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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26872196 - 08/09/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If someone were to say that the earth was not overpopulated I would react with suspicion.  Not that I know the answer but Jesus, c’mon, its likely on the overpopulated side.  I assume that’s why we’re trying to go to Mars.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26872213 - 08/09/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

.    From the point of view of the virus (Covid-19) the more humans the merrier.
.    From the point of view of the politicians, who start wars (but don't send their own sons), the more poor young, uneducated men, - which it takes lots of folks, to clothe and feed, the more humans the merrier.
.    From the point of view of all the species going extinct, no humans would be best. Just look at the chernobyl exclusion zone, and the proliferation of wildlife.

.    It all depends on point of view. There is no right answer.

.    And for all the other Kazillions of galaxies, stars, planets and atoms, and quarks and eternty, it doesn't matter one little bit one way or the other.


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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26872712 - 08/10/20 04:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There is no such thing as an overpopulation problem. There is a resource and space management problem that results from our travels thus far through different forms of dominator culture styles of social and economic governance.

If you think there's an over population problem consider Mexico City vs the never ending planes of the entirety of middle America.

We have enough resources to food clothe and house all humans, and the space to do it. We don't have an economic or governmental circumstance that would allow for it to happen, though.


If you think capitalism is inevitable or even just, like, a good thing we should keep doing, then in that way there could be what seems to be an overpopulation problem, but I don't.


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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:


Edited by LSDXM (08/10/20 04:46 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: LSDXM]
    #26872727 - 08/10/20 05:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

are you recommending suburbs take over the desert?


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26872742 - 08/10/20 05:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No suburbs when there's no city.

Using the outcomes of a failed system does not a new system build.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: LSDXM]
    #26872896 - 08/10/20 08:44 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Point taken. I'll believe it when I see it.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26872897 - 08/10/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
No suburbs when there's no city.

Using the outcomes of a failed system does not a new system build.





Exactly. If the foundations of the current system are rotten, it doesn't help much to try to tweak the surface layers.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26872913 - 08/10/20 09:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

wait a minute, are you demonizing cities?

cities are fantastic for so many reasons.
a concentrating crucible from which new ideas and art emerge continuously.

problematic for plagues, but no civil construct is safe from plagues.

overpopulation remains a problem but cities are not a problem unless they need to have improved drainage, water supply, roads, schools, hospitals...


suburbs suck because you must use a car or get nothing done, and cars suck unless they become the new houses, and they get power from the grids and the sun... it is possible that future cars will exceed the benefits of cities, but I think both are likely to be more excellent.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26873050 - 08/10/20 10:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

.  There is no need for humans period. They are just another species that will mutate or go extinct, or both. Our personal opinions about how many people we feel we need around us to feel comfy are irrelevant, to the random flow of events.
.  That most folks are rather selfish, or IRS agents, or cops, or have a brother that works for big tobacco, (or something similarly unsavory) apparently escapes most folks when thinking about politically correct subjects. If folks didn't have skeletons in the closet, weren't fairly selfish, and were on the other hand intelligent enough not to be anti science, generous, kind, responsible, and mature - then the world would not be in the shape it is today.
.  It is blatantly obvious. In fact our fuzzy thinking on the subject simply proves the point, that homo sapiens is not much more attractive than any other ape, when it comes to personality, maturity, graciousness, or any other metric beyond superficial cleverness.
.  In fact anyone who looks at the phenomenon of torture objectively, must realize we rank the lowest of all lifeforms. (And the torturing of others has been practiced for thousands of years, on all continents, by all races, all cultures, & all peoples and even turned into a science). Only monumental arrogance, insensitivity, self importance,  general lack of awareness, and vanity allows us to forget the blatantly obvious.


Edited by laughingdog (08/10/20 10:50 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26873239 - 08/10/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think Krash Kharma was suggesting that we might be better off if the population were more diffuse. Then pineninja responded to that, and I responded to him. But the point is not really cities, suburbs or rural areas. And comparatively, even rural areas these days are much more populated than they were a hundred years ago.

I would not demonize cities, and I loved big cities when I was younger. These days I just sort of view them, at least American cities, as generic hives. All American big cities are basically the same now, and if that weren't the case, I might be less indifferent. Certainly places like London and Paris have their charms, but I think if one lived there they wouldn't seem too special.


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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26873716 - 08/10/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah and heroin has resulted in tons of great music, that doesn't mean it should be a foundational aspect of how our species lives.

Cities and (and capitalism) have many many amazing aspects that make them extremely desirable. They're also the reason for pandemics and famine and global warming and I could go on.

