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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: qman]
#26873032 - 08/10/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said: Let's discuss the actual legality of what happened to Floyd.
The cop approached and detained Floyd for questioning. He is legally allowed to do this. The first thing he asked to see was Floyd's hands. This is a reasonable request. He had to ask Floyd like 5 times before he showed his hands, which is why he pulled the gun out.
This is from Minneapolis's government website relating to what falls under, "Use of Force" and qualifies for arrest:
5-300 Use of Force 5-301 PURPOSE (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (07/28/16)
A. Sanctity of life and the protection of the public shall be the cornerstones of the MPD’s use of force policy. B. The purpose of this chapter is to provide all sworn MPD employees with clear and consistent policies and procedures regarding the use of force while engaged in the discharge of their official duties. (Note: MPD Training Unit Lesson Plans – Use of Force, are used as a reference throughout this chapter.) 5-301.01 POLICY (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
Based on the Fourth Amendment’s “reasonableness” standard, sworn MPD employees shall only use the amount of force that is objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances known to that employee at the time force is used. The force used shall be consistent with current MPD training.
5-302 USE OF FORCE DEFINITIONS (10/16/02) (10/01/10) (Skipping a few on the list. Feel free to check the site out.)
...Active Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
...Passive Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.
Floyd was legally detained for questioning, refused to show his hands after being asked multiple times, this resulted in escalation on the part of the police. The police also got the tip that Floyd was likely drunk or on drugs and they ran his license plates so they likely had his criminal history.
The only real question left is, was it unlawful for the police officer to ask Floyd to show his hands during his detainment? Detainment is legal and if you don't comply with officers when detained, they are legally able to exercise Use of Force on you to get you to comply.
As far as I can tell, you have the right to remain silent, but do you have the right to not show the officer your hands when asked while detained?
Legally, am I missing anything here?
The only part of the entire encounter that I find to be upsetting is the knee on the neck. I don't see how legally anything was done wrong, but I'm willing to amend my position if someone can prove otherwise, legally.
This is all secondary to me though, I already made my main point which still stands: None of this was about race.
EDIT: Youtube removed the video footage from "Trending" even though it has like 5 million views now. As usual if actual evidence doesn't support their narrative they are trying to create they hide the evidence.
Wrong, the police can't legally detain citizens for questioning, where do you think we live? In North Korea.
Also, citizens that haven't committed a crime don't legally have to show their hands, that is a request, not a lawful order unless it's an arrest.
Floyd's detainment wasn't legal, he had committed no crime and hadn't been accused of a crime. A few minutes before his death, one of the cops said he was under arrest for forgery. That was a made up charge to cover their asses.
So what are you missing here? You're make huge assumptions about what is legal and what isn't. Yes, the police constantly violate rights, so you're just assuming it's legal. The cops fucked up every aspect of this case.
When is detainment legal? I've been detained for far less.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26873079 - 08/10/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you knew your rights you would have been better off then
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26873361 - 08/10/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said: Let's discuss the actual legality of what happened to Floyd.
The cop approached and detained Floyd for questioning. He is legally allowed to do this. The first thing he asked to see was Floyd's hands. This is a reasonable request. He had to ask Floyd like 5 times before he showed his hands, which is why he pulled the gun out.
This is from Minneapolis's government website relating to what falls under, "Use of Force" and qualifies for arrest:
5-300 Use of Force 5-301 PURPOSE (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (07/28/16)
A. Sanctity of life and the protection of the public shall be the cornerstones of the MPD’s use of force policy. B. The purpose of this chapter is to provide all sworn MPD employees with clear and consistent policies and procedures regarding the use of force while engaged in the discharge of their official duties. (Note: MPD Training Unit Lesson Plans – Use of Force, are used as a reference throughout this chapter.) 5-301.01 POLICY (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
Based on the Fourth Amendment’s “reasonableness” standard, sworn MPD employees shall only use the amount of force that is objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances known to that employee at the time force is used. The force used shall be consistent with current MPD training.
5-302 USE OF FORCE DEFINITIONS (10/16/02) (10/01/10) (Skipping a few on the list. Feel free to check the site out.)
...Active Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
...Passive Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.
