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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
#26868375 - 08/07/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Vahn421 said:
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shivas.wisdom said: whereas the protesters took reasonable action to neutralize the possible threat without causing disproportionate physical harm.
No. It is likely the attack itself provoked the dangerous response.
That's conjecture on your part. I could equally say that slashing the vehicles tires prevented the driver from successfully pulling off their intended attack. I guess both our opinions cancel themselves out. So lets give both views the benefit of the doubt and examine the evidence of the video:
From what the video shows, the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the driver of the truck physically endangered the lives of many people who were not directly involved with damaging his vehicle, whereas the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the protesters did not physically endanger anyone - perhaps some glass shards could have cut the occupants of the vehicle but it was all property destruction. From what the video shows, assuming both groups were acting in self-defence (a claim that could be considered valid for both parties), the driver of the truck took reckless action that physically endangered the lives of numerous uninvolved people, whereas the protesters took reasonable action to neutralize the possible threat without causing disproportionate physical harm.
Do you dispute any of this description?
And I would appreciate an answer to this question: at what point would the protesters have been justified in taking self-defensive action?
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qman
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26868376 - 08/07/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: Whether I would be irate or not isn't the issue. His motivation is not a factor in determining if violent self-defense is justified. Self defense is predicated on a reasonable fear of death or serious injury. There have been several high profile attacks against protesters from vehicles in recent days. In that context it is reasonable to fear a vehicle approaching rather than moving away from a group of protest marchers. He could, in actuality, have been mother theresa and because there is no way for the protest marchers to know that their fear would be reasonable and reaction justified. The only person in this scenario that acted unreasonably is the driver who failed to yield to pedestrians in the roadway despite having an unobstructed view of them.
Yes, reasonable fear is justifiable by the protesters, but attacking a car isn't the appropriate action for that potential fear. Do you know what's a reasonable action for that fear in that case? Run away.
A mob doesn't get to justify preemptive violent on a vehicle because of previous attacks from vehicles in the past, it doesn't work that way.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
#26868378 - 08/07/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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This seems so obvious.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868382 - 08/07/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said:
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Vahn421 said: You've brought up a good point relative to semantics. So to be clear, I don't think anyone is advocating or arguing for driving into a crowd of people just because they are there, but there are definitely reasons for escaping violence. In the video I posted where they both flatten his tire and break his windshield, his reaction was justifiable. I'll honk my horn and hope everyone gets out of the fuckin road, hell, I'd even try to avoid hitting anyone by swerving best I could, but I'm going through because my life is more important to me than theirs is, and I know they feel the same way about mine. Why hold myself to a higher moral standard than they are?
"I don't think anyone is advocating or arguing for driving into a crowd of people just because they are there"
"I'll honk my horn and hope everyone gets out of the fuckin road, hell, I'd even try to avoid hitting anyone by swerving best I could, but I'm going through because my life is more important to me than theirs is"
Nope, still not clear. There have been multiple high-profile vehicular homicides recently - if the driver was justified, why were the protesters not justified in their reaction as well? At what point would the protesters have been justified in taking self-defensive action?
From what the video shows, the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the driver of the truck physically endangered the lives of many people who were not directly involved with damaging his vehicle, whereas the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the protesters did not physically endanger anyone - perhaps some glass shards could have cut the occupants of the vehicle but it was all property destruction. From what the video shows, assuming both groups were acting in self-defence (a claim that could be considered valid for both parties), the driver of the truck took reckless action that physically endangered the lives of numerous uninvolved people, whereas the protesters took reasonable action to neutralize the possible threat without causing disproportionate physical harm.
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Vahn421 said: There are other justifications for trying to creep through a crowd slowly that may range from your wife being pregnant and in labor in the car or your son having a seizure. You may be passing out from lack of insulin. Sure, they are extreme examples, but it illustrates a vital point, especially when protesters block thousands of cars at a time on the freeway with no way to escape.
Wouldn't turning around and taking an alternative route be a more reasonable, and very likely quicker, response? Ya'know, just like how you would respond to any other unexpected hazard blocking the road - or would you actually drive your vehicle into a fallen tree or electrical pole because of "your wife being pregnant and in labor in the car or your son having a seizure"?
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Vahn421 said: As for the "effectiveness" of protesting, we can even set the morality of it aside for second and just look at the manifested results traffic blocking is creating... they are making more enemies than allies. Morality may be arbitrary but "cause and effect" is indeed a real thing regardless... and "getting attention" the way they are may not be bringing about a useful cause and effect for the protesters. Attention isn't necessarily always a positive thing.
