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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898898 - 08/25/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
If deception on the part of PV or myself isn't enough to discount the content, then let's return to the content.

I've already provided my opinion of it: It's video of self-defence classes interspersed with the "infiltrator" (ie, signed up for the gym class) narrating a completely different story about terrorism - ominous background music - and a slideshow of unrelated riots at the very end.

What have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening.

I assume it's to do with the existence of a domestic terror organization named "Antifa" but perhaps you could start by restating the claim supported by the video.




I believe I originally shared the video to prove that organized factions of Antifa actually exist, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, we've discussed so much I can't recall now. (I found the video through someone else re-posting it.)

I don't recall ever personally arguing that this video is proof of how I feel about Antifa and their actions on the street (there are better ways to make that case)and I also find the music to be eye-rolling.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 02:28 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26898905 - 08/25/20 02:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)






That’s an awfully threatening statement for someone who claims the desire for civil war is bullshit .




It's not threatening, the left is going to eat itself. The right won't even have to do anything.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898939 - 08/25/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)




Leftist cities, what does that even mean?  Most cities are pro-business and anti-worker. Those cities put money before people in almost all cases. What's leftist about it?  Black mayors and police chiefs that just take orders from their higher masters?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898952 - 08/25/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It's video of self-defence classes interspersed with the "infiltrator" (ie, signed up for the gym class) narrating a completely different story about terrorism - ominous background music - and a slideshow of unrelated riots at the very end.

What have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening.

I assume it's to do with the existence of a domestic terror organization named "Antifa" but perhaps you could start by restating the claim supported by the video.




I believe I originally shared the video to prove that organized factions of Antifa actually exist, but you can correct me if I'm wrong, we've discussed so much I can't recall now. (I found the video through someone else re-posting it.)

I don't recall ever personally arguing that this video is proof of how I feel about Antifa and their actions on the street (there are better ways to make that case)and I also find the music to be eye-rolling.



That would appear to be correct, but the video evidence alone doesn't establish this.

In the video, the organization is "The Base" - not "Antifa". Their website self-describes as an "anarchist political center" but there is no mention of Antifa or even antifascist - all signs point to it being an anarchist infoshop that offers self-defence classes. Infoshops are not murky phenomena - I'm sure there's one nearby where you would be welcome to visit.

The only thing that connects The Base to an organization named "Antifa" is the video title and the anonymous narration of the infiltrator. Further claims like "They were definitely learning tactics that were not in for defence. It was definitely for offence. On the front, on their website they would say that these were defensive classes but all the tactics they used were offensive." are also completely unsupported by anything in the video.

Edit: Furthermore, practices like ominous music and the unrelated slideshow of riots suggest an attempt to dishonestly influence the viewers perception of the video.

Why should we believe the claims of the narrator?


Edited by shivas.wisdom (08/25/20 03:12 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26899024 - 08/25/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I will concede upon finding the website for, The Base, that there is no concrete admission of them being linked to Antifa™. They have of course the anarchist symbol in their window which many people can confuse with a symbol of Antifa, especially because of the, "A." They also seem to share all the same ideals that Antifa shares, at least on the general level.

And to be truthful, it is not Antifa as a group that bothers me per ce, and one could argue in many instances it is not even their ideals, it is simply their means to the end. I think in most cases they are accomplishing the opposite of what they think they are accomplishing, and I'm very unforgiving of their deliberate and in your face way of harming innocent people from traffic blocking to participating in looting and destruction of property/vandalism... and sometimes worse violence.

So having said all that, there's one of two ways we can look at this: If Antifa is nothing more than an anonymous ideal, which is what most of the leftist narrative who support Antifa are telling us, then these people are definitely Antifa in spirit in the same way a Christian is Christian. However, if Antifa is more organized than that and has an actual hierarchy that isn't ALL anonymous, one could definitely make the case that there's no proof these people are tied to the group Antifa™ for sure.

Which do you think it is, Shiva?


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 03:55 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman] * 1
    #26899047 - 08/25/20 04:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)




Leftist cities, what does that even mean?  Most cities are pro-business and anti-worker. Those cities put money before people in almost all cases. What's leftist about it?  Black mayors and police chiefs that just take orders from their higher masters?




