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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26868642 - 08/07/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
What double standard?
Articulate the point that you think is obvious




Your justification for attacking the truck for safety reasons is the justification for a lot of police brutality that needs to be stopped. "I was threatened." blah blah. I'm surprised this needs saying and even more surprised I'm the one to say it.

Ya see, the thing is I've never been against cleaning up the police force. It needs to happen. I'm just not naive enough to believe the majority of cops are corrupt. They are the minority and they need to be dealt with.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26868681 - 08/07/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Love you too, champ


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26868697 - 08/07/20 04:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
What double standard?
Articulate the point that you think is obvious




Your justification for attacking the truck for safety reasons is the justification for a lot of police brutality that needs to be stopped. "I was threatened." blah blah. I'm surprised this needs saying and even more surprised I'm the one to say it.

Ya see, the thing is I've never been against cleaning up the police force. It needs to happen. I'm just not naive enough to believe the majority of cops are corrupt. They are the minority and they need to be dealt with.




I see.
Your complaint is that I don't hold civilians to the same standard as trained police whose job, which they hold voluntarily, is to protect the public, in terms of assessing and responding to threats.

Tough titty

Edit: I don't understand why tou are crying about this.  Those protesters acted within the universal law of justice as you have described it


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Edited by ballsalsa (08/07/20 04:14 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26868722 - 08/07/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Yes, a slow moving vehicle might be perceived as a threat.  Does that give anyone the right to start smashing it up?



I would say, given the current environment of protest in the USA, that a malicious vehicular attack on protesters is a very credible threat. That doesn't grant anyone the right to start smashing up vehicles, but at what point would protesters be justified in responding to a perceived threat by disabling the unknown vehicle?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He didn't 'drive into' anyone, and didn't floor it before his truck started being smashed in.



He didn't drive into the crowd? Why wasn't reversing an option? Even if the driver was unjustifiable attacked, that doesn't justify their reckless decision to speed into the crowd rather than speed away in reverse.




Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I was agreeing that the attack of the truck itself is what provoked the dangerous response (that's clear from the video).  Regardless, what's the make believe outside of make believing that truck's intent was to run protesters over?



Is it clear? You are the person who refuses to acknowledge that Russia invaded Ukraine or that (apparently) China is putting Uighur muslims into concentration camps because - despite copious amounts of circumstantial evidence - there is no objective proof. Do you have hard proof for your make believe of this persons intentions? The video could equally depict a driver intending to creep up slowly to a crowd before flooring it which was prevented from success by the quick thinking of the individuals who slashed the tires. We don't know - the video doesn't have enough information - but I know there has been dozens of vehicular attacks on the protests following George Floyd's murder so it's not entirely unreasonable conjecture.

If we assume neither groups were acting maliciously, the drivers response to an erroneously perceived threat of physical harm recklessly endangered the lives of an entire crowd of people; the protesters response to an erroneously perceived threat of physical harm consisted of property destruction that would disable a vehicle from continuing to move.


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26868736 - 08/07/20 04:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Fal screams make believe at everybody else until it comes to his own assertions
about peoples intentions, true meanings of their words, etc. At that point he claims it's "obvious what they meant"

Truly ridiculous.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26868872 - 08/07/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Fal screams make believe at everybody else until it comes to his own assertions
about peoples intentions, true meanings of their words, etc. At that point he claims it's "obvious what they meant"

Truly ridiculous.



Can you please link to your example?  "Fal's a big fat make believer" isn't a very good argument.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow] * 3
    #26868879 - 08/07/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Really want qman to answer this so ill quote again
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

qman said:

A mob doesn't get to justify preemptive violent on a vehicle because of previous attacks from vehicles in the past, it doesn't work that way.



Except that is exactly the justification police give for using excessive force.

"Oh we deal with dangerous people all the time, prior history dictates that we treat everybody like violent criminals"

How can you say presumption of imminent danger based on historical precedent works for some but not others?







