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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898622 - 08/25/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)



The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy.



You missed the main point - "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."  That's exactly what the protesters are saying about the harm they are now doing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898630 - 08/25/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.



It's still not wrong to claim " cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.."


This statement, on the other hand, is certainly make believe and I'm surprised it got past you: "Both this guy and George Floyd would be alive if they just complied." source



I didn't miss that.  I'm saying the guy's odds of getting shot went from about one in a million to about one in a thousand when he didn't comply (of course, I don't know the exact odds; my point is that the odds of him getting shot went WAY up).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898633 - 08/25/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.




Ok bro, so let's get into it... and here's my first thought: You confuse the fuck out of me because if anyone here IS Antifa, it's you. I'm like 90% convinced you're a member of Antifa and you're likely apart of a faction, which means, you'd KNOW that this group below is also a part of Antifa. (You've never denied it.) And you'd know that the rioters who break shit up and burn shit are also often, Antifa.

Are you or are you not apart of Antifa? Are you sworn to secrecy even on an anonymous account? All I can think of when I see you is, "Antifa." So this is your chance to correct the record, because until you DO, I'm going to continue to associate you as being affiliated with them, and anyone that wasn't would not really have a problem setting the record straight.

It's like you're apart of something and you're allowing everyone else to entertain a false idea about Antifa because you think the ends justify the means. I wouldn't put this past you given how you have a habit of plagiarizing as well. In your mind, you have justified deception for what you consider to be the greater good, and I find deception of that kind to be abhorrent, so we ideologically clash, honestly.

I KNOW how Antifa organizes because my exes brother is/was Antifa, Shiva. I may not get all the details right, but I know they are more organized than they say on the surface. I'm not a fucking fool and I've had an insider's peek.

After you speak your mind on all that, we can talk about the video below. Here it is just to refresh people's memory. I believe my commentary on it and reason for posting it had to do with it being evidence of them being "organized" in groups. Again, I find your mockery of the point, given that you probably ARE with Antifa, to be maliciously deceptive. Now is your chance to completely deny association with Antifa, or my point stands.




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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898646 - 08/25/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.




I'm not a fuckin' fascist. I just know what it looks like when one group becomes what they hate. The rioters are on the path to the Dark Side, it's really as simple as that. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

If you want to burn something to the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26898648 - 08/25/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal.



So far we agree.

Quote:

christopera said:
Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.

It’s been proven time and time again that certain groups are either stripped of the stakeholder status or simply not included in the first place. What are we going to do about it? Some people are distraught because Starbucks was burnt down. Cry me a river.



I think the first thing we can do is stop misrepresenting Vahn's opinion.  I know exactly where he is coming from.  He thinks it's wrong for the protesters to damage businesses and hurt the owners, and you don't seem to care ("cry me a river").

I think we can have these differences of opinion without accusing the other of extreme positions.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898652 - 08/25/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy.



You missed the main point - "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."  That's exactly what the protesters are saying about the harm they are now doing.




Those you's appear to conflate police and business owners as one group. I only hit [business owner] because [police] make me angry. It's [police] fault. Vahn421's analogy fails.

On the other hand, the only evidence I've seen in defence of Vahn421's claim literally includes blaming a police murder on the riots. Although Vahn421 has stated that they don't necessarily endorse Billy Ray's defence of Vahn421's claim so I'm still open for them to provide alternative evidence.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898657 - 08/25/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.



It's still not wrong to claim " cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.."


This statement, on the other hand, is certainly make believe and I'm surprised it got past you: "Both this guy and George Floyd would be alive if they just complied." source



I didn't miss that.  I'm saying the guy's odds of getting shot went from about one in a million to about one in a thousand when he didn't comply (of course, I don't know the exact odds; my point is that the odds of him getting shot went WAY up).



Okay but Vahn421 didn't say that. So, to be clear, instead of criticizing Vahn421 for a claim that we both agree to be make believe, you criticised me for making a claim that wasn't make believe. Okay.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898663 - 08/25/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy.



You missed the main point - "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."  That's exactly what the protesters are saying about the harm they are now doing.




Those you's appear to conflate police and business owners as one group. I only hit [business owner] because [police] make me angry. It's [police] fault. Vahn421's analogy fails.



Ok, it wasn't a perfect analogy; I'll give you a gold star.  But Vahn's point was still pretty clear as I explained above.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898669 - 08/25/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Okay but Vahn421 didn't say that. So, to be clear, instead of criticizing Vahn421 for a claim that we both agree to be make believe, you criticised me for making a claim that wasn't make believe. Okay.



Again, I understood Vahn's intent, but you can have another gold star.  Clarity is good.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898674 - 08/25/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time .
  They were threatening it not too long ago during Trumps impeachment .
  I feel like it’s a coping mechanism at this point .
 
How would that even happen considering there are no lines drawn over territory ?
  Are conservatives just going to start shooting every black person they see ?
That’s what I think would happen .


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898688 - 08/25/20 12:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's the thing about rioting... it's not just one thing that it brings with it. Some people go into an emotional frenzy and just follow the mob, some people us the crowd as cover to do bad things, and then some people like Antifa all dress in black and intentionally use it to create anonymous cover for themselves and others in order to intentionally and deliberately break the law in groups. It's all one formula, so when An 8 year old girl is shot near the area people had been protesting for days, we blame the presence of the riots.

It's the same for many similar cases. People in the protests aren't arming themselves with guns to go shoot people, obviously, but the undisciplined energy unleashed on the streets brings with it child-like and adolescent reactions, not mature, wise, adult-like actions.

