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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman] 1
#26868273 - 08/07/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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MagicMush123 said:
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ballsalsa said: I saw a truck driving toward a group of protesters while a guy on a motorcycle eventually was forced to throw himself in front of the attacker in an attempt to protect the marchers. Then I saw a bunch of people actually put their lives on the line in an attempt to disable the vehicle of the attacker.
You can't be serious 
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Vahn421 said:
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Brian Jones said: I keep trying to figure if the reason why you guys haven't pulled the plug on him yet is amusement value or sympathy for exceptional cases.
Because I'm not breaking the rules.
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Vahn421 said:
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natedawgnow said: Dude youre a total troll.
Asserting that George floyds death is no big deal because he was high and resisting, cheering secret police arresting people with no reading of rights, etc.
I've not once said George Floyd's death was, "No big deal" and I've not once said that I'm in favor of police arresting people illegally.
One of these days try to win an argument against me without misrepresenting me. I dare say you're incapable.
Prove me wrong.
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Herbologist said:
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ballsalsa said: I saw a truck driving toward a group of protesters while a guy on a motorcycle eventually was forced to throw himself in front of the attacker in an attempt to protect the marchers. Then I saw a bunch of people actually put their lives on the line in an attempt to disable the vehicle of the attacker.
You saw the motorcycle guy forced to throw his motorcycle in front of a moving vehicle? To protect the marchers? How do you know that? The truck was driving slow af in the video until he wasnt.
What I saw was a dude who laid his bike down in front of a vehicle while people proceed to smash his windows. When he took off not a single person was in the road.
Do we know where this was? Were there alternate routes?
I understand Falcon's frustration on this forum more and more every day.
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qman said: Did he intentionally drive into a protest or did he accidentally find himself there?
I just don't understand the aggressiveness of attacking someone's vehicle like that in the first place. What if that was your wife, mother or some other family member on the receiving end of that attack? I'm sure you would be irate about it.
I'm sorry, but if some mob pulls bullshit like that, the victim has every legal or moral right to drive away to save themselves. If driving away involves a bike on the front end or someone getting injured, that burden goes back to the attackers.
It seems the conservatives here are now the more rational posters. I'm not conservative at all, but people shouldn't be attacked because they won't make believe what the circumstances were. If there's evidence the truck driver wanted to run anyone over, or harm someone in any way, it hasn't been presented here. But there was clear evidence the protesters wanted to damage the guy's truck and it seems plausible they were a threat to the driver.
EVERYONE here agrees that if the guy in the truck had malicious intent, then the protesters had a right to defend themselves (by smashing his truck???)
But no one has shown any evidence of why the truck driver was on that road in the first place (was he just driving his normal route, did he miss a warning sign saying that drivers would get beaten?)
The liberals here really do want to turn this place into an echo chamber, where everyone make believes the circumstances and misrepresents the other side's positions. I prefer the old fashioned debate where you look at each argument for its merit.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26868279 - 08/07/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've explained to you exactly why the driver's motivation is of no import to the issue of whether or not the marchers were justified in their self defense actions
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26868282 - 08/07/20 12:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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So protesters have a right to smash people's cars???
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26868300 - 08/07/20 12:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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citizens have a right to self defense when there is a reasonable threat of death or serious injury. If the weapon being brandished is a car, then I think the answer to your question is yes.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26868303 - 08/07/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Louder for those in the back:
There have been multiple high-profile vehicular homicides recently - if the driver was justified, why were the protesters not justified in their reaction as well? At what point would the protesters have been justified in taking self-defensive action?
