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Offlinemrpharmacist
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My basket case first grow! (pics)
    #26869888 - 08/08/20 01:03 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

First grow. It was an old syringe (at least 1 year old and stored poorly).  Most of my jars presented with yellow moisture, then colonisation slowed and they began fruiting in the jars.  No bad odour, they smell mushy.  Decided to cut my losses and birth the cakes (nothing to lose).  Might as well learn all I can from this...

Currently soaking and going in the fruiting chamber tomorrow.  Would you bother rolling in verm?  Can I expect the existing shrooms to continue growing?  Any other tips?    If your answer was gonna be, "Start again!", then don't worry.  I've sourced some good spores and have 10 fresh jars made up.  :smile:















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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26869906 - 08/08/20 01:21 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

New syringe is definitely best and will probably fix some problems.. probably a bit bacterial.  how are you inoculating the jars with those lids?  Not seeing any holes in them... I’d maybe go with lids that have holes you inoculate through like in the original tek.  If you’re just unscrewing the lids and inoculating that way, you’re asking a lot of the verm barrier... especially with the courser grade verm you’re using.  I’d look into get fine verm for the barrier.

:popcorn:

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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26869912 - 08/08/20 01:25 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

It looks like you have contaminants but you already know that so I won't focus on that, if you see other colors besides yellow I would throw them away. From what I have read, the yellow are metabolites from the mycelium fighting off contaminants, but it is not "mushroom piss" as some people like to call it which is very inaccurate because it is more like an immune response than urination & can be grown and live without it whereas animals that urinate cannot live without ever urinating.

If you had other jars I would have tossed them out and started fresh but since you do not, I can understand you using them to learn more! I am no expert; I have read a ton but am a noob myself and just harvested my 1st tubs, so advice from trusted cultivators will be more valuable.

From what I read I would roll all cakes in verm after doing the 24-hour soak, the only reason not to do it is if you are low on funds and vermiculite and want to save it for good contaminant-free grows BUT if you are going to go through with this IMO you might as well try to do things the right way so you can build good habits and learn proper procedures.

I would expect those shrooms to keep fruiting since it looks like they are already growing now that you opened the jar. You didn't have the jar lid open long I hope? Once colonization is done they are more resistant to contaminants, but when my jars were done I opened them and immediately got them dunking in the water bath, then I covered them in verm and I put them in the grow tub (with perlite on bottom of course).

Generally, people recommend starting over if there are contaminants, but if you are going to birth these as cakes maybe it would be best to "spoon out" or cut out areas that have tons of contamination. I'm no expert and that might be pointless in this case or it might help, I am not sure, some people have recommended cutting off contaminated areas and some just say not to use the jar. Also, they are usually talking about mold, trich, and other contaminants.

Old spores will NOT make your jars contaminated unless there is something inside the syringe that was contaminated, but if you are using good sterile procedure of cleaning a syringe needle with alcohol wipes and using a lighter or lab candle to clean the needle that should not be an issue...From the look of your jars, they may be too wet? As a noob, I am not certain but it is a possibility. I had some jars that were too wet and some worked but they had a much higher contamination rate since water sucks up bacteria I think if a jar is too wet they can magnify our mistakes due to noob procedure. In the future, I'd make sure the jars are not too wet it made a big difference in the jars I made.

As a noob, I don't wanna say too much with certainty, but I am sure about this: I would make an effort to go over your sterile procedures for yourself and for pre-cleaning your work area, improving my procedures helped my contam rate big time. In addition to verm barrier suggested by fahster I would build a SAB (Still Air Box) ASAP if you do not already have one. Open-air inoculation is asking for more contams than using a SAB and you don't want to roll the dice. At 1st it is just fun to learn but supplies and time are both limited and valuable. I have made TONS of mistakes but it is important to learn from these mistakes  and move on so you can make mistakes on more advanced things and not the same things at the start. This is by NO means a criticism, you are doing a great job; this hobby has a lot to it and it is near impossible not to make mistakes along the way so EVERYONE makes them starting out it isn't that you are messing up any more than the next guy. But the advanced growers I observe on the forums here seem to have patience, persistence, and the ability to see their own mistakes and improve upon the techniques that caused them.


