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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26867733 - 08/07/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Anyone who drives into a protest March at this time should expect to be attacked and beaten nearly to death.  It's no different than running up to a big crowd and threatening them with any other weapon.  A violent reaction is both expected and completely justified.




This thinking is completely backwards. This kind of thinking is asserting someone is guilty until proven innocent. This kind of thinking is totalitarian. It's mob rule.

I will fight against this kind of thinking with my life on the line until I die.



Dude youre a total troll.

For pages in multiple threads you've been arguing in favor of police arresting random people in black on suspicion,
literally assuming they're guilty of a crime with no evidence to back it up,
Asserting that George floyds death is no big deal because he was high and resisting,
cheering secret police arresting people with no reading of rights, etc.

Now you're gonna come in here and claim to be against the guilty until proven innocent trope?

You've literally been arguing on the side of automatic assumption of guilt for days!

Holy fuck!




I've not once said George Floyd's death was, "No big deal" and I've not once said that I'm in favor of police arresting people illegally. I've also said if the cop IS responsible for Floyd's death (we have no concrete proof of it), he needs to be punished.

The only thing I've asserted is that George Floyd's case is far more ambiguous now that we have more information. And again, this is the general consensus of the population. (All you have to do is read the comments on the Daily Mail video. Daily Mail is NOT a republican or a pro-Trump source.)

MOST IMPORTANTLY, my biggest assertion is that this death WAS NOT racially motivated. We're not pleased we were lied to. We're not pleased a race war started over this.

Because this place is an echo-chamber, you all think I'm in the minority, but I'm not.

One of these days try to win an argument against me without misrepresenting me. I dare say you're incapable.

Prove me wrong.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 06:57 AM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26867734 - 08/07/20 06:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Anyone who drives into a protest March at this time should expect to be attacked and beaten nearly to death.  It's no different than running up to a big crowd and threatening them with any other weapon.  A violent reaction is both expected and completely justified.




This thinking is completely backwards. This kind of thinking is asserting someone is guilty until proven innocent. This kind of thinking is totalitarian. It's mob rule.

I will fight against this kind of thinking with my life on the line until I die.




Oh please, save the pearl clutching.  You aren't fighting shit and you aren't putting your life on the line.  Get over yourself. this is a discussion board not a battlefield.




I'm dead serious, whether you want to roll your eyes or not. I care about my country and I'm very aware of what types of ideas lead to what results.

Like Terrance McKenna said, some ideas are so bad that they deserve to be treated with absolute contempt. We don't live in a relative world. The thinking you've projected is the kind of thinking that will rip the fabric of society asunder, so I'm not just going to let such nonsensical remarks slide without saying something.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 07:00 AM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26867815 - 08/07/20 07:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Like Terrance McKenna said, some ideas are so bad that they deserve to be treated with absolute contempt.





Finally, something we can all agree on.


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OfflineHerbologist
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26867950 - 08/07/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I saw a truck driving toward a group of protesters while a guy on a motorcycle eventually was forced to throw himself in front of the attacker in an attempt to protect the marchers.  Then I saw a bunch of people actually put their lives on the line in an attempt to disable the vehicle of the attacker.





You saw the motorcycle guy forced to throw his motorcycle in front of a moving vehicle?  To protect the marchers?  How do you know that?  The truck was driving slow af in the video until he wasnt.

What I saw was a dude who laid his bike down in front of a vehicle while people proceed to smash his windows.  When he took off not a single person was in the road.


Anyone in here acting like they wouldn't take off while their vehicle is attacked is full of it. IMO.


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Herbologist]
    #26867963 - 08/07/20 09:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I wouldn't drive my vehicle into a protest march in the first place. Turning around or using reverse are very simple solutions were a wrong turn made  :shrug:


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OfflineHerbologist
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26867968 - 08/07/20 09:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do we know where this was?  Were there alternate routes?



I understand Falcon's frustration on this forum more and more every day.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Herbologist]
    #26867973 - 08/07/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We do.  This has been discussed


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26868034 - 08/07/20 10:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Any rational person would GTFO of a possibly dangerous situation by turning around and finding a safer route or at least asses the situation from afar before engaging.

This has been a classic example of those folks that drive through a flooded road then wonder why there car got swept away or stuck. :facepalm3:


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26868068 - 08/07/20 10:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I wouldn't drive my vehicle into a protest march in the first place. Turning around or using reverse are very simple solutions were a wrong turn made  :shrug:




Well that's the key aspect, did he intentionally drive into a protest or did he accidentally find himself there.

I just don't understand the aggressiveness of attacking someone's vehicle like that in the first place.  What if that was your wife, mother or some other family member on the receiving end of that attack?  I'm sure you would be irate about it.