That's a good question as it is a generalization for sure. I guess another way of putting it is any large cities where city officials are tolerating or supporting this kind of rioting. They expect it to go away if they just let it ride itself out? No... that isn't going to work.

On one hand I hear people saying, "This is an honest expression/reaction people are having." and and I get that people's emotions need to be heard... but we have to help them realize that HOW you express something is CRITICAL in getting people to take you seriously. Feeling something and expressing it isn't wrong, in fact it's vital... but HOW you do it makes all the difference. Do you want allies or enemies? A war or actual peace?

So for those that are expressing themselves in a juvenile fashion, we have to treat them like juveniles. We can't *expect* everyone in adult bodies to know better just because they've spent 18-21 years on the planet. If they break shit, there needs to be consequences. If they steal shit, there needs to be consequences. They haven't even learned these most basic of lessons it seems... where are the parents?

If we want police reform, this isn't the way to do it. You don't bring in reform by acting like what you claim to hate. (The worst of law enforcement, which is all they ever focus on.)

I find the attitude around here toward police (not necessarily you Qman), to be borderline *religious* as most cops do a good job and are family men who love their community. You all seem to let a few rotten apples ruin the entire basket for you... and no one here seems to even acknowledge the good things the police do.

I'm all for a good protest... until you start breaking shit or blocking traffic. I don't believe in harming innocent people. I care not "how effective" it is. It's very effective to shut someone up by punching them in the face, too. It doesn't make it right.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 04:12 PM)


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899105 - 08/25/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What harms more innocent people than something like a civil war ?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899119 - 08/25/20 04:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.




Ok bro, so let's get into it... and here's my first thought: You confuse the fuck out of me because if anyone here IS Antifa, it's you.  I'm not a fucking fool







That's exactly what you are, if you think you can come on here and interrogate someone about their life.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26899175 - 08/25/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

As Qman has stated a few times already then, why not go after those that are actually causing the harm?



I agree we should target cops and burn down any precinct where a cop who kills a citizen works.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
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Offlinekoods
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26899185 - 08/25/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899195 - 08/25/20 05:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.




I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I just know what it looks like when one group becomes what they hate. The rioters are on the path to the Dark Side, it's really as simple as that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

If you want to burn something to the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




Who is going to fight this civil war? The left against who? The right says their guns are to fight a trytannical government, but they cheer on the actual tyranny we see everyday in America. I assume they will cower in their panic rooms if the left ever came after them.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26899207 - 08/25/20 05:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.




Ok bro, so let's get into it... and here's my first thought: You confuse the fuck out of me because if anyone here IS Antifa, it's you.  I'm not a fucking fool







That's exactly what you are, if you think you can come on here and interrogate someone about their life.




I'm not looking to falsely accuse, I'm looking to know the truth for more than one reason. Are you really going to fault me for that?


--------------------


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899213 - 08/25/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.




I've never said it is fully legitimate though I think Q as a person does have some inside intel. I could be wrong. I don't know for sure. I'm on the fence about it and always have been. I find it very, VERY interesting, however. And the people that follow Qanon for the most part are, however, good people. They're not making plans to harm innocent people.

Qanon may be total shit, but its followers are still good people and it's awakened millions to the deep state corruption and to the reality of human sex trafficking. Explain to me how any of that is a bad thing? :shrug:


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 06:02 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899215 - 08/25/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.




I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I just know what it looks like when one group becomes what they hate. The rioters are on the path to the Dark Side, it's really as simple as that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

If you want to burn something to the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




Who is going to fight this civil war? The left against who? The right says their guns are to fight a trytannical government, but they cheer on the actual tyranny we see everyday in America. I assume they will cower in their panic rooms if the left ever came after them.




The left against anyone that isn't far enough left. They ate Seattle's mayor despite her supporting the CHAZ/CHOP, and they ate Portland's mayor despite him being an ally.

They eat their own, it's funny to watch.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899261 - 08/25/20 06:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)




Leftist cities, what does that even mean?  Most cities are pro-business and anti-worker. Those cities put money before people in almost all cases. What's leftist about it?  Black mayors and police chiefs that just take orders from their higher masters?




That's a good question as it is a generalization for sure. I guess another way of putting it is any large cities where city officials are tolerating or supporting this kind of rioting. They expect it to go away if they just let it ride itself out? No... that isn't going to work.

