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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Theism as a potentially advisable move
    #26873230 - 08/10/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Is faith, in the ultimate sense, an advisable movement to make? 

Because I am beginning to have some thoughts that keep me up at night in a cold sweat.  Basically they go something like this..

Uncertainty, in the ultimate sense, prevails where there is not belief.  Now it doesn't matter whether or not the belief is based in something verifiable.  To be uncertain or to believe are movements that can be done without needing to be true or right. 

When it comes to the ultimate questions, Life after death?/Where does the universe come from?/Purpose etc., one can either believe or be uncertain.  The problem I see with being uncertain in this sense is that it trickles all the way down into the mundane and ordinary.  If I do not believe ultimately then this status lingers underneath everything I do. 

Surely, there are reasons why humanity has concocted and rallied around fiction and story telling (religion) throughout the ages.  This is not a question of necessity.  Rather, is it simply advisable to have zeal.  Can good come from it?  What should one look out for?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26873301 - 08/10/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Tulipslave said: Mere happenstance

Yellow pants says: fiction and storytelling (religion)

...


I don't claim to have the full story but thankfully I got more than them. Now what would be a reason for that?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26873450 - 08/10/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The problem with this dichotomy is that belief isn't certain. Faith and doubt are two sides of the same coin.

I'm fairly certain there is no life after death except in the obvious sense that other life forms will continue in the absence of one, and these forms are a tendency of reality. Even when all life expires and the universe evaporates the potential for it should remain.

Not understanding the details is problematic to the mind. :shrug:

It is a curious thing, how it all works, but if it results in suffering, is it working?

Some people feel "fairly certain" in their theistic comfort. Perhaps it's all just a way to working the mind to the same point of letting things be?


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26873454 - 08/10/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

the main benefit of religious groups is community support, not belief.

if you can tolerate a group, may as well join and it is easier when you die to get buried, easier when you live to get children educated and married off, and often it's a reasonable way to get help and pitch in to community. (I am not affiliated with any church or synagogue and can vouch for extra difficulties)

the beliefs of religious groups actually morph with the times with some lag but the purpose is more about community than mystic fulfillment. Mostly they are not into mind control but are into social services.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26873553 - 08/10/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

As long as your country hasn't been conquered by Muslims or Christians. If it has - then its a whole different story.


Edited by laughingdog (08/10/20 03:23 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26873563 - 08/10/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Is faith, in the ultimate sense, an advisable movement to make? 






.  Of course asking this shows bad faith to begin with, ie. adopting 'belief' for ulterior motives of gain.

.    Secondly opting for certainty, instead of mystery, like for example Rene Magritte and the Taoists, shows a mind that is uncomfortable with its own imaginings and is in general fearful and lacking in confidence. Unfortunately this describes most of 'humanity'.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26873643 - 08/10/20 04:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

None of you think it is possible to have faith without religion?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26873654 - 08/10/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

if no religion is involved I would not call any mental posture "faith".

people could have informed opinions and may take them for certainty the same way that religious people have faith.

personally, certainty is never a given, but action without assumptions does not get very far.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26873893 - 08/10/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
None of you think it is possible to have faith without religion?




I am going to press on this specifically even though I've been chewing on other posts as well.

What I would say to you here is that I do not know.  But I will say that "faith" is not merely a psychological movement but also an emotional one.  To have faith ultimately is not just a mathematical, purely logical move.  John Doe can say that he believes in god and some random intricate meta system but does he really?  Does he have emotional substance, zeal. 

Me, I struggle to concoct emotion and in terms of asking the big questions I find that when I try to make the moves by myself that it is hopelessly bankrupt.  This is why I wonder about organized religion.

And another angle at this is why is it necessary in the first place?  Well if John Doe cannot find justification in hedonism and materialism, that he is not satisfied pursing just those things then he is forced into a religious confrontation.  And if he is not a believer he has a very serious problem.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874109 - 08/10/20 09:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Do you think you've gone too far down the rabbit hole? Seems like there are two kinds of believers. Those who haven't, and those who have had a powerful experience with religious connotations they can't explain.


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rahz

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874231 - 08/10/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
... Well if John Doe cannot find justification in hedonism and materialism, that he is not satisfied pursing just those things then he is forced into a religious confrontation.  And if he is not a believer he has a very serious problem.