Edited by MrTinAZ (08/08/20 01:27 PM)


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: fahtster]
    #26871146 - 08/09/20 10:17 AM (1 month, 16 days ago)

I inherited those old jars and they do have x2 inoculation holes in the lid.  Hard to see in the pic (a bit rusty), but yes, I'm using the injection holes.  My new jars are a better size - around 400 ml (ish).  I've filled them up to the 350 line with a thicker layer of verm on top.  It's still the course grade stuff, but hopefully the thicker layer will do the job as barrier.  I'll use finer verm next time.  Thanks for the tip :smile:

The 'basket case' jars are now in the chamber, so we'll see what happens...

Mr P :smile:


Edited by mrpharmacist (08/09/20 10:44 AM)


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26871183 - 08/09/20 10:42 AM (1 month, 16 days ago)

Quote:

MrTinAZ said:I would expect those shrooms to keep fruiting since it looks like they are already growing now that you opened the jar. You didn't have the jar lid open long I hope?

Generally, people recommend starting over if there are contaminants, but if you are going to birth these as cakes maybe it would be best to "spoon out" or cut out areas that have tons of contamination




That pic was just a quick snap before they got dunked. The jar lid was only open for a minute.

Most of the yellow moisture (metabolites?) washed off under the tap.  There were still a few traces when I rolled them in verm today.  They're now in the chamber, so we'll see what happens... 

In response to your last paragraph, yeah I've been considering the SAB for future grows.  It might be a bit of work to construct, but it's got to be better than my current 'sterile shower' inoculation room! :lol: I've been bleach spraying a small shower room, and then entering 10 mins later to 'do my work'.  I was in there today making spore syringes from a new Thai spore print.  Tomorrow I'll go back into the clean room to inoculate my new jars.  I totally agree with you about embracing the learning and honing the sterile techniques. 

I believe I'm doing a good job... but the proof is in the pudding!    The SAB is the obvious next step in my evolution.

Mr P :smile:  :mushroom2:


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26871583 - 08/09/20 02:59 PM (1 month, 16 days ago)

you are doing great, I did open air on my 1st several batches of inoculations. Had some great looking jars but had to throw some out. Cleaning a work area is more work than cleaning a Tupperware and I don't wanna lose any more jars it is just an unnecessary waste.

There are some crazy glove box designs out there but luckily we  don't need something as complicated as a glove box, we just need a big upside Tupperware with some holes in it for our arms to fit. I have read it is best to have the holes slightly bigger than your arms because we don't want to rub against the edges and have bacteria from our skin or clothes knocked into the air.



This is a pic of a very simple, easy to build, effective SAB so you can see how easily they can be made, IMO we don't need to get caught up in making gloveboxes or in crazy bells and whistles for a SAB.


I want to make more jars but I am not doing more until I make my SAB. Just finished a work project so now I can finish harvesting fruits, and get to making one. I'd to build a HEPA work station but I need to walk before I can run.

This is the forum post by SpitballJedi with details about that SAB build, it is his creation not my own design:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20048771


Edited by MrTinAZ (08/09/20 03:02 PM)


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26872748 - 08/10/20 07:44 AM (1 month, 15 days ago)

Thanks again MrTinAZ.  That's great information! 

I have a good friend who bought me the 'Psilocybin Mushroom Bible' book to say thank you for a couple of mushroom journeys I facilitated for him.  My healthy supply of shrooms was dwindling and I'd been saying to him, "it can't be that hard to grow"...  and so he gave me the book, which was the nudge I needed. 

So this book has been my main guide, but is well supplemented by trawling through these forums, sharing my pics and receiving guidance from others.  It's a nice balance and I feel I'm now on my way! 

https://www.amazon.com/Psilocybin-Mushroom-Bible-Definitive-Mushrooms/dp/1937866289

Anyway, the reason I mentioned this book is cos the authors also put a lot of importance on building a SAB... so I know it's key.  However, the thing putting me off is the SAB in the book looks highly technical to build.  It's a full on design with wrist tubes and gloves on the end!  A little bit beyond me with my average DIY skills!  I'm one of those guys who only owns 2 screwdrivers and a set of Allen keys. :lol:

So, I was very happy to read about (and see) a more simple SAB design.  This makes so much sense.  I'll study SpitballJedi's post in detail and will get this ready for my next grow.

