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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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A note on mushrooms and potency * 27
    #26878383 - 08/13/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Hi people! I’ve seen a lot of questions regarding dosage of active mushroom species over the years and I have to say that often the responses overlook some key aspects regarding the most basic of dosing metrics. While most of what I am about to say is common knowledge in the cultivation scene, much of it is completely misunderstood by the general public.

People are used to medications that come from a lab, have a guaranteed active ingredient content and thus no one concerns themselves with the notion the medication they took wouldn’t work the same if they didn’t have that guaranteed dose. But when we are dealing with mushrooms this is no longer as concrete, many factors can cause the potency to be other than what you may expect. Too often I see people dispensing dosage advice without any consideration of these variables. I consider this to be irresponsible and ignorant.

The first factor to consider is the species you are about to ingest. There are hundreds of active species with more being discovered. Different species not only have wildly different quantities of actives, there is some evidence that some species may contain additional alkaloids not present in others or in lower quantities. Wood lovers such as Psilocybe azurescens are confirmed to contain a compound called aeruginascin that may be responsible for a condition termed “woodlovers paralysis.” Trace amounts of aeruginascin have now been isolated in Ps. cubensis. New compounds are being discovered as well, the most recent I’m aware of was the discovery of norpsilocin which was isolated in Ps. cubensis. Other compounds are also being found where they are not expected such as the discovery of serotonin derivatives in all species in the Panaeolus genus. In addition to all of this each species has a range of potency with some species being many times more active than others. This means that it’s very important to at least know what species of mushrooms you have and have some understanding of what compounds may be present. It’s also important to be aware that the potency of these species can vary massively.

The next factor to consider is the specific genetics of the mushrooms in question. Potency can vary greatly within some species, especially within the most commonly cultivated species Ps cubensis. Ps cubensis can range from stone bunk to close to Pan cyan (a very potent species). This range is nearly impossible to predict despite some varieties in it having notable tendencies in regard to potency. This means that it’s not possible to definitely predict the potency of a mushroom grow unless it’s done with a clone or isolated culture who’s potency has already been evaluated. Any wild found mushroom or even a lab grown mushroom without that level of control will have a level of variation that has to be expected. This can be an issue in two ways; if the mushrooms are more potent than expected, lower doses will be needed for microdosing. Otherwise a person might still experience a much stronger effect than they desired; at that point a microdose could end up being a level one or two trip. On the other hand, if the mushrooms are stone bunk a microdose regimen will have no real benefit (other than psychological) and the person might not even realize it.

The third thing to consider is fresh vs dry. So often people get this confused. Fresh mushrooms (at least for most active species) are roughly 90% water. This means that 10 grams of fresh mushrooms will equal around 1 gram dry. 2 grams of fresh cubes might be a decent microdose for most but 2 grams dry will have most people feeling pretty pronounced effects. This can be greatly exacerbated with the issues of potency and specific genetics that I discussed earlier. To further muddy the waters some actives will be lost during the drying process which can result in weaker than expected dry fruit or more potent than expected fresh fruits.

Which brings us to the fourth point, and that is that how the wet fruit are processed and stored can also effect potency. Water is the means by which most of the oxidation or enzymatic reactions responsible for lost potency take place. Dry fruit is the only way to preserve the actives long term. Unfortunately old myths of heat destroying potency still about despite them have very little scientific backing. This means people are still fan drying or using desiccates to dry the fruits. These methods often result in much of the actives being lost and a weaker product. The goal should be to denature the enzymes and get the fruits dry as quickly as possible. Poor storage is also a problem, sunlight will degrade the actives and if the cracker dry fruits end up absorbing moisture from the air they can end up rotted and bunk. How we process and store the mushrooms will massively effect their potency.

So having said all of this I still think mushrooms have huge potential as medicine for people that they can access easily and find relief in. But we need to be aware of what we are working with, there is still much that is unknown about these life forms and we need to take care that our advice to people is done with a sense of harm reduction as being the main focus. No matter where you are sourcing your mushrooms be it the woods, the internet, a grow kit, etc, it’s important to treat them with respect. Erlichs can be used to at least confirm activity and care when dosing fruits with an unknown potency will ensure more people can get the relief they are looking for. Haphazard dosage advice is going to lead to overwhelming trips or missed opportunities.


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InvisibleReverendMyc

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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26878409 - 08/13/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Solid post. Sticky worthy or at least added to a list of good "teks/read me firsts" like the ones in the Getting Started thread.


--------------------
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OfflineRapjack
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #26878450 - 08/13/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed. This could be a very useful sticky in Psychedelic Experience too.


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Offlinemistermushly

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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26878818 - 08/13/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Good to see a comprehensive post about all that factors into potency!