1) It would seem, hedonists (and materialists) don't feel a need to justify themselves

2) "he is forced into a religious confrontation" how so? seems an exercise for introverts,  & not an exercise for extroverted hedonists & materialists.

3) "And if he is not a believer he has a very serious problem."
Would seem exactly the opposite:
if he is not a believer then he is not afraid of hell or reincarnation etc. !

.  Seems your thinking is confused on all points, no wonder you feel troubled!

.  I would suggest some readings on the psychology of belief if I believed you would actually read such interesting material. But I don't.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Rahz]
    #26874450 - 08/11/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Do you think you've gone too far down the rabbit hole? Seems like there are two kinds of believers. Those who haven't, and those who have had a powerful experience with religious connotations they can't explain.




It does seem that way


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26874483 - 08/11/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
None of you think it is possible to have faith without religion?



this is an interesting point.
if someone grew up disconnected from religion and never were tainted by such concepts, then they might spontaneously develop something personal that is disconnected from any religion yet appears to look like faith.

however once labeled as "faith" it most certainly becomes ascribed to a religious connotation.

except in the case of having faith in oneself, or in another, especially as in faith in someone's ability to catch a fish or something.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26874581 - 08/11/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Speaking of 'taint'; isn't that a derogatory label for any custom one personally disagrees with and carries a notion that one's company is tainted by persons of a different persuasion?

Naturally a Universe populated with objects would present one with objections that one can argue over without disparagement. However perhaps your attitude is correct and we can be sure that our company is tainted with the usual common filth.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26874609 - 08/11/20 08:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If a 'bigoted' shoe fits your disposition then wear it with pride.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26874643 - 08/11/20 08:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

In the presence of LGBTQIA 'Old School' is definitely past tense.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26874692 - 08/11/20 09:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

the battle over faith is a battle of conformance.

religion really means to reconnect, religare (lat. [in which ligare is to connect, like a ligament connects muscle to bone])

also, as mentioned above, story telling makes people connect so it is used in religions.

however as a tribal conformance issue, the argument about invisibles, and faith is invisible - becomes a political one, hence we have faith based propaganda, and faith based coercion:

"If you believed in the holy mother you would kill the infidel, but you did not so we must sell you into slavery. All extremely primitive and dumb.", for example (I made it up but it sounds like a line in several stories I have heard.)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26874793 - 08/11/20 10:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

By your example one may assume that you hold capital punishment to be a product of misguided principles.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26874840 - 08/11/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i would be interested in how you came to that fascinating off topic extrapolation


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26874885 - 08/11/20 11:28 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
1) It would seem, hedonists (and materialists) don't feel a need to justify themselves





They don't.  This is what I am saying.  But if John Doe is not a hedonist or a materialist and those processes can never be enough then he is forced to look higher.  Either he looks higher or he becomes a walking contradiction.  Because if the pursuits of the flesh and only the pursuits of the flesh are unbecoming and he is an atheist then philosophically the move to make is suicide.  Am I wrong?

Or is there a great psychology book you want to share?  :lol:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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The extrapolation thread! [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874904 - 08/11/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

talk about going beyond the bounds of reason!
stretch that point!


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26875333 - 08/11/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
philosophically the move to make is suicide.  Am I wrong?






That was my predicament; I practiced with an empty revolver and prayed "If there is a God I need to know it" and then like Wow! Welcome to my Nightmare!


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26875779 - 08/11/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It's like being pelted with creeds seeking validation and vindication
(hence the violence on tv)



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26875802 - 08/11/20 07:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yellow Pants, I just want to clarify. I think you're saying that if someone is a materialist and an atheist, in essence a denier of spirituality of any kind, we would really have to call them, and they would really have to be, a pure nihilist. Now, I noticed you said that the logical endpoint of such a personal philosophy is suicide, although I must point out that such a statement is complicated by the rather lengthy debates we've had around here about Death Anxiety. (You can't blame the blackest nihilist for not pulling the trigger).

