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InvisibleStipe-n CapMDiscord
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Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation * 4
    #26872959 - 08/10/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

  Bacillus inoculations have been widely used in the production of Pleurotus ostreatus, Pleurotus eryngii, Agaricus bisporus, shiitake, etc.

Bacillus megaterium has been shown to stimulate primordia formation, (According to Park and Agnihotri (1969))
Bacillus thermofibricolous: if introduced at spawning, inhibits the growth of competitor molds in rice bran/sawdust spawn
(according to Steineck (1973))
Bacillus subtilis QST713 has been used as a biofungicide coating on grain spawn to prevent Trichoderma aggressivum:
Source provided at the bottom of the post.

Many bacteria have been shown to be beneficial in primordia and fruit body formation, hyphae growth etc. Though I'm sure this practice is out of reach for most hobby growers for obvious reasons, does the pursuit of strictly axenic spawn and substrate production represent a limitation to furthering our understanding of the mushroom life cycle. We may be able to increase productivity, increase the instances of fruiting otherwise stubborn to fruit species, and a potential reduction of common seasonal contamination problems within the community...I think that it's within reach of some of the more experienced growers here that have connections to lab techs.

Growing edible mushrooms: a conversation between bacteria and fungi:
"Although fungi have coexisted and interacted with bacteria since the earliest stages in fungal evolution, we still understand relatively little about their interactions. Culture independent techniques have allowed researchers to establish that in a natural context fungi‐selected microbiota exist along the mycelial surface and within proximity to mycelia (Halsey et al., 2016).
The environment within and surrounding fungal hyphae, sometimes known as the mycosphere, influences and is strongly influenced by bacterial communities, to the extent that many macrofungi are unable to produce fruiting bodies in a sterile environment (Noble et al., 2003, 2009). Unsurprisingly, bacteria‐fungi interactions have a significant impact on the productivity of commercial mushroom farms."

Source:
https://sfamjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1462-2920.14765



Bacteria sequenced from fermented woodchip substrate colonized with the above species of mycelium. The bacteria present in the substrate formed mutualistic-beneficial partnerships within the mycelial-mass resulting in a beneficial immunological effect for both colonies (bacterial and fungal).
Source: Stamets.

I believe we could benefit by incorporating these practices that are somewhat common in the commercial mushroom community. Access and legality obviously representing a limiting factor.


This article is a perfect example of the process used to identify and isolate symbiotic bacteria from any species of mycelia.

https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/218/2/271/530921

"Bacteria were collected from cultures of P. ostreatus following mushroom production on samples of composted and noncomposted cotton plant waste products. Samples were selected from spent culture medium that had previously produced either high or low yields and the microorganisms were classified into four groups (C-H, C-L, NC-H, and NC-L) according to whether they had been isolated from composted (C) or noncomposted (NC) plant waste, with, high (H) or low (L) yields."

The selected species in this case was P. ostreatus, however it could have easily been Pan. Cyanescens with samples taken from spent composted manure substrate rather than spent composted cotton...

"Other cultures of bacteria were obtained by direct sampling of mycelia produced in composted waste cotton, and were collected after the first harvest of P. ostreatus at 3 to 7 cm depth below the surface of the mushroom culture medium. The mycelia were carefully isolated by hand, using tweezers.."

Ten colonies of fluorescent Pseudomonas were selected and isolated from the mycelial plane of P. ostreatus.

P. ostreatus were grown on TSB agar with each bacteria bacterial To observe the effects of selected fluorescent pseudomonad cultures on growth of axenic cultures of mycelium.

The result:

Inoculation with fluorescent Pseudomonas spp. significantly promoted the development of the mycelium of P. ostreatus, the formation of primordia, and the development of P. ostreatus basidiome.

Hypothesis:

It is likely that the Psilocybe producing Coprophilous/Saprotrophic species have similar relationships with the bacteria in their respective substrates. Isolating those bacteria and Understanding their effect on health and growth will greatly advance our understanding of these species.

The composted substrates used to grow exotic Coprophilous and Saprotrophic species are the best candidate's for investigation into which bacteria form beneficial partnerships with their respective mycelial colonies as shown above.

Most of that process is out of the reach of most growers without lab connections,
however if using the sampling scheme above, one could collect samples from within the spent manure/wood substrate and attempt to grow out some colonies on agar:
Once colonies form, streak to new plates to be sent away for sequencing. This will at least tell you whats in the substrate. Isolating those bacteria and culturing them separately on agar to observe the interactions between them and mycelium on agar, well, this is an entirely different problem that will need to be solved.


Bacterial samples can be sent here for sequencing:

https://www.genewiz.com/en/Public/Services/Sanger-Sequencing/Direct-Colony-Sequencing?sc_device=Mobile


Some source material for your reading pleasure. There is lot's of this material online, these are just a few. This post constitutes a proof of concept for active species.

The nature of the microbial stimulus affecting sporophore formation in Agaricus bisporus (Lange) Sing

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229916455_The_nature_of_the_microbial_stimulus_affecting_sporophore_formation_in_Agaricus_bisporus_Lange_Sing

Impact of Bacillus subtilis QST713 mushroom grain spawn treatment on yield and green mould control

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330711315_Impact_of_Bacillus_subtilis_QST713_mushroom_grain_spawn_treatment_on_yield_and_green_mould_control

Microorganism of Pseudomonas putida which stimulates the growth of mushroom and method for culturing mushrooms using the same

https://patents.google.com/patent/KR20040078027A/en





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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #26872993 - 08/10/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

tagged for interest


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27141941 - 01/11/21 12:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