I have been focused on potency personally lately, since I grew what I believe may be my first "bunk" batch. It was a golden teacher strain. One big fruit that measured 2 grams. It was frustrating to block off a big portion of my day and receive little to no effect at all.

A technique I sometimes use that I think is worth mentioning, is taking the entire yield of all your flushes if possible, drying, and grinding into powder. Then any potency differences in individual fruits will equalize. You and friends will be assured of the same dosage, as well as knowing what to expect when you take more from that batch.

So a targeted question to you Pasty, from what I understand from your post; without a ton of inaccessible lab equipment and expertise,  the Erlichs test is the only method at the moment to determine if there's psilocybin present ..  but it CAN NOT determine the amount, correct?

thanks for all you do, and all the knowledge you've shared!


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #26880621 - 08/14/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Erlich’s cannot tell you the concentration. But it can confirm activity. I also worry about mushrooms as powder may lose potency over time. It’s probably not a big issue but I prefer to grow with known genetics (though I understand it’s not always feasible to do that).


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Offlinemistermushly

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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 2
    #26880867 - 08/14/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Erlich’s cannot tell you the concentration. But it can confirm activity. I also worry about mushrooms as powder may lose potency over time. It’s probably not a big issue but I prefer to grow with known genetics (though I understand it’s not always feasible to do that).




So I take it there's no current ( citizen scientist style ) way to test the levels of psilocybin and Psilocin? I'm sure that question has been asked a few times :lol: ... by "known genetics" you mean growing from the same starter ( LC, LI, or MS ) that you personally know and have tested? or trading with friends that can vouch for potency when trading prints or something? or just growing strains that are reliable (if there is such a thing) like PE maybe? So far I have been just focusing on grow speed, and yield -  maybe I've been lucky until now - wasn't considering growing batches of lame-ass Bunk shrooms :rolleyes:


... You are by far the expert, though I had great success drying out shrooms to bone/cracker dry / magic bullet to an ultra fine dust / then storing them in a mason jar in the freezer with a few desiccant packs. Lasted 3 years like that and seemed still as potent as they were originally.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #26883094 - 08/16/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some people may be working on ways that erlichs can provide an indication of concentration. I should message those people and see how they are making out on that front.

When I say known genetics I’m talking about isolates or clones that have already be grown out and bioassayed. Starting from spores is technically a crapshoot although I do believe the lineage of a spore sample will contribute to “loading the dice” somewhat.

If you are having success with your powdered mush that’s cool. It’s your grow and harvest. I just have my own proclivities as do most hobbiests here.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26884117 - 08/16/20 11:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
When I say known genetics I’m talking about isolates or clones that have already be grown out and bioassayed. Starting from spores is technically a crapshoot although I do believe the lineage of a spore sample will contribute to “loading the dice” somewhat.





Thanks for sharing the knowledge and approaches, really helpful.

So from what I understand as the genetics get narrowed, so do the likelihood that similar potency will occur. I assume that the physical traits may not always correlate.

Speaking of your unique proclivities, are you comfortable enough calculating potency by narrowing the genetics down from a isolate from 1 or 2 generations of agar grows - then making an LC or LI ( that's been my approach) ... or are you digging deeper and trying to cultivate ( or trade/obtain )?  pure isolated genetics or something similar to a mono-culture?


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 3
    #26943469 - 09/19/20 02:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I feel this could use a bump. So I made it a sticky :grin:


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #26945609 - 09/20/20 07:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mistermushly said:
... You are by far the expert, though I had great success drying out shrooms to bone/cracker dry / magic bullet to an ultra fine dust / then storing them in a mason jar in the freezer with a few desiccant packs. Lasted 3 years like that and seemed still as potent as they were originally.



If you grind them into fine dust and want to store that long term you might as well make it into chocolate and put that into the freezer. That's how most my older flushes ended up and I'd be surprised if there was any noticeable potency loss over years. It's dark, no oxygen can get to it and it's frozen.


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Offlinemistermushly

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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: LittleBoard] * 1
    #26946555 - 09/20/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LittleBoard said:
Quote:

mistermushly said:
... You are by far the expert, though I had great success drying out shrooms to bone/cracker dry / magic bullet to an ultra fine dust / then storing them in a mason jar in the freezer with a few desiccant packs. Lasted 3 years like that and seemed still as potent as they were originally.



If you grind them into fine dust and want to store that long term you might as well make it into chocolate and put that into the freezer. That's how most my older flushes ended up and I'd be surprised if there was any noticeable potency loss over years. It's dark, no oxygen can get to it and it's frozen.




I think chocolate could be a nice delivery method and a fun thing to share with others...

don't mean to stray away too far from what I believe the original intent of this post is... About understanding and measuring dosage - not necessarily preserving dosage. It's great info as using mush is reaching a wider audience at the current moment, the knowlege of potency as well as terms thrown around like "micro-dosing" etc. are being frequently misunderstood. Pasty covers some really key things about different types ( Cube, cyan, etc. ) having different potentiates and the often overlooked fact that the average person consuming doesn't realize the variability in potency that can happen from shoom to shoom even from the same flush etc.

