police

A woman inspired by QAnon conspiracy videos was arrested after live-streaming her trip to 'take out' Joe Biden

A woman in Douglas County, Colorado, allegedly plotted a raid to kidnap her son from foster care with the help of QAnon.

The FBI Declared QAnon a Domestic Terrorism Threat — and Conspiracy Theorists Are Psyched An internal FBI memo classified QAnon and other conspiracy theories as a threat — and the move could make them stronger





#1: He went after a mob boss on his own? Damn, that's some serious balls. Go, guy! I'm all for it!

#2: No one was hurt. I'm annoyed he blocked traffic, but no one was hurt.

#3: There's not a SINGLE actual reference to Qanon in this one. The person keeps saying, "Qanon" like behavior. What... the fuck!? What kind of bullshit slander is this?

#4: This article literally says, "Attacks directly inspired by the QAnon ideology are still relatively rare." And I can't find a direct connection between Qanon and the attack.

#5: This woman seems literally insane. "I need help," she says to an officer standing outside her car. "I think I'm the coronavirus." Yeah ok, this has nothing to do with Qanon. This lady is just nuts.

#6: This story is basically a mother wanting to take her son back from foster care. It's a fucked up tale, but it has nothing to do with Qanon.

#7: Who fucking cares what the FBI thinks?


You haven't given me ONE example to back up your claim that Qanon conspirators kill people aside from one guy killing a mob boss, and if that's true I say go guy that's hella ballsy. The only actual other example out of all 7 of these that involves murder doesn't even have an actual link to Qanon. The author is smearing Qanon believers and bringing up Qanon for no reason whatsoever.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 10:57 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899656 - 08/25/20 11:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn’t expect any other response from a Qcumber

Funny how you support violence when it suits you. If you think it’s ok to shoot a mob boss because you think he deserves it, who’s next? Hillary? Some guy who owns a pizza parlor? You have no principles.

Seriously, how many times have you cheered on or justified extrajudicial murder, while decrying the violent left. Your ideology is absolute garbage.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (08/25/20 11:18 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899703 - 08/26/20 12:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Edit


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/26/20 12:07 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899707 - 08/26/20 12:10 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I wouldn’t expect any other response from a Qcumber

Funny how you support violence when it suits you. If you think it’s ok to shoot a mob boss because you think he deserves it, who’s next? Hillary? Some guy who owns a pizza parlor? You have no principles.

Seriously, how many times have you cheered on or justified extrajudicial murder, while decrying the violent left. Your ideology is absolute garbage.




Cheered on? Zero. What the serious fuck, dude?

Justified murder? Also arguably zero. Discussing the nuance of police work doesn't mean I'm happy when someone dies. Taking the case of George Floyd, I've stated multiple times that if it winds up being that the cop killed Floyd with his knee, the cop should be punished, but we don't know for sure.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899723 - 08/26/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cheered on? Zero. What the serious fuck, dude?





You’re straight up lying

Quote:

one guy killing a mob boss, and if that's true I say go guy that's hella ballsy.




--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (08/26/20 12:25 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899731 - 08/26/20 12:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe you’re just lacking in any self awareness. So which is it? Do you lack self awareness or are you just a liar, because you explicitly cheered on an extrajudicial murder then turned around and denied you would ever do that.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899962 - 08/26/20 06:02 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.




I've never said it is fully legitimate though I think Q as a person does have some inside intel. I could be wrong. I don't know for sure. I'm on the fence about it and always have been. I find it very, VERY interesting, however. And the people that follow Qanon for the most part are, however, good people. They're not making plans to harm innocent people.

Qanon may be total shit, but its followers are still good people and it's awakened millions to the deep state corruption and to the reality of human sex trafficking. Explain to me how any of that is a bad thing? :shrug:




I already told you that human sex trafficking was widely publicized by the media since the mid 19990's. There is literally nothing useful or sane about Qanon.


