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Offlineteamasterdrinker
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Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes
    #26859114 - 08/02/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This is my 3rd attempt at growing cubes using the PF-Tek method and I've noticed this orange/yellow discoloration appearing on some jars a few times.  I'm hoping to get some insight into what this may be and the cause of it.  When I've birthed previous jars that had this discoloration on them they smelled fine (fresh mushroom smell) and I've picked at the orange and it seemed very superficial on the cake.  Some photos below:





Any input is appreciated. Thanks!


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OfflineGayfish
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: teamasterdrinker]
    #26859125 - 08/02/20 03:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Metabolites I believe (mycelium piss in some people’s words?)?

I think it’s signs of a slight bacterial infection, but the consensus is that it’s harmless?

I dunno though? So question marks everywhere?


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Offlineteamasterdrinker
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: Gayfish]
    #26859149 - 08/02/20 03:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gayfish said:
Metabolites I believe (mycelium piss in some people’s words?)?

I think it’s signs of a slight bacterial infection, but the consensus is that it’s harmless?

I dunno though? So question marks everywhere?




Thanks for the response.  I guess to take this one step further, my follow up questions are:
  1)Is there a way to confirm its Metabolites and not contamination.  Meaning
  its safe to eat or do people just throw them out and not risk it?
  2)Do we know why some jars produce the metabolites and not others?  Does it
  have something to do with the BRF - vermiculite - water ratios?


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OfflineGayfish
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: teamasterdrinker]
    #26859784 - 08/02/20 09:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

1. I’d say let the jar grow out, and then Update the post when the cake is fully colonized and see what the community says at that point. Can’t fruit the jar right now anyway, so don’t stress on it too much.

2. As I said earlier, I believe it’s the myceliums reaction to a bacterial infection. Often bacterial infections aren’t show stoppers for a grow, it may not produce as well as a clean culture, but you’ll probably still get some fruit out of it, if it ever finishes colonizing.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11687852#11687852

I searched metabolites on the forum, and this thread came up. I didn’t bother to look through the whole thing, but just on the first page are number plus examples of grows that have bacterial infections and are spewing metabolites, many of which turned out just fine. Also in the thread there is a few reasons stated for why metabolites show up. It’s a 10 year old post, so maybe information has changed since then. Someone quoted RR though, so it’s probably good info.


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Offlineteamasterdrinker
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: Gayfish]
    #26860558 - 08/03/20 10:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Alright thanks for providing the link, there was some good stuff in there. Except for when they started saying that it might be their cats pissing in the tubs causing the yellow spots:blush:

But RR's quote was helpful.
Quote:

We get a lot of requests for identification of contaminants vs metabolites, and I realized we didn't have any really clear pictures of what metabolites actually look like as they form on the mycelium. These two pictures were taken at 30X through a zoom microscope. They show the actual beads of metabolites being excreted, and the brown/yellow stains in the vicinity of the secretions.

For ID purposes vs molds, look at the line between the stained part and the non stained part. You'll see there is no line of different mycelium types as you would have if mushroom mycelium was running up against a competitor. What you have here is simply staining and is perfectly normal.

An excess of metabolites can point towards bacterial contamination, over-colonization of a substrate, or too high a temperature.
RR





It's been a pretty hot summer here and the room where the jars a incubating ranges from 27 C to 30 C so that might be part of the issue as well (I think the ideal temp is 25 C to 27 C?).


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OfflinePantomath
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: teamasterdrinker]
    #26894285 - 08/22/20 08:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, Moisture content within the jars is very important!
Make sure that the substrate is at proper mix-ratio, that's number one!
    Too moist or too dry  will slow-down mycelum colonization.
    In swim's mind, immediately after the jars are removed from the PC, gases starts to exchange. These gases carry along, and introduce,  contams back into the jar. That's why swim puts 1" of verm above the substrate, so these contams will sit on that nutrition-less and dry layer of verm. They will remain neutralized, until you give then an environment good enough to live for, light, food and water.
    So, to your orange-discoloration concern, definitely a metabolite discoloration, which can be due to war between mycelums and bacteriums. The start of this contam could be due to the square container your are using, expelling too much moisture too fast from the lid, efing up the exchange ratio you started of with and bringing mad bacteria inside.
    Also in the PC process, are you venting your jars before dropping the petcock in?! Cause You should. Maybe you started off with a bad moisture ratio, which all lead to contams. Also keep jars in the dark. If exposed to light, and with addition of high FAE, pins will start to grow within glass, then suffocate up, die, recycle by mycelium, start again. This also create orange metabolites. And lastly, if you inoc 11ml in a little jar, that's a lot of liquid solution, it will over-moist the substrate and mess things up, too. Specially if using liquid spores, LC's would be more forgiving on this case, but that's another matter.