"A biofungicide based on Bacillus subtilis QST713 was tested for impact on yield and efficacy against a Trichoderma aggressivum f. europaeum T77 strain from Serbia by coating mushroom grain spawn and comparing the results with the chemical fungicide prochloraz manganese in a mushroom growing room. The tested B. subtilis QST713 strain did not inhibit mycelial growth of Agaricus bisporus in plots free of the pathogen, showing an impact on yield of 91.95%, which was not significantly different from an untreated control. As for the efficacy of the fungicides used against T. aggressivum f. europaeum T77, there were no significant differences between a prochloraz manganese casing treatment, and B. subtilis QST713 coating on mushroom grain spawn, as the efficacy was 70.37 and 53.09%, respectively. These results implied that the biofungicide based on B. subtilis could serve as a harmless alternative to synthetic fungicides in mushroom production, especially during serious compost green muold outbreaks caused by T. aggressivum. Furthermore, the biofungicide should be applied alone because an antagonistic reaction was detected between the fungicide prochloraz and B. subtilis QST713."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/330711315_Impact_of_Bacillus_subtilis_QST713_mushroom_grain_spawn_treatment_on_yield_and_green_mould_control

I will be sourcing B. subtilis QST713 from Serenade antifungal spray to begin my trials. My intention is to inoculate petri dishes with B. subtilis QST713 using an inoculation loop and then transferring bacteria colonies to LC; LC will then be used to coat grain spawn.



First round of testing will be to determine if this bacteria is going to behave as a pathogenic contamination, and if not, then it's effect on BE. The provided source notes reduced BE during their trials, however they admit that the reduction in performance was likely correlated to the reduction in spawn:

"although all treatments had lower BE in these experiments, perhaps because of the lower A. bisporus inoculation (0.7%) in both previous experiments, whereas it was double in our trial, i.e. we used 1.4% mycelia of A. bisporus spawning in the compost."

This seems like a serious mistake, why change an important variable half way through:facepalm3:

I'm posting this before my results are in, in the hopes that others may be interested in running their own trials.
My hope is to put a serious dent in seasonal trichoderma contamination.

More to follow...

Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/12/21 09:28 AM)

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InvisibleJosex
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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27141948 - 01/11/21 12:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for sharing, will take a look later. There's nothing symbiotic about cube myc and bacillus though. Might be about the most disruptive bacteria there is for cubes.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27141950 - 01/11/21 12:36 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Josex said:
Thanks for sharing, will take a look later. There's nothing symbiotic about cube myc and bacillus though. Might be about the most disruptive bacteria there is for cubes.




I think that depends on the strain of bacillus.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27141956 - 01/11/21 12:38 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Subtillis. The one that produces the endospores that we try to kill in the PC.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27141971 - 01/11/21 12:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, this is not just any bacillus subtilis however. We will see though. Perhaps you are correct, the thing is that we need to start adopting methods used in the agro community where applicable. Tests have not been done with active mycelium due to legal restrictions. I believe we are in a great Position as a community to be filling that niche.

It may be the case that this strain of bacteria is pathogenic to cubensis mycelium and not with agaricus, this is yet to be determined. It stands to reason however that if it's beneficial to one species, there may be others. Only way to find out is to noc up some jars and give it a go. If it works this could be a great breakthrough for hobby growers suffering from seasonal trichoderma. If it doesn't work, well, it will be fun to find out :thumbup:

It is my intention to try as many bacterial inoculations as I can get my hands on. This is just a start.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142021 - 01/11/21 01:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

So i have thought about this before. The fact that some fungi need a casing layer i think is helpful info to use.
I have made post i will look for them in a little bit.
From what i remember from my research is something called "Fire Fang" many people on the board who collect poo know what it is.
Well its not just one bacteria. It's a plethora of micro organisms. Maybe we can get a lab (or bod :cool:) to tell us what exactly is in it.
Might be somewhere to start.


Edit - Oh yeah, I didn't read the post. Sorry :blush:I'll be back in here later.

Edited by bw86 (01/11/21 01:11 PM)

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Offlinestarbones
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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142027 - 01/11/21 01:15 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Just use t-methyl if you're worried about green molds.

You can look up the studies done and see the beneficial increase in BE when used as a casing drench. RR also used t-methyl to create grain spawn that didn't need to be PC'd but ultimately found it not to really be needed with proper sterile procedure.

I think t-methyl as a casing drench is now the industry standard for mushroom farms now? Ones that aren't looking for OMRI certification anyways. Keeps the green away except for t. aggressivum I believe which we probably don't run into much.

Senator 50 SC is one of the products you're looking for specifically designed for mold inhibition in mushroom farming. Instructions have a mix-rate, application rate etc. You won't see it used much here because of two factors, 1) Sterile procedure for spawn works
2) Clean spawn can take a sub to the 3rd flush without green mold.

There's also the problem of t-methyl being reaaaaally fucking expensive for most people as something like Senator 50 SC is a concentrate and you gotta buy a big jug of it. $1100 Canadian for one but in this game you'd never run out, ever.

Or just use clean spawn because sterile procedure isn't difficult and we're not using compost like white button farmers are so clean spawn + contamination resistant growing medium = green molds not really an issue until the myc is dying.

Hope that helps.


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: starbones]
    #27142069 - 01/11/21 01:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thats definitely interesting, post the particulars and that would definitely benefit the thread.

And yes, clean spawn blah blah, this is basic, standard mycology, it's a given.
What I want is more tools in the chest.
Trichoderma is a starting point. Learn about Japanese and Chinese growing practices, they utilize a wide variety of bacterial symbiots. This is what I want for actives. Trichoderma is a starting point. We are myopic,let's try not to be.

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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142085 - 01/11/21 01:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:takingnotes:
I have just the lab connections you're talking about.
Guess I'm calling up all my microbiologist buddies and have them come over for a chat.
EDIT: Shroomery on mobile sucks.

