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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
    #26876034 - 08/11/20 10:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here are the 'loaded' questions, so you don't have to waste any time going back:

Were the protesters justified enough in their fear of the truck to attack it?
Yes
No
STAL

Did attacking the stopped truck make the protesters safter, or did it put them in more danger?
Attacking the truck made them safer
Attacking the truck put their safety at greater risk
STAL




The questions are NOT loaded if taken into account the discussion and responses in this thread.

If those questions were in a survey with just regular people that didn't have access to this thread, yes I would consider it a loaded question.

But the survey was put in this thread under the assumption people have been following the discussion.




Assumption? Sounds like the make believe to me.

Fal, you want to weigh in?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: christopera]
    #26876039 - 08/11/20 10:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Qman makes an excellent point.  Everyone here knows exactly what went on, regardless of what side they're on, and regardless of how the questions are specifically worded.

But I would be interested in qman's take on why he thinks the questions would be loaded to someone without the same background the rest of us had, and how he would have worded them differently in that case.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26876040 - 08/11/20 10:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Qman makes an excellent point.  Everyone here knows exactly what went on, regardless of what side they're on, and regardless of how the questions are specifically worded.

But I would be interested in qman's take on why he thinks the questions would be loaded to someone without the background the rest of us had, or how he would have worded them differently in that case.




I don't care. You can cop out on your loaded survey all you want. It reflects on you, not me.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things

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Offlineqman
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: christopera] * 1
    #26876042 - 08/11/20 10:38 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Come on, Fal. Be honest with me. Do you, or do you not, see how those questions are framed in a loaded manner? Keep in mind, if you bake an assumption into that question it is assumed to be loaded. Language, however short, is critical in this instance.

I have faith in you being honest, in fact I'd say you uphold that here. So sit yourself down and ask some critical questions about the nature of that presentation.




If those questions are loaded, then surely you can rephrase the survey in a no
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Here are the 'loaded' questions, so you don't have to waste any time going back:

Were the protesters justified enough in their fear of the truck to attack it?
Yes
No
STAL

Did attacking the stopped truck make the protesters safter, or did it put them in more danger?
Attacking the truck made them safer
Attacking the truck put their safety at greater risk
STAL




The questions are NOT loaded if taken into account the discussion and responses in this thread.

If those questions were in a survey with just regular people that didn't have access to this thread, yes I would consider it a loaded question.

But the survey was put in this thread under the assumption people have been following the discussion.




Assumption? Sounds like the make believe to me.

Fal, you want to weigh in?




Yes, the survey only applies to members on this site, correct?  If you didn't read this thread, I don't think the survey would make much sense, correct?  So instead of trying to win an argument based on semantics, why don't you put this into the proper context. Those questions make sense ONLY if one were to follow the discussion in THIS thread and that's where the survey exists.

On its own, yes the survey would have loaded questions, but it's not on it's own. It's in this thread with a lengthy discussion.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
    #26876049 - 08/11/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

On its own, yes the survey would have loaded questions, but it's not on it's own. It's in this thread with a lengthy discussion.




qman, you are the fucking king of semantic based arguments, no matter how terrible.

However, when it comes to a questionnaire, there is nothing but semantics. It's literally how the questions are formed, and thereby responded to. So you've only admitted to the failure that are the loaded questions, which you agree happened.

What the fuck else needs to happen? Qman agrees, Fal admits to it (accidentally). Yet you two worm about. Give me a break. It's pathetic.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things

I’m sorry it had to be me.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: christopera] * 1
    #26876053 - 08/11/20 10:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:

"mindless mob"

Proof please.




No. You'll get your proof in time, if it isn't already obvious to you. Honestly, it should be obvious. It's a shame some people have to get things get really, REALLY bad before they will admit it.

Quote:

Says the guy with youtube videos presented to your own liking




Just because you mock the use of exploring the samples of real opinions that exist out there doesn't mean they DON'T exist. Generalizations aren't going to cut it here and honestly are lazy as fuck. If you have issues with what is presented in the videos, then explain the, "what."

Quote:

Why? I didn't create the survey.




Because if you don't want your accusation to fall flat, you better provide an alternative. It makes absolutely no sense to accuse someone of a loaded survey unless you have an alternative already floating in your head.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26876056 - 08/11/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Qman makes an excellent point.  Everyone here knows exactly what went on, regardless of what side they're on, and regardless of how the questions are specifically worded.

But I would be interested in qman's take on why he thinks the questions would be loaded to someone without the same background the rest of us had, and how he would have worded them differently in that case.




The emotional state (fear) of the protesters was the argument used by members in this thread. So if you asked that question without that consideration, you would be assuming that the protesters were fearful and we don't know that as a fact. So that question is not loaded when applies to the debate that has been occurring specifically in this thread.