I'm sorry, but if some mob pulls bullshit like that, the victim has every legal or moral right to drive away to save themselves. If driving away involves a bike on the front end or someone getting injured, that burden goes back to the attackers.


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
    #26868123 - 08/07/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Whether I would be irate or not isn't the issue.  His motivation is not a factor in determining if violent self-defense is justified.  Self defense is predicated on a reasonable fear of death or serious injury.  There have been several high profile attacks against protesters from vehicles in recent days.  In that context it is reasonable to fear a vehicle approaching rather than moving away from a group of protest marchers.  He could, in actuality, have been mother theresa and because there is no way for the protest marchers to know that their fear would be reasonable and reaction justified.  The only person in this scenario that acted unreasonably is the driver who failed to yield to pedestrians in the roadway despite having an unobstructed view of them.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Herbologist]
    #26868155 - 08/07/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Herbologist said:
Do we know where this was?  Were there alternate routes?



I understand Falcon's frustration on this forum more and more every day.





Yup.

Quote:

Anyone in here acting like they wouldn't take off while their vehicle is attacked is full of it. IMO.




Yup.

I hope you speak out more, mate.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26868159 - 08/07/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Whether I would be irate or not isn't the issue.  His motivation is not a factor in determining if violent self-defense is justified.  Self defense is predicated on a reasonable fear of death or serious injury.  There have been several high profile attacks against protesters from vehicles in recent days.  In that context it is reasonable to fear a vehicle approaching rather than moving away from a group of protest marchers.  He could, in actuality, have been mother theresa and because there is no way for the protest marchers to know that their fear would be reasonable and reaction justified.  The only person in this scenario that acted unreasonably is the driver who failed to yield to pedestrians in the roadway despite having an unobstructed view of them.




All I hear is, "if people are too stupid to figure out whether or not a vehicle is a threat, they have the right to act like they are being threatened and injure innocent people."


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 11:18 AM)


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26868176 - 08/07/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Same same but with people too stupid to figure out whether or not a person is a threat to their inanimate object:

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
If they so much as HIT my car, that's my justification to floor it.




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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26868211 - 08/07/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
1. It's an incredibly accessible tactic. Everyone lives near a busy road so you don't have to travel very far to protest, and it's not very technically challenging so no specialized skills are necessary.

2. It's very effective at getting attention. Not every protest tactic is an appeal to public opinion; often the goal is to shut things down until the injustice is addressed. Traffic blockades cannot be ignored.

3. Right to protest > licence to drive




1. I agree on the technical aspect because it's not a moral argument being made.

2. Same as #1. You're making a technical argument for how it DOES get you more attention. Murder someone and you'll get attention, too. Attention ≠ Morality.

3. This is subjective.



Wait, were you expecting a argument for the morality of traffic blockades? The act is inherently amoral (neither moral or immoral), and I wouldn't expect any good argument to exist that would establish things otherwise. Do you have a moral argument to make against blocking traffic, or are you holding your opponents to a higher standard?

Otherwise, I'm glad you agree that there are good arguments for the technical benefits of blocking traffic.

And finally, no it's not subjective. There's a reason why we don't have to earn our right to protest but we do need to earn our license to drive. Right to protest > licence to drive. If you disagree, you'll have to do more than simply state it's subjective - show your reasoning!



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Is there ANY good argument for driving your vehicle into people blocking traffic?




Oh, definitely. Many reasons.



Name them.

And just to preempt your expected response, the subject is "people blocking traffic" not "people attacking your vehicle".


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26868226 - 08/07/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You've brought up a good point relative to semantics. So to be clear, I don't think anyone is advocating or arguing for driving into a crowd of people just because they are there, but there are definitely reasons for escaping violence. In the video I posted where they both flatten his tire and break his windshield, his reaction was justifiable. I'll honk my horn and hope everyone gets out of the fuckin road, hell, I'd even try to avoid hitting anyone by swerving best I could, but I'm going through because my life is more important to me than theirs is, and I know they feel the same way about mine.  Why hold myself to a higher moral standard than they are?

There are other justifications for trying to creep through a crowd slowly that may range from your wife being pregnant and in labor in the car or your son having a seizure. You may be passing out from lack of insulin. Sure, they are extreme examples, but it illustrates a vital point, especially when protesters block thousands of cars at a time on the freeway with no way to escape.


As for the "effectiveness" of protesting, we can even set the morality of it aside for second and just look at the manifested results traffic blocking is creating... they are making more enemies than allies. Morality may be arbitrary but "cause and effect" is indeed a real thing regardless... and "getting attention" the way they are may not be bringing about a useful cause and effect for the protesters. Attention isn't necessarily always a positive thing.

