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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,809
Loc: Canada
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859306 - 08/02/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would try a completely new grain. That or look for a giant garbage can full of trich under the stairs.
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Registered: 06/25/19
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859310 - 08/02/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I opened a plate and held it in front of different areas in front of the hepa filter for about 2 minutes, then flame sterilized my scalpel let it cool and waved it around in front of different areas of my hepa filter and made a blank transfer. I did this with 2 separate plates, sealed them, and labeled them. They are now sitting at room temp and I will post updates of them over the next few weeks. At the end of the few weeks I'll drop them into separate jars and monitor what they do in grains. After that I'll do g2g with them and continue monitoring them.
Before blank transfer

After blank transfer, I chopped the agar up a bit just for fun
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Pastywhyte]
#26859327 - 08/02/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I would try a completely new grain. That or look for a giant garbage can full of trich under the stairs.
Haha yea I've keep looking for the hidden trash can full of trich and haven't found it I've tried different grains over the past year. I've used conventional rye berries from a totally different source, I've used producer pride oats, and another brand of oats I forget the name now, and the organic rye berries I'm currently using. Same results, only a small portion of the tubs make it to the end of the second flush, many crap out before the first flush is over and some shortly after. The only other person I know that grows is using the same grains I currently am (organic rye) and he gets most tubs past the second flush before they contam, the only difference is that he jar pasteurizes his substrate with poo. He swears that he used to get contams all the time using just coir or CVG and when he switched to jar pastuerizing poo he became way more successful. Strange. I think it's a pain in the ass and haven't wanted to go down that road but I'm about to try some tubs with poo and see how they compare. My friend thinks these things vary by the region one lives in. That's why some are having easy success using some methods and others work their ass off very carefully and just keep having problems. I have no idea..
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 05:45 PM)
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859379 - 08/02/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here's the 5th transfer away from spores of TX. Looking nice so far, more rhizomorphic than the previous transfers.
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,809
Loc: Canada
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859460 - 08/02/20 06:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Try some grain that’s not oats or organic.
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Anastomosis
Stranger


Registered: 05/20/20
Posts: 227
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Anastomosis]
#26859509 - 08/02/20 06:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said: No the problem is not solved.
Quote:
Anastomosis said: If some tubs are good and some are not, the problem could be your technique. Some jars you do great. A few maybe you fuck up? If mold spores are getting in at g2g, they may not show their ugly face until after spawning.
And..
Quote:
Anastomosis said: 10 percent is a lot.
-------------------- "120mph with a trailer full of dogs and a truck full of drug addicts."
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Anastomosis]
#26859621 - 08/02/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anastomosis said:
Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said: No the problem is not solved.
Quote:
Anastomosis said: If some tubs are good and some are not, the problem could be your technique. Some jars you do great. A few maybe you fuck up? If mold spores are getting in at g2g, they may not show their ugly face until after spawning.
And..
Quote:
Anastomosis said: 10 percent is a lot.
I think I was over estimating the 10% thing. My grains look more like 1 or 2% burst.
 We'll see about the g2g thing soon, I'll test it. It's a good point but I forgot to mention, I forgot about it in general until you got me thinking about the g2g thing. About a year ago I did a whole run a2g, it was a pain in the ass. I didn't get any better or worse results. I didn't do it because I suspected g2g transfers of being the problem, back then I thought the culture was just expanding too far and getting tired so I went a2g to reduce potential senescence. I didn't realize it but that did sort of test my g2g technique by doing a whole run without it and getting similar poor results. Besides g2g with jars is pretty simple. I can't imagine how I'd keep screwing that up so consistently after all this time. I mean maybe but it doesn't seem to fit. Wipe down the master jar very well with alcohol. Unload all the receiving jars directly into the flowhood with foil on the tops. Carefully remove the lid making sure your fingers never cross the work areas. I flip the lid of the receiving jar upside down on top of another jar in front of the filter. Twist the master so grains fall into the receiving jar keeping only the opening of the master jar barely over the receiving jar and angled behind it so no contams from the body of the jar fall in. Then put the lid of the receiving jar back on being very careful with the placement of my fingers and repeat for all 8 or 10 receiving jars..
Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 08:24 PM)
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859802 - 08/02/20 09:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'll pay closer attention next time I do g2g. Maybe I am missing something there. Now I'm wondering if the receiver jar lid flipped upside down has any contams from around the ring blow onto the underside of the lid That would be fucked if flipping the lid and resting it has been causing problems, I've been doing that since the beginning. Is that normal procedure for folks doing g2g with jars? flipping the lid of the receiving jar and resting it on top of another jar in front of the hepa filter while you transfer grains into it?
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 09:51 PM)
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Anastomosis
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Registered: 05/20/20
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859811 - 08/02/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe pouring your master jar a little higher from your recieving jars would be beneficial because it would give the laminar flow a chance to blow a bad spore you missed on your master away? I keep the recieving jar lid in my hand and immediately put back on after pouring. Once completed with all jars, I then tighten all the lids
-------------------- "120mph with a trailer full of dogs and a truck full of drug addicts."
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Anastomosis]
#26859820 - 08/02/20 10:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's a good idea, I do keep the master jar a bit close to the receiving jar. I'll lift it higher when I do transfers, I'll also practice holding the receiving lid in my hand while I do the transfer with the other and putting the lid back on quickly. Do you line up all your jars across the face of the hepa filter or put them 2 or 3 deep on 1 side of the flowhood then rotate them between transfers like I do?
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Anastomosis
Stranger