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Offlineteamasterdrinker
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: Pantomath]
    #26897864 - 08/24/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the response and I do have an update on progess with some more photos.

I used the 2 part verm, 1 part water, 1 part BRF ratios and made sure that the mixture reached field capacity with just barely any excess water squeezing out of the mixture when pressed. I definitely put the 1" of dry verm on top as well and inoculated with a spore syringe (about 1mL per jar).  However I am still using a pot with boiling water for 1.5 hours for my sterilizing.

I was having trouble finding more wide mouth 250mL jars so I was using those cups but I finally got more jars so that will be the last time I use those cups.

But you can tell from the photos below that there are some soggy spots on the cakes and the mycelium didn't colonize those sections.  But the jars started to pin so I birthed them.  Not the best looking jars I've birthed but I want to find out why they are too soggy.  Is that just adding to much water at the beginning or also maybe too much spore solution?  Anyone know if having the cakes soggy in those sections decreases the performance of the cakes?



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OfflinePantomath
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: teamasterdrinker]
    #26911213 - 09/01/20 05:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Just in case you don't know, your cakes will never pin if they do not get enough air exchange and light, period. So, if your cakes pinned within the jars(square container) there's only two reasons:
#1 Your cake is getting light exposed.
#2 Your cake is breathing to much air(lid is loose and or leaking from the seams).
So, fix it!
    For your mix-ratio procedure, that is good! The 1ml injection, that's good too, specially if you used multiple points of injection. But your sterilization process is not. It is possible to sterilize using a pan of boiling water but its not a risk-free procedure. People use this method but everyone knows the pressure cooker is the way to go. Every lab/hospital in the world has a pressure cooker to sterilize tools that have been used in their procedures, otherwise they would have to throw out scalpels every time they chop somebody, or something. They use the term "autoclave" instead of pressure cooker. Look up "autoclaving" on google to learn more about the importance of this tool in sterile operations. SWIM knows that a pressure cooker with a cup of water for 30 minutes will do better than 1.5 hours of pan-boil procedures. There's techniques to help u avoid buying a pressure cooker but that's for you to follow and read closely, there's plenty of techniques in our blog.

1.5 hours of boiling must have taken you a lot of water so the pan don't dry up, and that is the beginning of your problems, because much steam evaporate from, or get into your cake mix. The badly-sealed container is probably a major in your case, as SWIM know its possible to sterilize in the 1.5hrs pan-boil technique. You see, if u used those square jars on the Pressure cooker, it would work much better even with the bad seal, not much moisture sips into your cakes.

About the soggy spots on the cake, well, where can SWIM start, there's a few points to consider:
    #1 if you cake is not fully colonized(white as snow), the mycelium within the cake(core) is unlikely to be fully colonized;
    #2 if your cake has spots of vermiculite without mycelium, moisture will race out of your cakes from transpiration, contams will develop in those areas, this will create a highway of contams rushing right into the core of your cake, spreading further and faster than the mycelium can ever fight off/control. Fully colonized cakes become like a vault, sealing the core full of energy from any contams.
    #3 if the cake is not fully colonized it means they are still growing, spending and focusing all their energies into colonizing, therefore their immune system is weak/weaker than a fully colonized one. Imagine trying to eat food and fight-off someone at the same time, Swim thinks that's a bad combination for success, and that's what happens to your cake on a micro-level.

So, in SWIM's mind, you boiled your jars with enough moisture inside  but with a bad seal. When H20 is boiled it turns to stem, the steam forms inside and under that aluminum foil you had on lid, starts dripping inside the cakes, for 1.5 hours. They soak up with water, and there's no way to know because you cannot open your cakes after sterilization. The excess moisture in the cake drops to the bottom in form of water, meanwhile some evaporate to the top because of transpiration, specially with a bad lid/seal. Because of all that, the mycelium has a tough time to colonizing, specially in the bottom of the jar where the most water stay at.
So the soggy can be the excess moisture trying to escape the cake from the exposed areas, vermiculite spots, which contams love, they love moisture and air and nutrition. Your cakes look great except those spots, at this point, since there's nothing you can do to fix it, try to see how many caps pops-out before you see the mold/fungi/bacteria grow all over the thing, overnight, because its coming your way lol its inevitable, and part of your learning experience, you can only learn from your mistakes.
Performance wise, SWIM knows your not gonna get as much caps from it(compared to a fully-colonized), but the quantity of active substances by weight will be the same.
The cons would be that you could eat some bacteria or mold which could upset your stomach or traumatize you from mushrooms, because one could relate a bad experience with the mushroom itself.

