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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: gopher] * 2
    #26859057 - 08/02/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You really just have to make sure your source is credible and try to watch any videos arguing against them if there are any. When someone is putting content on youtube the majoriry of the time they're acting for a profit, which will nearly always influence their content and how they interpret data. The profit comes in selling a theory or narrative or whatever, not in detailing everything that's lacking in the studies you're citing or going over the evidence to the contrary of what you're promoting.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead] * 2
    #26859099 - 08/02/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

koods said:
The placebo must share enough macroscopic properties that both the patient and the doctor cannot tell the difference visually




A placebo is an inert, sugar pill or saline solution with no additives.

Anything else should not be classified as a placebo.




A proper vaccine placebo should probably contain the same ingredients as the real vaccine, except for the active ingredient.

And there’s nothing biologically inert about sugar or an electrolyte solution.

When you’re a senior, you’ll probably have a biology course. Pay attention.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (08/02/20 03:04 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: koods]
    #26859129 - 08/02/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

HamHead explained himself what the downsides of a completely inert placebo can be, yet he's holding up saline as a gold standard. And he provided a quote that seemed to be saying "it's unethical to do placebo trials if there is already a working vaccine" as evidence that researchers use a definition of "placebo" so broad that it includes working vaccines.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: morrowasted]
    #26859173 - 08/02/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Bodhi, I also found the website you yanked those answers from. Our ability to type "effect size calculator" into google is equal! I should have realized when i asked the question that there would be one out there.



When I was in college the program everyone used was called spss but now websites do the same shit


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:whyyy:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26859174 - 08/02/20 03:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

wtf, we were forced to do the calculations on pen and paper :shrug:


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: feevers]
    #26859226 - 08/02/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

That might be being generous. Youtube is more like anyone who wants to broadcast their views and censor opposition. You can make profit sure, but most of my experience tends to be it being an echo chamber for anything.


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: psi]
    #26859234 - 08/02/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
HamHead explained himself what the downsides of a completely inert placebo can be, yet he's holding up saline as a gold standard. And he provided a quote that seemed to be saying "it's unethical to do placebo trials if there is already a working vaccine" as evidence that researchers use a definition of "placebo" so broad that it includes working vaccines.




There are no 'down sides' to a true placebo.

And you must not have read through that link, you might understand why it would be unethical to provide a placebo in an area with high risk disease, when an effective 'placebo control' is available to better protect test subjects than an actual placebo.


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The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead] * 1
    #26859255 - 08/02/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe I'm not reading your post right but you appear to be saying "true placebos don't have downsides" and then immediately saying "using a true placebo is unethical under circumstance XYZ...

am I missing something here??? how is that not a blatant self-contradiction?


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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead] * 1
    #26859256 - 08/02/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with the op sad to see such disinformation at a time like this. Willful destruction by the sickest people on the earth.


--------------------
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Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many :heart:


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead] * 1
    #26859257 - 08/02/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
There are no 'down sides' to a true placebo.





This is the downside you laid out. I'm not talking about side effects.

Quote:

HamHead said:
When a placebo is used in vaccine trials, it is common knowledge that there will be some reactions at injection site at least. If a placebo, inert, saline solution with no activity is given and no reaction happens, people are likely to conclude that they recieved a placebo..







Quote:

And you must not have read through that link, you might understand why it would be unethical to provide a placebo in an area with high risk disease, when an effective 'placebo control' is available to better protect test subjects than an actual placebo.




I read only your quote, not the link, but I have no trouble understanding the ethical consideration they're talking about regarding withholding a working treatment. I just don't think it supported your claim that accompanied the quote.

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

psi said:
Above you explained the potential disadvantages to that though (absence of expected side effects tipping the patient or researcher off that the placebo was given, and sabotaging the double blind thing). It would seem there are pros and cons to both approaches.


The definition you gave may be the one you prefer, but from your own evidence it would seem actual scientists use the word placebo in a broader way.