From what the video shows, the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the driver of the truck physically endangered the lives of many people who were not directly involved with damaging his vehicle, whereas the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the protesters did not physically endanger anyone - perhaps some glass shards could have cut the occupants of the vehicle but it was all property destruction. From what the video shows, assuming both groups were acting in self-defence (a claim that could be considered valid for both parties), the driver of the truck took reckless action that physically endangered the lives of numerous uninvolved people, whereas the protesters took reasonable action to neutralize the possible threat without causing disproportionate physical harm.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868310 - 08/07/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wouldn't be surprised to see more area denial like this in the future to deter potential vehicle attacks
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MagicMush123
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26868316 - 08/07/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: Whether I would be irate or not isn't the issue. His motivation is not a factor in determining if violent self-defense is justified. Self defense is predicated on a reasonable fear of death or serious injury. There have been several high profile attacks against protesters from vehicles in recent days. In that context it is reasonable to fear a vehicle approaching rather than moving away from a group of protest marchers. He could, in actuality, have been mother theresa and because there is no way for the protest marchers to know that their fear would be reasonable and reaction justified. The only person in this scenario that acted unreasonably is the driver who failed to yield to pedestrians in the roadway despite having an unobstructed view of them.
Nah dude. If a car is slowing approaching like in the video, you should get out of the way. They had ample time to move. This wasn't some car barreling down the road straight for them, this was a slowly approaching vehicle. What if he was just trying to get home for fuck sakes? Whatever happened to the duty to retreat?
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26868323 - 08/07/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't know the law in portland with regard to right of way disputes between vehicles and pedestrians. Where I grew up, pedestrians always unquestionably have the right of way.
In any event, how does a crowd retreat from an attacking vehicle? In the Austin case, the driver slowly drove into the crowd before shooting a man dead. Same in Seattle but I think he only shot someone in the arm. How is a slowly moving vehicle less threatening in that context?
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26868329 - 08/07/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: citizens have a right to self defense when there is a reasonable threat of death or serious injury. If the weapon being brandished is a car, then I think the answer to your question is yes.
See, the thing about this I find funny is that if protesters are worried about their lives, they'd be running, not provoking a guy (by breaking his truck) who may or may have a gun in his car and may or may not run over you.
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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 01:06 PM)
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26868332 - 08/07/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
how does a crowd retreat from an attacking vehicle?
They step onto the sidewalk.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
#26868335 - 08/07/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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can you outrun a truck? if so, I would be impressed
do you know of a city with sidewalks that trucks are incapable of mounting and driving over? If so, I would be impressed
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868338 - 08/07/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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shivas.wisdom said: whereas the protesters took reasonable action to neutralize the possible threat without causing disproportionate physical harm.
No. It is likely the attack itself provoked the dangerous response.
Why does Antifa and company always think they things they do neutralize threats when they are just provoking larger ones?
The thinking is so backwards. They really need to go get some more real life experience. We're really living in clown world.
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#26868342 - 08/07/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: can you outrun a truck? if so, I would be impressed
do you know of a city with sidewalks that trucks are incapable of mounting and driving over? If so, I would be impressed
We're not talking about god damn trucks that chase protesters. Seriously, nobody fucking cares about that. Nobody is pro-chase protesters. Fuck sake.
We're talking about vehicles that drive in their lane on the road. (Or are trying to.) All you have to do is take a few steps back. When that truck his the gas in that video, those protesters parted like Moses stretched his hand toward the red sea.
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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 01:12 PM)
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MagicMush123
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26868344 - 08/07/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ballsalsa said: I don't know the law in portland with regard to right of way disputes between vehicles and pedestrians. Where I grew up, pedestrians always unquestionably have the right of way.
Pedestrians are also not to supposed to j walk.
I really can't believe you think protesters should have the legal right to smash a car up (self defense ) if it approaches their protest which is blocking a road that some people might really need to use. Even if its really, really slowly moving. If a cars slowly moving, they should get out of the way and let him pass you shouldn't block it and then proceed to smash it up. If you do that theyll punch the gas every time because their life is now in danger
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26868350 - 08/07/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: It seems the conservatives here are now the more rational posters.
I'll say it again. I'm not conservative either. I'm completely unaffiliated. I just can't have conversations with the political left without them twisting the conversation or twisting my words somehow. I've known this for about 5 years or so... right around the time South Park introduced P.C. principal.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123] 1
#26868357 - 08/07/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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MagicMush123 said: Nah dude. If a car is slowing approaching like in the video, you should get out of the way. They had ample time to move. This wasn't some car barreling down the road straight for them, this was a slowly approaching vehicle. What if he was just trying to get home for fuck sakes? Whatever happened to the duty to retreat?