What I was trying to get at mostly with my responses is asking if there is a way these days to actually measure the amount of active compounds (psilocybin, psilocin, etc). if not, I think the best solution for me is to consider the guidelines Pasty outlined, with this in mind ! personally grind them up to a powder and mix to help ensure an even dosage of that particular batch. I think that's the best you can do without being able to measure the actual strength.


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Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26946654 - 09/20/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What are your thoughts on fruiting temps and the potency of Cubes? Reading all of the vague references, conflicting info, and personal experiences put out as fact out there, I've felt for a long time that the length of time the fruit bodies form, from primordia to maturity(?sporulation?Spore formation?), is the largest contributing factor to maximising potential alkaloid content, which I'm assuming is determined by genetics. (Special substrate ingredients being endlessly debated and, as far as I can tell, more or less disproven as a necessity for full potential.)
 
  The length of maturation also being affected by genetics in the case of the PE variants and mutants, which just seem to keep going past the point other cubes would have sporulated. That quality is also accentuated by the naturally solid stems, but growing common cubes in colder ambient cause meaty stems too.
  Does the fact that a lot of PE and variants do not produce spores, the biological trigger to shift function being absent, contribute to them being so very different in potential potency than more common varieties? Because a cube is a cube, right? Until it's not....the only factor that seems to be the common denominator with 'strong' cubes, all things being equal? As far as I can tell, How long they grew on the block.
 
  Granted, it's all anecdotal, but its always seemed to me that the slow growing fruits, be it caused by genetics or ambient temps, have always packed that extra punch, and I've always strived for that. Back at my old place I kinda stuck the big fruiting runs to the colder months, if possible. There definitely were runs of a few plates that the fruits took FOREVER to finish, despite ideal ambient, etc, and those usually ended up being kick ass. (Hindsight is always 20/20. possible great cultures lost due to lack of 20/20 vision)

  Obviously, controlling fruiting temps is not on most peoples "can do" list, which is the case for me, and this is all just thinking out loud. Important to add, as far as other actives and their growth patterns, I only have hands-on experience with cubes, so I am far less versed in the wider fungal cultivation universe than many, and my rationale is specifically concerning cubes. I would love to hear more experienced myco-wranglers' thoughts...


Edited by FlufferNutter (09/20/20 06:25 PM)


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: FlufferNutter] * 2
    #26946665 - 09/20/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Personally I don’t buy that cool temps make for more potent cubes, certainly it affects their stature and maturation speed but I haven’t really seen anything that made me think cool temps increased potency while warm temps decreased it. It’s more about the genetics.

PE and it’s variants do produce spores, they simply don’t eject them. If they didn’t produce spores at all they would eventually be extinct.

If I want potent fruit I prefer to hunt for potent genetics. Temps has more to do with timelines and contam control than potency IMO.


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26947838 - 09/21/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Right on!
  I appreciate the feedback Pasty! The nerd in me wishes it were easier to get things like this analyzed. Although, the dirth of experience from cats such as yourself is likely just as informative.

It just seems like, because of the status of them and real deal analytics just arent feasible, it leaves a lot of unanswered questions, scientifically speaking. In the end, a lot of them are essentially moot points, but it would be cool to have the numbers. Meh...


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: FlufferNutter] * 1
    #26971102 - 10/05/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Nice discussion guys!

Is there a updated information on how to properly dry and storage the mushrooms?


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Churchill_85] * 1
    #26971135 - 10/05/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Despite all my anecdotes I too wish for hard numbers or the ability to even submit samples for analysis. Maybe one day I’ll be able to answer questions without a caveat.

Get them dry as fast as possible. Store in an airtight container for long term. Many people like a dehydrator for ease of access and use.


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26971151 - 10/05/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If I want potent fruit I prefer to hunt for potent genetics. Temps has more to do with timelines and contam control than potency IMO.





How exactly do you go about doing this outside of eating some to see if they are more/less potent.  At that point they are either dry or consumed.  How can you identify potent genetics?

Is it a matter of working with various monoculture until you find a particularly potent batch, then clone a fruit or label that particular culture?


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: maniac1886] * 1
    #26971211 - 10/05/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yep you just gotta eat some and catalogue your cultures accordingly.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26974092 - 10/07/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

solid post, brother


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: verum subsequentis] * 1
    #27015526 - 11/01/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Following and book marking. I didn’t even know,”Wood lovers paralysis” even existed. Pretty fascinating! Because of everything you listed and what I believe is responsible with any drug. I start really small, and work my way up, for mushrooms I usually do .5g or 1g and then work my way up on different occasions by .5-1gram more. I’ve had people in the past tell me, “you need to take 4g to have visuals and really blast off.” Then I decided to take 2 g instead and have a amazing time still.


