Home | Community | Message Board

Magic Mushrooms Zamnesia
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
A note on mushrooms and potency * 27
    #26878383 - 08/13/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Hi people! I’ve seen a lot of questions regarding dosage of active mushroom species over the years and I have to say that often the responses overlook some key aspects regarding the most basic of dosing metrics. While most of what I am about to say is common knowledge in the cultivation scene, much of it is completely misunderstood by the general public.

People are used to medications that come from a lab, have a guaranteed active ingredient content and thus no one concerns themselves with the notion the medication they took wouldn’t work the same if they didn’t have that guaranteed dose. But when we are dealing with mushrooms this is no longer as concrete, many factors can cause the potency to be other than what you may expect. Too often I see people dispensing dosage advice without any consideration of these variables. I consider this to be irresponsible and ignorant.

The first factor to consider is the species you are about to ingest. There are hundreds of active species with more being discovered. Different species not only have wildly different quantities of actives, there is some evidence that some species may contain additional alkaloids not present in others or in lower quantities. Wood lovers such as Psilocybe azurescens are confirmed to contain a compound called aeruginascin that may be responsible for a condition termed “woodlovers paralysis.” Trace amounts of aeruginascin have now been isolated in Ps. cubensis. New compounds are being discovered as well, the most recent I’m aware of was the discovery of norpsilocin which was isolated in Ps. cubensis. Other compounds are also being found where they are not expected such as the discovery of serotonin derivatives in all species in the Panaeolus genus. In addition to all of this each species has a range of potency with some species being many times more active than others. This means that it’s very important to at least know what species of mushrooms you have and have some understanding of what compounds may be present. It’s also important to be aware that the potency of these species can vary massively.

The next factor to consider is the specific genetics of the mushrooms in question. Potency can vary greatly within some species, especially within the most commonly cultivated species Ps cubensis. Ps cubensis can range from stone bunk to close to Pan cyan (a very potent species). This range is nearly impossible to predict despite some varieties in it having notable tendencies in regard to potency. This means that it’s not possible to definitely predict the potency of a mushroom grow unless it’s done with a clone or isolated culture who’s potency has already been evaluated. Any wild found mushroom or even a lab grown mushroom without that level of control will have a level of variation that has to be expected. This can be an issue in two ways; if the mushrooms are more potent than expected, lower doses will be needed for microdosing. Otherwise a person might still experience a much stronger effect than they desired; at that point a microdose could end up being a level one or two trip. On the other hand, if the mushrooms are stone bunk a microdose regimen will have no real benefit (other than psychological) and the person might not even realize it.

The third thing to consider is fresh vs dry. So often people get this confused. Fresh mushrooms (at least for most active species) are roughly 90% water. This means that 10 grams of fresh mushrooms will equal around 1 gram dry. 2 grams of fresh cubes might be a decent microdose for most but 2 grams dry will have most people feeling pretty pronounced effects. This can be greatly exacerbated with the issues of potency and specific genetics that I discussed earlier. To further muddy the waters some actives will be lost during the drying process which can result in weaker than expected dry fruit or more potent than expected fresh fruits.

Which brings us to the fourth point, and that is that how the wet fruit are processed and stored can also effect potency. Water is the means by which most of the oxidation or enzymatic reactions responsible for lost potency take place. Dry fruit is the only way to preserve the actives long term. Unfortunately old myths of heat destroying potency still about despite them have very little scientific backing. This means people are still fan drying or using desiccates to dry the fruits. These methods often result in much of the actives being lost and a weaker product. The goal should be to denature the enzymes and get the fruits dry as quickly as possible. Poor storage is also a problem, sunlight will degrade the actives and if the cracker dry fruits end up absorbing moisture from the air they can end up rotted and bunk. How we process and store the mushrooms will massively effect their potency.

