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maxmush
Always learning...
Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 440
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: MLPismyOPSEC]
#26854230 - 07/30/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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tagged
-------------------- Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: rickyswamps]
#26854301 - 07/30/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rickyswamps said: A sub making one or two flushes before contaming is normal. Thats considered success. Some people will say that they get 20 flushes with no contams, thats fantastic...but....IME, during the spring, summer, and fall, where I live, I get 2 flushes from very clean spawn. Then a contam comes in. This is normal. Also, I get far less contams in shoeboxes because I think the sub stays a little drier.
If you have a tub go bad before a pinset, then its to blame on your spawn and its most likely not grain prep. Bacteria is easy to spot. It gets wet and greasy looking. Hidden fungal or white mold contams can be trickier. If a plate is growing slower than than others...toss it. If it takes a lot longer for a jar or bag to colonize than your other ones...toss it.
Thanks for the feedback. I consider 2 flushes a success as well. I'd like to be more successful Yea I'm going to do a bunch of minis and see how they compare, I usually always make it 2 flushes with those guys. Maybe better air exchange, less mass, drier, not sure why exactly.. Pain in the ass multiplying the work but whatever it takes. Yea I never see wetspot on any a2g only here and there little bits after g2g. My plates and jars always colonize at pretty much exactly the same time, I'd throw stuff out too if it slowed down as there's no reason for it except hidden problems.
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Mycobro420]
#26854304 - 07/30/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycobro420 said: Have you ever took a agar plate open it for a minute infront of your flowhood.move it slowly all around the flowhood Then parafilm it. Then leave it at room temp to make sure your flowhood is blowing steril air.
Yes I've done that with plenty of plates as well as jars. I also flame sterilize the scalpel and wave it around in front of the hepa filter after it's cooled and do blank transfers to make sure my technique is good. Never seen one of them contam after sealing them up and keeping em at room temp for several weeks..
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Tweeq]
#26854311 - 07/30/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tweeq said: I've been reading this whole thread and while Im also no expert:
Grainprep: Ive stopped rinsing, never used gypsum, soak for 12 hrs, boil untill first hull bursts
Sterilisation: the general concensus seems to be that 90 minutes @ 15 psi is the way to go. I think you are way oversterilizing those grains.
The problem seems to be your grains. Too many broken hulls and over sterilized they are too easy to get invaded by other stuff is my 2 cts
About the rinsing, are you using rye? because any time I have under rinsed the rye berries they clump in the jars. Since experiencing that I have never even bothered to try not rinsing them. With oats and others rinsing may not be necessary but I'm not sure how one gets away with not rinsing rye and avoiding clumping unless your supplier has super clean rye berries.
You may be right about the sterilization times and burst grains. At some point I figured more was better with PC time and temp but that may not be true. I'm definitely scaling back from 2.5 hours for jars to 2 hours. And bags I was doing 3.5 hours so I'll scale that back to 3 hours. 1.5 hours feels a bit light on the PC time but maybe I'm wrong. Many experienced cultivators seem to be doing 2 hours for jars. Maybe I'll try a round at 1.5 hours and see how it compares. I think the longer soak for rye berries will def reduce the burst grains. You guys do make sure when simmering the grains that all of them have become fully gelatinized through the center right? My experience was that leaving a small bit of white ungelatinized material in the center of the grain produced hardly any burst grains but slower and less vibrant colonization...
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,808
Loc: Canada
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26854315 - 07/30/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said:
Quote:
El Chupacabra said: Maybe but idk. Coir is very contam resistant whether you sterilize or pasteurize or even just simply hydrate it. I've seen it done with plenty of success as long as moisture content is good. It is a super common thing to use in moist terrariums with shitty reptiles shitting all over it. If a tub contams then it almost MUST be bad spawn or maybe a foreign object in the coir IMO. What about your lids.. What kind of filters? Have you tried different types of lids and/or filters over the years?