It doesn't matter if it's the police or a mob, preemptive violence against a person based on their particular demographic is morally bankrupt behavior.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26868882 - 08/07/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Intent is not relevant.  Nobody has accused the driver of making a vehicle attack against protesters, only of acting in ways consistent with past terrorists. 

Those protesters are not military personnel with training in identifying and engaging targets carefully.  They are regular citizens engaged in their protected speech and assembly activities.  When credibly threatened they are not required to wait until fired upon or any other restriction of like kind.



Can I use that excuse to punch a black man walking near me that I'm afraid of?  After all, I"m not a cop trained to know when a black person is actually going to harm me, and black people have been known to harm people before.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
How does moving aside help you if I roll down the window and shoot you like the guy in Austin did?



So I can just attack anyone who I think might do me harm?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26868915 - 08/07/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Yes, a slow moving vehicle might be perceived as a threat.  Does that give anyone the right to start smashing it up?



I would say, given the current environment of protest in the USA, that a malicious vehicular attack on protesters is a very credible threat.



Sure a "malicious vehicular attack on protesters" would be a credible threat.

Now let's get back on topic to the video we were actually talking about.  Did you find a different angle where he "maliciously attacked" anyone before he himself was attacked?  If so, case closed, I'll agree with the others here.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
He didn't 'drive into' anyone, and didn't floor it before his truck started being smashed in.



He didn't drive into the crowd? Why wasn't reversing an option?



He didn't run over any protesters.  Perhaps reversing would have been the best option if he assumed Vahn was correct that these were nothing more than thugs out to damage personal property.  But clearly not everyone agrees with Vahn, and he may not even have been frightened until after he started getting attacked.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I was agreeing that the attack of the truck itself is what provoked the dangerous response (that's clear from the video).  Regardless, what's the make believe outside of make believing that truck's intent was to run protesters over?



Is it clear?



What did he do that was dangerous before he was attacked, other than drive on a public road?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You are the person who refuses to acknowledge that Russia invaded Ukraine



It depends on your definition of "invasion".  I acknowledge that Russia sided with the 95% of Crimeans who wanted to return Crimea to its original country after a Western backed coup of their elected President. "Invade" seems like a poor word choice, since there was no fighting in Crimea (why would they fight when 95% wanted to go back to Russia?)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...or that (apparently) China is putting Uighur muslims into concentration camps because - despite copious amounts of circumstantial evidence - there is no objective proof.



I agreed they're taking them to them to concentration camps to teach them how to better integrate into Chines society.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Do you have hard proof for your make believe of this persons intentions?



I don't know that person's intentions.  I've been asking if anyone has proof his intentions were bad, and so far I haven't seen anything.  Maybe you can help?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The video could equally depict a driver intending to creep up slowly to a crowd before flooring it which was prevented from success by the quick thinking of the individuals who slashed the tires. We don't know - the video doesn't have enough information



Good, we agree that others here are make believing they know intent.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26868916 - 08/07/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:Can you please link to your example?  "Fal's a big fat make believer" isn't a very good argument.




Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

I was agreeing that the attack of the truck itself is what provoked the dangerous response (that's clear from the video). 





How do you know it was a response and not something he was going to do regardless of the protesters actions? Were you the truck driver in the video? If not are you a mind reader? The only thing that is clear is exactly what the video shows, not what anyone in the video was thinking at the time.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26868920 - 08/07/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You can attack anyone that a reasonable person would agree acted in such a way as to pose a credible threat of serious injury or death.  If you think a jury will agree that it is reasonable to punch a random black man on the street then you are welcome to try it out.

Edit: you are fixated on intent and keep bringing it up to muddy the waters on this topic but as I've mentioned several times and will continue to mention, intent is utterly irrelevant to the issue of protesters defending themselves. 


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #26868927 - 08/07/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
How do you know it was a response and not something he was going to do regardless of the protesters actions? Were you the truck driver in the video? If not are you a mind reader? The only thing that is clear is exactly what the video shows, not what anyone in the video was thinking at the time.