Yes, very broad, as in testing vaccines against other vaccines, as placebo.




Your quote discussed testing vaccines against other vaccines, but it did not refer to the vaccines by the term "placebo". On the contrary it suggested not doing placebo trials when there is a working vaccine already. So they are not in fact using the word "placebo" so broadly as to refer to a working vaccine as you suggested.


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Offlinegopher
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: psi]
    #26859263 - 08/02/20 04:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

the down side to placebos is when you are testing a diabetes medication, cause the placebo is a sugar pill so they are giving diabetics sugar in that case


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For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead] * 2
    #26859264 - 08/02/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:


There are no 'down sides' to a true placebo.

And you must not have read through that link, you might understand why it would be unethical to provide a placebo in an area with high risk disease, when an effective 'placebo control' is available to better protect test subjects than an actual placebo.




Yes there are.  In this case, breaking the blind is probably the most substantial downside, though of lesser concern in vaccine development.


Edited by badchad (08/02/20 04:53 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: badchad]
    #26859267 - 08/02/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

And HamHead himself acknowledged that consideration in the post I quoted.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead]
    #26859269 - 08/02/20 04:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
Quote:

psi said:
HamHead explained himself what the downsides of a completely inert placebo can be, yet he's holding up saline as a gold standard. And he provided a quote that seemed to be saying "it's unethical to do placebo trials if there is already a working vaccine" as evidence that researchers use a definition of "placebo" so broad that it includes working vaccines.




There are no 'down sides' to a true placebo.

And you must not have read through that link, you might understand why it would be unethical to provide a placebo in an area with high risk disease, when an effective 'placebo control' is available to better protect test subjects than an actual placebo.



Omg the reason it’s not ethical is because all patients should be receiving a treatment with proven efficacy


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Offlinekoods
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: gopher]
    #26859277 - 08/02/20 04:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gopher said:
the down side to placebos is when you are testing a diabetes medication, cause the placebo is a sugar pill so they are giving diabetics sugar in that case




I doubt actual placebos are sugar pills. They would be similar to the pills with the active ingredient. Polyethylene Glycol and methylcellulose


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: psi] * 1
    #26859279 - 08/02/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157320/

"Finally, as part of the discussions around trial design, investigators, sponsors and RECs should consider different types of “placebo” interventions. Rather than using a true placebo control (i.e. an inert substance), it may be appropriate to use a vaccine against a disease that is not the focus of the trial (e.g. an ongoing malaria vaccine trial provides non-malaria vaccines to participants in the control arm [21,22]). The motivation for using these types of “placebos” is to benefit participants in the control arm and avoid giving an injection with an inert substance."

Furthermore, it is important to recognize that trials using such “placebos” may provide a less perfect control if the effects of the comparator vaccine(s) confound the evaluation of the risk-benefit profile of the experimental vaccine. For this reason, use of such “placebos” may also be less acceptable to regulators or public health authorities and potentially delay approval or adoption of a new vaccine."

Just because they say they use a "placebo", does not mean it is a completely inert substance.

Oh, and you go read that link, they put those "" around "placebo", not me.


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


Edited by HamHead (08/02/20 05:00 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: HamHead]
    #26859281 - 08/02/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, I agree you have supported your claim. Would have saved us both a bit of time if you had quoted the relevant part in the first place.


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: psi]
    #26859283 - 08/02/20 05:03 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psi said:
Ok, I agree you have supported your claim.



:ohwow:


--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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InvisiblePrimal Glitch
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: morrowasted]
    #26859287 - 08/02/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Psicomvb said:
Thank you for this post man.  In the age of internet the loudest ones are often the ones who are followed, not the smartest.  I'm glad to see this post being loud AND smart.




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                                  make the changa you wish to see in the world
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Offlinekoods
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Re: PubMed: Both a blessing and a curse [Re: Primal Glitch]
    #26859304 - 08/02/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

What is hamhead arguing about?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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