So having said all of this I still think mushrooms have huge potential as medicine for people that they can access easily and find relief in. But we need to be aware of what we are working with, there is still much that is unknown about these life forms and we need to take care that our advice to people is done with a sense of harm reduction as being the main focus. No matter where you are sourcing your mushrooms be it the woods, the internet, a grow kit, etc, it’s important to treat them with respect. Erlichs can be used to at least confirm activity and care when dosing fruits with an unknown potency will ensure more people can get the relief they are looking for. Haphazard dosage advice is going to lead to overwhelming trips or missed opportunities.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleReverendMyc

Registered: 03/29/19
Posts: 1,494
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26878409 - 08/13/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Solid post. Sticky worthy or at least added to a list of good "teks/read me firsts" like the ones in the Getting Started thread.


--------------------
LAGM 2.024
Stoned Gummys tek (Gummies from sclerotia or mushrooms) *Not just for stones any more
How to succeed in mycology (and life) - know nothing, read everything, try something, and accept advice.
Don't Panic




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRapjack
Oat Soakin' Toker
I'm a teapot

Registered: 05/15/17
Posts: 483
Loc: Elsewhere
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #26878450 - 08/13/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Indeed. This could be a very useful sticky in Psychedelic Experience too.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 8 days, 5 hours
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26878818 - 08/13/20 03:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Good to see a comprehensive post about all that factors into potency!

I have been focused on potency personally lately, since I grew what I believe may be my first "bunk" batch. It was a golden teacher strain. One big fruit that measured 2 grams. It was frustrating to block off a big portion of my day and receive little to no effect at all.

A technique I sometimes use that I think is worth mentioning, is taking the entire yield of all your flushes if possible, drying, and grinding into powder. Then any potency differences in individual fruits will equalize. You and friends will be assured of the same dosage, as well as knowing what to expect when you take more from that batch.

So a targeted question to you Pasty, from what I understand from your post; without a ton of inaccessible lab equipment and expertise,  the Erlichs test is the only method at the moment to determine if there's psilocybin present ..  but it CAN NOT determine the amount, correct?

thanks for all you do, and all the knowledge you've shared!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #26880621 - 08/14/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Erlich’s cannot tell you the concentration. But it can confirm activity. I also worry about mushrooms as powder may lose potency over time. It’s probably not a big issue but I prefer to grow with known genetics (though I understand it’s not always feasible to do that).


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 8 days, 5 hours
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 2
    #26880867 - 08/14/20 11:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Erlich’s cannot tell you the concentration. But it can confirm activity. I also worry about mushrooms as powder may lose potency over time. It’s probably not a big issue but I prefer to grow with known genetics (though I understand it’s not always feasible to do that).




So I take it there's no current ( citizen scientist style ) way to test the levels of psilocybin and Psilocin? I'm sure that question has been asked a few times :lol: ... by "known genetics" you mean growing from the same starter ( LC, LI, or MS ) that you personally know and have tested? or trading with friends that can vouch for potency when trading prints or something? or just growing strains that are reliable (if there is such a thing) like PE maybe? So far I have been just focusing on grow speed, and yield -  maybe I've been lucky until now - wasn't considering growing batches of lame-ass Bunk shrooms :rolleyes:


... You are by far the expert, though I had great success drying out shrooms to bone/cracker dry / magic bullet to an ultra fine dust / then storing them in a mason jar in the freezer with a few desiccant packs. Lasted 3 years like that and seemed still as potent as they were originally.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #26883094 - 08/16/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some people may be working on ways that erlichs can provide an indication of concentration. I should message those people and see how they are making out on that front.

When I say known genetics I’m talking about isolates or clones that have already be grown out and bioassayed. Starting from spores is technically a crapshoot although I do believe the lineage of a spore sample will contribute to “loading the dice” somewhat.

If you are having success with your powdered mush that’s cool. It’s your grow and harvest. I just have my own proclivities as do most hobbiests here.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 8 days, 5 hours
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26884117 - 08/16/20 11:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
When I say known genetics I’m talking about isolates or clones that have already be grown out and bioassayed. Starting from spores is technically a crapshoot although I do believe the lineage of a spore sample will contribute to “loading the dice” somewhat.





Thanks for sharing the knowledge and approaches, really helpful.