On the other hand, you may be suggesting that if a nihilist doesn't kill himself, he's a hypocrite. Maybe. In any case, nihilism is a very strong position, and if I am following you correctly, I may agree with the thrust of your thinking. Although I don't know if faith is the only alternative. Not to besmirch faith.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26875810 - 08/11/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

some of the history of life was gruesome.
things are kind of gruesome now too.


how do you want to see things, shapes what you see.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26875847 - 08/11/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yellow Pants, I just want to clarify. I think you're saying that if someone is a materialist and an atheist, in essence a denier of spirituality of any kind, we would really have to call them, and they would really have to be, a pure nihilist. Now, I noticed you said that the logical endpoint of such a personal philosophy is suicide, although I must point out that such a statement is complicated by the rather lengthy debates we've had around here about Death Anxiety. (You can't blame the blackest nihilist for not pulling the trigger).

On the other hand, you may be suggesting that if a nihilist doesn't kill himself, he's a hypocrite. Maybe. In any case, nihilism is a very strong position, and if I am following you correctly, I may agree with the thrust of your thinking. Although I don't know if faith is the only alternative. Not to besmirch faith.




I would agree that to be an atheist is to necessarily be a nihilist.  Yet the coping mechanism to this would be materialism and hedonism.  To find "meaning" in the pursuits of the world. 

Because to reject the possibility of absolute meaning that John Doe cannot know for sure that anything has any purpose at all.  But to say that it can be found experientially in hedonism and materialism is an adequate move IF you can make it. 

I am trying to say that IF hedonism is tabbed unbecoming AND god is not a thing in whatever sense John Doe conceives it, then I don't see how a person can continue to allow themselves to exist without being a contradiction unto themselves.  If rationality is in store then suicide must be the logical move to make.

So yes, if a nihilist doesn't kill themselves they are hypocritical if they assert that materialism in some sense is bankrupt which I would elaborate as being futile.

Death anxiety is interesting and may shed some light on it.  What would that have to do with this situation ?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26875850 - 08/11/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I see. I think Death Anxiety ties into it because it, in the vast majority of cases, prevents the type of person you describe from killing himself. Even if the unpleasantness of utter emptiness and infinite futility may be very great, the unpleasantness of ending oneself is usually greater.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26875908 - 08/11/20 08:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

To the theist death anxiety must be irrelevant.  Just look at the folks who are willing to burn themselves alive in the streets to appease and make due to their god.  Its all fine.  But the hedonist probably does get a little anxious if he isn't a believer.  Yet its fine as long as he can enjoy himself. 

As an atheist who rejects hedonism this is where there is a problem.  You are a contradiction effectively.  This is the concern. 

It is not a overtly fantastic statement I am trying to make, but I do think it holds.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26876332 - 08/12/20 05:56 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

purgatory!
hell and damnation.

(I think these are infections, plagues)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26876515 - 08/12/20 08:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Elif Shafak - The Architect’s Apprentice – re Jahan, “Little did he know, back then, that the worth of one’s faith depended not on how solid and strong it was, but on how many times one would lose it and still be able to get it back.”




this is an interesting quote about faith as a mental faculty that makes other mental faculties run more smoothly.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26876527 - 08/12/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think the fear of death is irrelevant to very few, theist or not.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26876621 - 08/12/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

it is in a class of it's own, as in HARDWIRED fear,
as might be opposed to LEARNED fear, or acquired fear.

I am not sure why people make such a big deal about it.
something hardwired, cannot be reprogrammed while an acquired fear can be.

Some may be inclined to declare those who seem unafraid of death as heroes. I think that is misguided.

In the meantime some youngsters with cancer are dying right now, showing both bravery and fear while suffering pain and loneliness. This is the best example I can think of where bravery exceeds the norm.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26876718 - 08/12/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
if no religion is involved I would not call any mental posture "faith".

people could have informed opinions and may take them for certainty the same way that religious people have faith.

personally, certainty is never a given, but action without assumptions does not get very far.