Edited by mushhead (01/11/21 01:54 PM)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: mushhead]
    #27142088 - 01/11/21 01:56 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thats what I'm talking about. One day
these species will be legal, let's do what we can to improve upon our understanding of the growth cycle and the beneficial relationships between fungi and bacteria.
Things get monotonous, let's mix it up with some real science.

Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/12/21 10:46 AM)

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InvisibleJosex
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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bw86]
    #27142098 - 01/11/21 01:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I will be sourcing B. subtilis QST713 from Serenade antifungal spray to begin my trials. My intention is to inoculate petri dishes with B. subtilis QST713 using an inoculation loop and then transferring bacteria colonies to LC; LC will then be used to coat grain spawn.




I grow cubes and tbh I don't know anything about aggro applications of B. subtilis. All I know is that the last thing I want in my spawn is B. subtilis, that's why we go to great lengths to destroy its endospores on our grains.

It is a very common contaminant of grain spawn, more so than we give it credit for and even slighly contaminated spawn can and will reduce yields by a lot.
There's very little information on the subject of B. Subtilis in regards to mushroom cultivation (cubes) and I'm not an avid reader on the subject myself but from my own experience I have linked the presence of this bacteria in my spawn to a number of serious issues in my tubs that may go beyond mere correlations.

B. subtilis also produces cry toxins when they produce their spores, a powerful antifungal, and a subset of the population produces spores even in the presence of abundant food and good conditions, so if there's B. subtilis in yous spawn you can be sure it will produce spores (and therefore cry toxins) when spawned.


So no need to source anything. Look no further than the grain you use, as it's naturally loaded with B. subtilis spores.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27142106 - 01/11/21 02:04 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

There will be detractors, certainly. This happens any time that someone thinks outside of the box. Bacillus is a contaminate species for all mushrooms. They developed this strain by isolating bacteria that clings to the mycelial plane of certain species of gourmet mushroom. Unless you have imperial data proving otherwise you cannot say with any certainty that it will not benefit cubensis.

Bacterial symbiosis is a thing for all species of fungus, including cubensis. We will see.

Saying:
"Bro, clean spawn" isn't helpful. The gourmet industry does what it does for a reason.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142114 - 01/11/21 02:06 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:smbfacepalm:

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27142118 - 01/11/21 02:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Listen man, you're a guy who grows illegal drugs, not a real mycologist. Face palm me all you like.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142129 - 01/11/21 02:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

All I'm saying is, if you want B. Subtilis because you think is some hot shit for growing cubes, look no further than your own grains. All you need to do is an insufficient cycle and you will have a lot of B. subtilis in your spawn, look for tha nice wet spot.

Then spawn that and you'll see some symbiotic action from hell take place. :thumbup:

You only need axenic spawn to produce healthy good flushes, no need to add anything or spray anything to your substrate and certainly no bacteria ffs.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27142145 - 01/11/21 02:23 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I agree 100%

What I'm saying is that is 100% basic information provided to every noob ad nauseum. This is fucking boring. I can make clean spawn with my eyes burned out with a cigarette.

I want to do some science, this is how it's done. I'm not looking for a silver bullet, what I am looking for is an advanced approach to understanding the symbiosis between active species and bacteria, discount as you may, there certainly is one, or else they would not have evolved on dung, or at all.

Problem:

Seasonal trichoderma plagues hobby active mushroom growing community.

Hypothesis:
By Understanding symbiotic relationships between cultivated fungi and bacteria we may benefit the community and deepen our understanding of the species we work with.

You are correct, this may fail, but it may not. If you're content growing cubes ad infinitum then keep doing that. I on the the other hand require a tad more intellectual stimulation.

This is a fun project, I'm sharing it. If you think that clean spawn and sterile technique are the depth and breadth of our trade, so be it. I on the other hand would be far more interested to find more.

Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/11/21 02:38 PM)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142148 - 01/11/21 02:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

There's probably some bacteria with mutualistic relationships with cubensis. Actually there almost definitely is. If I were looking for them, I'd start with their historical growth medium, namely shit. Find out the main members of the microbial community in a range of samples from a few different species of animal and try to find recurrent species of bacteria.

I think this type of addition would just be redundant to the best growers here as they get very high BE, but it may have merit for the less experienced grower.


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Lemgrub]
    #27142155 - 01/11/21 02:26 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Like I said, if good enough is good enough for you, well, good.

Cubes aren't the focus here, just to be clear. Why do pans need manure? Almost certainly because of bacteria. Cubes, pans, whatever species you care to name will most certainly have formed a symbiotic relationship with bacteria and I am going to try to find out which ones. My starting point is logical, I'll start with known species of bacteria used within the gourmet and agro community, if they fail, well, I'll keep looking.

Yes, you can grow a shit ton of mushrooms, but is that what makes you happy? If it does, good, I on the otherhand have a "lab" and I certainly intend to max out its potential.

So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. This threads purpose is to experiment with inoculation procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.

Even if I fail in my attempts, I have still found an answer.

Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/11/21 02:46 PM)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142192 - 01/11/21 02:52 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


Edited by EZPZyaBZ (01/11/21 03:29 PM)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142222 - 01/11/21 03:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

If someone asked me point blank if I thought there was a species that had an almost symbiotic relationship with cubes I’d say maybe Pseudomonas tolaasii, it’s only ever a problem when conditions get poor but is always there for when they do. Otherwise they cause no harm so perhaps there is an unseen benefit of some sort? But IME my best grows were also the ones that I was most confident in the spawn being axenic. Is that some wild correlation? Perhaps? But comparing Agaricus to Psilocybe is like comparing a lion to a poodle. Both are in the same order, similar diets, etc. Still very different organisms.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27142229 - 01/11/21 03:11 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah so my microbiologist major friend just stopped by and read the thread.
Here is what he has to say. There could exist a symbiotic relationship between cubensis and bacteria.
However he has no proof other than what is recorded for agricultural use for mass production of mushrooms on farms.
Nothing anywhere states cubes have any kind of symbiosis with bacteria.
You're right p9, seems like this is something worth putting time into.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27142233 - 01/11/21 03:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Absolutely, but I need a starting point. Like I said, there is something to be said about symbiosis.  Cubes...well, not so interesting to tell you the truth. I would much prefer working with more Coprophilous , exotic fungi ( even though cubes are Coprophilous fungi)

This is an intellectual endeavor. I'm streaking plates whether ya'll like it or not, lol.

Quote:

mushhead said:
You're right p9, seems like this is something worth putting time into.




I have nothing but time on my hands, this has been a question thats been nagging me. Probe, inquire.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27142243 - 01/11/21 03:19 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Subtilis is old news in aquarium biblioteque farming anyways. The new jam is something like bacillus varagenaluminumsiding or something or other.

T-methyl is still the gold standard and as a guy who has a 10l jug that paid over $1100 outta Winnipeg I'll tell you it's not needed. One because it requires casing which I don't do except for casing at spawn where it would actually be a bad thing and two because clean spawn beats all.

Now if I was using horse shit and straw with peat casings? All day long I'd be spraying this stuff. There's no reason to though if the spawn is clean, that means the grains are protected by the myc, the coir I'm spawning to is protected by the natural oils and acids of the coconut. It really is that simple.

Aquanaut billiards farmers are using compost, very vulnerable big casings and that's why bacicillus subtilus and bacillus varageevergeenforest were studied as bacterial fungicides against molds.

T-methyl works though but until I have a massive steel building with 20 foot tall mushroom racks then it's not needed.


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: starbones]
    #27142246 - 01/11/21 03:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Hey, thanks for you clean spawn input, guy who registered last year. Very nice work.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142247 - 01/11/21 03:22 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Who in the mushroom growing industry is using symbiotic microorganisms to grow mushrooms with success? That's where I wanted to see this thread start. I'm hearing about these places but not seeing them.

Id be pretty surprised if there's any bacteria that are symbionts with cubensis.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142248 - 01/11/21 03:22 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Why do pans need manure? Almost certainly because of bacteria.



nah cause you can grow pans off of Sterilized manure.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bw86]
    #27142252 - 01/11/21 03:25 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bw86 said:
Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Why do pans need manure? Almost certainly because of bacteria.



nah cause you can grow pans off of Sterilized manure.



Pans have grown off sterile malt extract petri dishes. Thus proving they need neither manure or bacteria.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27142253 - 01/11/21 03:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

bw86 said:
Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Why do pans need manure? Almost certainly because of bacteria.



nah cause you can grow pans off of Sterilized manure.



Pans have grown off sterile malt extract petri dishes. Thus proving they need neither manure or bacteria.



This is how I plan to grow my pans... I got two manure boomer bags (because I can't source my own horse manure) which are sterilized.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27142254 - 01/11/21 03:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Guys...honestly....

Yeah man, muahrooms want to live. Yeah you can grow them without bacteria lol.

I'm not your research assistant, look it up. It's common practice in Asia.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142257 - 01/11/21 03:28 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Hey, thanks for you clean spawn input, guy who registered last year. Very nice work.




Was that directed at me? I'm gonna ask you to clarify if that was directed at me because that "clean spawn input" is backed by every single TC on this board.
You're just discovering bacillus sub now, don't know shit about t-methyl and you're going to rot on me about my reg date?

Again, was that was directed at me?


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: starbones]
    #27142259 - 01/11/21 03:30 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yup, and dude, just because I posted this now doesn't mean I found out about it 5 mins ago.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142261 - 01/11/21 03:32 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Guys...honestly....

Yeah man, muahrooms want to live. Yeah you can grow them without bacteria lol.

I'm not your research assistant, look it up. It's common practice in Asia.



I mean... we're discussing the subject and I'm sure we're all kinda using google to helps us out here because its not something spoken of often so of course people are gonna ask you stuff m8.

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Hey, thanks for you clean spawn input, guy who registered last year. Very nice work.



Please be nice to starbones he's extremely knowledgeable and has helped me often.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142267 - 01/11/21 03:36 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Thought so.

The field moved past subtilis long ago. I'm glad you found something on google that excited you but if you're going to be an insulting cock because someone points out using clean spawn and contamination resistant substrate negates the need for anything else then you can die mad about it.

We don't use compost. We use a contamination resistant substrate, not compost. We spawn clean spawn to bulk, contamination resistant bulk. There is no need for anything further unless you want to revert to using horse shit and straw, then the idea of something like bacteria or t-methyl has merit. Until that time pull the megaphone away from your ass and address whatever problems you're introducing to your grow that are causing mold instead of looking for bandaid fixes.

Clean spawn, coir and vermiculite. You will have success with these without the need for anti-fungals like in alligator bisexual farming. If you choose to start using horse shit and straw with a peat casing then let me know and maybe I'll give you a sniff from my jug of t-methyl.

Until that time keep thinking registration date means sweet fuck all.


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: starbones]
    #27142274 - 01/11/21 03:41 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
What I'm saying is that is 100% basic information provided to every noob ad nauseum. This is fucking boring. I can make clean spawn with my eyes burned out with a cigarette.

I want to do some science, this is how it's done. I'm not looking for a silver bullet, what I am looking for is an advanced approach to understanding the symbiosis between active species and bacteria, discount as you may, there certainly is one, or else they would not have evolved on dung, or at all.

Problem:

Seasonal trichoderma plagues hobby active mushroom growing community.