Cheers,

Mr P :smile:


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26873506 - 08/10/20 04:44 PM (1 month, 14 days ago)

yeah the glove boxes were popular in the past I believe, but from what I have read they can get contaminants trapped inside of them and have their own issues. They do have a place for certain things maybe, but for what we need to do they are harder to build and probably not even as good as a simple SAB, If it has gloves built in you don't need it =)


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26877781 - 08/13/20 03:15 AM (1 month, 12 days ago)

Not feeling too bad about this first attempt now.  Despite the presence of metabolites and possible bacteria, the caps are growing fast!  Four days in the terrarium and I picked my first 4 shrooms today.  The veil(s) had ripped away so seemed like the time to harvest?

Mr P :smile:



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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26880551 - 08/14/20 08:28 PM (1 month, 10 days ago)

yeah, I have been harvesting when the veil breaks, good job on your 1st grow! Also, I have had some veils that were broken and I was tired so I went to sleep and 10 hours later the caps were blackened and ruined (I think, I tossed them they looked nasty). They can go from "ready" to "ruined" reallllly fast. I am not an expert but from this experience, I think it may be better to harvest 8-12 hours early than 8-12 hours late if one had to choose. Harvesting when the veil breaks is perfect time from my research.


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26880961 - 08/15/20 03:25 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

So far so good.  I've been getting them when the veil breaks and they've unfurled.  It's amazing how fast they grow in the final phase to maturity.  I can see how going to bed and putting off till the next day could be the difference.

They're keeping me busy, that's for sure.  I've been harvesting a bunch every day!



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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26881321 - 08/15/20 11:44 AM (1 month, 10 days ago)

does the very bottom right cake have greenish on it? it is hard to tell from the camera what color it is for sure. If it is blueish it is likely just bruising from harvesting and nothing to worry about, it is normal. If it is greenish I would throw out the cake and hope it doesn't contaminate the others because green is likely Trichoderma mold. I just had a tub on it's 2nd flush infected with mold so I had to put it outside so it wouldn't mess up my house with mold spores that could at worst contam future grows.


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26882486 - 08/16/20 01:02 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

I think it's just the photo that is giving a hint of green.  It's blue bruising from a large shroom I picked.  I'm up to 250 g of wet so far after todays pickings.  Plenty more coming through so reckon first flush should be in the region of 350 g wet, and hopefully another 250 g from subsequent flushes.  I'll be pretty happy with 50-60g dried from my first attempt.

My new jars are looking tasty.  Strong mycelium growth appearing after 5 days.  Let's hope these colonise faster than the last batch which was using a 1-year old syringe and had some issues with the yellow secretions which seemed to slow them down so the jars didn't fully colonise. 

Onwards and upwards!  :-)


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26883065 - 08/16/20 11:14 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

sweet good job! If you get a pressure cooker you can try other types of jars in the future. Once you get the hang of things you can try growing bulk tubs if you want to, or you can keep doing cakes if you like.


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26884553 - 08/17/20 11:45 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

The pressure cooker was one of the first bits of kit I got.  I knew I wanted to go with PF tek, and everyone said it was essential.

I'm open to exploring other Teks in the future, especially spawning into a bulk tub.  Sounds like there are many teks to consider here...  how did you spawn your tubs?  I'd like to start with an easier method before trying anything too technical.

Mr P :smile:


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26885371 - 08/17/20 07:08 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

mrpharmacist said:
The pressure cooker was one of the first bits of kit I got.  I knew I wanted to go with PF tek, and everyone said it was essential.

I'm open to exploring other Teks in the future, especially spawning into a bulk tub.  Sounds like there are many teks to consider here...  how did you spawn your tubs?  I'd like to start with an easier method before trying anything too technical.