I know tons of folks do that no problem but there are reports of coir that has small amounts of mold in it as a brick, like people have seen white on the edge of the brick. Seems possible being that it comes from a humid environment and travels so far, and has low quality control, etc.. I figure hydrating it, breaking up every little chunk, and then pasteurizing it removes the variable for now. And if there are seeds in it or something nutritious then pasteurizing that helps as well. When things go better I'll go back to the bucket tek.
My filter discs are synthetic filter discs from FP and I have new ones in my lids. I replaced all of them to eliminate that variable too. I stick with synthetic filter discs as they seem to be the best choice. I don't want any variables ya know..
If there are seeds in the coir, pasteurizing won’t help. At that point your only hope is that the colony can reach and take the seeds before molds do.
You already seem to know you need to break it all down to track the vector. Blank samples of every media run should be kept and checked. Deep clean the grow area and maybe even try a few things more forgiving like bulk bottles or bags. That can really help you spot the weak point.
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: MLPismyOPSEC]
#26854317 - 07/30/20 08:06 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
MLPismyOPSEC said: Have you tried different brands of coir? What brand do you use? It has to be coming from something that has been constant in your technique, which makes me think either grain or coir. You say you bombed your house to clean it, what exactly did you do?
I've tried 4 or 5 different brands of coir and got the same exact results. Can't be that although I know that has been a problem for others. I bought a small fogger and Decon 30 made by Benefect which is a botanical mold killer. It's the only plant based sanitizer that's been federally registered and approved for use in hospitals and restaurants. It's called Decon 30 because with 30 seconds of contact time it's been proven to kill/decontaminate 99.9% of bacteria and mold spores. A lot of mold remediation businesses have started using it because it doesn't cause cancer like pretty much any other chemical based fungicide. It's been lab tested and shown to be as effective as chemical agents. I unloaded 2 gallons of decon 30 across my whole house and garage and ran it through my grow room twice..
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (07/30/20 08:16 PM)
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Pastywhyte]
#26854330 - 07/30/20 08:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said:
Quote:
El Chupacabra said: Maybe but idk. Coir is very contam resistant whether you sterilize or pasteurize or even just simply hydrate it. I've seen it done with plenty of success as long as moisture content is good. It is a super common thing to use in moist terrariums with shitty reptiles shitting all over it. If a tub contams then it almost MUST be bad spawn or maybe a foreign object in the coir IMO. What about your lids.. What kind of filters? Have you tried different types of lids and/or filters over the years?
I know tons of folks do that no problem but there are reports of coir that has small amounts of mold in it as a brick, like people have seen white on the edge of the brick. Seems possible being that it comes from a humid environment and travels so far, and has low quality control, etc.. I figure hydrating it, breaking up every little chunk, and then pasteurizing it removes the variable for now. And if there are seeds in it or something nutritious then pasteurizing that helps as well. When things go better I'll go back to the bucket tek.
My filter discs are synthetic filter discs from FP and I have new ones in my lids. I replaced all of them to eliminate that variable too. I stick with synthetic filter discs as they seem to be the best choice. I don't want any variables ya know..
If there are seeds in the coir, pasteurizing won’t help. At that point your only hope is that the colony can reach and take the seeds before molds do.
You already seem to know you need to break it all down to track the vector. Blank samples of every media run should be kept and checked. Deep clean the grow area and maybe even try a few things more forgiving like bulk bottles or bags. That can really help you spot the weak point.
Good insight about seeds in coir not being helped by pasteurization. Makes sense. I'm going to leave some blank plates and jars tonight, I'll do blank transfers into them as well. I'm toward the end of the sterile work of this round so it'll be a few weeks before I can start properly logging and tracking plates to jars to tubs from start to finish and post it all here. I'll make blanks along with each of those other logged items and track and post them too. I'll also do bottles or bags to fruit directly out of and see how that compares. I'll stay on top of documenting everything. I have faith we'll get to the bottom of this. Thanks for tagging along guys. What a great community
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26854335 - 07/30/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I gotta read up on mudafuka's bottle tek and do a round of those. That'll be fun
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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jackrabbitcytoplas
Stranger

