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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26869449 - 08/08/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's possible to have a healthy relationship with benzos
All I can tell you is until you get off them, completely (like for months), and allow them to get 100% out of your system, you will have no idea the full extent of how they were affecting you physically, as well as mentally. Sleep cycles, brain chemicals, mood, they affect everything.
I can only speak from experience.
But if it's working for you and you think you need them, I can understand not wanting to change anything. I'm not here to judge, just know that they are probably affecting you more than you think. It's difficult to see the size of the box from within the box.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
Edited by Forrester (08/08/20 03:42 AM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Forrester]
#26869459 - 08/08/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I believe you. I really want to be stone cold sober all the time but at the moment it seems pretty difficult due to nonesense in my life. Seems worse to get really drunk or use a bunch of heroin or speed by far compared to moderate and occasional benzos.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 month, 11 days
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26869509 - 08/08/20 05:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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For sure, you'll know when the time is right for you and you'll be ready.
For me, and it's odd to say, but I'm glad I wasn't able to control benzos (or any other drug use - except alcohol), or I never would have gotten off them.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Vylie
The more you know

Registered: 03/11/20
Posts: 463
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Forrester]
#26869632 - 08/08/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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...
Edited by Vylie (02/11/21 02:12 PM)
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Vylie
The more you know

Registered: 03/11/20
Posts: 463
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26869637 - 08/08/20 07:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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...
Edited by Vylie (02/11/21 02:12 PM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Vylie]
#26875059 - 08/11/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I come from a country where benzos got a cease and desist for prescription back in 2002 or something. Now you can get a small amount for a period of difficulty with panic attacks or for plane flights but that's it no matter what the issue is.
Personally I would rather come from a country where they would allow you as many benzos as you want if it's what you felt you needed but that also came with a strong warning, and help tapering if you wanted to get off them. I find my country to be too authoritarian for my liking.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26875076 - 08/11/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Libertarianism is the devils work. We rather restrict people the potential of making mistakes than offer any possible good that may come from it.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,247
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26875109 - 08/11/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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How does libertarianism work into that?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26875210 - 08/11/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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canada limits benzos like that.
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26875928 - 08/11/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: How does libertarianism work into that?
Libertarianism in the sense of no victim no foul. Which would include policy towards drugs where if there is no victim there is no crime. Assuming a victim must be somebody other than the person doing the thing.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26876374 - 08/12/20 06:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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are you sliding towards the larger issue of litigation and court rulings?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,247
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26876521 - 08/12/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ahh, didn't see the sarcasm.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26879416 - 08/14/20 12:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: At the end of the day holding shit down is a perennial problem. Oft times if we put too much value in the dreams we receive from experiences had through psychedelics, or meditation, or chanting or whatever then it just pulls us out of the moment and then we forget our number one obligation. Which I think is just to follow your instincts and keep it together, let life take you where it will and do your best to be a good companion to it, the universe is always trying to get the message to you in some form I reckon. Whether you're in the gutter or reaching for the heights.
ah the danger of drawing a polarized conclusion, from one aspect of a matter under consideration.
Yes after insight comes daily work and more discipline, without which the insight just turns into another belief. but also, on the other hand- - for some a spiritual insight ( or just the over all experience itself - with no particular insight) often results in overcoming an addiction, instantly ! (many such stories) Also many other healing changes may last. Which of course all have great value.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog]
#26879538 - 08/14/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are stories like that sure but there are also stories of people chasing a never ending rabbit hole of self discovery and ending up cracked. And plenty of stories of people finding them very unhelpful. You tend to find the good ones on the internet of course, i come from a hippy town so I've seen plenty of the other side. It's a shame they are illegal as the experiences probably ought to be lead by professionals.
I don't really know why you say after insight comes discipline and daily work. It's a very bog standard answer that psychonaughts come out with. I think what's important is recognising that it was just an experience like any other. Then you can relax and doss around or do whatever you like so long as you behave with decency.
Unfortunately because of the power of psychedelic experiences people can draw all kinds of wacky conclusions about them and forget that the better part of wisdom is a continuum found in each moment, not in singular transitory experiences. This is the danger I'm referring too. Me pointing this out does not mean I'm saying they can't be transforming.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,247
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26879849 - 08/14/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
the better part of wisdom is a continuum found in each moment, not in singular transitory experiences
Nice!
There's a pull to throw some wood on that fire. If it's bright, can it be brighter? But it's not entirely intuitive to the mind, when one finds that less is more.
"Be still and know that I am God" to use a Christian phrase. Hard work and discipline is necessary, but what could be easier than that? 
There's an underlying discord in the individual and society... or is it surface level? What is underlying our existence? If the discord is deep, are we all traumatized or is that just a common human propensity for materialism, born with a carrot on a stick? Some of both?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26879944 - 08/14/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I like the shorter version of "be still and know that I am God"
"be still"
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26879993 - 08/14/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: There are stories like that sure but there are also stories of people chasing a never ending rabbit hole of self discovery and ending up cracked. And plenty of stories of people finding them very unhelpful. You tend to find the good ones on the internet of course, i come from a hippy town so I've seen plenty of the other side. It's a shame they are illegal as the experiences probably ought to be lead by professionals.
I don't really know why you say after insight comes discipline and daily work. It's a very bog standard answer that psychonaughts come out with. I think what's important is recognising that it was just an experience like any other. Then you can relax and doss around or do whatever you like so long as you behave with decency.
Unfortunately because of the power of psychedelic experiences people can draw all kinds of wacky conclusions about them and forget that the better part of wisdom is a continuum found in each moment, not in singular transitory experiences. This is the danger I'm referring too. Me pointing this out does not mean I'm saying they can't be transforming.
Sorry about all the sad cases you have seen.
"I don't really know why you say after insight comes discipline and daily work."
Well assuming there is some correspondence between enlightenment & tripping. I knew a meditation teacher who talked to precisely that point, saying that many think enlightenment is the goal but that actually it only shows one what one has to work on.
The biographies, of many zen masters, show this pattern, of continued study or work after an initial satori experience. In fact the whole system of hundreds of koans, has to do with deepening and expanding, the initial taste.
And if one has a psychedelic experience that is monitored by a psychologist integration and follow up work are not unusual.
But again, Sorry about all the sad cases you have seen.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog]
#26880043 - 08/14/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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He is very specifically teaching people to achieve moksha in a short space of time though. Not everyone wants that out of life, I don't think everyone need conform to that, and I don't think psychedelics are really about that.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26880108 - 08/14/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: He is very specifically teaching people to achieve moksha in a short space of time though. Not everyone wants that out of life, I don't think everyone need conform to that, and I don't think psychedelics are really about that.
are you responding to someone else...seems a non sequitur
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26880261 - 08/14/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Point is not everyone thinks life is about working on themselves.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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