SWIM always wait so long, hes very very patient. After cake is fully white, he waits 2 more weeks so that the mycelium feed well, fully colonize inside the core and stablish grounds/foundation for fruiting. Wow, what a world of difference, fast fruits and massive clusters of 60+ pins, magazine stuff.


P.s. SWIM knows its sad to trow out cakes in situations like this but you will learn that your next batch will appreciate that your home or fruiting-chamber is spore free, contam spore-free that is, because ones they colonize to a extent they spore-out and become super airborne and on a micro-level, will get in every nook and cranny. Then cleaning becomes a b*tch haha.

SWIM hopes this helps, let me know whats your results as of now, intrigued to know if you gonna get mushroom or green mold first. SWIM bet the green mold will be first, and if so, trow them out before it gets everywhere, they can grow around 20% of your cake overnight, literally, 12hrs.


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Offlineteamasterdrinker
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: Pantomath]
    #26912745 - 09/01/20 08:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pantomath said:
Just in case you don't know, your cakes will never pin if they do not get enough air exchange and light, period. So, if your cakes pinned within the jars(square container) there's only two reasons:
#1 Your cake is getting light exposed.
#2 Your cake is breathing to much air(lid is loose and or leaking from the seams).
So, fix it!
    For your mix-ratio procedure, that is good! The 1ml injection, that's good too, specially if you used multiple points of injection. But your sterilization process is not. It is possible to sterilize using a pan of boiling water but its not a risk-free procedure. People use this method but everyone knows the pressure cooker is the way to go. Every lab/hospital in the world has a pressure cooker to sterilize tools that have been used in their procedures, otherwise they would have to throw out scalpels every time they chop somebody, or something. They use the term "autoclave" instead of pressure cooker. Look up "autoclaving" on google to learn more about the importance of this tool in sterile operations. SWIM knows that a pressure cooker with a cup of water for 30 minutes will do better than 1.5 hours of pan-boil procedures. There's techniques to help u avoid buying a pressure cooker but that's for you to follow and read closely, there's plenty of techniques in our blog.

1.5 hours of boiling must have taken you a lot of water so the pan don't dry up, and that is the beginning of your problems, because much steam evaporate from, or get into your cake mix. The badly-sealed container is probably a major in your case, as SWIM know its possible to sterilize in the 1.5hrs pan-boil technique. You see, if u used those square jars on the Pressure cooker, it would work much better even with the bad seal, not much moisture sips into your cakes.

About the soggy spots on the cake, well, where can SWIM start, there's a few points to consider:
    #1 if you cake is not fully colonized(white as snow), the mycelium within the cake(core) is unlikely to be fully colonized;
    #2 if your cake has spots of vermiculite without mycelium, moisture will race out of your cakes from transpiration, contams will develop in those areas, this will create a highway of contams rushing right into the core of your cake, spreading further and faster than the mycelium can ever fight off/control. Fully colonized cakes become like a vault, sealing the core full of energy from any contams.
    #3 if the cake is not fully colonized it means they are still growing, spending and focusing all their energies into colonizing, therefore their immune system is weak/weaker than a fully colonized one. Imagine trying to eat food and fight-off someone at the same time, Swim thinks that's a bad combination for success, and that's what happens to your cake on a micro-level.

So, in SWIM's mind, you boiled your jars with enough moisture inside  but with a bad seal. When H20 is boiled it turns to stem, the steam forms inside and under that aluminum foil you had on lid, starts dripping inside the cakes, for 1.5 hours. They soak up with water, and there's no way to know because you cannot open your cakes after sterilization. The excess moisture in the cake drops to the bottom in form of water, meanwhile some evaporate to the top because of transpiration, specially with a bad lid/seal. Because of all that, the mycelium has a tough time to colonizing, specially in the bottom of the jar where the most water stay at.
So the soggy can be the excess moisture trying to escape the cake from the exposed areas, vermiculite spots, which contams love, they love moisture and air and nutrition. Your cakes look great except those spots, at this point, since there's nothing you can do to fix it, try to see how many caps pops-out before you see the mold/fungi/bacteria grow all over the thing, overnight, because its coming your way lol its inevitable, and part of your learning experience, you can only learn from your mistakes.
Performance wise, SWIM knows your not gonna get as much caps from it(compared to a fully-colonized), but the quantity of active substances by weight will be the same.
The cons would be that you could eat some bacteria or mold which could upset your stomach or traumatize you from mushrooms, because one could relate a bad experience with the mushroom itself.