Not sure about that. I tend to use words very loosely compared to most but I think faith and self belief basically amount to the same thing. Just having that confidence in yourself that you can go out there and dream big and smash it in life and love is what I would call faith. Faith is adopting the mentality of "yeah I can do it, I can walk this tight rope of life". I'd say basically everyone has it on a spectrum.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26876931 - 08/12/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

if you have faith, you do not make yourself double check, so you get by faster with less worry.

this is what I mean.

sometimes checking is better.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26877054 - 08/12/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with that. Have faith in your doubt so to speak. A lot of it is being able to drop ideas and feelings and pick them up again with ease.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26877094 - 08/12/20 03:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

a prehensile mind like an elephant's trunk


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26877104 - 08/12/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Had to look up the meaning of that one :lol: I like the metaphor.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26877173 - 08/12/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

slurrrp...


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26878635 - 08/13/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think the fear of death is irrelevant to very few, theist or not.




Like redgreenvines said it is hardwired but I was thinking in terms of consciousness.  We have hardwired impulses all the time that are overridden.  To a theist death anxiety is received differently than an atheist.  Not speaking to you specifically but I would think if death anxiety is so monumental it may be giving hints as to your state of mind.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26878803 - 08/13/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I do not see it as monumental or important - I had many arguments with Icelander about his misplace belief in the importance of DA.

accordingly, even if theism makes it go down smoother, to me it is of no importance.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26878853 - 08/13/20 04:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I personally am not obsessed with death myself, my only point is that I think you're overestimating the influence of theism on it. Theists, imo, may not have, necessarily, an easier time with their mortality than others. That's all I was trying to get across.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26878902 - 08/13/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

There are many atheists busy living it up popping champagne bottles that are far more justified in themselves than some theists who are trying to appease a demanding lord.  You're certainly correct.

But IF Donald Trump cannot be a hedon then at least the theists have god.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26878918 - 08/13/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I personally am not obsessed with death myself, my only point is that I think you're overestimating the influence of theism on it. Theists, imo, may not have, necessarily, an easier time with their mortality than others. That's all I was trying to get across.





In my opinion a relaxed state may be more easily triggered in a theist, but anxiety of any kind can be ameliorated thru drugs & counseling.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26878952 - 08/13/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

not any theists I've met
although I am sure some few are saints


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26878980 - 08/13/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

People who regularly practice religion ime undoubtedly have a greater sense of security and general trust than those who don't on average.  Being chased by a tiger or the loss of a loved one etc. will trigger the standard response, but there is simply a foundation there.  They literally believe in god.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26879060 - 08/13/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some gods may have better severance packages; if you recall Jesus complained of being forsaken during his final moments.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26879081 - 08/13/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Unfortunately Jesus has cornered the market and in my neck of the woods He is the only Walmart in town.  But this is ultimately fine so long as He stocks some bananas and choice meats.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26879110 - 08/13/20 07:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Oh yeah? I enjoy some allegorical bible content, make of it as you will, for instance 'The time of the Gentile' might coincide with Arthurian legend where a split between Arthur and Gwenevere causes unbalance. Now who will bear Gwenevere's token in the jousts?


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26879124 - 08/13/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Christ, I have no idea.  :popcorn:


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26879137 - 08/13/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some 🎶 bullet headed Saxon mother's son🎶 I guess.

In case of accidents he always took his mom♫ : Gwenevere


Edited by Buster_Brown (08/13/20 07:28 PM)


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26879146 - 08/13/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

so, you find the godly people in your neck of the woods to be pretty chill.
that is a good thing.

not much fun walking on egg shells here with my unaffiliated family and friends, sometimes I think I should send them all to camp to get some religion.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26879153 - 08/13/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so, you find the godly people in your neck of the woods to be pretty chill.
that is a good thing.

not much fun walking on egg shells here with my unaffiliated family and friends, sometimes I think I should send them all to camp to get some religion.





Are you saying that you feel the Christ is pressuring you?

But yes, I find gods people to fairly "chill".  More zealous than chill.  Zeal is the greater move.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26879168 - 08/13/20 07:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Zeal makes for a commendable opponent.