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Vahn421 said: See, the thing about this I find funny is that if protesters are worried about their lives, they'd be running, not provoking a guy (by breaking his truck) who may or may have a gun in his car and may or may not run over you. 

Quote:
Vahn421 said: It is likely the attack itself provoked the dangerous response.
Why does Antifa and company always think they things they do neutralize threats when they are just provoking larger ones?
The thinking is so backwards. They really need to go get some more real life experience. We're really living in clown world.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26868365 - 08/07/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Besides, a slow moving vehicle doesn't remove it as a threat. Not only can they unexpectedly accelerate (in fact, this has been the case in more than a few recently), but a slow-moving vehicle - especially in a dense crowd - is still a risk in itself.
A protest in the street should be treated like any other hazard blocking the road - you don't try to slowly creep through it, you turn around and find an alternative route. Just because a vehicle has the ability to slowly push through a bunch of people in a way that it couldn't with a fallen power line or flooded road doesn't suddenly mean "push through the hazard" become the appropriate response.
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There have been at least 66 incidents of cars driving into protesters from May 27 to July 6, including 59 by civilians and seven by law enforcement, according to Ari Weil, a terrorism researcher at the University of Chicago's Project on Security and Threats.
There have been two fatalities – in Seattle and in Bakersfield, California – and at least 24 of the civilian cases have been charged by law enforcement, Weil said.
Weil said that by analyzing news coverage, court documents and patterns of behavior – such as when people allegedly yelled slurs at protesters or turned around for a second hit – he determined that at least 19 of the 59 civilian incidents were malicious and four were not. Weil said he did not have enough information to classify the motives of the remaining 36 incidents.
Drivers are hitting protesters as memes of car attacks spread
Has anyone ever seen a meme about attacking people in the cars? In such an atmosphere, why are protesters not justified in taking action to disable any unknown vehicle that approaches them?
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26868369 - 08/07/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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There's no evidence he was attempting to "push" through. Not everyone is aware of the nature of the protests and that people standing in the road have the actual (malicious) intent to prevent cars from going by. As in... they aren't marching, their whole goal is to block traffic.
For all he knew they may have just stopped marching for a moment and he was going to wait for them to pass before he did. Like a railroad stop.
The assumptions you all have made about this guy are astounding, really.
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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 01:26 PM)
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ballsalsa
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26868372 - 08/07/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: can you outrun a truck? if so, I would be impressed
do you know of a city with sidewalks that trucks are incapable of mounting and driving over? If so, I would be impressed
We're not talking about god damn trucks that chase protesters. Seriously, nobody fucking cares about that. Nobody is pro-chase protesters. Fuck sake.
We're talking about vehicles that drive in their lane on the road. (Or are trying to.) All you have to do is take a few steps back. When that truck his the gas in that video, those protesters parted like Moses stretched his hand toward the red sea.
How can one tell the difference before it is too late?
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MagicMush123 said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: I don't know the law in portland with regard to right of way disputes between vehicles and pedestrians. Where I grew up, pedestrians always unquestionably have the right of way.
Pedestrians are also not to supposed to j walk.
I really can't believe you think protesters should have the legal right to smash a car up (self defense ) if it approaches their protest which is blocking a road that some people might really need to use. Even if its really, really slowly moving. If a cars slowly moving, they should get out of the way and let him pass you shouldn't block it and then proceed to smash it up. If you do that theyll punch the gas every time because their life is now in danger
jay walking is an infraction punishable by fine, not by being run over with a truck. thereasonable thing for the driver to have done is recognize that the road was blocked by pedestrians and treat the situation the same as they would treat any temporary street closure, by altering course. Do reasonable people just drive very slowly through a farmers market or street fair? No, they go around.
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Vahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26868374 - 08/07/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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How can one tell the difference before it is too late?
You won't have time to tell the difference if they really mean it.
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