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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Theism as a potentially advisable move
    #26873230 - 08/10/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is faith, in the ultimate sense, an advisable movement to make? 

Because I am beginning to have some thoughts that keep me up at night in a cold sweat.  Basically they go something like this..

Uncertainty, in the ultimate sense, prevails where there is not belief.  Now it doesn't matter whether or not the belief is based in something verifiable.  To be uncertain or to believe are movements that can be done without needing to be true or right. 

When it comes to the ultimate questions, Life after death?/Where does the universe come from?/Purpose etc., one can either believe or be uncertain.  The problem I see with being uncertain in this sense is that it trickles all the way down into the mundane and ordinary.  If I do not believe ultimately then this status lingers underneath everything I do. 

Surely, there are reasons why humanity has concocted and rallied around fiction and story telling (religion) throughout the ages.  This is not a question of necessity.  Rather, is it simply advisable to have zeal.  Can good come from it?  What should one look out for?


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26873301 - 08/10/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Tulipslave said: Mere happenstance

Yellow pants says: fiction and storytelling (religion)

...


I don't claim to have the full story but thankfully I got more than them. Now what would be a reason for that?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26873450 - 08/10/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The problem with this dichotomy is that belief isn't certain. Faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin.

I'm fairly certain there is no life after death except in the obvious sense that other life forms will continue in the absence of one, and these forms are a tendency of reality. Even when all life expires and the universe evaporates the potential for it should remain.

Not understanding the details is problematic to the mind. :shrug:

It is a curious thing, how it all works, but if it results in suffering, is it working?

Some people feel "fairly certain" in their theistic comfort. Perhaps it's all just a way to working the mind to the same point of letting things be?


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rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26873454 - 08/10/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

the main benefit of religious groups is community support, not belief.

if you can tolerate a group, may as well join and it is easier when you die to get buried, easier when you live to get children educated and married off, and often it's a reasonable way to get help and pitch in to community. (I am not affiliated with any church or synagogue and can vouch for extra difficulties)

the beliefs of religious groups actually morph with the times with some lag but the purpose is more about community than mystic fulfillment. Mostly they are not into mind control but are into social services.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26873553 - 08/10/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As long as your country hasn't been conquered by Muslims or Christians. If it has - then its a whole different story.


Edited by laughingdog (08/10/20 03:23 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26873563 - 08/10/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Is faith, in the ultimate sense, an advisable movement to make? 






.  Of course asking this shows bad faith to begin with, ie. adopting 'belief' for ulterior motives of gain.

.    Secondly opting for certainty, instead of mystery, like for example Rene Magritte and the Taoists, shows a mind that is uncomfortable with its own imaginings and is in general fearful and lacking in confidence. Unfortunately this describes most of 'humanity'.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26873643 - 08/10/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

None of you think it is possible to have faith without religion?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26873654 - 08/10/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

if no religion is involved I would not call any mental posture "faith".

people could have informed opinions and may take them for certainty the same way that religious people have faith.

personally, certainty is never a given, but action without assumptions does not get very far.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26873893 - 08/10/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
None of you think it is possible to have faith without religion?




I am going to press on this specifically even though I've been chewing on other posts as well.

What I would say to you here is that I do not know.  But I will say that "faith" is not merely a psychological movement but also an emotional one.  To have faith ultimately is not just a mathematical, purely logical move.  John Doe can say that he believes in god and some random intricate meta system but does he really?  Does he have emotional substance, zeal. 

Me, I struggle to concoct emotion and in terms of asking the big questions I find that when I try to make the moves by myself that it is hopelessly bankrupt.  This is why I wonder about organized religion.

And another angle at this is why is it necessary in the first place?  Well if John Doe cannot find justification in hedonism and materialism, that he is not satisfied pursing just those things then he is forced into a religious confrontation.  And if he is not a believer he has a very serious problem.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874109 - 08/10/20 09:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do you think you've gone too far down the rabbit hole? Seems like there are two kinds of believers. Those who haven't, and those who have had a powerful experience with religious connotations they can't explain.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874231 - 08/10/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
... Well if John Doe cannot find justification in hedonism and materialism, that he is not satisfied pursing just those things then he is forced into a religious confrontation.  And if he is not a believer he has a very serious problem.




1) It would seem, hedonists (and materialists) don't feel a need to justify themselves

2) "he is forced into a religious confrontation" how so? seems an exercise for introverts,  & not an exercise for extroverted hedonists & materialists.

3) "And if he is not a believer he has a very serious problem."
Would seem exactly the opposite:
if he is not a believer then he is not afraid of hell or reincarnation etc. !

.  Seems your thinking is confused on all points, no wonder you feel troubled!

.  I would suggest some readings on the psychology of belief if I believed you would actually read such interesting material. But I don't.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Rahz]
    #26874450 - 08/11/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Do you think you've gone too far down the rabbit hole? Seems like there are two kinds of believers. Those who haven't, and those who have had a powerful experience with religious connotations they can't explain.




It does seem that way


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26874483 - 08/11/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
None of you think it is possible to have faith without religion?



this is an interesting point.
if someone grew up disconnected from religion and never were tainted by such concepts, then they might spontaneously develop something personal that is disconnected from any religion yet appears to look like faith.

however once labeled as "faith" it most certainly becomes ascribed to a religious connotation.

except in the case of having faith in oneself, or in another, especially as in faith in someone's ability to catch a fish or something.


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26874581 - 08/11/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Speaking of 'taint'; isn't that a derogatory label for any custom one personally disagrees with and carries a notion that one's company is tainted by persons of a different persuasion?

Naturally a Universe populated with objects would present one with objections that one can argue over without disparagement. However perhaps your attitude is correct and we can be sure that our company is tainted with the usual common filth.


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26874609 - 08/11/20 08:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If a 'bigoted' shoe fits your disposition then wear it with pride.


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26874643 - 08/11/20 08:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

In the presence of LGBTQIA 'Old School' is definitely past tense.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26874692 - 08/11/20 09:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

the battle over faith is a battle of conformance.

religion really means to reconnect, religare (lat. [in which ligare is to connect, like a ligament connects muscle to bone])

also, as mentioned above, story telling makes people connect so it is used in religions.

however as a tribal conformance issue, the argument about invisibles, and faith is invisible - becomes a political one, hence we have faith based propaganda, and faith based coercion:

"If you believed in the holy mother you would kill the infidel, but you did not so we must sell you into slavery. All extremely primitive and dumb.", for example (I made it up but it sounds like a line in several stories I have heard.)


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OnlineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26874793 - 08/11/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

By your example one may assume that you hold capital punishment to be a product of misguided principles.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26874840 - 08/11/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

i would be interested in how you came to that fascinating off topic extrapolation


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26874885 - 08/11/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
1) It would seem, hedonists (and materialists) don't feel a need to justify themselves





They don't.  This is what I am saying.  But if John Doe is not a hedonist or a materialist and those processes can never be enough then he is forced to look higher.  Either he looks higher or he becomes a walking contradiction.  Because if the pursuits of the flesh and only the pursuits of the flesh are unbecoming and he is an atheist then philosophically the move to make is suicide.  Am I wrong?

Or is there a great psychology book you want to share?  :lol:


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