"All is quiet on New Year's Day
A world in white gets underway
I want to be with you
Be with you, night and day
Nothing changes on New Year's Day
On New Year's Day

I will be with you again
I will be with you again

Under a blood red sky
A crowd has gathered in black and white
Arms entwined, the chosen few
The newspapers says, says
Say it's true, it's true
And we can break through
Though torn in two
We can be one

I, I will begin again
I, I will begin again

Oh, oh

Oh, oh
Oh, oh
Oh, oh

Oh, oh
Oh, oh
Oh, oh

Ah, maybe the time is right
Oh, maybe tonight

I will be with you again
I will be with you again

And so we're told this is the golden age
And gold is the reason for the wars we wage
Though I want to be with you, be with you
Night and day
Nothing changes
On New Year's Day
On New Year's Day
On New Year's Day"

U2


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26879404 - 08/13/20 11:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
People who regularly practice religion ime undoubtedly have a greater sense of security
and general trust than those who don't on average.  Being chased by a tiger or the loss of a loved one etc. will trigger the standard response, but there is simply a foundation there.  They literally believe in god.




Small people who believe in Santa Claus have a greater sense of security.

So what?  That doesn't make it a good idea, to hang onto such a notion, as if it were a great spare tire.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26879495 - 08/14/20 02:56 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
So what?  That doesn't make it a good idea, to hang onto such a notion, as if it were a great spare tire.




If it gives you a better, happier life, why not?

All we have here is our experience, which we create.  Why make it worse because someone has convinced us to?


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26879513 - 08/14/20 03:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I also find that people  who do not understand technology seem more jolly
that people who do not have a grip on mathematics smile more
that people who don't drive are happier
and people who cannot spell don't give a f*ck
people who disregard history believe in simpler issues and often wrong ones.

there is a pattern and religion or superstition fills the gaps


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26880007 - 08/14/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
So what?  That doesn't make it a good idea, to hang onto such a notion, as if it were a great spare tire.




If it gives you a better, happier life, why not?

All we have here is our experience, which we create.  Why make it worse because someone has convinced us to?




You do realize in some corner of your brain, I suppose, that the computer you are using and all the technology that makes it possible, were not invented by people, who thought stupid beliefs that made them happy were better than truth?

Seems, most of the smarter, folks figure this out, as they leave childhood behind and enter adulthood.

Of course some never want control over their own lives, and are nothing more than fodder, for the next cult leader.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26880056 - 08/14/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
...
Seems, most of the smarter, folks figure this out, as they leave childhood behind and enter adulthood.
...




not an issue about adulthood. I was working with solid science at 9 yrs of age, and persecuted for it.
eg. having explained to my father that footsteps in snow in the sun become ice due to pressure and heat and re-freezing (which I knew because I watched it happen) he declared that I am repeating some nonsense I had read as he rushed off to work or a floozy dame.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26880125 - 08/14/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

sorry about your dad, mine had some very serious faults too.

childhood is often associated, with false beliefs
not just Santa Claus, but also fairies, elves, and trolls
to say nothing of fairy tales

and growing up, is often associated, with facing the reality
that one must do, what one doesn't like:
homework and chores

and being an adult with even more illusions being shattered,
starting with paying bills and taxes.
And often really difficult stuff like divorce, and death of parents.

hopefully somewhere in the process, of growing up,
reason begins to be seen as an ally and not an enemy.

But as you point out everyone grows up in slightly different circumstances,
and everyone is different.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26880198 - 08/14/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

that's funny,
what I am saying is that a scientific bent is not connected to adulthood.

caring about what is really happening starts early, and is usually frustrated by the inanity (often theistic inanity) of adults.

I am saying the opposite of you WRT growing up and being adult. Reality is quite pressing when you are a child unless adults interfere - which is sometimes a good thing, though often tainted.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26880236 - 08/14/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
You do realize in some corner of your brain, I suppose, that the computer you are using and all the technology that makes it possible, were not invented by people, who thought stupid beliefs that made them happy were better than truth?

Seems, most of the smarter, folks figure this out, as they leave childhood behind and enter adulthood.

Of course some never want control over their own lives, and are nothing more than fodder, for the next cult leader.




If being condescending makes you happier, more power to ya :wink:

That's all I was saying.  People should believe what they choose to make themselves happier.  If computers and technology bring you true happiness in life then great :thumbup:


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26882978 - 08/16/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

then self transcendence should be wider and broader

like a medicine

a cure

enveloping humanity

popular

mainstream like meditation

something everyone knew about like meditation

encouraged

insanity is very hurtful

it causes a lot of suffering

and restricted like a too tight belt

as soon as it's there it should be selftranscended

away

it is not something that is tabu

not even not-accepted

"insane-hosts"! hahaha

no seriously it should be ridded now


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26883017 - 08/16/20 08:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

well, your gardener is always faced with how much pruning feels right, and no list of should's or should-not's will make that better.

often the way plants are themselves, provide a clue for what to do next.