--------------------
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26900062 - 08/26/20 07:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/08/23/qanon-trump-cruelty-supporters/

This is one of my favorite Trump moments of late, when asked if he is saving the world from Satanic pedophiles he says he hadn't heard that, but that it sounds like a good thing. This part starts around 1:35, but the entire video is worth a watch. Trump basically outs Qanon for the bullshit it is simply by not really knowing that it exists. It ends with him talking about the border wall as well as he makes a massive transition from Qanon to Mexicans.


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Edited by christopera (08/26/20 07:55 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26900082 - 08/26/20 08:09 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

This is really disturbing. People describing how they’ve lost friends and family to Qanon. People changing practically over night, becoming obsessed with pedophila and Trump. It’s an online cult. 100%

My cousin who I haven’t talked to in years recently started contacting my sister and mother, saying hi at first and then immediately trying to educate them about Q. Its like invasion of the body snatchers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/QAnonCasualties/


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NotSheekle said
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26900348 - 08/26/20 11:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Cheered on? Zero. What the serious fuck, dude?





You’re straight up lying

Quote:

one guy killing a mob boss, and if that's true I say go guy that's hella ballsy.







Oh the mob boss? Ok, guilty as charged. I wouldn't call that, "murder" though, I'd call it cleaning shit up.

Any other example? You want me to feel bad a mob boss has his life threatened? I don't.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900399 - 08/26/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Thats the kind of self justification people use when assassinating people they disagree with


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods] * 2
    #26900413 - 08/26/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Thats the kind of self justification people use when assassinating people they disagree with




Meanwhile a noble pacifist such as yourself only wishes for the opposition to be thrown in a gulag.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900463 - 08/26/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Cheered on? Zero. What the serious fuck, dude?





You’re straight up lying

Quote:

one guy killing a mob boss, and if that's true I say go guy that's hella ballsy.







Oh the mob boss? Ok, guilty as charged. I wouldn't call that, "murder" though, I'd call it cleaning shit up.

Any other example? You want me to feel bad a mob boss has his life threatened? I don't.



Your feelings dont matter.

The US legal system doesnt operate by vigilante-ism. Criminals have rights,
even murderers and rapists. If you disagree then you are not a patriot.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26900528 - 08/26/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Thats the kind of self justification people use when assassinating people they disagree with




In what world do I have to subscribe to a morality where nobody deserves to die?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900530 - 08/26/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Your feelings dont matter.

The US legal system doesnt operate by vigilante-ism. Criminals have rights,
even murderers and rapists. If you disagree then you are not a patriot.




This is the anti-Batman argument.

I like Batman.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26900586 - 08/26/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Batman didnt kill his enemies dude. He specifically used a form of non lethal martial arts.

God you have 0 self awareness. It would be sad if it werent so amusing to see
you constantly paint yourself into a corner with your own beliefs :lol:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26900639 - 08/26/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Wait, because I like Batman I'm supposed to suck his dick and agree with all of his ways?

This is about his vigilantism. I think a little bit of that, if you're targeting actual corrupt individuals, doesn't fall outside of my morality. This isn't a debate. It's how I feel. And I don't see it the same way as Batman when it comes to sparing evil people. In fact, even despite saying that, I just finished watching, "The Dark Knight Returns" for the first time the other day, and a lot of it is Batman's remorse for not killing Joker years ago... and then he finally fuckin' kills him.

So I mean even though I don't even HAVE to agree with Batman (despite there being many takes of him), in the end Batman winds up killing Joker by snapping his neck anyway, (and takes responsibility for all the people Joker killed by not killing joker years ago), so your point is kinda moot all the same. :lol:

Dude, you really need to stop making up false arguments about your opposition. Just try using the truth instead, man.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/26/20 02:02 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26900934 - 08/26/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I have made 0 false arguments.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26901675 - 08/27/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I know we all want to think so, but I genuinely just tore your Batman argument completely apart, even though it shouldn't have applied to me in the first place. I don't have to see it someone else's way 100% to agree with a particular aspect of them.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/27/20 06:45 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26901688 - 08/27/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

Taking the case of George Floyd, I've stated multiple times that if it winds up being that the cop killed Floyd with his knee, the cop should be punished, but we don't know for sure.




