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Invisibleredgreenvines
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The extrapolation thread! [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874904 - 08/11/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

talk about going beyond the bounds of reason!
stretch that point!


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26875333 - 08/11/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
philosophically the move to make is suicide.  Am I wrong?






That was my predicament; I practiced with an empty revolver and prayed "If there is a God I need to know it" and then like Wow! Welcome to my Nightmare!


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26875779 - 08/11/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's like being pelted with creeds seeking validation and vindication
(hence the violence on tv)



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26875802 - 08/11/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yellow Pants, I just want to clarify. I think you're saying that if someone is a materialist and an atheist, in essence a denier of spirituality of any kind, we would really have to call them, and they would really have to be, a pure nihilist. Now, I noticed you said that the logical endpoint of such a personal philosophy is suicide, although I must point out that such a statement is complicated by the rather lengthy debates we've had around here about Death Anxiety. (You can't blame the blackest nihilist for not pulling the trigger).

On the other hand, you may be suggesting that if a nihilist doesn't kill himself, he's a hypocrite. Maybe. In any case, nihilism is a very strong position, and if I am following you correctly, I may agree with the thrust of your thinking. Although I don't know if faith is the only alternative. Not to besmirch faith.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26875810 - 08/11/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

some of the history of life was gruesome.
things are kind of gruesome now too.


how do you want to see things, shapes what you see.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26875847 - 08/11/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yellow Pants, I just want to clarify. I think you're saying that if someone is a materialist and an atheist, in essence a denier of spirituality of any kind, we would really have to call them, and they would really have to be, a pure nihilist. Now, I noticed you said that the logical endpoint of such a personal philosophy is suicide, although I must point out that such a statement is complicated by the rather lengthy debates we've had around here about Death Anxiety. (You can't blame the blackest nihilist for not pulling the trigger).

On the other hand, you may be suggesting that if a nihilist doesn't kill himself, he's a hypocrite. Maybe. In any case, nihilism is a very strong position, and if I am following you correctly, I may agree with the thrust of your thinking. Although I don't know if faith is the only alternative. Not to besmirch faith.




I would agree that to be an atheist is to necessarily be a nihilist.  Yet the coping mechanism to this would be materialism and hedonism.  To find "meaning" in the pursuits of the world. 

Because to reject the possibility of absolute meaning that John Doe cannot know for sure that anything has any purpose at all.  But to say that it can be found experientially in hedonism and materialism is an adequate move IF you can make it. 

I am trying to say that IF hedonism is tabbed unbecoming AND god is not a thing in whatever sense John Doe conceives it, then I don't see how a person can continue to allow themselves to exist without being a contradiction unto themselves.  If rationality is in store then suicide must be the logical move to make.

So yes, if a nihilist doesn't kill themselves they are hypocritical if they assert that materialism in some sense is bankrupt which I would elaborate as being futile.

Death anxiety is interesting and may shed some light on it.  What would that have to do with this situation ?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26875850 - 08/11/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I see. I think Death Anxiety ties into it because it, in the vast majority of cases, prevents the type of person you describe from killing himself. Even if the unpleasantness of utter emptiness and infinite futility may be very great, the unpleasantness of ending oneself is usually greater.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26875908 - 08/11/20 08:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

To the theist death anxiety must be irrelevant.  Just look at the folks who are willing to burn themselves alive in the streets to appease and make due to their god.  Its all fine.  But the hedonist probably does get a little anxious if he isn't a believer.  Yet its fine as long as he can enjoy himself. 

As an atheist who rejects hedonism this is where there is a problem.  You are a contradiction effectively.  This is the concern. 

It is not a overtly fantastic statement I am trying to make, but I do think it holds.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26876332 - 08/12/20 05:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

purgatory!
hell and damnation.

(I think these are infections, plagues)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26876515 - 08/12/20 08:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Elif Shafak - The Architect’s Apprentice – re Jahan, “Little did he know, back then, that the worth of one’s faith depended not on how solid and strong it was, but on how many times one would lose it and still be able to get it back.”




this is an interesting quote about faith as a mental faculty that makes other mental faculties run more smoothly.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26876527 - 08/12/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think the fear of death is irrelevant to very few, theist or not.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26876621 - 08/12/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

it is in a class of it's own, as in HARDWIRED fear,
as might be opposed to LEARNED fear, or acquired fear.

I am not sure why people make such a big deal about it.
something hardwired, cannot be reprogrammed while an acquired fear can be.

Some may be inclined to declare those who seem unafraid of death as heroes. I think that is misguided.

In the meantime some youngsters with cancer are dying right now, showing both bravery and fear while suffering pain and loneliness. This is the best example I can think of where bravery exceeds the norm.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26876718 - 08/12/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
if no religion is involved I would not call any mental posture "faith".

people could have informed opinions and may take them for certainty the same way that religious people have faith.

personally, certainty is never a given, but action without assumptions does not get very far.




Not sure about that. I tend to use words very loosely compared to most but I think faith and self belief basically amount to the same thing. Just having that confidence in yourself that you can go out there and dream big and smash it in life and love is what I would call faith. Faith is adopting the mentality of "yeah I can do it, I can walk this tight rope of life". I'd say basically everyone has it on a spectrum.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Just chat your fraff
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26876931 - 08/12/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

if you have faith, you do not make yourself double check, so you get by faster with less worry.

this is what I mean.

sometimes checking is better.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26877054 - 08/12/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with that. Have faith in your doubt so to speak. A lot of it is being able to drop ideas and feelings and pick them up again with ease.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26877094 - 08/12/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

a prehensile mind like an elephant's trunk


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26877104 - 08/12/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Had to look up the meaning of that one :lol: I like the metaphor.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26877173 - 08/12/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

slurrrp...


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26878635 - 08/13/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think the fear of death is irrelevant to very few, theist or not.




Like redgreenvines said it is hardwired but I was thinking in terms of consciousness.  We have hardwired impulses all the time that are overridden.  To a theist death anxiety is received differently than an atheist.  Not speaking to you specifically but I would think if death anxiety is so monumental it may be giving hints as to your state of mind.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26878803 - 08/13/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I do not see it as monumental or important - I had many arguments with Icelander about his misplace belief in the importance of DA.

accordingly, even if theism makes it go down smoother, to me it is of no importance.


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