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: NecroMyce] * 2
    #27015650 - 11/01/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The dose entirely depends on the particular genetics and the person consuming. I always tell folks if they are new or scared, take a half gram for the first time and see how you like it. An hour later, if you want, take a half more. Some of my clones are so powerful that folks who say they are experienced and need at least four grams eat only two grams (as per my advise) and come back reporting that it blew their mind.


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Offlinebasidionerd
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27042270 - 11/16/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Mmm, good shit, I agree strangers offering dosage advice to strangers (or friend-to-friend) often leaves out these factors.

Bottom line is, genetics determine potency more than growing condition. That's why certain SPECIES are so much more potent than other species....they've evolved to produce more active compounds. Thus the average Ps cubensis has a lower % of active compounds than Ps azurescens or Pan cyans. Of course, expert growers can isolate and clone stronger cubes, but the genome of Ps. cubensis has limitations on it.


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Offlinehowdidigethere
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: basidionerd] * 1
    #27042598 - 11/16/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

one thing I've wanted to ask people with years of experience is are we by "selecting" traits creating stronger mushrooms and greater yields? Some strains have been going for decades correct?


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: howdidigethere] * 1
    #27042752 - 11/16/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Just as it’s possible to select for potency and breed lines where potent traits are more common, it’s just as easy to do the opposite. Which strains have had care or even a positive fluke occur during its domestication? Hard to say. Genetic drift and other issues can also occur over repeated selfing.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27126147 - 01/04/21 01:05 PM (3 years, 23 days ago)

excellent op Pastywhyte, really well written!


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OfflineGman9237
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #27148633 - 01/14/21 08:53 PM (3 years, 12 days ago)

very well said thank you


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Gman9237] * 1
    #27164773 - 01/23/21 02:33 AM (3 years, 4 days ago)

As a noob, this is one of the most thoughtful and informative threads I have read. Thank you Pasty and all who commented.


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OfflineMr. Mushie

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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27166045 - 01/23/21 07:23 PM (3 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If I want potent fruit I prefer to hunt for potent genetics. Temps has more to do with timelines and contam control than potency IMO.




Say I take a clone and grow a tub with that culture.

I then eat an 1/8 and find that i'm satisfied with the strength of that culture.

Can it be reasonably assumed that the strength would be consistent throughout the entire tub? (66qt pasty ez dial for example)

I get it, it's a clone so in theory it would be. Just curious to hear your thoughts.

We test cultures for speed (on agar, on grain, post spawning), yield, and potency... yet potency seems like the most elusive part of cult.


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Mr. Mushie] * 1
    #27194733 - 02/09/21 03:31 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Wow. Awesome write up. Should be required reading.
:takingnotes:


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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Ran] * 1
    #27194822 - 02/09/21 05:46 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

reasonably assumed...



Yes.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27198068 - 02/10/21 07:35 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks PastyWhite. Thought provoking and helpful. Even the dry wet differential - myself as an early noob cultivator seeing the difference between bone-cracker-snap-into-powder dry weight vs 95-98% dry. Wow. And how swiftly the fruit will re-hydrate if left exposed to air. To a noob 5g might seem like 5g, but upon closer inspection... :shocked: Looking back it explains a lot of inconsistency and varied experiences.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27240314 - 03/06/21 11:01 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you for your words of wisdom.  I am wondering if in the structure has it been found certain parts (such as the cap) having more potency than other areas? Also cleaning how much of the stem should be cut off and how much should stay?


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: jollygreengiant87] * 1
    #27240337 - 03/06/21 11:14 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

jollygreengiant87 said:
Thank you for your words of wisdom.  I am wondering if in the structure has it been found certain parts (such as the cap) having more potency than other areas? Also cleaning how much of the stem should be cut off and how much should stay?




Not much real work has been done in terms of potency...there was a study not long ago that found that caps seemed to have more but I questioned the results. Mainly because the genetics weren’t controlled and the authors themselves felt the results were more correlation than anything else.

Having grown lots of Penis envy (which typically has tiny caps and huge stipes) I don’t really buy much into the idea that caps are significantly stronger. For most people it seems that stipes from a strong clone are doing the job quite well given the response I get when someone eats some PE (which are mostly stipe). Personally I’d worry more about the specific genetics or how the fruits were processed and stored. Stipe vs cap arguments generally aren’t something experienced people look to debate which tells you a fair bit.