Floyd was legally detained for questioning, refused to show his hands after being asked multiple times, this resulted in escalation on the part of the police. The police also got the tip that Floyd was likely drunk or on drugs and they ran his license plates so they likely had his criminal history.
The only real question left is, was it unlawful for the police officer to ask Floyd to show his hands during his detainment? Detainment is legal and if you don't comply with officers when detained, they are legally able to exercise Use of Force on you to get you to comply.
As far as I can tell, you have the right to remain silent, but do you have the right to not show the officer your hands when asked while detained?
Legally, am I missing anything here?
The only part of the entire encounter that I find to be upsetting is the knee on the neck. I don't see how legally anything was done wrong, but I'm willing to amend my position if someone can prove otherwise, legally.
This is all secondary to me though, I already made my main point which still stands: None of this was about race.
EDIT: Youtube removed the video footage from "Trending" even though it has like 5 million views now. As usual if actual evidence doesn't support their narrative they are trying to create they hide the evidence.
Wrong, the police can't legally detain citizens for questioning, where do you think we live? In North Korea.
Also, citizens that haven't committed a crime don't legally have to show their hands, that is a request, not a lawful order unless it's an arrest.
Floyd's detainment wasn't legal, he had committed no crime and hadn't been accused of a crime. A few minutes before his death, one of the cops said he was under arrest for forgery. That was a made up charge to cover their asses.
So what are you missing here? You're make huge assumptions about what is legal and what isn't. Yes, the police constantly violate rights, so you're just assuming it's legal. The cops fucked up every aspect of this case.
When is detainment legal? I've been detained for far less.
Reasonable suspicion that a crime has already occurred. Suspicion itself isn't a crime.
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
Loc: Portland
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: qman]
#26873523 - 08/10/20 02:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Like using fake money and public intoxication?
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Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26873535 - 08/10/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah if Vahn had fake money and was drunk in public I'm sure he would've had someone kneel on his kneck for almost 9 minutes when Vahn is begging for help as he's slowly and torturously taking his last labored breaths. I'm sure that is a totally appropriate response to public intox and a fake 20$ bill
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
Edited by Seriously_trippin (08/10/20 03:06 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26873541 - 08/10/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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He doesn't have a prior record tho so he couldn't have gotten that treatment. The prior record was what sealed the deal. Or I think that's maybe what I got out of vahn's posts
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26873546 - 08/10/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said: Like using fake money and public intoxication?
I don't believe that was ever established. Passing a fake bill isn't a crime unless you can prove it was intentional. The police usually just request you tell them where you got the bill in the first place, but you don't even have to talk to the cops.
As far as public intoxication is concerned, that was a secondary charge, correct? He was already in cuffs when it SEEMED he was intoxicated. You can't make up that charged after the fact, it doesn't work that way.
The fact that a cop states 'forgery' is the arrest charge 15 minutes after the cuffing is very telling. The cops illegally detained him and then decided some arbitrary charge like they usually do.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: qman]
#26873555 - 08/10/20 03:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Public intoxication? I guess i forgot that having a cop kneel on your neck for the better part of 10 minutes was part of a field sobriety test.
How can you conclude public intoxication before administering a test to confirm it?
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: natedawgnow]
#26873594 - 08/10/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
natedawgnow said: Public intoxication? I guess i forgot that having a cop kneel on your neck for the better part of 10 minutes was part of a field sobriety test.
How can you conclude public intoxication before administering a test to confirm it?
You can't at all, that's why it's ridiculous to even mention that potential aspect of the case.
For all they knew, he could be mentally disabled, on prescription medication or just extremely nervous in the presence of cops.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: qman]
#26873635 - 08/10/20 04:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Exactly
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
Loc: Portland
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: qman]
#26873655 - 08/10/20 04:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said: Like using fake money and public intoxication?
I don't believe that was ever established. Passing a fake bill isn't a crime unless you can prove it was intentional. The police usually just request you tell them where you got the bill in the first place, but you don't even have to talk to the cops.
As far as public intoxication is concerned, that was a secondary charge, correct? He was already in cuffs when it SEEMED he was intoxicated. You can't make up that charged after the fact, it doesn't work that way.