Hypothesis:
By Understanding symbiotic relationships between cultivated fungi and bacteria we may benefit the community and deepen our understanding of the species we work with.

You are correct, this may fail, but it may not. If you're content growing cubes ad infinitum then keep doing that. I on the the other hand require a tad more intellectual stimulation.

This is a fun project, I'm sharing it. If you think that clean spawn and sterile technique are the depth and breadth of our trade, so be it. I on the other hand would be far more interested to find more.




Read my posts.

Clean spawn is BASIC. I understand the basics. I can produce clean spawn. I can produce more mushrooms than ill ever consume over a thousand lifetimes should I so desire. What I'm looking for is intellectual stimulation. Axenic inoculation is old fuck8ng news in Asia. We are working with a controlled set of species. Yes, you absolutely 100% do not need bacteria. What I am saying is maybe I  we, could experiment. If you aren't down, cool. I however am.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27142276 - 01/11/21 03:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

This thread will probably be locked by tomorrow if you cant find a way to stop jumping at everyone who isn't on your dick.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27142283 - 01/11/21 03:48 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Lock it now, I'll just experiment on my own.

Fact of the matter is that were all a bunch of guys locked into one way of doing things. That's cool, all I'm saying is that there are other methods, would you like to explore other methods?

The response...why use other methods? "clean spawn". Excellent, you are correct. I'm drunk af, and I can still see that whenever someone posts anything that doesn't follow the formula is shit on. I'm not shitting on anyone for "not being on my dick"

I'm a criminal growing drugs, aren't you?
Seems like you guys have some thin skin.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142286 - 01/11/21 03:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I really appreciate you p9 for your contribution to the idea that there could be a symbiosis between bacteria and cubensis mushrooms.
I am truly excited to see you do a write up, I will do my own experiments with the assistance of my microbiologist m8's here.
I hope we can peacefully collaborate in the future.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142292 - 01/11/21 03:54 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

You went passive aggressive the moment I tried (politely) to explain why B. subtilis is the last thing you want in a grow, and I am the thin-skinned one? Then you went on super intellectual person condescending mode.

Show me something that can improve the way we grow or make some processes easier and you won't get "shat on" (you weren't) like you said.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 2
    #27142294 - 01/11/21 03:56 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Here.

Bacillus velezensis.

These bacteria are only being researched because group 1 fungicides like t-methyl are ineffective against trichoderma aggressivum and an alternative is needed.

Nobody on this board is capable of culturing bacteria in a way they could isolate colonies of bacillus subtilis or velezensis, save for maybe bod I guess I dunno what he does for a living. Nobody. You need very, very specialized and very very expensive equipment to do this.

T-methyl is the gold standard for non-OMRI certified aviation butthole farming. Nothing else comes close to its effectiveness or the yields.

You think I'm trying to shit on your parade but I'm not. I'm telling you that if you want a solution to green molds then it's t-methyl or another group 1 fungicide. There's no point though because costs are nearly the same. As RR and Workman did 15 years ago you can have spawn treated with t-methyl open to the air for days and still inoculate them with live mycelium. It's just not needed.

We use clean spawn and a contamination RESISTANT (Not proof, fuck anyone who disagrees) substrate. These two tools are capable of giving us enough flushes until the mycelium is out of jam without need for anything else.

The only place in this hobby that t-methyl, anti-mold bacterias (Remember, I just paid $1100 for a jug of t-methyl) has is if someone was to go back to horse shit and straw substrates with peat casings. Then, t-methyl has a place. Sure I could grow a casing requiring variety like PE and then employ the t-methyl but why? We have the tools needed to move PAST the problems of yesteryear that come with horse shit and straw. Perhaps this has a place in pan farming.

I'm out. Bacillus sutilis is old hand and meant for farming white butts, the work done to get the hobby to this point is enough that many have zero physical room in their monotubs for more fruits. Zero. Physical. Room.


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: starbones]
    #27142301 - 01/11/21 04:01 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:whathesaid:
I had to fact check this but its true.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: starbones]
    #27142311 - 01/11/21 04:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Ok so let's be clear. There is absolutely no room whatsoever for experimentation with bacteria?

Coir, verm, clean spawn. Thats all there is to all of our endeavors? Even if its pointless to know, there's nothing to be discovered?

I made a post saying that I want to culture bacteria just to see what happens...best possible outcome, reduction in trich, worst outcome and the most likely....nothing happens.

Do we need more mushrooms? Like you said, we don't need more, wee grow enough.
Literally all I'm saying is that there is a legal industry that uses bacterial cultures, am I capable...who knows, guess ill find out; is it absolutely useless? Maybe. Growing tub after tub of mushrooms is fun, but I'd like to try engaging in some other activities. Do you guys agree? Definitely not  thats just fine. I've generated a thread, I'll post my failures. Either way  I will have satiated my curiosity.

Clean spawn has not been challenged, relax  guys. I want to culture some bullshit spray from the garden center and see how that affects my spawn. That is all.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27142319 - 01/11/21 04:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Hey, thanks for you clean spawn input, guy who registered last year. Very nice work.




I can't speak for the guy that was directed towards, but some of us just blew our op-sec and decided to start new accounts. :wink:  I've always enjoyed your posts.

Please don't let anybody dissuade you from trying this. I'm rolling heavy with anybody that volunteers their time to expand our collective knowledge and skillset.  :popcorn:


Bah-humbuggers :
Get Down, or Lay Down. Even if we don't think it will work why not structure our input in such a way as to encourage people with the time and wherewithal to experiment for our potential mutual benefit rather than putting him on the defensive? Using your intellect or supposed superior knowledge on a topic, whether earned or only perceived, to stifle the next mans creative thought processes is really stupid for people so smart and only serves to hamstrings us all. The next thing he comes up with might be a game changer and we'd never know because we spent so much time shitting on people's train of thought and they might not share the next one. The particulars of this case aside, when things pan out in an unanticipated way don't we all gain?

