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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow] * 2
    #26869984 - 08/08/20 12:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Why won't you address my point Fal?  It isn't like you to run away.



It's only been 12 minutes; I'm replying to every post I can.  :smirk:

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
And I'm pointing out that the driver's intentions don't matter in the slightest.



Agreed.  Do you think protesters belief of other people's intention matters when it's not obvious?




As has been pointed out by others, even if all parties involved had only the best intentions it doesn't negate the right to self defense from a credible threat.  The context of recent events involving slow moving cars whose occupants have killed protesters in recent high profile cases comes into play.  The driver had ample opportunity to avoid the protesters in the street and instead took actions that could be perceived by reasonable people as those of someone seeking confrontation.  Maybe it was all an unfortunate accident in hindsight, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether the actions taken by the protesters in self defense were justified


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26869992 - 08/08/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Bro I've given examples but I got other shit to do than skim through this whole thread and others to link you to examples. Seriously I dont care enough.



So now you're up making up excuses why you won't back up your claims?

:hahthatsrich:

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
People who post here know your tactics so they dont need proof



My 'tactics' are honesty, and asking for proof.  Yes, of course people who hate evidence "don't need proof" (your words).

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
...you'll refute evidence anyway.



I keep asking for examples of 'evidence' I've refuted, and the best people do is make believe things I've said that I haven't.

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Legit I just want you to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others.  If you're unwilling to do that then what more can ya do.



Of course.

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Not worth my time. I got mushrooms to grow and fish to catch.



Of course it's not worth your time to find something that doesn't exist.  I wouldn't waste my time either.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26870002 - 08/08/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
As has been pointed out by others, even if all parties involved had only the best intentions it doesn't negate the right to self defense from a credible threat.  The context of recent events involving slow moving cars whose occupants have killed protesters in recent high profile cases comes into play.



Unless you're hiding a video we haven't yet seen, I don't see how driving a truck on a public road constitutes "a credible threat" and more than a scary looking black guy walking by.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The driver had ample opportunity to avoid the protesters in the street and instead took actions that could be perceived by reasonable people as those of someone seeking confrontation.



How do you know that?  Did you see a video I missed?  It wasn't clear to me from the video that the guy ignored warning and/or keep out signs.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Maybe it was all an unfortunate accident in hindsight, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether the actions taken by the protesters in self defense were justified



Where do you draw the line of a 'credible threat'?  Simply driving a truck on a public road isn't sufficient in my mind, unless you can show the "what ifs" you are talking about are real.

And they may well be real, I just haven't seen the evidence yet.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow] * 1
    #26870008 - 08/08/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Bro I've given examples but I got other shit to do than skim through this whole thread
and others to link you to examples. Seriously I dont care enough. People who post here know your
tactics so they dont need proof and you'll refute evidence anyway.

Legit I just want you to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others.
If you're unwilling to do that then what more can ya do.

Not worth my time. I got mushrooms to grow and fish to catch






You can't even hold yourself to the standard you bitch others to hold themselves to. You ask for Falcon to put up and he does by showing exactly what he said and linking to it multiple time, then when it's your turn you just go, "whatever dude, I got better things to do."

Textbook response for someone with a big ego who can't just concede he made a mistake, really.

I'd be nicer about it,  but you've really given us a hard time for no god damn good reason.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/08/20 12:24 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870014 - 08/08/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Why won't you address my point Fal?  It isn't like you to run away.



It's only been 12 minutes; I'm replying to every post I can.  :smirk:

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
And I'm pointing out that the driver's intentions don't matter in the slightest.



Agreed.  Do you think protesters belief of other people's intention matters when it's not obvious?




As has been pointed out by others, even if all parties involved had only the best intentions it doesn't negate the right to self defense from a credible threat.  The context of recent events involving slow moving cars whose occupants have killed protesters in recent high profile cases comes into play.  The driver had ample opportunity to avoid the protesters in the street and instead took actions that could be perceived by reasonable people as those of someone seeking confrontation.  Maybe it was all an unfortunate accident in hindsight, but that is irrelevant to the question of whether the actions taken by the protesters in self defense were justified




How many times do I have to point out that if a car has malicious intent there's absolutely nothing puny humans could do about it? The only people these idiots on the street will have the CHANCE to fuck over are the innocent ones who are trying to be cautious in the first place.

