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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26868861 - 08/07/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Take cover.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Billy Ray]
    #26868895 - 08/07/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If you yell,"Get down!" that would make the cops dance . So "take cover!" and the like will do.


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I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26869162 - 08/07/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Just another day in America with the police. Yeah, we focus on the police killings, but this is the daily abuse and harassment.

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/08/07/aurora-police-district-attorney-investigation-children-detention/



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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: qman]
    #26869250 - 08/07/20 10:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

so, most people seem to agree that police are an inherently negative institution. Most people agree they are not justified in shooting some asshole, and most people agree that police are professional liars.

I agree with all of that. A police presence makes everything worse, unless you have a dashcam and some Karen just rammed you for shits and giggles. By the way, get a fucking dashcam.

However, as of his post, it seems 50/50 split on "most cops should be armed". Given the current situation in the US, I fully agree with that. All cops should be armed. When the average citizen has the right to own a gun with no licensing or background check, then the cops should be ready for literally any situation to become a running shootout. Traffic stop? Get ready to blast. DUI? Grab your dick in one hand and your gun in the other. Literally any crime has the potential for shooting, so all cops should always be armed. I should add, it doesn't even need to "feel" like a crime. Back in the day, we all knew what crimes were. Don;t steal shit, don;t kill people, that kind of thing. Nowadays, jaywalking is a crime, and police should be willing and able to respond to jaywalking with lethal force.

US citizens really need to accept that. The second amendment means that if the cop, for any reason, feels threatened, then you're getting shot. That's fully justified, because the second amendment says you can shoot back.

In all honesty, I wouldn't really have a social problem with cops lobbing grenades into cars and houses. Morally? Yeah, that's fucked up. Considering the social reality of the US, if a cop isn't going in with grenades, that's a waste of taxpayer money.


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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26870003 - 08/08/20 12:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree.  There should be armed cops ready to respond when necessary but since the vast majority of police interaction don't involve being shot at, the vast majority of police don't need guns to shoot back with.  Police work pays well above the median in the US. Even if you lose a few cops here and there, there will always be more shitheads who want to get paid well to beat ass.  Its no different than how sometimes construction workers sometimes get crushed or mangled or buried but new guys come along for those jobs.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870137 - 08/08/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The fact that most police interactions don;t end in shootouts doesn't invalidate that fact that EVERY police interaction has the POTENTIAL for a shootout.

Therefore, every cop needs to be "armed cops ready to respond when necessary".

Places with sane gun laws, or registries, the cops can look up a suspect and have an incredibly accurate guess as to whether they have a gun or not. In the US, one third of the population is armed, and there are more guns than people. There is a 1/3 chance that the guy you're about to have an unpleasant confrontation with has a gun, and they might use it.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Kryptos]
    #26870153 - 08/08/20 02:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Those numbers are going up.  Nevertheless, cops should just accept the risk like anyone else.  its their job.


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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26870176 - 08/08/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Take cover.




for how long? say the shooter has a lot of ammo, do you expect the cops to just pray?

and if the shooter turns his fire onto citizens? Sorry man I fucking hate cops as they are but that was just libtarded as hell


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870233 - 08/08/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Those numbers are going up.  Nevertheless, cops should just accept the risk like anyone else.  its their job.




Cops have no legal duty to risk their lives to help people.


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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Kryptos]
    #26870252 - 08/08/20 03:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

One more reason that they don't need to be armed


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870268 - 08/08/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Not at all. If anything, that's a reason for why the current police need more weapons. It's much safer to drop a dozen mortar rounds in the general vicinity of a criminal than to confront that criminal head on.


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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Kryptos]
    #26870358 - 08/08/20 05:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

the cure sounds worse than the disease


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InvisibleDontFearThePeepr
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: ballsalsa] * 3
    #26870366 - 08/08/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I think the biggest problem is qualified immunity, cops need to be held accountable for making mistakes. That alone would be a huge disincentive to the manner of their current behavior.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870412 - 08/08/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
the cure sounds worse than the disease




I completely agree. However, given the current social climate in the US, I don't believe there is an alternate possibility.

Given (a) the proliferation of guns and (b) the fact that police are not legally required to risk their lives in defense of civilians, the only logical outcome is for police to approach every situation from the military perspective of overwhelming firepower to neutralize the designated target.

The only way to change this is to change the underlying social issues. Which is the purpose of the "defund the police" people. We will not change the proliferation of guns in the next half century, because even if the wishful thinking of gun control passes, people are going to be finding grandpa's AR-15 in the attic for the next two generations.

Everything else is simply taking work off the police plate. Better mental health counseling, better social support systems, removing qualified immunity, requiring insurance, changing the social attitude of calling the cops instead of having a conversation, etc.

Once the police aren't required to be a mental health counselor, a frontline warrior, the guy that gets cats out of trees, the guy that stops mass shootings, etc. things will get better.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Kryptos]
    #26870666 - 08/08/20 08:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I would argue that the "everything else" part is far and away the most important part.


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OnlineKryptos
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26871437 - 08/09/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

It is, but it's a symptom vs. disease argument.

The disease manifests in a lack of social cohesion, which comes from many factors normally championed by the GOP: lack of safety net, the whole "welfare queen" thing, the idea that freedom means freedom from personal responsibility, religious integration into politics turning every issue into a my way or the highway crusade, general use of obstructionism as a tactic.

The symptoms are what we see with police treating their jobs as occupation of enemy territory, being given gear explicitly designed for warzones, and being forced into a role as the primary mental health responders. And, of course, due to the severe overlap in duties, they need immunity from when the inevitably fuck up and blow away some guy that's just mentally retarded.

Police in the US are woefully undertrained. All you need is a GED and 19 weeks of police academy, of which only one day is spent on de-escalation training. Because cops don't need conflict de-escalation training. They just need to know how to shoot their problems. Immunity covers everything else.

Two other thoughts I think are relevant:

First, the third amendment. Seems kinda weird, right? Quartering troops. But there was no police back when the constitution was written. Law enforcement was done by soldiers.

Second, before there was police, there was maybe a sheriff for serious crimes, but crimes were generally dealt with on a social level. This meant that everybody knew what a crime was, because those crimes were generally things like stealing, murder, etc. Nowadays, however, (and I believe this trend started with the prohibition), nobody knows what a crime is. The average American commits multiple crimes every day, just driving to work. Some people inadvertently commit felonies routinely.


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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Kryptos]
    #26871722 - 08/09/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

"Mayor and The Executioners"



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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26874029 - 08/10/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That's a difficult poll, since many of my answers would be "sometimes".  For example, "Police serve as a force for government oppression of citizens".

Edit:  I did my best to answer.



Sometimes means true. It's pretty obvious not every single activity a cop does on the clock is government oppression.
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26874156 - 08/10/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Right, but if 1 in 10 cops engage in oppression, that doesn't mean all cops do.

What you're talking about is the frequency that the 1 in 10 cop engages in oppression.  Sure, even if it's not frequent, I'll agree that 1 in 10 guy is an oppressor.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Enlil's Attempt to Reach the Truth: Police Enforcement Edition. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26874621 - 08/11/20 08:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Are you saying that you think that only 10% of cops engage in oppression?


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