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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value 1
#26867854 - 08/07/20 08:21 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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At the end of the day holding shit down is a perennial problem. Oft times if we put too much value in the dreams we receive from experiences had through psychedelics, or meditation, or chanting or whatever then it just pulls us out of the moment and then we forget our number one obligation. Which I think is just to follow your instincts and keep it together, let life take you where it will and do your best to be a good companion to it, the universe is always trying to get the message to you in some form I reckon. Whether you're in the gutter or reaching for the heights.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Hartford
Lawful Good



Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 1,106
Loc: Tennessee
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26867883 - 08/07/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nah, sometimes religious experiences are necessary to help a prisoner realize that he is free to go, else he might get comfortable "keeping it together and relying on instincts" in his jail cell and fail to do the real task at hand, which is feed, clothe, shelter and visit the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If instincts guided, that may not be high on the priority list, and that would be a crying shame because ministering to the lost sheep is the quintessential task.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Hartford] 1
#26867888 - 08/07/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The path of least resistance is a bit different for everyone and changes with time.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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the strander
Explorer



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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26867920 - 08/07/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's fine as your opinion for yourself. But just because your life works that way doesn't mean a spiritual experience isn't positive and helpful for someone else.
For some people, "holding it down" (by which I assume you mean making sure you have the basics like food, health and access to healthcare, a place to live, income to support yourself) is something they've already figured out. I don't want to minimize the effort it takes to get to a steady state with these things, but some people are at a place in their lives where they have the basics covered, and are left wondering "what now?".
A spiritual experience, or perhaps an experience of enlightenment where something becomes clear that was missing or muddy before, can be very helpful for people in that state. Especially if they struggle with self esteem or depression. Such an experience can give a person the reason and the inner drive to keep going in life, or to pursue a path that will lead them to greater fulfillment and happiness.
I think you're looking through a very narrow lens saying that a spiritual experience necessarily distracts from what's important; that may be the case from your perspective, but by no means applies to everyone.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26867922 - 08/07/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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well there is 3 germs of truth.
as long as you keep seeing shit that makes sense, you are holy, while clinging to past visions is a crock.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26867941 - 08/07/20 09:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Everyone has to let go eventually if not by choice but clinging holds purpose like everything else done.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26868002 - 08/07/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Doesn't that seem a bit circular? Perhaps circular is the best answer we have on this merry go round.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Hartford]
#26868031 - 08/07/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hartford said: Nah, sometimes religious experiences are necessary to help a prisoner realize that he is free to go, else he might get comfortable "keeping it together and relying on instincts" in his jail cell and fail to do the real task at hand, which is feed, clothe, shelter and visit the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If instincts guided, that may not be high on the priority list, and that would be a crying shame because ministering to the lost sheep is the quintessential task.
Who said that is the real task? I'll echo what someone has said above and say that it's fine as your own answer but it might not be everyones or rather it might not be right for everyone at every moment, which I see as sort of an absurd truth of things.
“Oh, a sleeping drunkard Up in Central Park, And a lion-hunter In the jungle dark, And a Chinese dentist, And a British queen-- All fit together In the same machine. Nice, nice, very nice; Nice, nice, very nice; Nice, nice, very nice-- So many different people In the same device.”
- K. Vonnegut
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26868089 - 08/07/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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inspiration is very fucking important especially during lock downs. something similar between inspiration and transcendence, and one might say, the purpose of life is to transcend oneself.
given time, this is rather easy.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#26868172 - 08/07/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Unfortunately hell and the grave give me itchy feet but everyone is always telling me to be patient. It's pretty hard to believe anything will come of anything any more given my present circumstances. Faith doesn't seem easy to someone so far in the grip of fear as myself. A blast of truth by a medicine man only sends me into a panic attack. And that's without even a mention of the ever present chronic pain issues beginning in my (non-spiritual) heart that are depleting energy and always a distraction.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (08/07/20 11:29 AM)
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26868192 - 08/07/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Unfortunately hell and the grave give me itchy feet but everyone is always telling me to be patient. It's pretty hard to believe anything will come of anything any more given my present circumstances. Faith doesn't seem easy to someone so far in the grip of fear as myself. A blast of truth by a medicine man only sends me into a panic attack. And that's without even a mention of the ever present chronic pain issues beginning in my (non-spiritual) heart that are depleting energy and always a distraction.
Chronic pain is a big question in all of this.