Basically, you just lost any potential ally that is stuck on the freeway and had to take a massive shit. 
Someone who is more bothered by the inconvenience of traffic than the injustice of police murder was never an ally in the first place. We'll have more success from making ignoring police murder a bigger inconvenience, to these types of people, than the inconvenience of having to actually address the issue.
No, if I'm cornered and being attacked for no valid reason, I'm go longer responsible for the injures in my escape. That burden is now assumed by the attackers, not the victim seeking safety.
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natedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
#26868386 - 08/07/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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qman said:
A mob doesn't get to justify preemptive violent on a vehicle because of previous attacks from vehicles in the past, it doesn't work that way.
Except that is exactly the justification police give for using excessive force.
"Oh we deal with dangerous people all the time, prior history dictates that we treat everybody like violent criminals"
How can you say presumption of imminent danger based on historical precedent works for some but not others?
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868388 - 08/07/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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And I would appreciate an answer to this question: at what point would the protesters have been justified in taking self-defensive action?
At any time. And the easiest way to do that is to step out of the road. Why they are complicating it by resorting to violence is beyond me. If the protesters perceive a truck to be threat, they are either insane or suicidal to not move. They could just let the truck go by, neutralize the threat, not wind up on national news, and I'd actually approve of their protest because they wouldn't be blocking traffic for no god damn good reason.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26868389 - 08/07/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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MagicMush123 said: Nah dude. If a car is slowing approaching like in the video, you should get out of the way. They had ample time to move. This wasn't some car barreling down the road straight for them, this was a slowly approaching vehicle. What if he was just trying to get home for fuck sakes? Whatever happened to the duty to retreat?

See here
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Vahn421 said: See, the thing about this I find funny is that if protesters are worried about their lives, they'd be running, not provoking a guy (by breaking his truck) who may or may have a gun in his car and may or may not run over you. 

See, the thing about this I find funny is that if drivers are worried about their lives, they'd be backing up, not provoking a group of people (by driving into them) who may or may have a gun and may or may not kill you. 
Works both ways.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
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Vahn421 said: It is likely the attack itself provoked the dangerous response.
Why does Antifa and company always think they things they do neutralize threats when they are just provoking larger ones?
The thinking is so backwards. They really need to go get some more real life experience. We're really living in clown world.

I can also make believe. Slashing the vehicles tires disabled the vehicle and prevented the driver from successfully pulling off their planned attack. Can you explain why your conjecture is less make believe than mine?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
#26868391 - 08/07/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm a slow runner, always have been. As a young boy, I resigned myself to pretty much always having to fight rather than run away, no matter how overmatched, for this reason. I've known some fast sprinters. None of them could outrun a truck
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natedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow]
#26868392 - 08/07/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Really want qman to answer this so ill quote again
Quote:
natedawgnow said:
Quote:
qman said:
A mob doesn't get to justify preemptive violent on a vehicle because of previous attacks from vehicles in the past, it doesn't work that way.
Except that is exactly the justification police give for using excessive force.
"Oh we deal with dangerous people all the time, prior history dictates that we treat everybody like violent criminals"
How can you say presumption of imminent danger based on historical precedent works for some but not others?
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
#26868393 - 08/07/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: I'm a slow runner, always have been. As a young boy, I resigned myself to pretty much always having to fight rather than run away, no matter how overmatched, for this reason. I've known some fast sprinters. None of them could outrun a truck
You don't have to fight or run away. You just have to take two steps back. 
I genuinely believe that Antifa and the protesters are looking to CREATE conflict, which is why stepping out of the road isn't even an option for them and they'll STILL pretend to be the victims.
They're not victims for standing in the road when they think a "violent truck" is coming. They're just fucking idiots. Really. The bottom of the gene pool.
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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 01:37 PM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman] 1
#26868397 - 08/07/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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qman said: No, if I'm cornered and being attacked for no valid reason, I'm go longer responsible for the injures in my escape. That burden is now assumed by the attackers, not the victim seeking safety.
You can't just spray a gun into a crowd because someone in that crowd attacked you. Why is driving a vehicle into a crowd because someone in that crowd attacked you different?
Besides, I didn't see a cornered vehicle. Why wasn't backing up an option?
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MagicMush123
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868398 - 08/07/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said: Besides, a slow moving vehicle doesn't remove it as a threat. Not only can they unexpectedly accelerate (in fact, this has been the case in more than a few recently), but a slow-moving vehicle - especially in a dense crowd - is still a risk in itself.