Registered: 05/20/20
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859835 - 08/02/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I do 3 rows deep plus 1. 1 master to 10 receiving jars. I do the single jar first. Then the first full row (furthest from the filter) and continue forward, doing the row closest to the filter last. I hold the master in my right hand, so I work from right to left and only reach over jars after they are inoculated.
-------------------- "120mph with a trailer full of dogs and a truck full of drug addicts."
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Anastomosis]
#26859842 - 08/02/20 10:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Tweeq
Tweeq of Nature


Registered: 06/07/18
Posts: 2,043
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859929 - 08/03/20 12:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said:
Quote:
Tweeq said: @Sherlock: Yes Im using rye. It never clumps in the jars but I let it dry approx 8 hrs after boiling before I load them in the jars
Wow that's fasscinating. I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't need to be I wonder what causes me and so many others to have experienced clumping without sufficient rinsing, just not being dried enough?
That would be my best guess. Not dry enough.. From what I've gathered around the boards, rye can sometimes take up more moisture than is needed or what you should want.
Back when we let dry for only one or two hrs we had a lot of problems with bacteria, clumping, contams and so on. It has bettered a lot since we let the grain dry for 6 - 8 hrs.
However, by no means an expert over here this is what works for us
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Tweeq]
#26860432 - 08/03/20 10:05 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tweeq said:
Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said:
Quote:
Tweeq said: @Sherlock: Yes Im using rye. It never clumps in the jars but I let it dry approx 8 hrs after boiling before I load them in the jars
Wow that's fasscinating. I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't need to be I wonder what causes me and so many others to have experienced clumping without sufficient rinsing, just not being dried enough?
That would be my best guess. Not dry enough.. From what I've gathered around the boards, rye can sometimes take up more moisture than is needed or what you should want.
Back when we let dry for only one or two hrs we had a lot of problems with bacteria, clumping, contams and so on. It has bettered a lot since we let the grain dry for 6 - 8 hrs.
However, by no means an expert over here this is what works for us
Right on, good insights. Thanks. We dry for at least 4 hours sometimes 6 or so. We have the racks spread out with like 3 fans running so air is moving pretty fast. I found that the last time we pushed it and dried the grains for 8 or 10 hours with our setup the grains actually shrunk and were too dry, when I inoculated them the mycelium was moving super slow. The same thing happened in the past when I simply didn't fully gelatinize the grains when simmering and the myc had a hard time colonizing them except this time we did fully gelatinize them yet seeemed to overdry them. Funny though that even though they took over 3 weeks to colonize when we overdried them none of those bags showed any wetspot at all whereas I got used to seeing at least a spot of wetspot here and there in almost every bag. So I think there is a perfect equilibrium of being fully gelatinized and thoroughly dried without excessively drying and shriveling the grains leading to slow colonization. Grain prep more and more seems to be a science and an art and quite critical. How the hell people boil the shit out of grains with no soaking, dry them in colanders for an hour or 2 and have amazing runs defies all logic to me..
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/03/20 10:07 AM)
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26860469 - 08/03/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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A little pin porn
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Tweeq
Tweeq of Nature


Registered: 06/07/18
Posts: 2,043
Loc: Netherlands
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26860538 - 08/03/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I agree sherlock. The right grain prep seems critical for good results. No idea how some people manage by just hard boiling. Maybe they live in drier climates idk.
You'll find that magical equillibrium eventually for sure!
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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Tweeq]
#26875639 - 08/11/20 06:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here are the 2 plates that have sat for about two weeks at room temp after I did blank transfers into them and waved them around open in front of the hepa filter for a minute or two each. No signs of anything so my agar technique and flowhood seem to be good. The next time I make grains I'll transfer the agar from these plates into grain masters and let them sit at room temp for a few weeks to make sure there aren't hitchhiking contams that only grow on grains and that my a2g technique is good. After that I'll do g2g with those blank masters and make sure that technique is good too.

 I'm still seeing contams pop up in plenty of tubs before the first flush is finished, and the rest of the tubs contaminate midway thru the second flush. I just bought some millet so I can compare the performance of different grains on my next run.
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



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Posts: 606
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26875658 - 08/11/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The last plates I transferred into rye grains and posted pics of earlier in this thread are colonizing very slowly. It looks like healthy mycelium and I'm certain that I over dried the grains. After listening to the various suggestions on this thread I thought maybe I wasn't drying my grains enough but I think now that I was and my problem is elsewhere. Anastosmosis even said the grain jar I took pics of looked quite dry. This is what they look like on day twelve after breaking up the colonized grains and redistributing them I haven't seen growth this slow in a long time, since like a year ago when I over dried or underhydrated a batch of oats. These I'm certain I simmered until the center was fully gelatinized so they're too dry..
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26875669 - 08/11/20 06:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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All of my second flush contams always come up on stem butts I sliced off and let the stub stay in the sub. I used to twist and pull all the shrooms but at some point decided to cut them all off as close to the sub as I can to leave more hyphal knots for more fruits on the second flush. I'm wondering if this is a vector for contamination as I've read some experienced growers say that it is in the past, but then I have read some say otherwise in more recent times and that if you see contams pop up in stems or craters it is still due to the spawn you start with. I'm starting to think that isn't necessarily true. It seems like the stem butts become bacterial and become a breeding ground for contaminants. Anyone have experience with this?
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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MLPismyOPSEC
That One Ponyfucker


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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26875757 - 08/11/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've done about 100 tubs (~50 monos, ~40 shoeboxes), always cut the stipe, and never have contams because of it. I dump them after a third flush, but my first 30 monos and 20 SB's didn't contam at any point. I know it's not a lot of experience, but i feel pretty confident that the stumps don't cause contamination.
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