The fact that a cop states 'forgery' is the arrest charge 15 minutes after the cuffing is very telling. The cops illegally detained him and then decided some arbitrary charge like they usually do.
In the 911 call, the clerk stated to the dispatcher that Floyd was both drunk and acting very strange and refused to give the cigarettes back after they confronted him about the fake money. The officers had certainly been tipped off on both accounts. They also ran the license plate of the vehicle, may have matched it with Floyd, and seen his past criminal history.
So you're a cop and you're told a former violent offender is on drugs and acting strange in public and you've been asked to check on him because he just bought some smokes with fake money. I think that's reasonable grounds for detainment? (I believe he would not have been arrested if he had cooperated, but people can argue that. And even if he was arrested, he would have lived to see another day. I know a few people that have been unlawfully arrested and then they go to court and it just gets thrown out.)
The officer didn't pull out his gun until he asked Floyd for the 4th time. (You can see his hand is gun-free in the reflection of the window.)
I am still struggling to see at what point up until the knee on the neck the officers did something wrong.
Edited by Vahn421 (08/10/20 04:29 PM)
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26873697 - 08/10/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
seen his past criminal history.
What does his criminal history have to do with anything?
I’m not even sure cops can do that. But it sure says a lot about you that they think they should be allowed.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: koods]
#26873699 - 08/10/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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The cops have taken people into custody with prior histories like having just done a mass shooting.
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: bodhisatta]
#26873702 - 08/10/20 04:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cops can arrest people for prior crimes? That’s not constitutional.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: koods]
#26873704 - 08/10/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I was just pointing out that despite people having just done a mass murder the cops didn't kill them back.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: koods]
#26873707 - 08/10/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think what he means is mass shooters with prior histories werent even killed upon police arrival. They get taken to jail unless they dieds themselves or initiate a shootout yeehaw
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: natedawgnow]
#26873709 - 08/10/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Darn. Too late
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: natedawgnow]
#26873712 - 08/10/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh yeah they get taken to Burger King
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: koods]
#26873779 - 08/10/20 05:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said: Like using fake money and public intoxication?
I don't believe that was ever established. Passing a fake bill isn't a crime unless you can prove it was intentional. The police usually just request you tell them where you got the bill in the first place, but you don't even have to talk to the cops.
As far as public intoxication is concerned, that was a secondary charge, correct? He was already in cuffs when it SEEMED he was intoxicated. You can't make up that charged after the fact, it doesn't work that way.
The fact that a cop states 'forgery' is the arrest charge 15 minutes after the cuffing is very telling. The cops illegally detained him and then decided some arbitrary charge like they usually do.
In the 911 call, the clerk stated to the dispatcher that Floyd was both drunk and acting very strange and refused to give the cigarettes back after they confronted him about the fake money. The officers had certainly been tipped off on both accounts. They also ran the license plate of the vehicle, may have matched it with Floyd, and seen his past criminal history.
So you're a cop and you're told a former violent offender is on drugs and acting strange in public and you've been asked to check on him because he just bought some smokes with fake money. I think that's reasonable grounds for detainment? (I believe he would not have been arrested if he had cooperated, but people can argue that. And even if he was arrested, he would have lived to see another day. I know a few people that have been unlawfully arrested and then they go to court and it just gets thrown out.)
The officer didn't pull out his gun until he asked Floyd for the 4th time. (You can see his hand is gun-free in the reflection of the window.)
I am still struggling to see at what point up until the knee on the neck the officers did something wrong.
People that call the police and give them some version of the events does NOT equate to the truthfulness of those events. I can call the cops on anybody and make up a story, that doesn't mean that person should be detained for a crime. The police need to investigate the scene and then conclude a crime took place before they detain someone, they did NOT do that.
I will admit, it's difficult to follow the law and not violate citizens rights, and still arrest people for crimes. But guess what? That's too fucking bad.
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MagicMush123
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: koods]
#26873877 - 08/10/20 06:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said:
Quote:
seen his past criminal history.
What does his criminal history have to do with anything?
I’m not even sure cops can do that. But it sure says a lot about you that they think they should be allowed.
What Vince vahn doesn't realize is that they didn't know who floyd was until he identified himself when he was cuffed sitting agianst a wall
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