I say look to nature rather than should's or should-not's


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester] * 1
    #26883646 - 08/16/20 03:32 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
You do realize in some corner of your brain, I suppose, that the computer you are using and all the technology that makes it possible, were not invented by people, who thought stupid beliefs that made them happy were better than truth?

Seems, most of the smarter, folks figure this out, as they leave childhood behind and enter adulthood.

Of course some never want control over their own lives, and are nothing more than fodder, for the next cult leader.




If being condescending makes you happier, more power to ya :wink:

That's all I was saying.  People should believe what they choose to make themselves happier.  If computers and technology bring you true happiness in life then great :thumbup:




.    Why should you care if I'm being condescending? You just stated you would rather believe lies than truth--  if it makes you happier, just pretend I'm a clown.
.    And be glad our president lies to the public causing more deaths.
.    Do you really expect to be respected, when you align yourself, with a philosophy that all intelligent people know, is actually currently killing people in the USA?

.  Anyway I did not disrespect you, and just suggested you are really doing yourself a disservice, by not taking the time, to re-think the consequences of your own assumptions. Intelligence is not just intuition that drops into our laps, but continually involves also making efforts to see if there are other angles to the assumptions we make. There is a continual choice between being lazy, or making an effort to keep learning. By comparison continual personal happiness, seems a rather childish goal.

“I have never looked upon ease and happiness as ends in themselves -- this critical basis I call the ideal of a pigsty. The ideals that have lighted my way, and time after time have given me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and Truth. Without the sense of kinship with men of like mind, without the occupation with the objective world, the eternally unattainable in the field of art and scientific endeavors, life would have seemed empty to me. The trite objects of human efforts -- possessions, outward success, luxury -- have always seemed to me contemptible.”
― Albert Einstein, The World As I See It


Edited by laughingdog (08/16/20 03:51 PM)


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26883860 - 08/16/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Like, I don't know what point you're trying to make laughingdog?  I gather you didn't believe in Santa Claus when young and have carried this dark suspicion into adulthood?


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26884185 - 08/17/20 01:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
well, your gardener is always faced with how much pruning feels right, and no list of should's or should-not's will make that better.

often the way plants are themselves, provide a clue for what to do next.

I say look to nature rather than should's or should-not's




Gardening is a great and very stimulating puzzle. But spraying large swathes of plants with herbicide is definitely a feelsbadman.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26884232 - 08/17/20 02:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Do you really expect to be respected, when you align yourself, with a philosophy that all intelligent people know, is actually currently killing people in the USA?





No, I don't expect to be respected.  I earn any respect I get by generally being kind to people. 

You assume an awful lot about my life philosophy from one statement, but that's fine I'm not here to engage you in an argument when you obviously aren't open to changing your philosophy about anything.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26884237 - 08/17/20 02:51 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm gonna somewhat side with forrester on this one. Much as I think LD's posts do have wisdom, they look to me a bit pretentious, thick, and wanky sometimes. I have to admit I'm a cruel bastard so take it with a grain of salt, my heart's not easily broken.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26884310 - 08/17/20 05:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

herbicide is not what I call gardening


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26884475 - 08/17/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

you are always so nice to us helping us

I think we should go for big bucks and get more to read them

like there are solutions like that

your posts are solutions to us fix us

there is so big sums to get from getting everyone to vote left and

making mindfulness in plain english more popular

spreading meditation

it's not that rocket science

it's obvious it's open it's there

like people think people should go to schools it's that easy and significant

everyone vote left and everyone read redgreenvines posts

there common sense

when we find something that is that good we should share it like we do with psychedelics and raise our kids

:smile: to :laugh:

or :frown: to :smile:

if it was rule of thumb idea that meditation and yoga is some of the best to do

it would be done more

1000 times more

like that with left wing and reading the best

having the best the BEST art in institutions

including schools

figuring out and making public and earth idea the things that are best

we already do that but mindfulness in plain english should be mainstream idea

he says the benefits pile up over the years

and isn't that as good as jobs?

doing better

doesn't one achieve a job more with two years of meditation


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26884529 - 08/17/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I like this
:smile: to :laugh:

or :frown: to :smile:


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26884647 - 08/17/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Do you really expect to be respected, when you align yourself, with a philosophy that all intelligent people know, is actually currently killing people in the USA?