On one hand I hear people saying, "This is an honest expression/reaction people are having." and and I get that people's emotions need to be heard... but we have to help them realize that HOW you express something is CRITICAL in getting people to take you seriously. Feeling something and expressing it isn't wrong, in fact it's vital... but HOW you do it makes all the difference. Do you want allies or enemies? A war or actual peace?

So for those that are expressing themselves in a juvenile fashion, we have to treat them like juveniles. We can't *expect* everyone in adult bodies to know better just because they've spent 18-21 years on the planet. If they break shit, there needs to be consequences. If they steal shit, there needs to be consequences. They haven't even learned these most basic of lessons it seems... where are the parents?

If we want police reform, this isn't the way to do it. You don't bring in reform by acting like what you claim to hate. (The worst of law enforcement, which is all they ever focus on.)

I find the attitude around here toward police (not necessarily you Qman), to be borderline *religious* as most cops do a good job and are family men who love their community. You all seem to let a few rotten apples ruin the entire basket for you... and no one here seems to even acknowledge the good things the police do.

I'm all for a good protest... until you start breaking shit or blocking traffic. I don't believe in harming innocent people. I care not "how effective" it is. It's very effective to shut someone up by punching them in the face, too. It doesn't make it right.




What would a Republican mayor do differently with the protesters?  What if they destroy property?  You seem to think there's some sort of conspiracy taking place in these cities. There's not much that can be done, that's the real issue at hand here. They police can only arrest breaking the law, not people they think could potentially might break a law.

As far as police/criminal justice reform goes, yes hitting the streets is the ONLY way to get real change. Our representatives don't care about us, so what other alternative is there? The 'war on drugs', unjust laws and illegal policing tactics isn't up for negotiation in a peaceful manner.

As far as the few bad apples argument goes, you're totally off base here. The vast majority of the cops do NOT know the law, they don't care about citizens constitutional rights, they have quotas to meet and they can't rat anyone out for violations. That means they're all bad to some extent. The Elite don't want cops following the laws, they don't want them protecting constitutional rights. They want attacking the working class and making them feel intimidate by the system, which most are today.

There is no voting in new policies or laws, it's not gonna happen. The power struggle is real and it doesn't involve working with the peasants. If we want change, it starts on hitting the streets and making The Elite think long and hard about the status quo.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26899344 - 08/25/20 07:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal.



So far we agree.

Quote:

christopera said:
Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.

It’s been proven time and time again that certain groups are either stripped of the stakeholder status or simply not included in the first place. What are we going to do about it? Some people are distraught because Starbucks was burnt down. Cry me a river.



I think the first thing we can do is stop misrepresenting Vahn's opinion.  I know exactly where he is coming from.  He thinks it's wrong for the protesters to damage businesses and hurt the owners, and you don't seem to care ("cry me a river").

I think we can have these differences of opinion without accusing the other of extreme positions.




I own a business, so of course I care. But I don't care enough to ignore the voice of the many in preference of the voice of the few. When your only source of agency is burning the fucker down, then the system has failed. You know that though. We all love to bash the establishment around here, sometimes talk isn't enough.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

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Offlinekoods
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26899550 - 08/25/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.




Dude you think Qanon is a legitimate movement. It’s really quite hard to trust your judgement on anything.




I've never said it is fully legitimate though I think Q as a person does have some inside intel. I could be wrong. I don't know for sure. I'm on the fence about it and always have been. I find it very, VERY interesting, however. And the people that follow Qanon for the most part are, however, good people. They're not making plans to harm innocent people.

Qanon may be total shit, but its followers are still good people and it's awakened millions to the deep state corruption and to the reality of human sex trafficking. Explain to me how any of that is a bad thing? :shrug:




Because it’s not based on reality. And Qanon supporters have done some seriously fucked up shit in the name of Qanon, including murder and terrorism. I don’t think falsely accusing people of being pedophiles makes anyone good people. Qanon supporters are fucking dangerous.

Qanon supporters have killed more people than antifa.


Edited by koods (08/25/20 09:45 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899609 - 08/25/20 10:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

LOL WUT?


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26899631 - 08/25/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)



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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: koods]
    #26899636 - 08/25/20 10:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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