Sometimes I'm appreciative of the chronic pains that I have (which aren't too terrible or debilitating these days, but do put me in a negative frame of mind much of the time and drain my willpower), because they oblige me to tend to my body and mind more than I might otherwise.
More often, I just lament them and spend lots of time thinking about how they could get worse, ruin my prospects of having a happy life and happy relationships, and then think about how much worse pain so many other people are in, which becomes a very negative loop.
I'm attracted, for obvious reasons, to spiritual teachers who have healed themselves / been healed through mindfulness or whose years of chronic pain were actually part of a kundalini or otherwise spiritual awakening process.
I can't tell if CBD oil exacerbates my chronic pains (especially maxillofacial pain, intense sleeping jaw grinding, and headaches) or just makes it more apparent what's going on beneath the hood...
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Lion]
#26868200 - 08/07/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I find some comfort knowing someone else struggles from a similar issue. CBD doesn't seem to do anything for me, Clonezapam helps but it makes me go soft in the head. Thanks for sharing Lion.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit] 3
#26868381 - 08/07/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: Doesn't that seem a bit circular? Perhaps circular is the best answer we have on this merry go round.
I tend to think all experience is spiritual. Some experiences lend themselves more to the idea than others, especially if they're enjoyable or meaningful in a way that is encouraging. Ideally we get some of both, and in a more natural setting frequently.
I've been thinking lately about the effect of social media, 24 hour news, all this connectivity. It's something I had considered before but with covid and all the social unrest it seems particularly relevant. It strikes me to be like throwing a hundred crying babies in a movie theater. Where once there was a movie to watch that had it's ups and downs, now it's an incessant wailing of the fears of babies, which in another sense reminds me of visions of hell where the multitudes wail as they burn in a lake of fire.
Of course, there's nothing keeping a person from putting the internet down. I tend to think it's a choice to sit in that fire and burn along with everyone else. There must be some purpose to it, so I suppose one would do well to consider what that purpose is and adjust if they don't like the experience they are having. Or perhaps some people would rather suffer. Some say sitting quietly in an empty room is the most difficult thing to do. So the idea of the path of least resistance makes sense to me. Run and hide, bruised and in pain, soaking up the drama of it all. Regain some energy and that solace no longer holds drama so back we go into the lake of fire to drink some more.
It feels good to break a cycle, to let go, to live more simply. So why don't people do it more often?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz] 1
#26868459 - 08/07/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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why doesn't the thumbsup indicator (+), at top of post, show who is upping the count, Bluelight works a bit better in that way.
what I mean is i agree
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26868750 - 08/07/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I never could manage to get a meaningful experience from anything till I finally got off the benzos and started facing what life was trying to teach me with all the pain.
But that was just me.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Forrester]
#26868772 - 08/07/20 05:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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why do they give out benzos when people need to face stuff?
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi



Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26868789 - 08/07/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Liquid courage in a pill
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26868919 - 08/07/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah I've gone off benzos for that but I still take them moderately on weekends for some much needed pain relief, be that mental or physical. But mostly it is physical pain I take it for. Don't take anything else any more except smokes sometimes which I'm still trying to quit. I think it's possible to have a healthy relationship with benzos and I do genuinely need it for pain management so I'm fine with that as long as it's all I'm taking.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit] 1
#26869057 - 08/07/20 08:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: At the end of the day holding shit down is a perennial problem. Oft times if we put too much value in the dreams we receive from experiences had through psychedelics, or meditation, or chanting or whatever then it just pulls us out of the moment and then we forget our number one obligation. Which I think is just to follow your instincts and keep it together, let life take you where it will and do your best to be a good companion to it, the universe is always trying to get the message to you in some form I reckon. Whether you're in the gutter or reaching for the heights.
"Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value"
well value is always a matter of comparison is it not? So the Zen view which includes paradox, is of course that things are valued for their own sake or to experience directly and not compare with the mind or if no self, no need to collect values all that sort of 'thing' so indeed, no need to worry over what isn't necessary.
Insights, are cute, and sell books, and impress beginners. but after enlightenment its back to chopping water
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog]
#26869443 - 08/08/20 03:24 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah I agree, of course you could have easily have replaced spiritual experiences with music or books in the context of the header. There's a lot more noise and fuss over those than need be too. that said i love music and books.
Edited by Grapefruit (08/08/20 03:41 AM)
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26869449 - 08/08/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I think it's possible to have a healthy relationship with benzos
All I can tell you is until you get off them, completely (like for months), and allow them to get 100% out of your system, you will have no idea the full extent of how they were affecting you physically, as well as mentally. Sleep cycles, brain chemicals, mood, they affect everything.
