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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: 1uptoadstool]
    #26898467 - 08/25/20 10:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ever play Pac-Man? sometimes you go so far left that you vanish and appear on the far right of the screen and BOOM just like that your a fascist!




LMFAO!


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26898469 - 08/25/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.

No justice - no peace.




If you're talking about the video above your comment, this has to be the most twisted, fucked up logic I've ever seen.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898482 - 08/25/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Why? You blame the riots for the harm they have both directly and indirectly caused. A source Billy Ray provided even blamed a police murder on the riots.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
In the period of time the riots have existed, more black people have died directly or indirectly due to the rioting than there have been police shootings, including children... something cops pretty much never do. :shrug:






Why can't I do the same for the police?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26898488 - 08/25/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898499 - 08/25/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.


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Edited by christopera (08/25/20 10:48 AM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898504 - 08/25/20 10:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I blamed the cops, not the business owner. Are you suggesting that the cops are the battered housewife in your analogy?


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898507 - 08/25/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

On the other hand, you appear to be blaming victims of police abuse and violence for their treatment:

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."




Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
A source Billy Ray provided even blamed a police murder on the riots.





Murderous cop immediately after killing business owner: " I only shot you because you make me angry. It's your fault."
Vahn421: "Yup, blame it on the riots."


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898552 - 08/25/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898556 - 08/25/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.

No justice - no peace.




It's more than just the killer cops, it's a unjust laws and everyday policing tactics that brings out that level of frustration to the streets. I really wish the narrative of 'killer cops' would stop being the only rational for the protests and frustration we're seeing across the US today. Essentially, it lets the whole Establishment and criminal justice system off the hook.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman]
    #26898559 - 08/25/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah I agree with that assessment. Protest slogans and nuance don't often go together.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898573 - 08/25/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just another horrible example of how police violence indirectly harms the community. We need to stop killer cops from continuing to create public unrest.



If you're talking about the video above your comment, this has to be the most twisted, fucked up logic I've ever seen.



I agree with Vahn.  I'm surprised anyone here is blaming the cops because a bunch of thugs burned a guys business down and knocked him to the ground when he tried to protect it.


But even more fucked up logic is here, where it was claimed cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.

I side with Vahn that the killing of that guy was absolutely wrong, but the odds of him being shot when he decided to be disobedient probably went up many thousands of times, which I think is obvious to most here.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421]
    #26898575 - 08/25/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I haven't given any specific examples, nor have I made any particular comment to my recollection endorsing Billy Ray's examples.



Well, maybe you will now take the opportunity to provide some specific examples in support of your claim, or comment on Billy Ray's examples, because right now all we have is Billy Ray's examples.

While we're at it, I'm still waiting for you to respond with what you have done to examine and verify the claims made in that Project Veritas video you shared. It's been 9 days since I asked, and 4 days since you said "Give me another day or two. I'm not ignoring you."

I'm starting to think you are intentionally ignoring my requests for supporting evidence of your claims. Now's the time to prove me wrong.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: christopera]
    #26898577 - 08/25/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)


--------------------
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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26898581 - 08/25/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

As Qman has stated a few times already then, why not go after those that are actually causing the harm? Why are innocent people targets of rioting and looting? Even tearing up larger chains like Target means job loss often for minority communities. Why block the traffic of innocent bystanders?

Don't you want allies?

I WAS a fucking ally until the left started doing this shit in the mainstream against the innocent. I want to make that very clear. Me and many people I know were on your side until you all started going off against fucking over innocent people for no god damn good reason.

You're not going to get us as allies until you stop doing that.

And nobody I know that thinks the way I do is blind to the mistakes cops make and the reform that needs to happen, in particular the ending of the drug war... but I'm not a fan of the extremism against law-enforcement because it is the least-worst option we have until humans as a collective species become more enlightened.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898587 - 08/25/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
But even more fucked up logic is here, where it was claimed cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders..



I provided supporting evidence for my claim. Compliance is not protection from police violence.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Ah, the ol' 'just follow orders' defence.

Like Philando Castile?

Quote:

The police dashcam video shows that 40 seconds elapsed between when Yanez first started talking to Castile through the car window and when Yanez began shooting at him. According to the dashcam, after Yanez asked for Castile's driver's license and proof of insurance, Castile gave him his proof of insurance card, which Yanez appeared to glance at and tuck in his outer pocket. Castile then calmly informed Yanez: "Sir, I have to tell you that I do have a firearm on me."