Right. Considering the new info that the medical examiner said George Floyd’s lungs were two to three times normal weight during autopsy, indicating a lethal level of fentanyl was present, it is going to be a tough case to win. That George stated several times he couldn't breath before he was wrestled to the ground indicates he may have overdosed. He may have swallowed a dope bindle in his mouth - Court TV has a close up photo, and he clearly has something like a pill or a dope bindle in his mouth.

It's going to be a very difficult prosecution. Notice we are not hearing about this on the news. If George OD'd, many people were killed and businesses destroyed by a wrong assumption by the mob. People, if you fight with the cops, you might get hurt or shot. Why is that so hard for folks to understand?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26901709 - 08/27/20 07:21 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: yeah] * 1
    #26901718 - 08/27/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

They fucked his business up, but he went after the wrong targets. I have sympathy for him for losing his business but no sympathy for his getting assaulted because he was attacking random people in his rage with the fire extinguisher.

My principles about not going after the innocent are consistent. This guy responded the wrong way and harmed innocent protesters.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26901804 - 08/27/20 08:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I know we all want to think so, but I genuinely just tore your Batman argument completely apart, even though it shouldn't have applied to me in the first place. I don't have to see it someone else's way 100% to agree with a particular aspect of them.



No you didnt dude :lol:

You brought batman into the conversation, i showed you how even batman doesnt dole
out vigilante death sentences, and you tried desperately to cover your own dissonance showing.

You failed hard bro


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26901820 - 08/27/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

And Jesus Christ even if Batman was a perfect model for Vahn421's vigilantism - it's still a fucking cartoon. I've seen people make political extrapolations from The Sims, Batman, even fuckin' PacMan recently. It's mind-boggling.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26901825 - 08/27/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Actually the sims, batman, and fallout references were all from vahn:lol:

Dude needs to get off the computer and games and step outside


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #26901849 - 08/27/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:

Taking the case of George Floyd, I've stated multiple times that if it winds up being that the cop killed Floyd with his knee, the cop should be punished, but we don't know for sure.




Right. Considering the new info that the medical examiner said George Floyd’s lungs were two to three times normal weight during autopsy, indicating a lethal level of fentanyl was present, it is going to be a tough case to win. That George stated several times he couldn't breath before he was wrestled to the ground indicates he may have overdosed. He may have swallowed a dope bindle in his mouth - Court TV has a close up photo, and he clearly has something like a pill or a dope bindle in his mouth.

It's going to be a very difficult prosecution. Notice we are not hearing about this on the news. If George OD'd, many people were killed and businesses destroyed by a wrong assumption by the mob. People, if you fight with the cops, you might get hurt or shot. Why is that so hard for folks to understand?




Yet, the public and police officials are already in agreement that kneeling on someone's head/neck while in handcuffs is no longer an acceptable police tactic.

It's also going to be hard to prove that the kneeling at least didn't prove the main factor in his death. In other words, if the police didn't notice he was already have difficulty breathing because of the drugs they were negligent by not using caution. The police heard him state MANY different times he couldn't breath and they completely ignored it. It doesn't matter if drugs were the reason, they ignored his medical needs and he died as a result. That outcome is now on them as a result.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26901852 - 08/27/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Actually the sims, batman, and fallout references were all from vahn:lol:

Dude needs to get off the computer and games and step outside




It's shame all you draw from fiction is entertainment rather than some valuable life lessons.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 3
    #26901861 - 08/27/20 08:55 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Valuable life lessons from sims :lmafo:

Vahn thinks sim city was created by god for life to mirror, and not by man to mirror our current system.

Dude forms his political opinions from fallout and sims and wonders why his
ludicrous opinions are constantly attacked on this site.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26901876 - 08/27/20 09:00 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Fallout: New Vegas is one of the greatest games ever made and will provoke thoughts relating to the reality of the human condition more than almost any other game, move, or book in existence.