Basically, you just lost any potential ally that is stuck on the freeway and had to take a massive shit. :lol:


Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 12:02 PM)


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26868229 - 08/07/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Though I disagree with much of what Vahn says, he does a better job of backing himself up than most people here.  :shrug:



:curbyourenthusiasm: I be very interested in seeing you attempt to back up this claim, because I've tried really hard to have them provide supporting arguments and I don't believe I've seen any yet. Please share some examples of the numerous times Vahn has backed up their beliefs with evidence or reason.


It seems you have a gripe with "most people here" - I'm reminded of this recent post of yours also directed to Vahn:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That puts you and I in the minority here, and is why I updated my current signature.  Most people here judge the person or the party, not the content/context.

I think I pissed a few people off on my own side by calling them out on their mistakes.  Not because I'm against THEM, but because of something they said.




And when I called you out on this, you choose to selectively edit the quote in your response to just this:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think I pissed a few people off on my own side by calling them out on their mistakes.  Not because I'm against THEM, but because of something they said.




And when I called you out on the part you removed, I don't think you ever responded. Maybe you'll take the time to respond now: make believe or do you have evidence for this?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26868240 - 08/07/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It seems you have a gripe with "most people here"




It's not them, it's their pattern of dishonest debate. When they don't do it, we have no problem with them.


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Edited by Vahn421 (08/07/20 12:10 PM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26868252 - 08/07/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Nobody is dishonest. You flip flop your convictions every other post.

Learn to be consistent or quit bitchin


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26868257 - 08/07/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Nobody is dishonest. You flip flop your convictions every other post.

Learn to be consistent or quit bitchin




You mistake having nuanced opinions for flip flopping. Some of us don't see in black and white.


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26868269 - 08/07/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
You've brought up a good point relative to semantics. So to be clear, I don't think anyone is advocating or arguing for driving into a crowd of people just because they are there, but there are definitely reasons for escaping violence. In the video I posted where they both flatten his tire and break his windshield, his reaction was justifiable. I'll honk my horn and hope everyone gets out of the fuckin road, hell, I'd even try to avoid hitting anyone by swerving best I could, but I'm going through because my life is more important to me than theirs is, and I know they feel the same way about mine.  Why hold myself to a higher moral standard than they are?



"I don't think anyone is advocating or arguing for driving into a crowd of people just because they are there"

"I'll honk my horn and hope everyone gets out of the fuckin road, hell, I'd even try to avoid hitting anyone by swerving best I could, but I'm going through because my life is more important to me than theirs is"

Nope, still not clear. There have been multiple high-profile vehicular homicides recently - if the  driver was justified, why were the protesters not justified in their reaction as well? At what point would the protesters have been justified in taking self-defensive action?

From what the video shows, the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the driver of the truck physically endangered the lives of many people who were not directly involved with damaging his vehicle, whereas the (claimed) self-defensive actions of the protesters did not physically endanger anyone - perhaps some glass shards could have cut the occupants of the vehicle but it was all property destruction. From what the video shows, assuming both groups were acting in self-defence (a claim that could be considered valid for both parties), the driver of the truck took reckless action that physically endangered the lives of numerous uninvolved people, whereas the protesters took reasonable action to neutralize the possible threat without causing disproportionate physical harm.




Quote:

Vahn421 said:
There are other justifications for trying to creep through a crowd slowly that may range from your wife being pregnant and in labor in the car or your son having a seizure. You may be passing out from lack of insulin. Sure, they are extreme examples, but it illustrates a vital point, especially when protesters block thousands of cars at a time on the freeway with no way to escape.



Wouldn't turning around and taking an alternative route be a more reasonable, and very likely quicker, response? Ya'know, just like how you would respond to any other unexpected hazard blocking the road - or would you actually drive your vehicle into a fallen tree or electrical pole because of "your wife being pregnant and in labor in the car or your son having a seizure"?






Quote:

Vahn421 said:
As for the "effectiveness" of protesting, we can even set the morality of it aside for second and just look at the manifested results traffic blocking is creating... they are making more enemies than allies. Morality may be arbitrary but "cause and effect" is indeed a real thing regardless... and "getting attention" the way they are may not be bringing about a useful cause and effect for the protesters. Attention isn't necessarily always a positive thing.

Basically, you just lost any potential ally that is stuck on the freeway and had to take a massive shit. :lol:



Someone who is more bothered by the inconvenience of traffic than the injustice of police murder was never an ally in the first place. We'll have more success from making ignoring police murder a bigger inconvenience, to these types of people, than the inconvenience of having to actually address the issue.


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