So from what I understand as the genetics get narrowed, so do the likelihood that similar potency will occur. I assume that the physical traits may not always correlate.

Speaking of your unique proclivities, are you comfortable enough calculating potency by narrowing the genetics down from a isolate from 1 or 2 generations of agar grows - then making an LC or LI ( that's been my approach) ... or are you digging deeper and trying to cultivate ( or trade/obtain )?  pure isolated genetics or something similar to a mono-culture?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: Pastywhyte] * 3
    #26943469 - 09/19/20 02:06 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I feel this could use a bump. So I made it a sticky :grin:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLittleBoard
Stranger

Registered: 03/08/20
Posts: 147
Last seen: 8 months, 25 days
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: mistermushly] * 1
    #26945609 - 09/20/20 07:12 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mistermushly said:
... You are by far the expert, though I had great success drying out shrooms to bone/cracker dry / magic bullet to an ultra fine dust / then storing them in a mason jar in the freezer with a few desiccant packs. Lasted 3 years like that and seemed still as potent as they were originally.



If you grind them into fine dust and want to store that long term you might as well make it into chocolate and put that into the freezer. That's how most my older flushes ended up and I'd be surprised if there was any noticeable potency loss over years. It's dark, no oxygen can get to it and it's frozen.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemistermushly

Registered: 01/11/20
Posts: 192
Last seen: 8 days, 5 hours
Re: A note on mushrooms and potency [Re: LittleBoard] * 1
    #26946555 - 09/20/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LittleBoard said:
Quote:

mistermushly said:
... You are by far the expert, though I had great success drying out shrooms to bone/cracker dry / magic bullet to an ultra fine dust / then storing them in a mason jar in the freezer with a few desiccant packs. Lasted 3 years like that and seemed still as potent as they were originally.



If you grind them into fine dust and want to store that long term you might as well make it into chocolate and put that into the freezer. That's how most my older flushes ended up and I'd be surprised if there was any noticeable potency loss over years. It's dark, no oxygen can get to it and it's frozen.




I think chocolate could be a nice delivery method and a fun thing to share with others...

don't mean to stray away too far from what I believe the original intent of this post is... About understanding and measuring dosage - not necessarily preserving dosage. It's great info as using mush is reaching a wider audience at the current moment, the knowlege of potency as well as terms thrown around like "micro-dosing" etc. are being frequently misunderstood. Pasty covers some really key things about different types ( Cube, cyan, etc. ) having different potentiates and the often overlooked fact that the average person consuming doesn't realize the variability in potency that can happen from shoom to shoom even from the same flush etc.

What I was trying to get at mostly with my responses is asking if there is a way these days to actually measure the amount of active compounds (psilocybin, psilocin, etc). if not, I think the best solution for me is to consider the guidelines Pasty outlined, with this in mind ! personally grind them up to a powder and mix to help ensure an even dosage of that particular batch. I think that's the best you can do without being able to measure the actual strength.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFlufferNutter
Nerd Extraordinaire
Male


Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 140
Loc: Shadow of the District
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26946654 - 09/20/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

What are your thoughts on fruiting temps and the potency of Cubes? Reading all of the vague references, conflicting info, and personal experiences put out as fact out there, I've felt for a long time that the length of time the fruit bodies form, from primordia to maturity(?sporulation?Spore formation?), is the largest contributing factor to maximising potential alkaloid content, which I'm assuming is determined by genetics. (Special substrate ingredients being endlessly debated and, as far as I can tell, more or less disproven as a necessity for full potential.)
 
  The length of maturation also being affected by genetics in the case of the PE variants and mutants, which just seem to keep going past the point other cubes would have sporulated. That quality is also accentuated by the naturally solid stems, but growing common cubes in colder ambient cause meaty stems too.
  Does the fact that a lot of PE and variants do not produce spores, the biological trigger to shift function being absent, contribute to them being so very different in potential potency than more common varieties? Because a cube is a cube, right? Until it's not....the only factor that seems to be the common denominator with 'strong' cubes, all things being equal? As far as I can tell, How long they grew on the block.
 