This is such an asinine argument you're putting out.

EDIT: All that winds up happening is innocent people's vehicles are harmed and then they DO accelerate to safety, creating a higher risk for everyone.

In other words, Antifa created the higher risk. People ready to kill with a car aren't gonna  slow down and let you pop their tires. This is so absurdly obvious.



--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/08/20 12:27 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26870020 - 08/08/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
You can't even hold yourself to the standard you bitch others to hold themselves to. You ask for Falcon to put up and he does by showing exactly what he said and linking to it multiple time, then when it's your turn you just go, "whatever dude, I got better things to do."

Textbook response for someone with a big ego who can't just concede he made a mistake, really.



Thanks for the acknowledgement.  :thumbup:

Apparently there seems to have been a memo I missed saying that you never dispute people on your own side, even if it's obvious they're wrong.  Hence, I had to update my signature.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26870027 - 08/08/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

At least one poster here has claimed to be local to the area.  They have stated that is a long straight road with plenty of alternate routes.  We can confirm in the video that the road is, in fact straight.  In the video we can also confirm that the large crowd in the street parts as the truck accelerates toward them.  This indicates that they were, in fact, in the road.  Pretty hard to miss a huge crowd in the straight road you are driving down, isnt it?  The yelling and screaming starts some few seconds before the truck comes into the frame.  This indicates that at least some people there perceived the truck as a threat.  The person on a motorcycle sacrifices their bike in an attempt to stop the truck from proceeding into the crowd.  You don't let someone crash into your bike just for the hell of it, do you?  All of these things make it more or less impossible for the driver to not realize that he was driving directly into a large crowd.  That being the case, I don't see how a reasonable person in the path of that truck wouldn't have perceived it as a credible threat. 

If you think that is comparable to punching random black people then I don't know how to help you understand


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870033 - 08/08/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If it was a credible threat, it wouldn't have even stopped. You have no chance to stop a car or a truck. This is the dumbest LARP I've ever hard these Antifa guys playing... "We can stop cars! We're heroes!" My god, how disconnected from reality do you have to be?

You. Cannot. Stop. A. Fucking. Truck. That. Doesn't. Want. To. Stop.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/08/20 12:37 PM)


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26870034 - 08/08/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Again, not worth my time. Multiple people have supplied multiple examples of fal
calling others make believers for asserting intent, yet when he does it it's labled "obvious" by him.

He has, multiple times, inferred the meaning of vahns words as if he's a mind
reader and when called out on it he claims, again, that it was obvious what his intent was.

Everybody here has witnessed it, I'm not going back to find posts and waste
my time just to be refuted by fal.

@fal- you cant have it both ways. In one sentence you say intent is impossible to
know, then in the next sentence you claim vahns intent is obvious, the drivers fear is obvious,
trumps true meaning was obvious etc.

Not playing these games anymore you guys can continue to run around in circles if you want.


--------------------


Edited by natedawgnow (08/08/20 12:44 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870042 - 08/08/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
At least one poster here has claimed to be local to the area.  They have stated that is a long straight road with plenty of alternate routes.  We can confirm in the video that the road is, in fact straight.



I'm not disputing that, but were there signs saying "keep out" or "detour" or anything like that to warn the driver?

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
In the video we can also confirm that the large crowd in the street parts as the truck accelerates toward them.  This indicates that they were, in fact, in the road.  Pretty hard to miss a huge crowd in the straight road you are driving down, isnt it?



He missed them all, didn't he?  And he didn't accelerate until AFTER he was attacked.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The yelling and screaming starts some few seconds before the truck comes into the frame.  This indicates that at least some people there perceived the truck as a threat.



Some people perceive scary looking men as a threat.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The person on a motorcycle sacrifices their bike in an attempt to stop the truck from proceeding into the crowd.  You don't let someone crash into your bike just for the hell of it, do you?



I'm not disagreeing some people were nervous about a truck driving down the road.  I'm disagreeing that attacking the truck was the best course of action, given that no one knew what the intent of the driver was.  Was he expecting the crowd step aside as he drove through?  Were there warning signs that truck could see before reaching the crowd? 