The only reference I ever made to Sim City was the idea that you put a PD station down in an area and the crime rate drops, because this concept seems to be very hard for a lot of people around here.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/27/20 09:01 AM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26901888 - 08/27/20 09:04 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Fallout: New Vegas is one of the greatest games ever made and will provoke thoughts relating to the reality of the human condition more than almost any other game, move, or book in existence.

The only reference I ever made to Sim City was the idea that you put a PD station down in an area and the crime rate drops, because this concept seems to be very hard for a lot of people around here.





Wow dude you're even further gone than I thought...

I've played new vegas and it is no where near the most thought provoking
piece of artistic expression "in existence."

I honestly cant believe you actually believe that. You must not read very much
cause that comment is just asinine dude.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26901913 - 08/27/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I said, "one of" not THE game. And I stand by it.

What's your standard for a thought provoking game, then? I'm waiting.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26901948 - 08/27/20 09:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It's shame all you draw from fiction is entertainment rather than some valuable life lessons.




Fiction is entertainment , valuable life lessons come from experiences .


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26901959 - 08/27/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

It's shame all you draw from fiction is entertainment rather than some valuable life lessons.




Fiction is entertainment , valuable life lessons come from experiences .




I'll call you a liar if you say you've never cried over, "fiction."

I'll call the rest of you liars as well.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26901964 - 08/27/20 09:38 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I cried one time as an adult when I had to shoot my dog .
  I’m not a woman so I will never cry over fiction .


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26901971 - 08/27/20 09:40 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
I cried one time as an adult when I had to shoot my dog .
  I’m not a woman so I will never cry over fiction .




Sounds like your own ego is in the way. Shame.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26901976 - 08/27/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like you need to stop telling people your ready for a civil war.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26901979 - 08/27/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Uh...... what?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26901995 - 08/27/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Oh my bad you were talking about other people being ready . Obviously you aren’t participating.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26902007 - 08/27/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I said, "one of" not THE game. And I stand by it.

What's your standard for a thought provoking game, then? I'm waiting.




We're not laughing at "one of" in relation to how good you think the game is. We're laughing at you for the "will provoke thoughts relating to the reality of the human condition more than almost any other game, movie or book in existence". I'll leave the younger people to argue about what game is best, but but comparing it to the most thought provoking movies or books is just a silly kid thing to say.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26902026 - 08/27/20 10:19 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If you've never played Fallout: New Vegas, you really can't speak about this.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26902186 - 08/27/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I've played it, I can speak of it, it's not even in the realm of "most thought provoking"

And as brian said, this has nothing to do with which game is better, it's this quote here thats the problem:

Quote:

will provoke thoughts relating to the reality of the human condition more than almost any other game, movie or book in existence




Opinion sure, but no joke that may be one of the saddest things I've read in this sub.
Basing your political alignments and world views on lessons you learned from vidya games :sad:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26902206 - 08/27/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

If you can't give me an alternative title that raises the bar, I'm going just say you're completely full of shit.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902224 - 08/27/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I think Mario Dream World is pretty under rated. It really makes me reflect on the life and existence.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26902239 - 08/27/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I know you're being sarcastic, but did you know the creator of Mario admitted they chose a "suspicious mushroom" as the symbol for Mario, "expanding" intentionally for reasons all of here would understand?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902248 - 08/27/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As a person who has grown and taken shrooms for 20 years the only thing I would say to that  is 
So what , who cares it’s a fucking game for kids .


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26902301 - 08/27/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So what , who cares




Me, and millions of others like me. :shrug:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902318 - 08/27/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
If you can't give me an alternative title that raises the bar, I'm going just say you're completely full of shit.



Completely full of shit?

Again dude. Fallout new vegas has never emotionally moved me to tears. Dozens of songs,
paintings, movies, and books HAVE done so. I'm not gonna sit here and get into
a title war with you.

Your statement, albeit opinion, is a woefully silly statement to make and
it makes me feel bad for you. Not trying to be insulting here dude. Genuinely it makes
me feel empathy for you.

Now, if you would like a recommendation for thought provoking titles, one I'd
recommend is Ishmael by daniel quinn. Thought provoking and a decent,
original argument about the nature of mankind


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26902355 - 08/27/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your statement, albeit opinion, is a woefully silly statement to make and
it makes me feel bad for you. Not trying to be insulting here dude. Genuinely it makes
me feel empathy for you.