  Granted, it's all anecdotal, but its always seemed to me that the slow growing fruits, be it caused by genetics or ambient temps, have always packed that extra punch, and I've always strived for that. Back at my old place I kinda stuck the big fruiting runs to the colder months, if possible. There definitely were runs of a few plates that the fruits took FOREVER to finish, despite ideal ambient, etc, and those usually ended up being kick ass. (Hindsight is always 20/20. possible great cultures lost due to lack of 20/20 vision)

  Obviously, controlling fruiting temps is not on most peoples "can do" list, which is the case for me, and this is all just thinking out loud. Important to add, as far as other actives and their growth patterns, I only have hands-on experience with cubes, so I am far less versed in the wider fungal cultivation universe than many, and my rationale is specifically concerning cubes. I would love to hear more experienced myco-wranglers' thoughts...


Edited by FlufferNutter (09/20/20 06:25 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: FlufferNutter] * 2
    #26946665 - 09/20/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Personally I don’t buy that cool temps make for more potent cubes, certainly it affects their stature and maturation speed but I haven’t really seen anything that made me think cool temps increased potency while warm temps decreased it. It’s more about the genetics.

PE and it’s variants do produce spores, they simply don’t eject them. If they didn’t produce spores at all they would eventually be extinct.

If I want potent fruit I prefer to hunt for potent genetics. Temps has more to do with timelines and contam control than potency IMO.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFlufferNutter
Nerd Extraordinaire
Male


Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 140
Loc: Shadow of the District
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26947838 - 09/21/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Right on!
  I appreciate the feedback Pasty! The nerd in me wishes it were easier to get things like this analyzed. Although, the dirth of experience from cats such as yourself is likely just as informative.

It just seems like, because of the status of them and real deal analytics just arent feasible, it leaves a lot of unanswered questions, scientifically speaking. In the end, a lot of them are essentially moot points, but it would be cool to have the numbers. Meh...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineChurchill_85
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/29/20
Posts: 53
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: FlufferNutter] * 1
    #26971102 - 10/05/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Nice discussion guys!

Is there a updated information on how to properly dry and storage the mushrooms?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Churchill_85] * 1
    #26971135 - 10/05/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Despite all my anecdotes I too wish for hard numbers or the ability to even submit samples for analysis. Maybe one day I’ll be able to answer questions without a caveat.

Get them dry as fast as possible. Store in an airtight container for long term. Many people like a dehydrator for ease of access and use.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemaniac1886
Stranger
Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 170
Loc: United States
Last seen: 1 day, 3 hours
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26971151 - 10/05/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If I want potent fruit I prefer to hunt for potent genetics. Temps has more to do with timelines and contam control than potency IMO.





How exactly do you go about doing this outside of eating some to see if they are more/less potent.  At that point they are either dry or consumed.  How can you identify potent genetics?

Is it a matter of working with various monoculture until you find a particularly potent batch, then clone a fruit or label that particular culture?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
Say hello to my little friend
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,807
Loc: Canada Flag
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: maniac1886] * 1
    #26971211 - 10/05/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yep you just gotta eat some and catalogue your cultures accordingly.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineverum subsequentis
seeker of truth
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 03/22/16
Posts: 8,732
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #26974092 - 10/07/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

solid post, brother


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleNecroMyce
Mostly Ghostly
I'm a teapot


Registered: 05/12/13
Posts: 747
Re: Temps and Potential [Re: verum subsequentis] * 1
    #27015526 - 11/01/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Following and book marking. I didn’t even know,”Wood lovers paralysis” even existed. Pretty fascinating! Because of everything you listed and what I believe is responsible with any drug. I start really small, and work my way up, for mushrooms I usually do .5g or 1g and then work my way up on different occasions by .5-1gram more. I’ve had people in the past tell me, “you need to take 4g to have visuals and really blast off.” Then I decided to take 2 g instead and have a amazing time still.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract


Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: geokills, veggie, LogicaL Chaos, Pastywhyte
20,313 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.027 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 15 queries.