Cleaning is a personal thing. I just look to trim off the parts that are laden with substrate and preserve as much fruit material as possible. I do have a number of family and friends with celiac so I like to be sure no grain is tagging along. But it’s a personal choice, some people have no issue making tea from colonized manure and drinking it so I’m not going to judge. Think of them as food and prep them accordingly is how I like to go about it.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27278842 - 04/23/21 02:52 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)



Edited by mistermushly (04/23/21 03:50 AM)


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #27279120 - 04/23/21 09:53 AM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I only gave that link a once over but, it looks like it’s quite well done. Far more control seems to have been employed and they seem to recognize genetics role more so than previous studies have. Interesting note was the PE that only came up as B range which really hammers home the variability. I’m going to read this a few more times, thanks for posting it.

I wonder how a potent RW clone would have fared in that study.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27279528 - 04/23/21 04:51 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Agreed, It's great to see a more scientifically based study. I found that low rating PE interesting as well, re-inforces what you have been discussing about the role of genetics on this thread. Would have loved to see a wide ranges from supposedly low potency B+ to APE, and my current fave LPEU. also wondering what the top rated N/A was. hmmm

I just know realized that you were the creator of Rusty White. Looks like the Sometimes I miss the obvious lol. I'd love to give that a go sometime soon... looks like Oakland Hyphae has repeating events called the Psilocybin Cup. We should definitely get RW in the mix  :rockon:


Edited by mistermushly (04/23/21 05:07 PM)


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #27299816 - 05/08/21 07:59 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Pretty promising research on the horizon. Glad to see some up to date info.

My biggest concern here was that there was no discussion on methods of dehydration nor storage. They didnt discuss the age of the mushrooms tested. It appears as though the cultivators themselves may have had more of an influence on the final potency.


Edited by Knucklehead (05/08/21 08:01 AM)


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27300050 - 05/08/21 11:17 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you for saying that. jeez anint that hard to comprehend


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: BoleteLove] * 1
    #27306387 - 05/12/21 09:58 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks, Pasty. I appreciate the solid write-up. I love the hobby and if I don't 'dose'regularly I get slammed with Cluster Headaches aka Suicide Headaches.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02981173

I have a great motivator to become a great cultivator.
:ohmyfuck:

Pertinent to me being, also, 'interested in alcoholism,' I heard James Faddiman tell Sam Harris that when he was running clinincals, he discovered that alcoholics need 8 grams to get a 4-gram trip. I may be sober nearly 35 years, but unfortunatley I can attest to the truth of it, drinking or, in my caase, not.

And then there are serotonin blockers, and calcium channel blockers, et cetera.

I did about 8 g PE a couple of years ago and got a low Level 2 out of them.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #27315564 - 05/19/21 08:44 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ReverendMyc said:
Solid post. Sticky worthy or at least added to a list of good "teks/read me firsts" like the ones in the Getting Started thread.




I 2nd this


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Ashtray161] * 1
    #27508808 - 10/18/21 09:08 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

"Wood lovers such as Psilocybe azurescens are confirmed to contain a compound called aeruginascin that may be responsible for a condition termed “woodlovers paralysis.” Trace amounts of aeruginascin.."


Maybe this part needs a update, don't we today think that aeruginascin is the good/ bad trip regulator ? Or?


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: smalltalk_canceled] * 1
    #27508930 - 10/18/21 10:55 AM (2 years, 3 months ago)

I’m not sure the results on it being a good/bad trip regulator are in the can unless you have a link I could have a look at. But certainly a lot has happened in the 15 months that have passed since I wrote the OP. Hard to believe that much time has passed. I will definitely be giving the whole thing a going over soon.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 2
    #27618303 - 01/14/22 09:32 AM (2 years, 13 days ago)

I agree with the OP's post 100% and found it very informative.

I bought a freeze drier for my emergency food storage and am using it for my shrooms. I store the freeze dried shrooms in mylar bags sealed with an O2 absorber packet. If shrooms are like all my other freeze dried produce, then there is very little loss of nutrients and actives. I have tried both air dried and FD'd doses and can state subjectively that there is a noticeable difference in strength, but that again, is just a subjective opinion as I am not equipped to determine active amounts of compounds present. Even if one dehydrates their product, storage in mylar bags with an O2 absorber and storage temp control will go a long way in preserving the actives over time in my opinion. Light, temperature, and oxygen exposure are the factors I focus on mitigating.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27621499 - 01/16/22 06:28 PM (2 years, 11 days ago)

This information is extremely valuable.
Both me and a friend wonder why our friends who weigh 2 to 3x our weight achieve results at .05 to 1.5 gm P. Cube & PE and we don't.
I've never ingested any psychoactive fungi in my life (I'm 60) and needed more than 2.0(dried) to achieve anything close to the effect of others. After later discussion between recipients, I found that two of us were prescribed the same anti seizure drug. One of us at 2x the strength of the other. Both of us require higher doses than those who aren't prescribed any anti-depressants or anti-seizure medication.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: SeaSalt] * 1
    #27621521 - 01/16/22 06:56 PM (2 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

SeaSalt said:
This information is extremely valuable.
Both me and a friend wonder why our friends who weigh 2 to 3x our weight achieve results at .05 to 1.5 gm P. Cube & PE and we don't.
I've never ingested any psychoactive fungi in my life (I'm 60) and needed more than 2.0(dried) to achieve anything close to the effect of others. After later discussion between recipients, I found that two of us were prescribed the same anti seizure drug. One of us at 2x the strength of the other. Both of us require higher doses than those who aren't prescribed any anti-depressants or anti-seizure medication.