So I guess the proper question is to just exclude the assumption of the emotional state and ask if the attack was justified and not include the argument the members were using in the first place.

The second question does not seem to be loaded unless one wants to debate if an "attack" took place, which I don't think even occurred in this thread.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26876058 - 08/11/20 10:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

christopera said:

"mindless mob"

Proof please.




No. You'll get your proof in time, if it isn't already obvious to you. Honestly, it should be obvious. It's a shame some people have to get things get really, REALLY bad before they will admit it.

Quote:

Says the guy with youtube videos presented to your own liking




Just because you mock the use of exploring the samples of real opinions that exist out there doesn't mean they DON'T exist. Generalizations aren't going to cut it here and honestly are lazy as fuck. If you have issues with what is presented in the videos, then explain the, "what."

Quote:

Why? I didn't create the survey.




Because if you don't want your accusation to fall flat, you better provide an alternative. It makes absolutely no sense to accuse someone of a loaded survey unless you have an alternative already floating in your head.




I’ll show you proof in time.

Lol.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things

I’m sorry it had to be me.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: christopera]
    #26876061 - 08/11/20 10:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I won't have to show dick shit. It will be obvious.


--------------------


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: christopera] * 1
    #26876066 - 08/11/20 10:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

qman said:

On its own, yes the survey would have loaded questions, but it's not on it's own. It's in this thread with a lengthy discussion.




qman, you are the fucking king of semantic based arguments, no matter how terrible.

However, when it comes to a questionnaire, there is nothing but semantics. It's literally how the questions are formed, and thereby responded to. So you've only admitted to the failure that are the loaded questions, which you agree happened.

What the fuck else needs to happen? Qman agrees, Fal admits to it (accidentally). Yet you two worm about. Give me a break. It's pathetic.




But most standardized surveys don't exist on a message board after pages of a discussion on a specific event.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
    #26876072 - 08/11/20 10:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You tried so hard to disprove the loaded state that you proved the question loaded.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things

I’m sorry it had to be me.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26876075 - 08/11/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I won't have to show dick shit. It will be obvious.




You poop from your dick?


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things

I’m sorry it had to be me.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: qman]
    #26876087 - 08/11/20 11:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I would be interested in qman's take on why he thinks the questions would be loaded to someone without the same background the rest of us had, and how he would have worded them differently in that case.



The emotional state (fear) of the protesters was the argument used by members in this thread. So if you asked that question without that consideration, you would be assuming that the protesters were fearful and we don't know that as a fact. So that question is not loaded when applies to the debate that has been occurring specifically in this thread.

So I guess the proper question is to just exclude the assumption of the emotional state and ask if the attack was justified and not include the argument the members were using in the first place.



Ah, got it.  Thanks qman.  :chugbeer:

I assumed the people attacked the truck out of fear, but you think I loaded the question in the protesters' favor by assuming that.

That's a fair point.  I misunderstood christopera's question to mean I loaded it in the driver's favor.

My mistake everyone.  Carry on.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26876505 - 08/12/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It seems you have a gripe with "most people here" - I'm reminded of this recent post of yours also directed to Vahn:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
That puts you and I in the minority here, and is why I updated my current signature.  Most people here judge the person or the party, not the content/context.

I think I pissed a few people off on my own side by calling them out on their mistakes.  Not because I'm against THEM, but because of something they said.




And when I called you out on this, you choose to selectively edit the quote in your response to just this:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I think I pissed a few people off on my own side by calling them out on their mistakes.  Not because I'm against THEM, but because of something they said.




And when I called you out on the part you removed, I don't think you ever responded. Maybe you'll take the time to respond now: make believe or do you have evidence for this?



You want evidence that most people here judge the person over the context?

All the recent discussions with Vahn.  Though I disagree with much of what Vahn says, I've been really disappointed in people's lack of logic/evidence in debating him.  Off the top of my head, more people try to shame him than counter his actual arguments.  You're one of the few people that I think does a good job of arguing your position (though we'll disagree that a truck driving slowly towards a crowd should be attacked).  :smirk:



Yes I want evidence for your mske believe, and flattery won't stop me from pressing you.

I want you to link to some of the specific arguments that you have seen vahn make. Direct links. You can start with the argument vahn made in defense of Antifa™ being a domestic terrorist organization.

Source or make believe.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26876842 - 08/12/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
When I called you out on the part you removed, I don't think you ever responded. Maybe you'll take the time to respond now: make believe or do you have evidence for this?



You want evidence that most people here judge the person over the context?

All the recent discussions with Vahn.  Though I disagree with much of what Vahn says, I've been really disappointed in people's lack of logic/evidence in debating him.  Off the top of my head, more people try to shame him than counter his actual arguments.  You're one of the few people that I think does a good job of arguing your position



Yes I want evidence for your mske believe, and flattery won't stop me from pressing you.