Liar.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902363 - 08/27/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

That's fine dude.

Seriously my feeling aren't hurt at all by that.

I feel true empathy for lots of people in lots of situations. In this situation,
I feel it for you. Believe it or dont, no skin off my back or mushrooms out of my tubs :shrug:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26902367 - 08/27/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Feeling "empathy" for someone who is completely content in their tastes is egotistically condescending.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26902378 - 08/27/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

A homeless man may be content with his situation. Empathy can still be felt at the sight of him digging in trash.

Your worldview is molded by video games and youtube vids that have locked you in a chamber of fear.
I feel empathy for you even if you don't recognize the true tragedy spelled out in your posts.

Take it however you want


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26902389 - 08/27/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

My takeaway is that you're so completely wrong about me, I feel empathy for you. :lol:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26902416 - 08/27/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

However you want means however you want :shrug:

I'm not the one arguing in favor of police violation of constitutional rights
and condoning vigilante murder of people you disagree with.

Your worldview is obviously drenched in fear mongering and a propensity for authoritarianism. I find that sad.

I, on the other hand, spend my time fishing, growing mushrooms, hiking, shooting bows and guns,
owning a small business, and I've even taken time to actually go to one
of the protests so I could watch history with my own eyes and not catch a
bastardised youtube clip of it to base my world view on.

Feel empathy for me if you want I suppose.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26902428 - 08/27/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Your worldview is obviously drenched in fear mongering and a propensity for authoritarianism.




But it's not. :lol:


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902438 - 08/27/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As long as we're getting into personal life, let me share a little with you.

Most know I'm an ex-Mormon. I grew to despise the authority of religion so much I became a huge anti-religion advocate for 10+ years.

What I see now is a new authoritarian threat emerging on the political left whether they realize it or not. It's not that I stopped hating religion, it's that I found something to hate even more.

Give it time, it will become clear who the emerging authoritarians are, and they aren't on the political right.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902451 - 08/27/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

The left is such an authoritarian threat, it must be crushed with overwhelming force. Just comply with the police and it will go much easier. Trump 2040.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26902457 - 08/27/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

the public is on the defense against the rioters, not the other way around.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26902477 - 08/27/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You know what’s easier than controlling the behavior of an angry mob? Controlling the behavior of the public servants whose salaries you pay. Stop police violence and the violence that occurs in response to it will stop. The police are an existential and tangible threat to the stability of our democracy. That is how bad it has gotten. The people are tired of being abused by these tyrants. When the legislative routes fail and the judicial routes fail, you get riots.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26902540 - 08/27/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
As long as we're getting into personal life, let me share a little with you.

Most know I'm an ex-Mormon. I grew to despise the authority of religion so much I became a huge anti-religion advocate for 10+ years.

What I see now is a new authoritarian threat emerging on the political left whether they realize it or not. It's not that I stopped hating religion, it's that I found something to hate even more.

Give it time, it will become clear who the emerging authoritarians are, and they aren't on the political right.



So tired of you bringing up mormonism as if it makes you an authority.

My fiancee is an ex mormon, left when she was 18 and we deal with the backlash
of it on a constant basis.

I myself grew up in an actual cult called The Way International. Leaving and
not believing in cult tactics doesnt make you an authority figure on what constitutes authoritarianism.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 3
    #26902632 - 08/27/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
What I see now is a new authoritarian threat emerging on the political left whether they realize it or not. It's not that I stopped hating religion, it's that I found something to hate even more.

Give it time, it will become clear who the emerging authoritarians are, and they aren't on the political right.



You're telling us that eventually it will become clear that the "political left" is an emerging "authoritarian threat" - but you're so wrapped up in your cognitive bias that you can't see the already existing authoritarian threat. You should read this timely report literally released today:
Hidden in Plain Sight: Racism, White Supremacy, and Far-Right Militancy in Law Enforcement

Some choice snippets:

Quote:

In 2017, the FBI reported that white supremacists posed a “persistent threat of lethal violence” that has produced more fatalities than any other category of domestic terrorists since 2000. Alarmingly, internal FBI policy documents have also warned agents assigned to domestic terrorism cases that the white supremacist and anti-government militia groups they investigate often have “active links” to law enforcement officials.