Before Castile completed the sentence, Yanez interrupted and calmly replied, "OK," and placed his right hand on the holster of his own holstered weapon. Yanez said, "Okay, don't reach for it, then ... don't pull it out." Castile responded, "I'm not pulling it out," and Reynolds also said, "He's not pulling it out." Yanez repeated, raising his voice, "Don't pull it out!" as he quickly pulled his own gun with his right hand and reached inside the driver's window with his left hand. Reynolds screamed, "No!" Yanez removed his left arm from the car and fired seven shots in the direction of Castile in rapid succession. Reynolds yelled, "You just killed my boyfriend!" Castile moaned and said, "I wasn't reaching for it." Reynolds loudly said, "He wasn't reaching for it." Before she completed her sentence, Yanez again screamed, "Don't pull it out!" Reynolds responded, "He wasn't." Yanez yelled, "Don't move! Fuck!"






Or Daniel Shaver?

Quote:

Police Sergeant Charles Langley then ordered Shaver, who was lying prone, to cross his legs. Moments later, he ordered Shaver to push himself "up to a kneeling position". While complying with the order to kneel, Shaver uncrossed his legs and Langley shouted that Shaver needed to keep his legs crossed. Startled, Shaver then put his hands behind his back and was again warned by Langley to keep his hands in the air. Langley yelled at Shaver that if he deviated from police instructions again, they would shoot him. Sergeant Langley told Shaver not to put his hands down for any reason. Shaver said, "Please don't shoot me". Upon being instructed to crawl, Shaver put his hands down and crawled on all fours. While crawling towards the officers, Shaver paused and moved his right hand towards his waistband. Officer Philip Brailsford, who later testified he believed that Shaver was reaching for a weapon, then opened fire with his AR-15 rifle, striking Shaver five times and killing him almost instantly. Shaver was unarmed, and may have been attempting to prevent his shorts from slipping down.







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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26898594 - 08/25/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898595 - 08/25/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)



The business owner, not the cops, would be the 'battered wife' in Vahn421's analogy. No one has blamed the business owner - we're calling out the police violence (like shooting an unarmed man in the back multiple times) for continuing to create public unrest.


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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26898598 - 08/25/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm saying the odds of someone getting shot for non-compliance goes up IMMENSELY.



It's still not wrong to claim " cops might have shot a guy even if he complied with their orders.."


This statement, on the other hand, is certainly make believe and I'm surprised it got past you: "Both this guy and George Floyd would be alive if they just complied." source


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Offlineqman
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26898602 - 08/25/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
As Qman has stated a few times already then, why not go after those that are actually causing the harm? Why are innocent people targets of rioting and looting? Even tearing up larger chains like Target means job loss often for minority communities. Why block the traffic of innocent bystanders?

Don't you want allies?

I WAS a fucking ally until the left started doing this shit in the mainstream against the innocent. I want to make that very clear. Me and many people I know were on your side until you all started going off against fucking over innocent people for no god damn good reason.

You're not going to get us as allies until you stop doing that.

And nobody I know that thinks the way I do is blind to the mistakes cops make and the reform that needs to happen, in particular the ending of the drug war... but I'm not a fan of the extremism against law-enforcement because it is the least-worst option we have until humans as a collective species become more enlightened.




An emotional mob has no clarity of thought, it has no intellect like you're expecting. The chaos and destruction has proven to get attention despite its misguidance.

Has the movement moved on at times to where it should?  Yes, but it's spotty at best. A frustrated mob will come in and out of clarity, it just depends on the environment.

You have to understand, The Elite doesn't want the mob to bring up the 'war on drugs' and 'criminal justice reform'. They want to bring down statues and have the police reform themselves and not change a dam thing.

There is no negotiation with The Elite on this issue, it's either hit the streets or live with the status quo. There is no self reforming this system, it doesn't work in that manner.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Mostly peaceful protests [Re: qman]
    #26898620 - 08/25/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Because your example is like an abusive husband saying to a housewife. "I only hit you because you make me angry. It's your fault."



You seem like an ntelligent individual, but then you say stuff like that.



He's right though.  The protesters only burned buildings and hurt people because the cops made them angry, if I understand the rationale correctly (or is there another reason they're doing it?)




When you have no agency, when your voice isn’t enough, sometimes you have to burn that shit to the ground. It’s not right, and that’s the point. Rather than blame those without a voice, we should give them agency. If they had agency, if they were stakeholders, then they wouldn’t have to go to these extremes. I reckon that you are aware of this, Fal. Vahn however lands in the authoritarian/fascist mind set all of the time, so he clearly doesn’t get it.

It’s been proven time and time again that certain groups are either stripped of the stakeholder status or simply not included in the first place. What are we going to do about it? Some people are distraught because Starbucks was burnt down. Cry me a river.


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Edited by christopera (08/25/20 12:05 PM)


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