No, I don't expect to be respected.  I earn any respect I get by generally being kind to people. 

You assume an awful lot about my life philosophy from one statement, but that's fine I'm not here to engage you in an argument when you obviously aren't open to changing your philosophy about anything.




I get that he came on a little strong, but it seems a bit hypocritical to assert that he's unwilling to change his position, after you sorta just ignored his very serious critique of your logic.

I thought his main point was rather clear; going by whatever makes you feel happy is a demonstrably terrible way to get to objective truth.

Simple example; person A thinks his race is better than yours. This belief makes person A happy. Does that make it true?

Seems like one slippery slope if you ask me.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26884786 - 08/17/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
herbicide is not what I call gardening




When it's your job it's kind of a part of it. I try not to but at the end of the day sometimes clients are adamant that you should poison some earth for them. Very few gardeners are moral enough to avoid it entirely.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Yellow Pants] * 1
    #26885863 - 08/17/20 10:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Is faith, in the ultimate sense, an advisable movement to make? 





Not quite to your point, but as much as I like this word faith, I don't care for the way we use it.

We already have belief for that, or conviction, or some other synonym denoting a more passionate or important belief.

I like to make faith a different thing--an orientation toward reality, one which moves with awareness of mystery and feels connected.

In this sense belief is to faith (perhaps?) as content is to process. We may ply them apart, though it's usually a package deal.


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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Svetaketu]
    #26885986 - 08/18/20 02:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Svetaketu said:
I get that he came on a little strong, but it seems a bit hypocritical to assert that he's unwilling to change his position, after you sorta just ignored his very serious critique of your logic.

I thought his main point was rather clear; going by whatever makes you feel happy is a demonstrably terrible way to get to objective truth.

Simple example; person A thinks his race is better than yours. This belief makes person A happy. Does that make it true?

Seems like one slippery slope if you ask me.




Fair point - I just don't want to re-hash the whole theism debate here, as it's been done a million times and no one on either side is ever convinced of the other.  People believe what they want whether your God is science and you call that truth, or give him another name.


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OfflineSvetaketu
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Forrester]
    #26886529 - 08/18/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'd disagree with that last bit, people believe what they have been convinced of and they can either be convinced for good reasons or bad ones.

But fair enough, certainly not here to push you into having a conversation you don't want to have.

Attempting to get back to the OP; I would say faith is not an advisable movement, as I consider faith to be the bad reason people give when they don't have a good reason to believe.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: Svetaketu]
    #26886628 - 08/18/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

"oh yea of little faith"
- this is a derogatory attitude to people who are not on your team
- therefore it is divisive and borne of attitude much more than personal experience or opinion separate from propaganda


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26886776 - 08/18/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

As regards the OP's question (1) and the argument re the pursuit of happiness, above truth (2).

1) There is a big difference between what people say they believe, and what they actually do in life - yet people get into big arguments with others about what they say, often without having any data as to how the person actually behaves in different situations.

2) One of the main points of Huxley's book "Brave new World" was that happiness, by itself, and for its own sake is a rather shabby goal, and that humans are actually capable of much loftier aims.

The Einstein quote I posted above, makes exactly the same point.

Both brilliant men, far smarter than most, so its understandable they didn't emphasize the qualifier that not all humans are actually capable of much loftier aims. So for those happiness must suffice, as a goal.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Theism as a potentially advisable move [Re: laughingdog]
    #26886897 - 08/18/20 02:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Some critics might ensure me that empathy is a far higher goal than happiness. Let me see...

      "I empathize with your loss but find it hard to sympathize with deadbeats who have never had to work for a thing in their lives,"

There... I think I'm safe from vigilantes on the lookout for men who dare to refer to women as objects.


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