[...]

Yet despite the FBI’s acknowledgement of the links between law enforcement and these suspected terrorist groups, the Justice Department has no national strategy designed to identify white supremacist police officers or to protect the safety and civil rights of the communities they patrol.




Quote:

Since 2000, law enforcement officials with alleged connections to white supremacist groups or far-right militant activities have been exposed in Alabama, California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oregon, Texas, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and elsewhere. Research organizations have uncovered hundreds of federal, state, and local law enforcement officials participating in racist, nativist, and sexist social media activity, which demonstrates that overt bias is far too common. These officers’ racist activities are often known within their departments, but only result in disciplinary action or termination if they trigger public scandals.




Quote:

The FBI’s 2015 Counterterrorism Policy Directive and Policy Guide warns that “domestic terrorism investigations focused on militia extremists, white supremacist extremists, and sovereign citizen extremists often have identified active links to law enforcement officers.” This alarming declaration followed a 2006 intelligence assessment, based on FBI investigations and open sources, that warned of “white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement . . . by organized groups and by self-initiated infiltration by law enforcement personnel sympathetic to white supremacist causes." Active links between law enforcement officials and the subjects of any terrorism investigation should raise alarms within our national security establishment, but the federal government has not responded accordingly.




Quote:

The FBI and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) have identified white supremacists as the most lethal domestic terrorist threat to the United States. In recent years, white supremacists have executed deadly rampages in Charleston, South Carolina, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and El Paso, Texas. Narrowly thwarted attempts by neo-Nazis to manufacture radiological “dirty” bombs in Maine in 2009 and Florida in 2017 show their dangerous capability and intent to unleash mass destruction. These groups also pose a lethal threat to law enforcement, as evidenced by recent attacks against Federal Protective Service officers and sheriff’s deputies in California by far-right militants intent on starting the “Boogaloo” — a euphemism for a new civil war — which killed two and injured several other.




Quote:

In 1964, civil rights workers James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, and Michael Schwerner went missing in Mississippi during the Freedom Summer voter registration drive, shortly after being released from a Philadelphia, Mississippi, jail where they had been taken to pay a speeding fine. President Lyndon Johnson ordered FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to send FBI agents to find them. Searchers found the bodies of eight black men, including two college students who were working on the voter registration drive, before an informant’s tip finally led the agents to an earthen dam where Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner were buried. After local law enforcement refused to investigate the murders, the Justice Department charged 19 Ku Klux Klansmen with conspiring to violate Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner’s civil rights. Two current and two former law enforcement officials were among those charged. An all-white jury convicted seven of the Klansman but only one of the law enforcement officers.




Quote:

In the 1980s, the investigation of a KKK firebombing of a Black family’s home in Kentucky exposed a Jefferson County police officer as a Klan leader. In a deposition, the officer admitted that he directed a 40-member Klan subgroup called the Confederate Officers Patriot Squad (COPS), half of whom were police officers. He added that his involvement in the KKK was known to his police department and tolerated so long as he didn’t publicize it.




Quote:

In the 1990s, Lynwood, California, residents filed a class action civil rights lawsuit alleging that a gang of racist Los Angeles County sheriff’s deputies known as the Lynwood Vikings perpetrated “systematic acts of shooting, killing, brutality, terrorism, house-trashing and other acts of lawlessness and wanton abuse of power."A federal judge overseeing the case labeled the Vikings “a neo-Nazi, white supremacist gang” within the sheriff’s department that engaged in racially motivated violence and intimidation against the Black and Latino communities.