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
All of these things make it more or less impossible for the driver to not realize that he was driving directly into a large crowd.



OF COURSE he saw the crowd.  That doesn't mean he planned to run over them.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I don't see how a reasonable person in the path of that truck wouldn't have perceived it as a credible threat.



Clearly lots of people here disagree.  But now we're discussing opinions, and no one is wrong about their own opinion.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26870065 - 08/08/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

no one is wrong about their own opinion




I get what you mean by this, but when different outlooks applied across the board in societies play out, you can wind up with drastically different results.

Morality may be grey, but you can't escape cause and effect.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (08/08/20 12:58 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26870073 - 08/08/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Again, not worth my time.  Everybody here has witnessed it, I'm not going back to find posts and waste my time just to be refuted by fal.



Of course its' not worth your time.  We both know you can't find proof of make believe.

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Multiple people have supplied multiple examples of fal calling others make believers for asserting intent, yet when he does it it's labled "obvious" by him.



I provided four separate links proving you wrong, and you can't find even ONE link proving you right.  Pathetic.

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
He has, multiple times, inferred the meaning of vahns words as if he's a mind reader



And multiple times vahn has confirmed my meaning was correct.  And if it's not, I WANT him to correct me that because I prefer accuracy, unlike the make believers here.

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
@fal- you cant have it both ways. In one sentence you say intent is impossible to know, then in the next sentence you claim vahns intent is obvious, the drivers fear is obvious, trumps true meaning was obvious etc.



Vahn can (and should) correct me when I'm wrong, and so far he's said I've been reading him correctly.  If you don't think it's obvious the driver got scared after people started breaking in his windshield, then I think you're not being very realistic.  And I NEVER said Trump's true meaning was obvious, that's even more make believe (prove me wrong).  I only point out the full context of his speeches, or what he himself (or his staff) says he meant.  To me, that beats what people make believe.

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Not playing these games anymore you guys can continue to run around in circles if you want.



If truth is a game that you don't want to play, you should join the kindeegarten forum.  Because that's what you'll keep getting from me here (again, prove me wrong with evidence, and don't just keep make believing things about me).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26870084 - 08/08/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I said MANY times we can't know his intent (here and here and here and here), and if you say you do, you're make believing.

What I said appeared "obvious", was that the guy got scared after a motorcycle drove in front of his truck and people started throwing large objects at him. 

PLEASE prove me wrong, or just STOP with all the make believe.  All I seem to do anymore is point out people's make believe.




Explain how this isn't you claiming to know the intent of the driver:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I was agreeing that the attack of the truck itself is what provoked the dangerous response (that's clear from the video).




--------------------


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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26870092 - 08/08/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Bullshit fal logic incoming in 3...2...1...

WASTE OF EFFORT


--------------------


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26870094 - 08/08/20 01:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Rapjack said:
Since we don't know exactly know what goes in the Uighur concentration camps we should all assume the CCP is actually helping them.



:lolwut:

Why would you assume that???



Probably because of this:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Have you seen the drone footage of the Uighur Muslims being hauled off to concentration camps?

What's your take on it?



The same take you just quoted.  :shrug:

"they're hauling Falun Gong off to teach them how to better integrate into Chines society.




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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26870139 - 08/08/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

natedawgnow said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Explain how this isn't you claiming to know the intent of the driver:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I was agreeing that the attack of the truck itself is what provoked the dangerous response (that's clear from the video).






Bullshit fal logic incoming in 3...2...1...

WASTE OF EFFORT



In other words, get ready for fal to explain, because he doesn't like it when people make believe.

Yes, I previously said it seemed clear that the guy wanted to get out of there quickly after he got attacked.  Should he have let them continue to bash his truck in, or should he have had the clarity of mind to do a safe three point turn to get the truck pointed in the other direction?  If I were in his shoes, I'd have been pretty scared if my windows were being bashed in.

I previously asked shivas:  "What did he do that was dangerous before he was attacked" and the only answer I got was that he was driving towards a group of protesters (that he obviously saw) at what appeared to be a reasonable speed.