SWIM always wait so long, hes very very patient. After cake is fully white, he waits 2 more weeks so that the mycelium feed well, fully colonize inside the core and stablish grounds/foundation for fruiting. Wow, what a world of difference, fast fruits and massive clusters of 60+ pins, magazine stuff.


P.s. SWIM knows its sad to trow out cakes in situations like this but you will learn that your next batch will appreciate that your home or fruiting-chamber is spore free, contam spore-free that is, because ones they colonize to a extent they spore-out and become super airborne and on a micro-level, will get in every nook and cranny. Then cleaning becomes a b*tch haha.

SWIM hopes this helps, let me know whats your results as of now, intrigued to know if you gonna get mushroom or green mold first. SWIM bet the green mold will be first, and if so, trow them out before it gets everywhere, they can grow around 20% of your cake overnight, literally, 12hrs.



:thumbup: wow! Thanks!
Yes it seems like getting a pressure cooker and the proper mason jars will solve most of those issues.

I have dunk and rolled and the cakes are fruiting.  I've noticed some light blue on the surface of some cakes ( no green..... yet??) so I'm thinking its just bruising.


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OfflinePantomath
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: teamasterdrinker]
    #26916720 - 09/04/20 02:32 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Congratulations, teammasterdrinker! Those caps look great!

    You will appreciate the PC for sure, you will get a high success rate; water content will remain proper after boiling; mycelium will colonize faster; you will have stress-free days from worrying if there is any contams or not, you will know its 100% sterilized.
Essentially healthy mycelium means faster and potent and bigger yields.
    Also with PC, there will be more techniques that you can take advantage of, like lc and agar plating and cloning, and good old home cooking, meats that fall of the bone :tongue:

    Yeah if its blue your cool! Dunking and rolling plus touching(grabbing) the cakes tends to do some bruising, so try to always improve on your handling techniques.

    Just keep an eye on it make sure "blue" its not going everywhere, and make sure your cake smell good. SWIM sniffs his chamber everyday before misting and if it smells like sweat, or dull stale air, he fans and increases FAE by opening more vent holes, but if it smell like srooms and water, keep it there until fruiting is done. Cakes should never smell funky, only sroomy.
    Let me know what you got in wet grams(average)for each, also whats your plans with them, tea, raw, dehydrate..


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Offlineteamasterdrinker
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: Pantomath]
    #26922067 - 09/06/20 09:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Pantomath said:
Congratulations, teammasterdrinker! Those caps look great!

    You will appreciate the PC for sure, you will get a high success rate; water content will remain proper after boiling; mycelium will colonize faster; you will have stress-free days from worrying if there is any contams or not, you will know its 100% sterilized.
Essentially healthy mycelium means faster and potent and bigger yields.
    Also with PC, there will be more techniques that you can take advantage of, like lc and agar plating and cloning, and good old home cooking, meats that fall of the bone :tongue:





Those all sound like great things!:mushroom2:

Quote:

Pantomath said:

    Let me know what you got in wet grams(average)for each, also whats your plans with them, tea, raw, dehydrate..




So far after the first flush of the 5 cakes I've gotten 17 dried grams.  I don't typically weigh them when they're wet, I always just put them straight into the dehydrator.  I'll post the total weight once all 3 flushes are done


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OfflinePantomath
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: teamasterdrinker]
    #26948886 - 09/22/20 07:25 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

SMIM happy and very surprised you got that much out of it, that's really great news!
You must have a squeaky-clean home/air, he was almost 100% sure they would turn green quickly.
    You are either a clean freak or a born scientist or just incredibly lucky haha :grin:, either way you got this! Keep improving your techniques. With a PC in place, you can play around other odds, like adding a humidifier to your FC, it improve yields and speed up the fruiting and flushes. We can talk about these more later, just ask when you ready to hear.

:eek:  Seriously, 3 flushes!?!! You must be part-magician or religious haha If you get 3 flushes SWIM needs your recipe, or your Blessing hahaha :grin:, cause 3 would be a push in he's book, but hey, you already begun to defy science the moment you birthed the cakes, so he don't see why not, let me know!

Its really awesome to hear back from your experiments, super-fun! Swim's learning from you as well, so thank you.

BTW...
17g (crackly-dried) = 170g wet
You can change around % of substrate contents and environment but it doesn't change, its always 10% of the wet weight.
SWIM thinks you did fantastic! Averaged 3.4g dry per cake@1st flush, anyone would be happy with that! It's just about enough for 2 light trips or 1 heavy one per cake per flush.

So you chewing it(dry or wet), mixing w food, making teas? Is this your first time consuming it?


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OfflinePretendhole
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Re: Orange Discoloration on BRF Cakes [Re: Pantomath]
    #26948917 - 09/22/20 08:01 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Air got in your jar


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