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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
Loc: Portland
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: natedawgnow]
#26869143 - 08/07/20 08:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Do you have to enter black peoples homes with a gun since we’re in the middle of a race war?
They've actually been some of if not my best customers. Way down to earth, practical, pragmatic people. At least the ones I've worked with.
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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 08:57 PM)
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26869363 - 08/08/20 12:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
The issue was the "lethal dose of fentanyl" bullshit that you can't stop spewing. To cover your ass, you've come up with this theory that he just ingested a bunch right before the police got there, but that's just an idea that's in your brain, and has nothing to do with the autopsy report.
I read the autopsy report. I'm not sure how you can make such a statement. We're looking for answers because there are no definitive ones yet.
Ironically, you're accusing me of assuming something when my only position is we should assume nothing. Whether or not he managed to survive such a high dose of fentanyl is not relevant to the fact he likely had a lethal amount in his system for an average body.
Sort of like how there's no definitive answer as to what killed Abraham Lincoln. Maybe it was a gunshot or maybe he already had a hole in his head when he got to the theater and it was a pure coincidence he died at the same time the gun went off.
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djbluntmagic
Stranger


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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Kizzle]
#26869372 - 08/08/20 01:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kizzle said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
The issue was the "lethal dose of fentanyl" bullshit that you can't stop spewing. To cover your ass, you've come up with this theory that he just ingested a bunch right before the police got there, but that's just an idea that's in your brain, and has nothing to do with the autopsy report.
I read the autopsy report. I'm not sure how you can make such a statement. We're looking for answers because there are no definitive ones yet.
Ironically, you're accusing me of assuming something when my only position is we should assume nothing. Whether or not he managed to survive such a high dose of fentanyl is not relevant to the fact he likely had a lethal amount in his system for an average body.
Sort of like how there's no definitive answer as to what killed Abraham Lincoln.
Not really, no.
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Kryptos
Stranger

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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: djbluntmagic]
#26869405 - 08/08/20 02:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, did we do a complete autopsy? Maybe Lincoln had a fatal overdose of fentanyl in his system at the time?
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Kryptos]
#26869456 - 08/08/20 03:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Did he die FROM a hole in his head, or WITH a hole in his head?
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit



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Posts: 106,308
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26869460 - 08/08/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
koods said: Do you have to enter black peoples homes with a gun since we’re in the middle of a race war?
They've actually been some of if not my best customers. Way down to earth, practical, pragmatic people. At least the ones I've worked with.
I’m sure they are, but we are at war!
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26869473 - 08/08/20 04:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
The issue was the "lethal dose of fentanyl" bullshit that you can't stop spewing. To cover your ass, you've come up with this theory that he just ingested a bunch right before the police got there, but that's just an idea that's in your brain, and has nothing to do with the autopsy report.
I read the autopsy report. I'm not sure how you can make such a statement. We're looking for answers because there are no definitive ones yet.
Ironically, you're accusing me of assuming something when my only position is we should assume nothing. Whether or not he managed to survive such a high dose of fentanyl is not relevant to the fact he likely had a lethal amount in his system for an average body.
We have no idea if he had a "high dose of fentanyl" in his system, correct? So why claim he had a "lethal amount in his system"? People that are about to OD on fentanyl are not even conscious, they don't drive to stores to buy items, they don't walk around, they don't even talk. So this lethal dose theory is pure nonsense, try again.
https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/
“Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of fentanyl levels (death dose) was wide, from 0.75 to 113 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL; nevertheless, the distributions of fentanyl levels were statistically the same, whether fentanyl was the only drug in the toxicology or one of several synergistic co-intoxicants. This suggests that fentanyl presence alone seems to be sufficient to cause death, which are findings similar to those found in Sorg et al., 2016.”
Let’s see if we can understand what we are being told. Fentanyl is itself so toxic that it is sufficient to kill without help from other dangerous drugs in the cocktail. People who died from fentanyl overdose had readings from 0.75 ng/mL to an astounding 113 ng/mL. The average death dose was 9.96 ng/mL.
According to George Floyd’s toxicology report, his blood contained 11.0 ng/mL Fentanyl, PLUS 5.6 ng/mL norfentanyl, 19 ng/mL of methamphetamine, and three other drugs."
6 drug cocktail. Honestly, I'm kind of impressed.
Why don't you quote the autopsy report, word for word? Because it would show you are full of shit on the fentanyl.
Now on to your assertion that we are in a race war. I have two points.
1. Most of the protesters are white.
2. At my job there are at least 400 people there per shift. Depending on the day of the week, about 65-75% of them are black. We work together 10.5 hours per day. I have witnessed no indication at all of racial hostilities, let alone a race war.
The ideas that are in your head are just in YOUR head, and whatever wack job websites you get your information from.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
Loc: Portland
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Brian Jones]
#26869651 - 08/08/20 08:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why don't you quote the autopsy report, word for word?
Why don't you?
As it stands I've provided evidence for my position and you've shown nothing of substance.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421] 2
#26869772 - 08/08/20 09:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Both autopsies say he was murdered. Neither autopsy says anything about underlying conditions or drugs being anything important to the cause of death. Anyone would have died if they were choked like that.
The charging document which most people had confused for the autopsy was worded to give police the benefit of the doubt. Like when they bust a weed grow and say its 100 pounds because they weighed all the equipment too.
The bodycam footage does paint a different picture. I thought the cops should be arrested and charged. Now i think they should be stoned in public
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 2,162
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: bodhisatta]
#26869810 - 08/08/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Let's discuss the actual legality of what happened to Floyd.
The cop approached and detained Floyd for questioning. He is legally allowed to do this. The first thing he asked to see was Floyd's hands. This is a reasonable request. He had to ask Floyd like 5 times before he showed his hands, which is why he pulled the gun out.
This is from Minneapolis's government website relating to what falls under, "Use of Force" and qualifies for arrest:
5-300 Use of Force 5-301 PURPOSE (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (07/28/16)
A. Sanctity of life and the protection of the public shall be the cornerstones of the MPD’s use of force policy. B. The purpose of this chapter is to provide all sworn MPD employees with clear and consistent policies and procedures regarding the use of force while engaged in the discharge of their official duties. (Note: MPD Training Unit Lesson Plans – Use of Force, are used as a reference throughout this chapter.) 5-301.01 POLICY (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
Based on the Fourth Amendment’s “reasonableness” standard, sworn MPD employees shall only use the amount of force that is objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances known to that employee at the time force is used. The force used shall be consistent with current MPD training.
5-302 USE OF FORCE DEFINITIONS (10/16/02) (10/01/10) (Skipping a few on the list. Feel free to check the site out.)
...Active Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
...Passive Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.
Floyd was legally detained for questioning, refused to show his hands after being asked multiple times, this resulted in escalation on the part of the police. The police also got the tip that Floyd was likely drunk or on drugs and they ran his license plates so they likely had his criminal history.
The only real question left is, was it unlawful for the police officer to ask Floyd to show his hands during his detainment? Detainment is legal and if you don't comply with officers when detained, they are legally able to exercise Use of Force on you to get you to comply.
As far as I can tell, you have the right to remain silent, but do you have the right to not show the officer your hands when asked while detained?
Legally, am I missing anything here?
The only part of the entire encounter that I find to be upsetting is the knee on the neck. I don't see how legally anything was done wrong, but I'm willing to amend my position if someone can prove otherwise, legally.
This is all secondary to me though, I already made my main point which still stands: None of this was about race.
EDIT: Youtube removed the video footage from "Trending" even though it has like 5 million views now. As usual if actual evidence doesn't support their narrative they are trying to create they hide the evidence.
Edited by Vahn421 (08/08/20 10:18 AM)
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26869837 - 08/08/20 10:24 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Police chiefs across Central Pa. said their officers are not instructed to use the knee-on-neck restraint that a Minneapolis cop used against a handcuffed man for several minutes until he died in a now-viral video that outraged the nation.
George Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, was held down Monday by the Minneapolis officer’s knee as Floyd repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. Bystanders begged the officer to stop but the officer continued for several minutes even after Floyd apparently went unconscious. Meanwhile three other officers stood by and did not intervene. All four were later fired by the police chief."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pennlive.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-case-pa-police-chiefs-condemn-officers-knee-on-neck-method-seen-in-viral-video.html%3foutputType=amp
I feel like your argument is the same as questioning why an officer who shoots someone in the head would be getting charged with 2nd or 3rd degree murder. I even feel like 1st degree murder is a more suitable charge. But to clear up why shooting someone in the head is not a technique used by officers unless purely for self defense in which lethal force is clearly necessary is because it is not a useful technique to simply subdue a criminal as it will more then often kill or seriously injure the criminal being detained. Criminal being a word reserved for post trial as all subjects are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
So banning an officer from shooting a suspect in the back of the head with a pistol to detain him is clearly illegal use of force and can lead to a murder charge. We understand that? Also using a persons knee to hold a suspect down to prevent him from getting up and possibly severely hurting him by putting all your weight on one spot of the suspects chest where his breathing would be obviously constricted is unlawful police force and can lead to a murder charge if used as a detainment technique.
Also to be honest the police departments entire use of de escalation training was piss poor as fuck in this entire scenario to begin with.
So are we on the same page?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,308
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421] 2
#26869892 - 08/08/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Chavin was told by another officer he could not find a pulse. Chavin continued to kneel on his neck for another two minutes. Justify that.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/08/20 11:05 AM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,890
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: koods] 1
#26869900 - 08/08/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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They wanted to make sure he couldn't be resuscitated. That seems to be chavins justification
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#26869921 - 08/08/20 11:32 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Dead men don’t sue for excessive force
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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qman
Stranger