Again, did he ignore warning signs telling him to stay off that road and take a detour?  If so, I think there is a good argument against the driver.  If not, it's possible he may have thought he could slowly approach the crowd and drive through as they got out of the way.  I DON'T KNOW his intentions, but I DO KNOW he floored it AFTER he was attacked.  That part was clear from the video, as that's what I told shivas.

Now you're free to cry about my explanation.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26870143 - 08/08/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
At least one poster here has claimed to be local to the area.  They have stated that is a long straight road with plenty of alternate routes.  We can confirm in the video that the road is, in fact straight.



I'm not disputing that, but were there signs saying "keep out" or "detour" or anything like that to warn the driver?

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
In the video we can also confirm that the large crowd in the street parts as the truck accelerates toward them.  This indicates that they were, in fact, in the road.  Pretty hard to miss a huge crowd in the straight road you are driving down, isnt it?



He missed them all, didn't he?  And he didn't accelerate until AFTER he was attacked.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The yelling and screaming starts some few seconds before the truck comes into the frame.  This indicates that at least some people there perceived the truck as a threat.



Some people perceive scary looking men as a threat.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
The person on a motorcycle sacrifices their bike in an attempt to stop the truck from proceeding into the crowd.  You don't let someone crash into your bike just for the hell of it, do you?



I'm not disagreeing some people were nervous about a truck driving down the road.  I'm disagreeing that attacking the truck was the best course of action, given that no one knew what the intent of the driver was.  Was he expecting the crowd step aside as he drove through?  Were there warning signs that truck could see before reaching the crowd? 

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
All of these things make it more or less impossible for the driver to not realize that he was driving directly into a large crowd.



OF COURSE he saw the crowd.  That doesn't mean he planned to run over them.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
I don't see how a reasonable person in the path of that truck wouldn't have perceived it as a credible threat.



Clearly lots of people here disagree.  But now we're discussing opinions, and no one is wrong about their own opinion.




You are moving goalposts now.  I never said that attacking the truck was the best course of action.  I said that it was justified under principles of self defense.

You admit that the driver had to have seen the crowd
You admit that several protesters clearly perceived the truck as a direct and credible threat
It is virtually never legal to drive a vehicle through a crowd no matter how slowly regardless of whether you really want to use that road right then or not.
There really isn't anything more to discuss.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26870144 - 08/08/20 01:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why would you assume that???



Probably because of this:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Have you seen the drone footage of the Uighur Muslims being hauled off to concentration camps?

What's your take on it?



The same take you just quoted.  :shrug:

"they're hauling Falun Gong off to teach them how to better integrate into Chines society.






Right, and I also said "I'm not saying that's right or good".

But that's what the camps are for.  Would you like an article proving this, or can you do your own search?

We always love the Muslim extremists, like when we sided with Osama Bin Laden and the Mujahideen against the progressive government of Afghanistan.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26870166 - 08/08/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
In other words, get ready for fal to explain, because he doesn't like it when people make believe.

Yes, I previously said it seemed clear that the guy wanted to get out of there quickly after he got attacked.  Should he have let them continue to bash his truck in, or should he have had the clarity of mind to do a safe three point turn to get the truck pointed in the other direction?  If I were in his shoes, I'd have been pretty scared if my windows were being bashed in.



Explain how that isn't you claiming to know the drivers intent.


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Re: Is there ANY good argument for blocking traffic? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26870167 - 08/08/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
You are moving goalposts now.  I never said that attacking the truck was the best course of action.  I said that it was justified under principles of self defense.



You're right, I shouldn't have said "I'm disagreeing that attacking the truck was the best course of action", I should have said "I'm disagreeing that attacking the truck was justified by self defense".  I'm not moving any goalposts; I agreed some people may have perceived this as a threat. 

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
You admit that the driver had to have seen the crowd
You admit that several protesters clearly perceived the truck as a direct and credible threat
It is virtually never legal to drive a vehicle through a crowd no matter how slowly regardless of whether you really want to use that road right then or not.

There really isn't anything more to discuss.



Are you afraid of discussion?

I'd like to discuss your claim that "it is virtually never legal to drive a vehicle through a crowd no matter how slowly".  I didn't know that, and I've done it before on unmarked roads without knowing it was illegal.  Do you have source for that claim?  I'm not saying you're wrong, but I was unable to find it on Google.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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