I can only speak from experience.
But if it's working for you and you think you need them, I can understand not wanting to change anything. I'm not here to judge, just know that they are probably affecting you more than you think. It's difficult to see the size of the box from within the box.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
Edited by Forrester (08/08/20 03:42 AM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Forrester]
#26869459 - 08/08/20 03:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe you. I really want to be stone cold sober all the time but at the moment it seems pretty difficult due to nonesense in my life. Seems worse to get really drunk or use a bunch of heroin or speed by far compared to moderate and occasional benzos.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 24 days, 16 hours
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26869509 - 08/08/20 05:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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For sure, you'll know when the time is right for you and you'll be ready.
For me, and it's odd to say, but I'm glad I wasn't able to control benzos (or any other drug use - except alcohol), or I never would have gotten off them.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Vylie
The more you know

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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Forrester]
#26869632 - 08/08/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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...
Edited by Vylie (02/11/21 02:12 PM)
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Vylie
The more you know

Registered: 03/11/20
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26869637 - 08/08/20 07:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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...
Edited by Vylie (02/11/21 02:12 PM)
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Vylie]
#26875059 - 08/11/20 12:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I come from a country where benzos got a cease and desist for prescription back in 2002 or something. Now you can get a small amount for a period of difficulty with panic attacks or for plane flights but that's it no matter what the issue is.
Personally I would rather come from a country where they would allow you as many benzos as you want if it's what you felt you needed but that also came with a strong warning, and help tapering if you wanted to get off them. I find my country to be too authoritarian for my liking.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26875076 - 08/11/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Libertarianism is the devils work. We rather restrict people the potential of making mistakes than offer any possible good that may come from it.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26875109 - 08/11/20 01:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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How does libertarianism work into that?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26875210 - 08/11/20 02:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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canada limits benzos like that.
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Yellow Pants



Registered: 05/14/17
Posts: 1,386
Loc:
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26875928 - 08/11/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said: How does libertarianism work into that?
Libertarianism in the sense of no victim no foul. Which would include policy towards drugs where if there is no victim there is no crime. Assuming a victim must be somebody other than the person doing the thing.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26876374 - 08/12/20 06:41 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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are you sliding towards the larger issue of litigation and court rulings?
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Yellow Pants]
#26876521 - 08/12/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ahh, didn't see the sarcasm.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26879416 - 08/14/20 12:01 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: At the end of the day holding shit down is a perennial problem. Oft times if we put too much value in the dreams we receive from experiences had through psychedelics, or meditation, or chanting or whatever then it just pulls us out of the moment and then we forget our number one obligation. Which I think is just to follow your instincts and keep it together, let life take you where it will and do your best to be a good companion to it, the universe is always trying to get the message to you in some form I reckon. Whether you're in the gutter or reaching for the heights.
ah the danger of drawing a polarized conclusion, from one aspect of a matter under consideration.
Yes after insight comes daily work and more discipline, without which the insight just turns into another belief. but also, on the other hand- - for some a spiritual insight ( or just the over all experience itself - with no particular insight) often results in overcoming an addiction, instantly ! (many such stories) Also many other healing changes may last. Which of course all have great value.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog]
#26879538 - 08/14/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are stories like that sure but there are also stories of people chasing a never ending rabbit hole of self discovery and ending up cracked. And plenty of stories of people finding them very unhelpful. You tend to find the good ones on the internet of course, i come from a hippy town so I've seen plenty of the other side. It's a shame they are illegal as the experiences probably ought to be lead by professionals.
I don't really know why you say after insight comes discipline and daily work. It's a very bog standard answer that psychonaughts come out with. I think what's important is recognising that it was just an experience like any other. Then you can relax and doss around or do whatever you like so long as you behave with decency.
Unfortunately because of the power of psychedelic experiences people can draw all kinds of wacky conclusions about them and forget that the better part of wisdom is a continuum found in each moment, not in singular transitory experiences. This is the danger I'm referring too. Me pointing this out does not mean I'm saying they can't be transforming.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26879849 - 08/14/20 09:57 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
the better part of wisdom is a continuum found in each moment, not in singular transitory experiences
Nice!
There's a pull to throw some wood on that fire. If it's bright, can it be brighter? But it's not entirely intuitive to the mind, when one finds that less is more.
"Be still and know that I am God" to use a Christian phrase. Hard work and discipline is necessary, but what could be easier than that? 