You need 2HTA receptors to be abailable. SSRIs and other serotonin-targeted psych meds are blockers, e.g.cymbalta, mirtazipine/ Also calcium-channel blockers blcokd psychedlics [and erections].

Also, alcoholics require approximately a 2x dose over non-alkies. I usually do around 4g cubes to get low L2.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: SpaceBaby] * 1
    #27641412 - 02/01/22 06:59 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Did anyone try the Miraculix home test kit for Psilocybin?


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: LSDCubed] * 1
    #27656055 - 02/12/22 06:56 AM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Following this thread :smile:


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Strawberry1] * 1
    #27666697 - 02/20/22 04:25 PM (1 year, 11 months ago)

Great information. I had an oz of dry chopped in an air tight loose 80% potency in 6 months. Oxygen exposure was the only offender. Dessicated employed..gel,coco, alcohol seem to be reliable anti oxygen seals..


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27706396 - 03/24/22 01:02 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Hey guys new here, I’ve just bought 7 grams of what I’ve been told are dried (subs) but I’m a little sketched out knowing that there is poisonous mushrooms that are similar and easily mixed up with, is there possibly any ways to identify subs from galerina when they are dried out? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Cheers


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Billyboy2] * 3
    #27706783 - 03/24/22 10:48 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Billyboy2 said:
Hey guys new here, I’ve just bought 7 grams of what I’ve been told are dried (subs) but I’m a little sketched out knowing that there is poisonous mushrooms that are similar and easily mixed up with, is there possibly any ways to identify subs from galerina when they are dried out? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Cheers




You would be better off asking ID questions here MHID with photos of said fruits. Also it’s very different to identify dried fungi. The easy way to tell a galerina is they have brown spores so look at those. But personally I would avoid buying wild collections from people you don’t implicitly trust, especially given how easy it is to grow them.


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27710355 - 03/27/22 09:53 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

21 grams of fresh Cyanesence is nothing like 21 grams of fresh cubenses.


This is the best science project.


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Edited by TheConfluence (03/27/22 09:54 AM)


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: TheConfluence] * 1
    #27713392 - 03/29/22 08:17 PM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Is wood lover's paralysis kind of like extreme time dilation where you feel like you were frozen in time after having not moved for like 2 seconds?


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: amanituser] * 1
    #27716074 - 04/01/22 05:13 AM (1 year, 9 months ago)

Quote:

amanituser said:
Is wood lover's paralysis kind of like extreme time dilation where you feel like you were frozen in time after having not moved for like 2 seconds?




More like a DMT style literally cant move type of thing


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27798463 - 05/29/22 11:38 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

nice post/ read. thanks


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly]
    #27873583 - 07/23/22 12:02 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

Note: This study shows that freezing results in the greatest loss of potency. Your experience shows that there was a lot of potency in your shrooms to begin with.

Note this is a direct link to the study pdf from Oregon.gov

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Documents/Stability%20of%20Psilocybin%20and%20Analogs.pdf

Here’s the abstract:

Substances, Department of Chemistry of Natural Compounds, University of Chemistry and Technology Prague, Prague 6–Dejvice, Czech Republic
2Department of Brain Electrophysiology, National Institute of Mental Health, Klecany, Czech Republic
3Institute of Geology of the Czech Academy of Sciences, Prague 6, Czech Republic
4Nuclear Physics Institute of the Czech Academy of Sciences, Husinec, Czech Republic
5Department of Organic Chemistry, University of Chemistry and Technology Prague, Prague 6–Dejvice, Czech Republic
6Department of Experimental Neurobiology, National Institute of Mental Health, Klecany, Czech Republic
Correspondence
Martin Kuchař, University of Chemistry and Technology Prague, Technická 3, 166
28 Prague 6–Dejvice, Czech Republic. Email: martin.kuchar@vscht.cz
Funding information
Czech Academy of Sciences, Grant/Award Numbers: RVO61389005, RVO67985831; Ministry of the Interior of the Czech Republic, Grant/Award Number: MV0/VI20172020056
1 | INTRODUCTION
Psychoactive mushrooms have been used as entheogens during tran- scendental ceremonies by Mexican inhabitants, mainly by shamans, for thousands of years. Mushrooms used for religious and spiritual rituals are called “magic mushrooms.”1–3 There are many mushroom species that contain high levels of tryptamines.
  Abstract
Psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin, norbaeocystin, and aeruginascin are tryptamines structurally similar to the neurotransmitter serotonin. Psilocybin and its pharmacolog- ically active metabolite psilocin in particular are known for their psychoactive effects. These substances typically occur in most species of the genus Psilocybe (Fungi, Strophariaceae). Even the sclerotia of some of these fungi known as “magic truffles” are of growing interest in microdosing due to them improving cognitive function studies. In addition to microdosing studies, psilocybin has also been applied in clinical studies, but only its pure form has been administrated so far. Moreover, the determi- nation of tryptamine alkaloids is used in forensic analysis.
In this study, freshly cultivated fruit bodies of Psilocybe cubensis were used for monitoring stability (including storage and processing conditions of fruiting bodies). Furthermore, mycelium and the individual parts of the fruiting bodies (caps, stipes, and basidiospores) were also examined. The concentration of tryptamines in final extracts was analyzed using ultra-high-performance liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry. No tryptamines were detected in the basidiospores, and only psilocin was present at 0.47 wt.% in the mycelium. The stipes contained approx- imately half the amount of tryptamine alkaloids (0.52 wt.%) than the caps (1.03 wt. %); however, these results were not statistically significant, as the concentration of tryptamines in individual fruiting bodies is highly variable. The storage conditions showed that the highest degradation of tryptamines was seen in fresh mushrooms stored at −80C, and the lowest decay was seen in dried biomass stored in the dark at room temperature.
KEYWORDS
LC-MS, mushrooms, psilocybin, stability, tryptamines


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: BrownEyedMan]
    #27873927 - 07/23/22 09:37 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

A lot of good science being done lately. I definitely remember reading that paper when it came out and feeling that it matched my personal observations. Nice share :rockon:


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27876154 - 07/25/22 03:48 AM (1 year, 6 months ago)

This was an awesome read! Thanks for the info :smile:


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27883112 - 07/30/22 04:28 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

I know this thread is about two years old…but thank the good lord above that someone finally said cubes aren’t just cubes, and drying in a dehydrator doesn’t degrade potency. I was so fed up with hearing this for so many years. I swear people just made stuff up tor the hell of it.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Bill_Bumpskin]
    #27883146 - 07/30/22 04:59 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Trying to decipher the scientific study BrownEyedMan posted (here) in practical application terms.

Quite a few few very significant take-aways in this study, which I hope some more scholarly person can confirm - thinking of maybe you Pasty : )

My personal approach is using a dehydrator at around 150F, storing in airtight mason Jars, and storing in the dark around 75F. Usually they are left whole but sometimes ground into a powder...

... so If I'm reading the study correctly, dried mushrooms that are stored in airtight containers will lose 75% of there potency within 15 months?
Whoah!!... that doesn't seem like it's aligned with my experience though I am far from an expert as I am more of a grower than a taker - and of course I lack the equipment and knowlege to test the compounds.

Also another interesting fact, if I'm reading it right, drying mushrooms at room temperatures ( rather than a dehydrator ) maintains more of their potency?

:whatdoyouthink:


Edited by mistermushly (07/30/22 05:52 PM)


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #27883207 - 07/30/22 05:51 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Right off the hop I noticed they don’t discuss how they cultivated the mushrooms. Many times these studies ignore the impact of specific genetics on potency. I’ve seen more than a few that used MS syringes and even kits which of course throws all the results into doubt. The fact that they don’t say how they produced the fruits kinda makes me want to disregard everything in this study. While the names of those involved are impressive contributors in mycology, I’ve seen these kind of mistakes before from academics who are sometimes surprised to learn that their controls were less than they believed.

It sometimes irks me how the “legit” community ignores the understanding that we in the underground have known for years and years. I’m not in a position to do much of this work myself so it drives me nuts when the outcomes of such well intentioned efforts are undermined by such simple ignorance of the organism.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27883232 - 07/30/22 06:07 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Good insight Pasty, thank-you. I too sometimes forget to take the scientific studies with a bit more of a grain of salt, since as you mentioned, those who are conducting the study might not take into account important details that cultivators have learned by being involved for many years.

Just surprising and kind of shocking that there was such a drop in compounds/potency in 15 months. I wish they had gone more into the details of how they stored it though - Might have missed something, but I think they just mentioned zip-lock bags but seemed unspecific.