Quote:

In 2019, Los Angeles County paid $7 million to settle a wrongful death lawsuit against two sheriff’s deputies for shooting an unarmed Black man after testimony revealed that they were part of a group of deputies with matching tattoos in the tradition of earlier deputy gangs. A pending lawsuit accuses the same two officers of beating an unarmed Black man while yelling racial epithets. A Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors investigation revealed that almost 60 lawsuits against alleged members of deputy gangs have cost the county about $55 million, which includes $21 million in cases over the last 10 years. These deputy gangs pose a threat to their fellow law enforcement officers as well, according to two recently filed lawsuits. In one, a deputy alleges he had been bullied by deputy gang members for five years, and finally viciously beaten by the gang’s enforcer. In another, a deputy who witnessed the attack alleged he suffered threats and retaliation from deputy gang members after reporting it to an internal affairs tip line. In 2019, the FBI reportedly initiated a civil rights investigation regarding gang activity at the sheriff’s department.




Quote:

In 2009 [Anniston, Alabama, city officials learned] of a police officer’s membership in the League of the South, a white supremacist secessionist group. The police chief, however, determined that the officer’s membership in the group did not affect his performance and allowed him to remain on the job. In the following years the officer was promoted to sergeant and eventually lieutenant. It wasn’t until 2015, after the Southern Poverty Law Center published an article about a speech he had given at a League of the South conference in which he discussed his recruiting efforts among other law enforcement officers, that the police department fired him. A second Anniston police lieutenant found to have attended the same League of the South rally was permitted to retire.




Quote:

In 2017, the police chief in Colbert, Oklahoma, resigned after local media reported his decades-long involvement with neo-Nazi skinhead groups and his ownership of neo-Nazi websites. A neighboring Oklahoma police department hired him the following year, claiming he had renounced his previous racist activities and held a clean record as a police officer.




Quote:

In 2018, the Greensboro, Maryland, police chief was charged with falsifying records to hire a police officer who had previously been forced to resign from the Dover, Delaware, police department after he kicked a Black man in the face and broke his jaw. The same officer was later involved in the death of an unarmed Black teenager, which sparked an investigation that revealed 29 use of force reports at his previous job, including some that found he used unnecessary force. The previous incidents were never reported to the Maryland police certification board.




Quote:

Sessions also killed a program operated by the DOJ Office of Community Oriented Policing Services that evaluated police department practices and offered corrective recommendations in a more collaborative way that avoided litigation. Attorney General William Barr has indicated similar disdain for law enforcement oversight, once threatening that communities that do not give support and respect to law enforcement “might find themselves without the police protection they need.”




Quote:

The police response to nationwide protests that followed the murder of George Floyd in May 2020 includes a number of officers across the country flaunting their affiliation with far-right militant groups. A veteran sheriff’s deputy monitoring a Black Lives Matter protest in Orange County, California, was photographed wearing patches with logos of the Three Percenters and the Oath Keepers — far-right militant groups that often challenge the federal government’s authority — affixed to his bulletproof vest. After an activist group publicized the photograph, the sheriff said it was “unacceptable” for the deputy to wear the patches and placed him on administrative leave pending an investigation.

A 13-year veteran of the Chicago Police Department is under investigation after photographs surfaced that showed him wearing a face covering with a Three Percenters’ logo while on duty at a protest, though a supervisor was pictured with him at the scene and apparently did not complain. The officer had reportedly been the subject of several previous misconduct lawsuits, including an excessive use of force suit following a nonfatal shooting. The city of Chicago paid $400,000 to settle those suits.

In Salem, Oregon, a police officer was recorded on video asking heavily armed white men dressed like militia to step inside a building or sit in their cars while the police arrested protesters for failing to comply with curfew orders, “so we don’t look like we’re playing favorites.” After a public outcry, the Salem police chief apologized for the appearance of favoritism, but determined the officer was only trying to gain the militants’ compliance with the curfew.

A police officer in Olympia, Washington, was placed under investigation for posing in a photograph with a heavily armed militia group called Three Percent of Washington. One of the militia members posted the photograph on social media, claiming that the officer and her partner had come over to thank them as they guarded a local shopping center.