There's an underlying discord in the individual and society... or is it surface level? What is underlying our existence? If the discord is deep, are we all traumatized or is that just a common human propensity for materialism, born with a carrot on a stick? Some of both?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26879944 - 08/14/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I like the shorter version of "be still and know that I am God"
"be still"
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26879993 - 08/14/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: There are stories like that sure but there are also stories of people chasing a never ending rabbit hole of self discovery and ending up cracked. And plenty of stories of people finding them very unhelpful. You tend to find the good ones on the internet of course, i come from a hippy town so I've seen plenty of the other side. It's a shame they are illegal as the experiences probably ought to be lead by professionals.
I don't really know why you say after insight comes discipline and daily work. It's a very bog standard answer that psychonaughts come out with. I think what's important is recognising that it was just an experience like any other. Then you can relax and doss around or do whatever you like so long as you behave with decency.
Unfortunately because of the power of psychedelic experiences people can draw all kinds of wacky conclusions about them and forget that the better part of wisdom is a continuum found in each moment, not in singular transitory experiences. This is the danger I'm referring too. Me pointing this out does not mean I'm saying they can't be transforming.
Sorry about all the sad cases you have seen.
"I don't really know why you say after insight comes discipline and daily work."
Well assuming there is some correspondence between enlightenment & tripping. I knew a meditation teacher who talked to precisely that point, saying that many think enlightenment is the goal but that actually it only shows one what one has to work on.
The biographies, of many zen masters, show this pattern, of continued study or work after an initial satori experience. In fact the whole system of hundreds of koans, has to do with deepening and expanding, the initial taste.
And if one has a psychedelic experience that is monitored by a psychologist integration and follow up work are not unusual.
But again, Sorry about all the sad cases you have seen.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog]
#26880043 - 08/14/20 12:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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He is very specifically teaching people to achieve moksha in a short space of time though. Not everyone wants that out of life, I don't think everyone need conform to that, and I don't think psychedelics are really about that.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26880108 - 08/14/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: He is very specifically teaching people to achieve moksha in a short space of time though. Not everyone wants that out of life, I don't think everyone need conform to that, and I don't think psychedelics are really about that.
are you responding to someone else...seems a non sequitur
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: laughingdog] 1
#26880261 - 08/14/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Point is not everyone thinks life is about working on themselves.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26880322 - 08/14/20 03:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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some people think they are here for a good time. as if faith in that would make it work.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26880326 - 08/14/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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You don't think so?
There are also those who put themselves out there for others. Anything that distracts from egoic snares is good work imo. Working on yourself was very heavily pushed on us by all the religious figures.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26880371 - 08/14/20 04:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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when people believe they are supposed to be happy, the get mad at others and the world if they are not achieving that well deserved happiness.
it is an error.
a worse error is to get mad at one's self.
life has both happiness and suffering, without exception. it's a mix
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Grapefruit
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26880415 - 08/14/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
when people believe they are supposed to be enlightened, they get mad at others and the world if they are not achieving that well deserved enlightenment.
This could be easily flipped like this.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26881070 - 08/15/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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yes, and also
Quote:
when people believe they are supposed to be famous and sexy, they get mad at others and the world if they are not achieving that well deserved fame and sexiness.
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Grapefruit
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26881111 - 08/15/20 06:25 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Good job I'm already famous and sexy then.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26881159 - 08/15/20 07:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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No blaming then!
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Grapefruit
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26881174 - 08/15/20 07:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm grateful to god that he made me so damn sexy but as for everything else I certainly blame him. I've even set about making myself ugly over the years merely to spite him.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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Rahz
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26881215 - 08/15/20 08:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grapefruit said: I'm grateful to god that he made me so damn sexy but as for everything else I certainly blame him. I've even set about making myself ugly over the years merely to spite him.
But doesn't that just make you sexier?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Rahz]
#26881238 - 08/15/20 08:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Klingons are pretty ugly on the whole.
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The Blind Ass
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26881288 - 08/15/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Romulan scum!
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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Grapefruit
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: The Blind Ass]
#26881335 - 08/15/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Klingons are nothing, I'm fucking British mate.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26881494 - 08/15/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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there is honor among Klingons
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Grapefruit
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: redgreenvines]
#26881519 - 08/15/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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What are you implying?
Or, in my particular vernacular....
You fookin wot m8?!
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
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redgreenvines
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Re: Why I believe spiritual experiences hold very little value [Re: Grapefruit]
#26882876 - 08/16/20 07:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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jusst trekkin out meng
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