Just saying. Can't we all get along? :lol:

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142326 - 01/11/21 04:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Don't go cry there's no room for experimentation. If this thread were built better it would have got better reception. Same goes if your attitude was more cool over the last three pages.

Generally a thread like this goes two ways. This way because OP is looking for a fight. Or well thought out with some more content

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: EZPZyaBZ]
    #27142332 - 01/11/21 04:20 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I'm all for it, if we find some kind of magic bacteria that is best friends with cubes that'll eat all the baddies cubes hate then wonderful!!
I'm too down to find out if this is a thing. I'm just not as great a microbiologist as my other colleagues.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: mushhead]
    #27142336 - 01/11/21 04:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Says go google it bro. I google shit all the time but kind of wanted to know what p9 thought was compelling.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bodhisatta] * 2
    #27142340 - 01/11/21 04:23 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Don't go cry there's no room for experimentation. If this thread were built better it would have got better reception. Same goes if your attitude was more cool over the last three pages




You're probably right, bod. Can't say that I'm much of a scholar, I do what I can. My attitude may be off as well, I'm willing to accept that, especially due to the fact that I'm on my theird bottle of wine; having said that however, I'm sure you can forgive me bod, you old rascal. We all know that we're both a couple of cunts from time to time. No hard feelings, fellas.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142460 - 01/11/21 05:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bw86]
    #27142464 - 01/11/21 05:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Wasn't that bod's avatar some years ago?

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27142470 - 01/11/21 05:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

it was somebodys... i don't remember who.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Josex]
    #27142485 - 01/11/21 05:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

lol i think you're right


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Tight Lunchbox]
    #27142497 - 01/11/21 05:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

forget cubes for a moment all together, they likely aren't coprophilic anyway.
Simplify your goal and dumb it down for a moment, what are you trying to achieve?


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: cronicr]
    #27142509 - 01/11/21 06:12 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I want to identify any organism that can be utilized in any stage of active mushroom production, without any specific outcome or application. Any outcome, any application is interesting. There must be something going on with beneficial organisms that we aren't tapping into.
The best place for me to begin is with what is readily available, serenade is ubiquitous. It likely will not work, but then again none of us can say until it's been attempted and ruled out.

I have some indirect connections to large producers of edible mushrooms, I will try anything that they use to see if there can be an overlap in practices.

I'm very open to suggestions, however ridicule for the sake of ridicule seems short sighted.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27142514 - 01/11/21 06:18 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Honestly start with location, where the cubensis was found, and take samples of that wild cubensis.
Grow it out on agar, not biopsy style but just throw a small chunck of the surface onto agar.
Separate the bacteria and then with a little experimentation you could find ones that help out.
This is just what me and my m8 here who is a microbiology major are talkin' over.
essentially he saying what you're looking for is a bacteria that uses the mycelium as a highway without damaging it, one which attacks other fungus/bacteria.
He's actually going way over my head but I'm trying to translate.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: mushhead]
    #27142521 - 01/11/21 06:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah thats definitely a great idea. I unfortunately live in Canada and movement is restricted.

So I'm going to make my first attempts with what I have available, if I had the proper training I would attempt to replicate what was done in the OP by isolating bacteria found clinging to the mycelial plane. Perhaps you can recruit your friends if you're interested. This is the process linked here:

https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/218/2/271/530921

Bacteria from composted materials like manure are the most likely candidates for finding these organisms, should they exist, and its reasonable to assume that they do. If they were isolated who knows what could be possible.


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27142539 - 01/11/21 06:43 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

again if u want better reception aim higher then cubensis,  they are to simple to grow so all you will get is arguements, what types of bacteria are our woodlovers living with or things like mexicana


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: cronicr]
    #27142557 - 01/11/21 07:03 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Cubes aren't the focus here, just to be clear. Why do pans need manure? Almost certainly because of bacteria. Cubes, pans, whatever species you care to name will most certainly have formed a symbiotic relationship with bacteria and I am going to try to find out which ones.




Yeah that was my mistake, thats why I added this statement. Cubes are certainly not the focus, dung and wood decomposers are better candidates for sure.

Quote:

cronicr said:
... what types of bacteria are our woodlovers living with or things like mexicana




Exactly, this is a very interesting question and worthy of attention, in my estimation anyways. Nothing exists in a vacuum, most species benefit from fungal and bacterial symbiosis.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: cronicr]
    #27143404 - 01/12/21 09:23 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
again if u want better reception aim higher then cubensis,  they are to simple to grow so all you will get is arguements, what types of bacteria are our woodlovers living with or things like mexicana




I've edited the OP for clarity. Hopefully this helps.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27143804 - 01/12/21 12:44 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah a bit of clarity on what a desired outcome looks like would definitely help the discussion lol. People get all het up at the suggestion that they could be doing something sub-optimal, even if that's not what you're saying. Obviously to improve a well-executed cube grain-coir grow, whatever is added would need to either speed things up, increase BE by making more of the substrate available, or allow the use of cheaper or easier to deal with nutrition.

Personally, in the cube world, I'd love to see some controlled agar experiments. like deliberately put a known bacteria/yeast/mold on a plate with some cube mycelium and see exactly what the outcomes look like. Not likely to improve anybody's grow, but should be interesting regardless.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: dfwerydfhg]
    #27143808 - 01/12/21 12:45 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

This is 100% not about cubensis. I am however going to see what happens to cube mycelium when exposed to serenade as a one off due to availability. This thread is more about discovering and experimenting with bacterial colonies found in composted substrates like manure and wood; possibly including experiments with other kinds of bacteria already in use with edible species in the commercial community, like B. Subtilis QST713.

Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/12/21 01:15 PM)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27143828 - 01/12/21 12:53 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Puduwoke]
    #27143984 - 01/12/21 02:21 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

have to read the rest of this thread!  i have been thinking for awhile about using myco soil powders if a guy added to pasturized bulk to help keep contams at bay but interesting applying to induce fruiting as could be used more sparingly spray the surface.

subtilis is common in soil myco and may even be what they have in compost accelerator products.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: cronicr]
    #27143992 - 01/12/21 02:24 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
forget cubes for a moment all together, they likely aren't coprophilic anyway.
Simplify your goal and dumb it down for a moment, what are you trying to achieve?




Very interesting, it could be the key for liberty caps for exemple(simple hypotesis)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: basilic85]
    #27143999 - 01/12/21 02:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

basilic85 said:
Very interesting, it could be the key for liberty caps for exemple(simple hypotesis)




Bacteria is likely the a significant  part of the puzzle when considering stubborn to fruit species, active or otherwise.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27144007 - 01/12/21 02:33 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Quote:

basilic85 said:
Very interesting, it could be the key for liberty caps for exemple(simple hypotesis)




Bacteria is likely the a significant  part of the puzzle when considering stubborn to fruit species, active or otherwise.



Now here's where we go and find some wild libs, take samples and attempt to separate out the bacteria we find growing upon them.
This would help narrow things down a bit. Just what my microbiologist m8 said yesterday.
I wish I didn't live in the land of sand.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: mushhead] * 1
    #27144019 - 01/12/21 02:39 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Absolutely, this is the best course of action. When attempting to find novel relationships between bacteria and fungi its going to take proper laboratories. Should you have the connections I encourage you to take advantage of those  microbiology buddies to lend a hand in identification.

The same samples can even be taken at home, using the same sampling regimen:

"Samples were selected from spent culture medium that had previously produced either high or low yields and the microorganisms were classified into four groups (C-H, C-L, NC-H, and NC-L) according to whether they had been isolated from composted (C) or noncomposted (NC) plant waste, with, high (H) or low (L) yields."

These samples can then be investigated for bacterial content, and tested for correlation.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: basilic85]
    #27144108 - 01/12/21 03:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

basilic85 said:
Quote:

cronicr said:
forget cubes for a moment all together, they likely aren't coprophilic anyway.
Simplify your goal and dumb it down for a moment, what are you trying to achieve?




Very interesting, it could be the key for liberty caps for exemple(simple hypotesis)



Quite the opposite they are very fragile indoors and even naturally , this is why you see them one or two at a time here and there because the mycelium doesnt colonize a lot of area unlike something like a woodlover where you see an entire bed colonized, with libs ive done my best with everything very clean but like most fungi once colonized they seem to hold their own ok but they are slow


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: cronicr]
    #27144844 - 01/12/21 11:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting idea.

I'm curious to see how well you'd  be able to culture the bacteria, regardless if it has a symbiotic effect. It's something that I have been interested in the past and as I set up my lab something I may play with.

I've used various bacterial and fungal products over the years in agriculture on nearly 30 acres/10s of thousands of hemp plants...b. Subtilis, metarhizium anisopliae, bacillus  thuringiensis, Chromobacterium subtsugae, Reynoutria sachalinensis, Bacillus amyloliquefaciens, spinosad...  and probably quite a few more.. all of these are in commercial ag products.
Marrone bio innovations has many of these in their products if your curious about them.

If I could cultivate my own in an LC it could save me lots of $$.

I think that identifying different bacterial populations in manures is a great avenue to direct some energy.


Good luck with your endeavors.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Veggiesandhemp] * 1
    #27149044 - 01/15/21 03:45 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)



After you were going on about trying to use bacteria to your advantage or seeing if it was possible I thought about it. I didn't give much thought to it to be honest, I have other shit going on in life after all. But as I was driving and listening to "Entangled Life" I was on the chapter about lichens. Then some phrase caught my ear and a thought rose up.

He was talking about lichens and how they're a symbiotic relationship between bacteria/algae and a fungus. He then said something like "it doesn't matter the species of either the bacteria or fungus, you can create your own lichen in a matter of days. The key development factor is that the other must provide a service the other cannot. Meaning the fungus must be able to do something the bacteria can't, whereas the bacteria could be photosynthetic and provide energy for the fungus"

He's mostly referring to those photosynthetic relationships in the chapter but if a type of bacteria was able to do something and the fungus able to do something then maybe this contaminated plate is a lichen?

I'm sorry if this is just rambling or whatever but maybe all that's gonna happen is a lichen or something. You're all scientists compared to my stoned ass doing smoke break research, but maybe there's someone to it?


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Wall.E]
    #27149260 - 01/15/21 07:27 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Any contaminate bacteria found on your plate will be just that, unfortunately, a contamination.

In order to find anything worth investigating you'll have to grow out some pans, for instance. Using the sampling scheme above collect samples from within the spent manure substrate and attempt to grow out some colonies on agar:
Once colonies form, streak to new plates to be sent away for sequencing. This will at least tell you whats in the substrate. Isolating those bacteria and culturing them separately on agar to observe the interactions between them and mycelium on agar, well, this is an entirely different problem that will need to be solved.

I may have other options but covid is certainly making things difficult.
Bacterial samples can be sent here for sequencing:

https://www.genewiz.com/en/Public/Services/Sanger-Sequencing/Direct-Colony-Sequencing?sc_device=Mobile

This will develope over time and may certainly fail. As I get a better understanding of the reality of the situation I may find that this is a total dead end, or perhaps not. Either way I'm doing something that I find  interesting.