I'm thinking that it's possible that they could have achieved different results by taking into account - simple things like making sure the samples are absolutely cracker dry, storing with a desiccant, using a more stable container than zip-locks, etc. I'm not sure though - Maybe they really do lose 3/4 of there potency within a year, doesn't align with all my findings... hmmm


Edited by mistermushly (08/05/22 04:10 PM)


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly]
    #27883234 - 07/30/22 06:09 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Yes I agree it’s not in alignment with my experience either. Lots not mentioned. The amount of control it takes to execute something like this well is very high. It’s no shade to those attempting it but good science must be repeatable. I would like to see more attempts on this for sure.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27883297 - 07/30/22 06:49 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Thinking about the study a bit more... If you just let the fruits dry out in room temperature as they did, it's very possible that  they never totally dried out, unless the humidity is extremely low, which they didn't mention.

I have learned this by taking previously dried (from the dehydrator) fruits out of storage and leaving them on the counter for a few days -  they noticeably "bend" more instead of breaking which means they inevitably took on quite a bit of oxygen/moisture from the air around them. Should be noted that the environment I am in is less humid than most, as well.. also I wonder how much potency they lose sitting around at room temperature for days "drying" out, instead of a matter of hours at 71c in the dehydrator.

Not sure how fine a powder you could get by using a mortar and pestle as they did in the study. (I suppose it's standard, but sounds archaic - lol ) - My guess is that their "dried" samples weren't COMPLETELY dry.


Edited by mistermushly (07/30/22 07:09 PM)


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly]
    #27883329 - 07/30/22 07:16 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Yes mortar and pestle is a pretty poor way of grinding. Lots of issues to be picked apart in that study for sure. Improperly dried fruits are definitely an issue and ground fruit will absorb moisture even more readily than whole fruit will.


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27895729 - 08/09/22 11:07 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

APE all the way. Way more visual then other cubes like EQ. EQ is the only other strain I grew to compare with. It was way stronger. It is chronic fungus.


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Re: Temps and Potential [Re: PeyoteBoy]
    #27895799 - 08/09/22 12:05 PM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Many classic varieties like EQ were poorly domesticated with fruit size or spore production as the only real metrics being sought after. Due to the difficulties in quantifying potency it’s oft been ignored meaning many variants have been stabilized randomly in regards to that metric. However with careful isolation you should be able to find potent genetics in most varieties.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27924034 - 08/29/22 12:39 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Thank you for the post it definitely helped me out to wrap my mind around the whole potency subject, great work.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly]
    #27925058 - 08/30/22 12:35 AM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mistermushly said:
Good insight Pasty, thank-you. I too sometimes forget to take the scientific studies with a bit more of a grain of salt, since as you mentioned, those who are conducting the study might not take into account important details that cultivators have learned by being involved for many years.

Just surprising and kind of shocking that there was such a drop in compounds/potency in 15 months. I wish they had gone more into the details of how they stored it though - Might have missed something, but I think they just mentioned zip-lock bags but seemed unspecific.

I'm thinking that it's possible that they could have achieved different results by taking into account - simple things like making sure the samples are absolutely cracker dry, storing with a desiccant, using a more stable container than zip-locks, etc. I'm not sure though - Maybe they really do lose 3/4 of there potency within a year, doesn't align with all my findings... hmmm




Yea someone just took some shrooms of mine that are well over a year old and they had a great time


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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Ashtray161]
    #27926497 - 08/30/22 08:23 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

Stored properly psilocybin won't degrade. That is void of air, moisture and light. Room temperature has shown to be best for preservation. They can last indefinitely, for instance vac sealed with desiccant, stored in a dark place in room temp


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27933750 - 09/04/22 02:25 PM (1 year, 4 months ago)

People dramatically underestimate the variation in potency. Good post!


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: ReverendMyc]
    #28158093 - 01/26/23 09:56 AM (1 year, 1 day ago)

I've found drying on a furnace and later freezing the product works well.  Still good 6-8 months later


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: bonowzo]
    #28158443 - 01/26/23 02:07 PM (1 year, 1 day ago)

Quote:

bonowzo said:
I've found drying on a furnace and later freezing the product works well.  Still good 6-8 months later




That’s interesting cause I’ve seen studies that indicate that freezing temps can actually degrade actives faster than room temp.


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #28507178 - 10/16/23 05:30 PM (3 months, 10 days ago)

hmm interesting.
do you have any links to some of those studies?

im trying so save as much scientific data regarding actives as possible


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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: soppos]
    #28507774 - 10/17/23 06:36 AM (3 months, 9 days ago)



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OfflineKuroKitsune
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Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: SeaSalt]
    #28508861 - 10/17/23 11:26 PM (3 months, 8 days ago)

Quote:

SeaSalt said:
Both of us require higher doses than those who aren't prescribed any anti-depressants or anti-seizure medication.



It's worth noting that while in this case the meds would play a large part, effects can be highly variable among people not medicated for anything and on exactly the same dose of extracted or synthesised psychedelics. Some people naturally have at least 2x the tolerance of others, mentally and/or visually.


Edited by KuroKitsune (10/17/23 11:28 PM)


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