Do you think we're gonna go the entirety of human future-history without ever reevaluating our approach to habitation? Why not start now?

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think Krash Kharma was suggesting that we might be better off if the population were more diffuse. Then pineninja responded to that, and I responded to him. But the point is not really cities, suburbs or rural areas. And comparatively, even rural areas these days are much more populated than they were a hundred years ago.

I would not demonize cities, and I loved big cities when I was younger. These days I just sort of view them, at least American cities, as generic hives. All American big cities are basically the same now, and if that weren't the case, I might be less indifferent. Certainly places like London and Paris have their charms, but I think if one lived there they wouldn't seem too special.





I love cities for the same reasons anyone else does, but many aspects of them need to be changed for them to stop being as harmful as they are useful/enjoyable.


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:


Edited by LSDXM (08/10/20 05:11 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: LSDXM]
    #26873748 - 08/10/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes well I agree with that. Cities are some of the most toxic (literally and figuratively) environments on Earth, when you consider the whole globe, with all sorts of harmful things going on. When you consider the environment in which our species evolved, whether it's Calcutta or Manhattan, it's about as far from natural as one can get. And this does all sorts of things to one's system -- mind, body and soul.

So yes, I am very alive to the insidiousness of cities, cosmopolitan as they may be on the surface.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26873754 - 08/10/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The cities are the homestead where the rich love in comfort.

The burbs are where the help returns to at night after there daily service.

We keep repeating the same pattern...just continuing to scale up.

Now we have continents being served by others.


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OfflineSurfiingbird
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26873933 - 08/10/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yea it’s not overpopulated if you don’t mind living in the baron desert


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Surfiingbird]
    #26873952 - 08/10/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I look out on the ocean and see the potential for riding waves, diving beneath for wonder and potentially catching dinner....its my playground.

Some lookout and see a strip of annoying sand beyond which is a big giant lake of briny death.

Same space, differing expectations.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26873963 - 08/10/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Living in cities constantly is intolerable.  Need to go to the woods.  Similarly, living in the woods constantly when there are cities would be intolerable.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874214 - 08/10/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

.    This country is young, yet we have already had the salem witch trials, Mormon abuse of women, McCarthyism, CIA & Olie North & drugs for weapons in central america, that taxpayers wouldn't go for, the Bay of pigs invasion of Cuba, the invasion of Panama, and world wide support of dictators.
.    And the founders of this country came from Europe where public hangings, and beheadings were popular along with burning witches at the stake, just a few decades ago.
.  If there are future humans and they look back on the present time, they will be horrified, by factory farming, wealth inequality, and the murder rate, and of course the world wide use of torture, and displaced person camps, the persecution of Tibetans and Muslims by China, and drone strikes by the US. And of course the total inability, of so called intelligent primates, to deal with global warming.
.  Yes I agree, what we need are more humans, to eat more hamburgers, watch 'professional wrestling', watch boxing matches, and send their kids to college, to play football and get more tiny concussions resulting in brain damage down the road. Yes we are a great gift to the universe and planet, whether we are in the burbs or in the cities.
.  Everybody should reproduce like crazy--because remember your kids are smarter than everybody else's kids, and deserve more stuff.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26874262 - 08/10/20 11:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The earth is clearly overpopulated relative to our current technological and social advancement. If we were more advanced technologically or socially then we could sustain more people, but we're not (yet). Lucky for us, the population in most developed countries is falling rapidly, likely because generally when an animal species has a higher population than its environment can sustain, it's population falls. I think we're subject to the same basic rule, except that the population we can sustain is dependent upon our technology and the nature of our society.

Ancient civilizations, for example, could only support much smaller populations (and even ran into problems sustaining these populations) with the same amount of resources that we sustain much larger populations. What changed and allowed us to support larger populations was the development of technology (factories, civil engineering, cars/trucks/trains, systems of massive national and international trade, more efficient economies, etc. etc.) and our society. Now, once again we've reached and surpassed the limit of the number of people that our current level of advancement will allow us to sustain, and so naturally our population will decrease over time. This could all be turned around with the invention of new technology, or major social progress, but since we seem to be stalled on both fronts...


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Offlinedjbluntmagic
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: nooneman]
    #26874266 - 08/10/20 11:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
The earth is clearly overpopulated relative to our current technological and social advancement. If we were more advanced technologically or socially then we could sustain more people, but we're not (yet).



It seems to me we have more than plenty technological/productive capacity to provide for the existing population, but our present system of social organization isn't sufficient to distribute and deploy resources efficiently or equitably.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: djbluntmagic]
    #26874484 - 08/11/20 06:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

the benefit of an underground sewer system is boundless.


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