In Philadelphia, police officers stood by and failed to intervene when mostly white mobs armed with bats, clubs, and long guns attacked journalists and protesters. The district attorney has vowed to investigate the matter. The following month, however, Philadelphia police officers openly socialized with several men wearing Proud Boys regalia and carrying a Proud Boys flag at a “Back the Blue” party at the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge.

The affinity some police officers have shown for armed far-right militia groups at protests is confounding given that many states, including California, Illinois, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Washington, have laws barring unregulated paramilitary activities. And it is most troubling because far-right militants have often killed police officers. The overlap between militia members and the Boogaloo movement — whose adherents have been arrested for manufacturing Molotov cocktails in preparation for an attack at a Black Lives Matter protest in Nevada, inciting a riot in South Carolina, and shooting, bombing, and killing police officers in California — highlights the threat that police engagement with these groups poses to their law enforcement partners.




Quote:

The failure of federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies to aggressively respond to evidence of explicit racism among police officers undermines public confidence in fair and impartial law enforcement. Worse, it signals to white supremacists and far-right militants that their illegal acts enjoy government approval and authorization, making them all the more brazen and dangerous. Winning back public trust requires transparent and equal enforcement of the law, effective oversight, and public accountability that prioritizes targeted communities’ interests.




Quote:

The most effective way for law enforcement agencies to restore public trust and prevent racism from influencing law enforcement actions is to prohibit individuals who are members of white supremacist groups or who have a history of explicitly racist conduct from becoming law enforcement officers in the first place, or from remaining officers once bias is demonstrated.




Quote:

The Justice Department has acknowledged that law enforcement involvement in white supremacist and far-right militia organizations poses an ongoing threat, but it has not produced a national strategy to address it. Not only has the department failed to prosecute police officers involved in patently racist violence, it has only recently begun collecting national data regarding use of force by law enforcement officials.








^^^^^ That's what actual evidence of organized domestic terrorism looks like - not the bullshit about Antifa™ you come in here with


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Offline1uptoadstool
procrastinator
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 324
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26936278 - 09/15/20 02:05 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)






That’s an awfully threatening statement for someone who claims the desire for civil war is bullshit .




It's not threatening, the left is going to eat itself. The right won't even have to do anything.




the right doesn't want to the baited by the media. the second they retaliate on camera CNN with label the whole thing as a far right nazi prctest reguardless of how many Blm moltavs were thrown before one patriot put a .308 round in their head


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Offlinekoods
Ribbit
Male User Gallery


Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 4 hours, 6 minutes
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: 1uptoadstool]
    #26936329 - 09/15/20 03:45 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

You guys talk about killing people A LOT


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat
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Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26936767 - 09/15/20 10:27 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I swear this molotov bulllshit gets real old. All you have to do is watch the vid
to know there was no molotov. Fucking asinine


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Offlinemeltdowner
Total Noob
Male


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 1,457
Loc: New York City
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26938072 - 09/15/20 09:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
The left is such an authoritarian threat, it must be crushed with overwhelming force. Just comply with the police and it will go much easier. Trump 2040.



Now you're speaking my language! (American)


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Offlinemeltdowner
Total Noob
Male


Registered: 09/06/17
Posts: 1,457
Loc: New York City
Last seen: 6 months, 30 days
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26938075 - 09/15/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
I swear this molotov bulllshit gets real old. All you have to do is watch the vid
to know there was no molotov. Fucking asinine



Firebomb has a nicer ring to it, I agree.


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I'm a Lightweight.  I like to eat like two caps at a time.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
Mycologist
 User Gallery


Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26940014 - 09/17/20 01:32 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
The only reference I ever made to Sim City was the idea that you put a PD station down in an area and the crime rate drops, because this concept seems to be very hard for a lot of people around here.



I find it incredibly ironic that you made this comment on a message board devoted to the discussion of psilocybin mushrooms, which is a schedule I substance. It is incredibly unjust that possession of psilocybin mushrooms can result in felony charges, and the police force you're advocating for is the organization which enforces that injustice by use of violent force (or, at least, the threat of it). Look at the fucking website you're posting on, dude. The cognitive dissonance is so strong I can't even imagine what it feels like in your head.


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Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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