A protest in the street should be treated like any other hazard blocking the road - you don't try to slowly creep through it, you turn around and find an alternative route. Just because a vehicle has the ability to slowly push through a bunch of people in a way that it couldn't with a fallen power line or flooded road doesn't suddenly mean "push through the hazard" become the appropriate response.
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There have been at least 66 incidents of cars driving into protesters from May 27 to July 6, including 59 by civilians and seven by law enforcement, according to Ari Weil, a terrorism researcher at the University of Chicago's Project on Security and Threats.
There have been two fatalities – in Seattle and in Bakersfield, California – and at least 24 of the civilian cases have been charged by law enforcement, Weil said.
Weil said that by analyzing news coverage, court documents and patterns of behavior – such as when people allegedly yelled slurs at protesters or turned around for a second hit – he determined that at least 19 of the 59 civilian incidents were malicious and four were not. Weil said he did not have enough information to classify the motives of the remaining 36 incidents.
Drivers are hitting protesters as memes of car attacks spread
Has anyone ever seen a meme about attacking people in the cars? In such an atmosphere, why are protesters not justified in taking action to disable any unknown vehicle that approaches them?
Some people need to use the road though. If you wanna protest in the middle of the road fine. But you should at least have the common courtesy to move for people that need it  Honestly you guys sound like pricks... we're protesting here and if you need to use the road go fuck yourself cause we're not moving. And you do approach, we'll smash your car up because thats self defense. And if he punches the gas because we're attacking him, hes a prick who is trying kill us. He doesn't have a right to self defense, only we do This is just asinine
It honestly boggles my mind that you guys feel such entitlement
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
#26868401 - 08/07/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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And, in your mind, what kind of punishment do people like that deserve? The ones who inconvenience you by protesting in the road, I mean.
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868403 - 08/07/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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natedawgnow said: Really want qman to answer this so ill quote again
Quote:
natedawgnow said:
Quote:
qman said:
A mob doesn't get to justify preemptive violent on a vehicle because of previous attacks from vehicles in the past, it doesn't work that way.
Except that is exactly the justification police give for using excessive force.
"Oh we deal with dangerous people all the time, prior history dictates that we treat everybody like violent criminals"
How can you say presumption of imminent danger based on historical precedent works for some but not others?
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
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qman said: No, if I'm cornered and being attacked for no valid reason, I'm go longer responsible for the injures in my escape. That burden is now assumed by the attackers, not the victim seeking safety.
You can't just spray a gun into a crowd because someone in that crowd attacked you. Why is driving a vehicle into a crowd because someone in that crowd attacked you different?
Besides, I didn't see a cornered vehicle. Why wasn't backing up an option?
You assume he knew with certainty this protest was intent on blocking traffic rather than just slowly marching or any other number of things he could have been thinking.
This is the problem with all of this, really.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26868409 - 08/07/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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MagicMush123 said: Some people need to use the road though. If you wanna protest in the middle of the road fine. But you should at least have the common courtesy to move for people that need it 
I made a thread about this. It wouldn't be much of a protest if they politely moved out of the way for anyone that asked, would it?
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26868410 - 08/07/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: And, in your mind, what kind of punishment do people like that deserve? The ones who inconvenience you by protesting in the road, I mean.
Let me answer that question by firing back a counter question.
How long would they get to say, block a freeway with rotating members, before we CAN justifiably arrest them all?
Because I want to know if you even HAVE a line.
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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 01:43 PM)
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26868412 - 08/07/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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MagicMush123 said: Some people need to use the road though. If you wanna protest in the middle of the road fine. But you should at least have the common courtesy to move for people that need it 
How do you decide who 'needs' to use the road?
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26868416 - 08/07/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said:
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MagicMush123 said: Some people need to use the road though. If you wanna protest in the middle of the road fine. But you should at least have the common courtesy to move for people that need it 
How do you decide who 'needs' to use the road?
You can start with groups that are capable of obeying traffic laws.
You could also make an ironic argument about taxes. 
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MagicMush123
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26868424 - 08/07/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
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MagicMush123 said: Some people need to use the road though. If you wanna protest in the middle of the road fine. But you should at least have the common courtesy to move for people that need it 
I made a thread about this. It wouldn't be much of a protest if they politely moved out of the way for anyone that asked, would it?
Entitlement 
Im upset. So im going to upset the people around me too. Even though they didn't personally do anything to me. Im upset so everyone can go fuck themselves. thats what children do....
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26868438 - 08/07/20 01:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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That's literally how protest works. You make ignoring the injustice such an inconvenience, that the people who are otherwise perfectly happy to ignore the injustice (like by framing protests against police murder continuously going unpunished as 'upset and entitled children') are forced to finally address the injustice in order to remove their inconvenience.
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