Mr P :smile:




Bulk spawning is really easy TBH, it isn't so much that it is hard but that if it gets contaminated that your whole grow is ruined whereas with cakes you can just throw out a contaminated cake. A lot of the knowledge required is stuff that builds on existing experience so once you grow successfully learning and trying new things becomes easier and easier IMO.

As much as we try to be careful, we are bound to make mistakes our 1st go-around.

You can make a really simple bulk grow, and just because it is "bulk" doesn't mean it has to be super huge. I did 1 that started with only 2 quarts of spawn, but the style is called bulk as opposed to cakes. My bulk tub mushrooms grew straight up instead of curving off the sides of the cakes so IMO they looked better too.

I did a couple of variations. On 1 tub I did perlite on the bottom with a black bag on top of it with the mycelium and substrate mixed together on it. Then on another, I did a tub inside a tub: the bottom tub had perlite and the top tub had the colonized mycelium+substrate mixed with the fruiting substrate. It worked great 1st flush but got contaminated simply because I didn't put holes in the tubs so there wasn't enough FAE by my fanning alone but I got plenty of mushrooms from the 1.5 flushes.

There are many TEKs on here for bulk tubs, you can follow 1 exactly, or if you feel comfortable enough you can borrow bits and pieces as I did but that can be riskier for us noobs so I recommend just following an existing TEK. Me not doing that caused me to learn a lot but I could have prevented my contamination if I read about the holes and FAE (I knew FAE was required but thought since I was home that fanning 3-6 times a day would be enough...it was enough to fruit but I believe my mold came from lack of FAE, lesson learned).

I don't think that bulk grows are any harder than cakes TBH, it is less about the difficulty and more about knowing the basics of growing and learning good sterile procedures, especially for making jars and incoculating jars. It is hard to eyeball mycelium and know if it is healthy if you never have grown but it gets easier every tub. I still have tons to learn and need a lot more experience but after doing 4 tubs at once (3 small bulk tubs and 1 PF Tek cake tub)I feel much more comfortable knowing what looks right and what doesn't or when things are dry and need misting and when they are too wet, etc.

You have NOTHING to fear in doing a bulk grow IMO, you clearly read the forums for the info to educate yourself, and ask good questions when you need to, so if you apply these things to another grow it will go great. The biggest thing is just being confident and not "helicoptering" over the grow trying to do too much. That got me into trouble at 1st but I got over that bad habit. I still check on my tubs like 6 times a day but simply to take the lid off and fan a few swipes and put it back, I no longer inspect and meddle with them multiple times a day. I take a good look morning and night when I mist, but the other times I just fan and walk away without spending too long there or messing with them.

If you are more comfortable doing cakes, by all means, stick with them! But I think that from what I hear from you that you are perfectly capable of doing a bulk tub. You could lookup TEKs for a monotub or SGFC (Shotgun Fruiting Chamber) and find some pretty simple ones, or others if they meet your needs, the key is just finding something that you feel confident doing.

Grain jars colonize REALLY fast and I really enjoy working with them, if I have extra I even eat the organic rye or red hard winter wheat berries. The organic grain I get is like 65-69 cents per pound so it is cheap and pretty easy to prep. You just soak it for 24 hours or a lil less, cook it for 10 minutes, and pour it onto a screen or colander and stir/jiggle it around a bit and the steam will naturally dry them! Then you toss them in the Pressure cooker and you are good to go! If you are not using self-healing injection ports then I imagine some vermiculite on top would be good too. Before you make the grain you can make some jar lids. I made SHIPS (Self Healing Injection Ports) but you don't need to do that off the bat if you wanna keep things simple. The last batch I made I didn't have SHIPs and they worked fine. I drilled a hole in the jar lid and put micropore tape over it (hammer and nail can work if don't have a drill). Then stick your needle through the tape to inoculate, and then put another piece of micropore tape over the hole immediately after inoculating. This will allow gas exchange but keep contaminants from going in the injection hole.

There are other good ways to do things, I am not saying these ways are the best, but it is easy ways to make your own grain jars when ready to make the jump from PF to other types of jars. When I spawned my grain jars I just crumbled them up with the substrate and spread it around the tub and saved a little bit of extra substrate to put on top. There is great advice on the forum but also some 10+-year-old outdated stuff that can steer you the wrong way but once I learned to look for RR's comments along with other trusted cultivators it got much easier for me to find out who to listen to. I still have tons to learn but following trusted cultivators has made things pretty straight forward for me. Once you know the basics of growing it gets much easier to try new things and learn more advanced stuff bit by bit that would have been hard at 1st.