As far as growing lichens via cubensis mycelium and contaminate bacterial infections....I'm afraid not.

Folks send mycelial samples to Alan for PCR identification. Although this is admittedly more complicated I think that it has potential to add valuable information to our understanding of what's going on behind the scenes.

Edited by Stipe-n Cap (01/15/21 07:37 AM)

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27149314 - 01/15/21 08:22 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not trying to do anything man, the only place that plate is going is the garbage. I'm just providing some clicky my brain had whether right or wrong. Good luck


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Wall.E]
    #27149331 - 01/15/21 08:33 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No offense brother. The medium we're using to communicate doesn't translate tone or inflection. I totally think that those stoned moments of insight are definitely something to pay attention to and communicate, you never know when you're going to get some stoned shower thought that opens up a new door of perception for you or others. Thought experiments are still experiments :thumbup:

I don't mean to sound like a dismissive asshole or anything, I'm just trying to be as to the point as I can get so that there's no misunderstanding, arguing or bickering over minutiae, which can happen from time to time on the boards. Trouble shooting an idea is a matter of trial and error, mostly error, feel free to post your thoughts.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27153806 - 01/17/21 04:07 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Somebody who claims to have a mushroom substrate probiotic containing Bacillus.

https://www.drmyc.com/

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27155076 - 01/18/21 10:07 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

p9hu7 said:
Like I said, if good enough is good enough for you, well, good.

Cubes aren't the focus here, just to be clear. Why do pans need manure? Almost certainly because of bacteria. Cubes, pans, whatever species you care to name will most certainly have formed a symbiotic relationship with bacteria and I am going to try to find out which ones. My starting point is logical, I'll start with known species of bacteria used within the gourmet and agro community, if they fail, well, I'll keep looking.

Yes, you can grow a shit ton of mushrooms, but is that what makes you happy? If it does, good, I on the otherhand have a "lab" and I certainly intend to max out its potential.

So, why bother saying "why bother"? it is what it is. This threads purpose is to experiment with inoculation procedures that venture outside the norm, is it necessary for growing mushrooms? Big nope. Is it fucking cool to think and experiment? Resounding yes.

Even if I fail in my attempts, I have still found an answer.



Have you heard of this product called DRMyc that contains beneficial bacteria etc? It is really good stuff, google it

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Mycostotle]
    #27155078 - 01/18/21 10:08 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Check the post above ; )

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27167092 - 01/24/21 11:26 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Beneficial bacteria sequenced from mycelium grown on fermented woodchips:


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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27167188 - 01/24/21 12:34 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

How did you determine it was "beneficial" also in what capacity does it cause benefits? Have you shown that species performance is better or worse without that other microorganism?

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27167365 - 01/24/21 02:27 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No, this isn't my work and its not my intention to prove something that already has existing data. I'm just posting these as interesting footnotes.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27167389 - 01/24/21 02:37 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well it would be nice to know where the footnotes are coming from and in reference to what. Maybe I missed it but a random chart posted doesn’t really tell me anything of use. This isn’t something I’m super interested in but, I’d still like some Cole’s notes to go with the footnotes. Posting vague references without any specific substance behind them, allowing people to put 2 and 2 together (equals 5 in this instance) to draw some “conclusion” is the kind of nudge nudge junk science we mostly are trying to avoid these days. I’m not suggesting this is the intent but, it is how it comes off. At least to me.

A lot of Pan growers are really into the idea of bacterial relationships being key. I’m skeptical of that however, I also am not really familiar with the genus. If you were able to determine how these bacteria relationships are determined to be positive to the outcome and establish a protocol, it might go a long way to understanding what is or isn’t going on there.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27167402 - 01/24/21 02:46 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
A lot of Pan growers are really into the idea of bacterial relationships being key. I’m skeptical of that however, I also am not really familiar with the genus. If you were able to determine how these bacteria relationships are determined to be positive to the outcome and establish a protocol, it might go a long way to understanding what is or isn’t going on there.




I just noticed that I had only referenced one source in the OP, I was certain that I had listed more but ill get on that now. Thanks for pointing that out.

These references will obviously be for gourmet species though, there isn't any existing data for actives as far as I'm aware but I that's the point of this thread.

As far as that particular info graphic I'll have to scare up the source but I'll get on that as well.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap] * 1
    #27167444 - 01/24/21 03:10 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Updated OP with some source references and protocol for investigation.

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27323242 - 05/25/21 10:40 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

Any updates? Been thinking of similar experiment for years now. Recently settled to pasteurize a manure containing sub, wait a week, run sterile h2o through it and plate the liquid

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: lop]
    #27349626 - 06/15/21 04:58 PM (2 years, 9 months ago)

I've been shut down so I don't have a working lab atm, however I should be up and running soon.

Have you considered sending your bacterial culture in for identification?

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
    #27915959 - 08/24/22 03:06 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Have you heard of DrMyc's mgp plus?

Its a mix of bacteria supposedly increases yields, quicker pins, while reducing contams. Sounds kind of like snake oil tbh. But might be worth a try. Maybe find out a)if it works and b) what bacteria is in it

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Re: Axenic inoculation versus symbiotic bacterial inoculation [Re: Kulphrix]
    #27921370 - 08/27/22 02:35 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

I've heard of it; but as far as I know he/they don't list any ingredients on their site or on the packaging. A list of species, etc, would be helpful and honest.

From the looks of his website I'd wager that this Dr Myc fellow is a huckster until proven otherwise. Bacterial inoculations are a thing, however hucksters like this take the topic to fringe noob territory which causes me to make an unaproving face much like this:



Asian countries have been using beneficial microbes for some time now, it's unfortunate that this noob ass western culture has to noob everything up.

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