Breaking shit when you're angry is not mature and wise, it is adolescent.

Blocking traffic is not mature and wise, it's adolescent.

Adolescent energy brings with it similar consequences. It spreads around, harming the innocent in its wake.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898696 - 08/25/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
After you speak your mind on all that, we can talk about the video below.



Oh, more pointless hoops I need to jump through before you'll deign to provide us with an answer. Once again, instead of answering a question in good faith, you have written an essay about my personal character. "If anyone here IS Antifa, it's you." - well then maybe listen to me when I tell you that everything you believe about Antifa™ is fucking stupid and absolutely wrong.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.




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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26898697 - 08/25/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

the ground, stop targeting fucking innocent people. This is not rocket science. They're going to start a god damned fucking civil war if they don't stop.




That’s something hardcore conservatives have been fantasizing about , threatening  and welcoming for a long time




This is a bullshit leftist narrative told in echo chambers among themselves in order to convince themselves that the political right are gunning for a war which is so fucking unequivocally false it's laughable.

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898714 - 08/25/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
After you speak your mind on all that, we can talk about the video below.



Oh, more pointless hoops I need to jump through before you'll deign to provide us with an answer. Once again, instead of answering a question in good faith, you have written an essay about my personal character. "If anyone here IS Antifa, it's you." - well then maybe listen to me when I tell you that everything you believe about Antifa™ is fucking stupid and absolutely wrong.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I already asked "what have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening." In true bad faith style, you neglected to answer this question and instead asked for my opinion on the video first - which I, in good faith, gave you. You never got back to me.








You won't admit you're with Antifa.

You plagiarize.

And yet here you are harping on about how we shouldn't take PV seriously AT ALL, and it has NO MERIT WHATSOEVER because they've been caught deceiving others. (And I've argued that point despite agreeing they have flaws.)

By your own logic, I should completely block you and never take your seriously, because I've caught you now. Twice. (You won't deny your association with Antifa. I'm waiting.)

But because I find your logic deplorable, I'm not gonna block you. Good thing I don't think like you, really. Because you'd be the first to go. Everyone else here just has a big ego... but there's something about you I just can't put my finger on, but your willingness to deceive on one hand and then talk about how we should completely ignore deceivers without entertaining them at all on the other is honestly laughable.

And to be honest, I hate talking about people... but you just bring me to this level. I don't know what it is about your method, but knowing that anti deception and anti-censorship is like my life's mission, I think everything about your style just rubs me the wrong way.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 12:46 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898742 - 08/25/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's the difference.

I showed that Project Veritas: (1) has made incorrect claims, (2) knew the claims were incorrect when making them, (3) deceptively edited video to provide misleading evidence in support of their incorrect claim.

All three of those were required before I labeled PV as an intentionally deceptive organization.

You showed that I: (1) copy-paste without attribution. You didn't show that the information I copy-paste was incorrect, nor that I knew the claims being copied were incorrect, nor that I deceptively edited what I copy-paste in order to provide misleading evidence.


I claimed that Project Veritas publishes intentionally deceptive information, and therefore Project Veritas is intentionally deceptive.
You claimed that I am intentionally deceptive, and therefore my information is intentionally deceptive.

I attacked the information to get at the character - you attacked the character to get at the information.

That's a significant and fundamental difference. If you are here to discuss in good faith, answer questions posed to you in good faith!


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898802 - 08/25/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Let me clarify MY position: I am not saying PV's deception is above or below yours, I am saying deception is deception and I want the truth of it no matter what, and I find neither you, nor PV, to be discounted entirely based on your deception.

I understand you've justified your deception. We all have done that. That is why exposure matters more to me than judgment. That is why content matters to me more than anything, regardless of the TYPE of deception, whether it is your style or PV's style, it is deception.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898806 - 08/25/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I claimed that Project Veritas publishes intentionally deceptive information, and therefore Project Veritas is intentionally deceptive.




I think they have justified their deception for personal moral reasons in the same way you have yours, and you would be all the wiser for realizing it.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/25/20 01:26 PM)


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898834 - 08/25/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If deception on the part of PV or myself isn't enough to discount the content, then let's return to the content.

I've already provided my opinion of it: It's video of self-defence classes interspersed with the "infiltrator" (ie, signed up for the gym class) narrating a completely different story about terrorism - ominous background music - and a slideshow of unrelated riots at the very end.

What have you done to examine and verify (as much as possible) the claims made in the specific video that you shared by Project Veritas? My mind is open and listening.

I assume it's to do with the existence of a domestic terror organization named "Antifa" but perhaps you could start by restating the claim supported by the video.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898879 - 08/25/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No personal offense to you, but I'm sick of hearing that shit and I'm not even conservative. They don't want war, they just know how to defend themselves if it comes down to it. They pray for peace, especially knowing those that will suffer THE MOST will be large, leftist cities. (Mark my words.)






That’s an awfully threatening statement for someone who claims the desire for civil war is bullshit .


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898893 - 08/25/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So to be clear, you haven't gone back to examine the veracity of the claims in the video?




Let me answer this question directly one more time for the record and that is I usually let a lot of videos stand alone at face value if it's apparent to me the people in them are not actors. (This really is not hard to tell.) The most examination I did on PV was due to you, actually, and I found that after examining PV it did not change how I felt about the content of the videos. I either liked them or I did not, as I can usually spot deceptive editing on the spot anyway. I can usually tell when someone is being misrepresented or being portrayed honestly.

Content over creator is my position, which is why I didn't dismiss your content even though you plagiarized, I simply wanted the accuracy of everyone's position.


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