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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26870422 - 08/08/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said: Let's discuss the actual legality of what happened to Floyd.
The cop approached and detained Floyd for questioning. He is legally allowed to do this. The first thing he asked to see was Floyd's hands. This is a reasonable request. He had to ask Floyd like 5 times before he showed his hands, which is why he pulled the gun out.
This is from Minneapolis's government website relating to what falls under, "Use of Force" and qualifies for arrest:
5-300 Use of Force 5-301 PURPOSE (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (07/28/16)
A. Sanctity of life and the protection of the public shall be the cornerstones of the MPD’s use of force policy. B. The purpose of this chapter is to provide all sworn MPD employees with clear and consistent policies and procedures regarding the use of force while engaged in the discharge of their official duties. (Note: MPD Training Unit Lesson Plans – Use of Force, are used as a reference throughout this chapter.) 5-301.01 POLICY (10/16/02) (08/17/07)
Based on the Fourth Amendment’s “reasonableness” standard, sworn MPD employees shall only use the amount of force that is objectively reasonable in light of the facts and circumstances known to that employee at the time force is used. The force used shall be consistent with current MPD training.
5-302 USE OF FORCE DEFINITIONS (10/16/02) (10/01/10) (Skipping a few on the list. Feel free to check the site out.)
...Active Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control. (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
...Passive Resistance: A response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.
Floyd was legally detained for questioning, refused to show his hands after being asked multiple times, this resulted in escalation on the part of the police. The police also got the tip that Floyd was likely drunk or on drugs and they ran his license plates so they likely had his criminal history.
The only real question left is, was it unlawful for the police officer to ask Floyd to show his hands during his detainment? Detainment is legal and if you don't comply with officers when detained, they are legally able to exercise Use of Force on you to get you to comply.
As far as I can tell, you have the right to remain silent, but do you have the right to not show the officer your hands when asked while detained?
Legally, am I missing anything here?
The only part of the entire encounter that I find to be upsetting is the knee on the neck. I don't see how legally anything was done wrong, but I'm willing to amend my position if someone can prove otherwise, legally.
This is all secondary to me though, I already made my main point which still stands: None of this was about race.
EDIT: Youtube removed the video footage from "Trending" even though it has like 5 million views now. As usual if actual evidence doesn't support their narrative they are trying to create they hide the evidence.
Wrong, the police can't legally detain citizens for questioning, where do you think we live? In North Korea.
Also, citizens that haven't committed a crime don't legally have to show their hands, that is a request, not a lawful order unless it's an arrest.
Floyd's detainment wasn't legal, he had committed no crime and hadn't been accused of a crime. A few minutes before his death, one of the cops said he was under arrest for forgery. That was a made up charge to cover their asses.
So what are you missing here? You're make huge assumptions about what is legal and what isn't. Yes, the police constantly violate rights, so you're just assuming it's legal. The cops fucked up every aspect of this case.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