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: MrTinAZ]
    #26892972 - 08/22/20 08:34 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Thanks for the tips MrTinAZ.  It'll probably be a little while till I take on a new tek as I'm hoping to move house in a couple of months and still have my second attempt PFtek to see through to fruition. My new jars are colonising beautifully at the moment.  They're looking much stronger than my first jars which were done using an old syringe.

More on my current grow in the next post...

Mr P :smile:


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26893007 - 08/22/20 09:08 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

OK, so update on my first grow.  The first flush turned out pretty good.  Ended up with around 350g fresh and they seemed to grow with vitality.

I did the second flush about 3-4 days ago and things ain't looking so good.  There are caps popping up, but they're not thriving like the first flush.  Also noticing a slight ammonia type smell.  It might not be ammonia, but it's changed from that fresh mushy smell. Definitely a smell which seems a bit 'off'.

I'm also seeing the following on the caps/mycelium:

1. White dusty coating over some of the small caps (see pics)
2. Some blackened caps and stems, where it joins the cake
3. A couple of gooey looking bits.

I suspect the yellow secretions in my jars were an indicator of a bacterial infection but it's only become a problem in this second flush.  Probably spurred on by the good soaking the cakes just had.

I'm ok with writing off this second flush as they're not looking great,  but I was hoping someone could comment / diagnose what they see in the pics?  I might as well learn / understand what I'm dealing with here.

The best I can come up with from researching the forums is "Psudomonas sp., bacterial blotch"

Thanks,
Mr P :smile:



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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: mrpharmacist]
    #26893278 - 08/22/20 12:47 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

I think you got it correct with the blotch and maybe some verticillium bacteria.. there’s a few salvageable fruits in that first pic.. definitely don’t give them anymore water.. they look too wet.. give them lots of FAE and you should see those fruits do better but I’d toss the rest.. you could make tea with them after you dry them in a heated dehydrator but personally, I wouldn’t risk it with such a small amount and possibly a horrible experience with some gut rot.

When you are fruiting substrates that you suspect have bacterial problems, you want to err on the side of dry.  Over watering is only going to exacerbate a bacterial problem.

Faht


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Re: My basket case first grow! (pics) [Re: fahtster]
    #26895690 - 08/23/20 06:44 PM (1 month, 1 day ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
I think you got it correct with the blotch and maybe some verticillium bacteria.. there’s a few salvageable fruits in that first pic.. definitely don’t give them anymore water.. they look too wet.. give them lots of FAE and you should see those fruits do better but I’d toss the rest.. you could make tea with them after you dry them in a heated dehydrator but personally, I wouldn’t risk it with such a small amount and possibly a horrible experience with some gut rot.

When you are fruiting substrates that you suspect have bacterial problems, you want to err on the side of dry.  Over watering is only going to exacerbate a bacterial problem.

Faht




Thanks Faht.  I've removed the bad cakes and just kept the three which had salvageable fruit.  They are fruiting nicely now, so I should be able to add another 50-100g fresh to my overall haul. Thanks for the advice on over-watering.  Cheers,  Mr P :smile:


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* Log of Second attempt at casing rye (PICS) jebus2000 2,323 13 11/11/01 02:52 PM
by TCatz
* Is This Casing Done Growing??????(PIC) Frothy 1,246 6 06/20/01 05:28 PM
by Frothy
* Casing question (pics) Idxactly 1,349 4 09/19/01 10:00 PM
by oscill8
* Rejected Casings (with pics) CaseXX 926 5 10/30/01 09:55 PM
by CaseXX
* Post deleted by Moe Howard bigidiot 806 5 01/27/02 05:55 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Re: Casing steps (pic) Lana 698 2 05/27/00 09:41 PM
by Anonymous
* First time growing (PICS) smachine 1,678 9 05/12/01 10:25 PM
by Todcasil

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