If wanted to run people over, why didn't he?  Especially after he got attacked.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26868933 - 08/07/20 07:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
How do you know it was a response and not something he was going to do regardless of the protesters actions? Were you the truck driver in the video? If not are you a mind reader? The only thing that is clear is exactly what the video shows, not what anyone in the video was thinking at the time.



If wanted to run people over, why didn't he?  Especially after he got attacked.



I don't know, I'm not going to make believe. Can you prove that the protesters provoked that response or are you make believing?


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26868957 - 08/07/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Fal screams make believe at everybody else until it comes to his own assertions
about peoples intentions, true meanings of their words, etc. At that point he claims it's "obvious what they meant"

Truly ridiculous.



Can you please link to your example?  "Fal's a big fat make believer" isn't a very good argument.



Dude you've been doing it all over this sub.

In this thread you have played make believe concerning the drivers intent.
In other threads you have made believe about the true meaning of trumps own words.
You are not a mind reader as far as I know

You make believe lots of shit yet you call others make believers every chance you get.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #26868958 - 08/07/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It depends on the level of proof you're looking for.

If you want 100% scientific proof, no, of course I can't do that.

If you want reasonable proof then the fact that he didn't attempt to run anyone over, even after getting attacked, is pretty good.


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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26868959 - 08/07/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It depends on the level of proof you're looking for.

If you want 100% scientific proof, no, of course I can't do that.

If you want reasonable proof then the fact that he didn't attempt to run anyone over, even after getting attacked, is pretty good.




I'm looking for the same level of proof you demand from others.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26868979 - 08/07/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you please link to your example?  "Fal's a big fat make believer" isn't a very good argument.



Dude you've been doing it all over this sub.

In this thread you have played make believe concerning the drivers intent.



No, I've argued we DON'T know the drivers' intent.  Right here I said "I don't know that person's intentions.  I've been asking if anyone has proof his intentions were bad, and so far I haven't seen anything."

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
In other threads you have made believe about the true meaning of trumps own words.
You are not a mind reader as far as I know



I go by what Trump says he means, not by what the media says he means.  :shrug:

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
You make believe lots of shit yet you call others make believers every chance you get.



Like what?  You just swung and missed twice.  Any links to actual make believe?

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
I'm looking for the same level of proof you demand from others.



Cool.  My standard is pretty low.  I just want something more than make believe.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKwyjibo
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26868983 - 08/07/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Cool.  My standard is pretty low.  I just want something more than make believe.



So you have something more than make believe regarding the drivers intentions?


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26868994 - 08/07/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Can you please link to your example?  "Fal's a big fat make believer" isn't a very good argument.



Dude you've been doing it all over this sub.

In this thread you have played make believe concerning the drivers intent.



No, I've argued we DON'T know the drivers' intent.  Right here I said "I don't know that person's intentions.  I've been asking if anyone has proof his intentions were bad, and so far I haven't seen anything."

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
In other threads you have made believe about the true meaning of trumps own words.
You are not a mind reader as far as I know



I go by what Trump says he means, not by what the media says he means.  :shrug:

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
You make believe lots of shit yet you call others make believers every chance you get.



Like what?  You just swung and missed twice.  Any links to actual make believe?

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
I'm looking for the same level of proof you demand from others.



Cool.  My standard is pretty low.  I just want something more than make believe.



Dude now youre being dishonest. Trump never said anything, his press secretary claimed he did.

His exact words were what they were.

And yes you did make believe the drivers intent dude. Not gonna sit here and get
into a bullshit semantics argument with you


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #26869001 - 08/07/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kwyjibo said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Cool.  My standard is pretty low.  I just want something more than make believe.



So you have something more than make believe regarding the drivers intentions?



I've posted MANY times I don't know the drivers intentions.  I'm pointing out that others who say they do are make believing.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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