Registered: 06/06/07
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: qman]
#26870712 - 08/08/20 09:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is a common misconception I am surprised Enlil did not correct.
While it is true that a police officer cannot detain you without suspicion of a crime, the officer can detain you for suspicion of a crime without telling you what crime they suspect you of committing.
Of course your 1st and 2nd amendment rights protect you from having to answer questions without the officer suspecting you of committing a crime but the officer can suspect any crime just about and say to you "I am detaining you to ascertain that no crime is being committed" and you have to comply or you are subject to arrest for preventing an officer from doing his duty. Failure to allow an officer to arrest you can result in a charge or resisting arrest.
Under your 5th amendment right you can plead the 5th. In fact you have the right to remain silent you don't have to say shit at all you don't even have to quote your amendment rights. Why then if a cop can basically make up any crime he suspects you of committing and detain you are your amendment rights important? What is the point if you cannot stop a detainment by stating that the cop has not legally given you a reason to justify searching you or detaining you and has not stated the crime he or she suspects you of committing? Well everything is on camera now and all of this goes to court so it does matter quite a bite to assert your rights.
But no despite about a thousand youtube videos showing people refusing to let cops detain them for the officer not stating what crime they suspect you of committing under I believe your 1st amendment rights and while a smart cop will let you go if they have no real reason to detain you an officer does in fact not have to state what statute you are breaking to prove what crime they suspect you of committing. They can stop you. Ask if you consent to a search. You can refuse. They can search anyway even without your consent. You cannot do a damn thing about it. Except in court show you asserted your rights and that all the cops did not go by the book and it will matter.
If they find a dead body in your car it may be harder to get it thrown out in court and they will try to get you to take a plea bargain a million times to save the court time and money. But yes in the interest of the citizen making the cops do their job while you assert your rights and making them follow protocol gives you a much better chance in court.
Too bad George Floyd is not alive. His family however sueing the city is.
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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1uptoadstool
procrastinator



Registered: 09/01/19
Posts: 324
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26872644 - 08/10/20 02:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Out of the 30-50 million interactions that the police had with the American public last year, 10 million people were arrested, and less than 0.01 percent were shot and killed by the police. Out of those 10 million people arrested, 47 of those shot and killed were unarmed, which equates to 0.00047 percent, 17 of which were black.
last year 49 people were stuck by lighting let that sink in. Blacks 4 times more likely to get stuck by lightning then get shot by a cop
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: 1uptoadstool] 2
#26872696 - 08/10/20 04:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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49 people were killed by lightening. How many were struck by lightening? How many were black? Vague numbers don't sink they float. I 'm thinking the number of blacks hit by lightening is going to be elusive.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,308
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 3 hours, 59 seconds
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: 1uptoadstool]
#26872911 - 08/10/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
1uptoadstool said: Out of the 30-50 million interactions that the police had with the American public last year, 10 million people were arrested, and less than 0.01 percent were shot and killed by the police. Out of those 10 million people arrested, 47 of those shot and killed were unarmed, which equates to 0.00047 percent, 17 of which were black.
last year 49 people were stuck by lighting let that sink in. Blacks 4 times more likely to get stuck by lightning then get shot by a cop
Lightning doesn’t work for the taxpayer
Who care if they were armed or not. Funny how the second ammendment doesn’t apply when it’s not convenient. “He has a gun” is not a legal justification for police murder in a country where you have a right to bear arms.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/10/20 09:09 AM)
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Tulipslave
Homo sapiens sapiens, lol

Registered: 07/25/17
Posts: 11,370
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Re: Full leaked bodycam footage of George Floyd's arrest paints a very different picture. [Re: Vahn421]
#26872958 - 08/10/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said: AND CRIMINALS WITH A VIOLENT HISTORY ON DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS.
and criminals with violent histories not on drugs are dangerous, and non-criminals with non-violent histories are dangerous, and so on
make sense?
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