I want you to link to some of the specific arguments that you have seen vahn make. Direct links.



I already gave it to you right here.  Or do you not know what an OP is?  Maybe I'm not understanding your question?



Edit:  Here's the OP of the thread in question.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/12/20 01:04 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26876889 - 08/12/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
When I called you out on the part you removed, I don't think you ever responded. Maybe you'll take the time to respond now: make believe or do you have evidence for this?



You want evidence that most people here judge the person over the context?

All the recent discussions with Vahn.  Though I disagree with much of what Vahn says, I've been really disappointed in people's lack of logic/evidence in debating him.  Off the top of my head, more people try to shame him than counter his actual arguments.  You're one of the few people that I think does a good job of arguing your position



Yes I want evidence for your mske believe, and flattery won't stop me from pressing you.

I want you to link to some of the specific arguments that you have seen vahn make. Direct links.



I already gave it to you right here.  Or do you not know what an OP is?  Maybe I'm not understanding your question?



Edit:  Here's the OP of the thread in question.




I think Shiva is asking for you to show him where I've provided *evidence* for my assertions, not just where I've laid out my ideas. You two might be having a misunderstanding.


--------------------


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26876906 - 08/12/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Hard evidence in the case of Antifa is lacking aside from all the breadcrumbs one can put together over time, because of the nature of their organization. (They don't have a website, they work in the shadows, etc...) But their behavior resembles that of terrorism under their guise of "fearing for their safety and the safety of others." It's the same as the dumb, micro-aggression argument. It gives them an excuse to strike out, claiming physical or emotional danger when there obviously is none... and their victims almost always wind up being innocent people.

There's little to no footage of Antifa really doing, "heroic" things. They just disturb the peace, piss people off, break shit, yell in the face of Maga supporters, and basically act like psychologically traumatized junior high students who forgot their medication. One could argue not every person who dresses all in black is apart of a local Antifa chapter/faction, but the majority likely are.

Most of what Antifa does is intentionally done anonymously for a few reasons, one of them of course being the ability to get away with things like... breaking the law, and inciting others to do the same. Their anonymity is their cover.

I've said this before, but ex wife's brother (now a trans-woman), is a member of Antifa and has been since like 2015, so let's just say I got a few chances to pick his/her brain. They of course see themselves as heroes, but I just see it as a big LARP.

There's also a paradox regarding Antifa. If they AREN'T organized, then they will inevitably fall into chaos and disarray without leadership and the American people will suffer in the meantime as they continue to lash out at society, disturb the peace, break shit, and try to murder cops at their home. If they ARE organized, then there's something far more sinister going on that we need to be made aware of.

I lean toward the latter, even if the average Antifa member themselves aren't even aware of it. I've seen this shit before.

It's hard to provide concrete evidence for something that creeps in the shadows intentionally because the light scares it.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/12/20 01:27 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26876932 - 08/12/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I think Shiva is asking for you to show him where I've provided *evidence* for my assertions, not just where I've laid out my ideas. You two might be having a misunderstanding.



Thanks.  I guess I'm just trying to understand what I specifically said that he considers "make believe".

You laid out a definition of terrorism in your OP to include "The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes", and I've seen your videos (and I'm guessing he has too) where you allege they do just that.

People can argue if the videos meet the definition of terrorism, but what I specifically said is "I've been really disappointed in people's lack of logic/evidence in debating him".  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26876936 - 08/12/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That is the textbook definition of terrorism straight from the dictionary.

My argument is that despite how bad cops can be sometimes, the mob is always worse. Always.

EDIT: I know I shouldn't have to say that not all protesters are being rioters, but I'll say it anyway. What makes Antifa in particular more worth accusing of terrorism is their Modus Operandi. The strangest part is, so many of them don't even realize how they are acting.

Nietzsche said, "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

And good old Yoda said, "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

Antifa is really just a representation of a part of America that has become what they claim to hate, whether or not they see it.



Edited by Vahn421 (08/12/20 01:53 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Rapjack]
    #26877302 - 08/12/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rapjack said:
Since we don't know exactly know what goes in the Uighur concentration camps we should all assume the CCP is actually helping them.



Uyghur Genocide just released a video of BBQ style torture going on inside the concentration camps:

https://twitter.com/auighur/status/1272360467479085056

The problem is the video isn't from China, and that’s not a Uyghur Muslim. It’s a BDSM fetish video from Taiwan.

https://tfc-taiwan.org.tw/articles/379



More fake Uyghur news exposed here.

The US is on a mission to make China look worse than really they are.


Again for the record, I'm not saying China is a great country, I'm saying there's a lot of fake news against them right now.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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