Registered: 01/30/20
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26854603 - 07/30/20 11:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Another left field idea here. If you've got someone who knows you're growing and that you trust, how about spawning in their house? Only bring in your colonized grain, prep brand new coir there and get a new mono. Might be more trouble then it's worth.
As for bottles, the thread is long and the first post isn't updated. So if you're wondering about the recipe:
Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've gotten to point where all I use is WBS coir and Verm. I don't actually measire anything but I use roughly half grain 40 percent coir and 10 percent verm.
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Tweeq
Tweeq of Nature


Registered: 06/07/18
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: jackrabbitcytoplas]
#26854725 - 07/31/20 12:52 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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@Sherlock: Yes Im using rye. It never clumps in the jars but I let it dry approx 8 hrs after boiling before I load them in the jars
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: jackrabbitcytoplas]
#26858593 - 08/02/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jackrabbitcytoplas said: Another left field idea here. If you've got someone who knows you're growing and that you trust, how about spawning in their house? Only bring in your colonized grain, prep brand new coir there and get a new mono. Might be more trouble then it's worth.
As for bottles, the thread is long and the first post isn't updated. So if you're wondering about the recipe:
Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've gotten to point where all I use is WBS coir and Verm. I don't actually measire anything but I use roughly half grain 40 percent coir and 10 percent verm.
Thanks for tip about MudaFuka's updated recipe, that's very helpful. About a year and a half ago I did exactly that, I made a ton of spawn at my house and brought it to a buddy's house after it had fully colonized. He had never grown before so he bought tubs and all the substrate and loaded them and fruited them at his place and no bullshit 95% of the tubs made it 3 or 4 flushes, he only lost 1 out of a few dozen. And yet at the same time at my place with the same variety I lost about half of everything I did. Which is one of the reasons for a while I've been feeling that there is a very high sporeload in my home of some pathogenic contaminant that is effecting my results. I should of shared that earlier. Good question/suggestion. I should try that again and just spawn a few tubs at a friends house.
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
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Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Tweeq]
#26858595 - 08/02/20 10:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tweeq said: @Sherlock: Yes Im using rye. It never clumps in the jars but I let it dry approx 8 hrs after boiling before I load them in the jars
Wow that's fasscinating. I'll give it a shot. If it doesn't need to be I wonder what causes me and so many others to have experienced clumping without sufficient rinsing, just not being dried enough?
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 10:48 AM)
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26858884 - 08/02/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I did some tests and took some pics of a few things to track for now until I get clones from this round and start some new stuff to follow from start to finish. I plan on doing more comprehensive tests next run when I take clones. They look a lot cleaner and simpler on agar and behave more consistently so I'd rather properly test those than multispore. But for now you can see how my spawn and tubs look while they're colonizing and see how these tubs fruit.
These 2 plates are the 4th transfer from spores. The 2 halves labeled Y and Z I cut up and dropped into jars of rye. The other 2 halves already looked a little suspect due to the uncolonized areas so I'm tracking Y and Z since they look clean on agar. I divided up Y between 4 jars and Z between 4 jars. I normally don't spread a plate this far in a2g but due to some traveling coming up I don't have time to do a2g>g2g and finish hopefully 2 flushes after spawning. I'm making 2 minis out of Z and 2 minis out of Y, 2 jars of spawn per mini. The minis are a 30 quart size.
Here are the plates before they were opened. The agar recipe is 7.5 grams malt extract, 10 grams agar, 500mL of distilled water. Vented the PC for 20 minutes and cooked for 35 minutes at about 16 or 17psi. When I make agar I wrap the plates in cling wrap and store them for weeks before use and never see any of them contam after pouring.

 Here are the jars a day after they were inoculated. These are organic rye berries soaked for 8 hours, simmered, then dried on a screen with fans blowing over it for several hours before loading into jars. They were vented for 20 mins then cooked for 2 hours at 16 to 17 psi.



-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 01:48 PM)
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jackrabbitcytoplas
Stranger

Registered: 01/30/20
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26858922 - 08/02/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sherlock Shrooms said:
Quote:
jackrabbitcytoplas said: Another left field idea here. If you've got someone who knows you're growing and that you trust, how about spawning in their house? Only bring in your colonized grain, prep brand new coir there and get a new mono. Might be more trouble then it's worth.
As for bottles, the thread is long and the first post isn't updated. So if you're wondering about the recipe:
Quote:
MudaFuka said: I've gotten to point where all I use is WBS coir and Verm. I don't actually measire anything but I use roughly half grain 40 percent coir and 10 percent verm.
Thanks for tip about MudaFuka's updated recipe, that's very helpful. About a year and a half ago I did exactly that, I made a ton of spawn at my house and brought it to a buddy's house after it had fully colonized. He had never grown before so he bought tubs and all the substrate and loaded them and fruited them at his place and no bullshit 95% of the tubs made it 3 or 4 flushes, he only lost 1 out of a few dozen. And yet at the same time at my place with the same variety I lost about half of everything I did. Which is one of the reasons for a while I've been feeling that there is a very high sporeload in my home of some pathogenic contaminant that is effecting my results. I should of shared that earlier. Good question/suggestion. I should try that again and just spawn a few tubs at a friends house.
Man, I'm stumped for ideas. Definitely looking forward to following along and seeing what's what.
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
Loc: Under the Sun
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: jackrabbitcytoplas]
#26858943 - 08/02/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I stopped using liners a while ago and I found that the sub reabsorbing all the water that runs down the sides helps sustain the first flush, and it makes bottom watering between rounds easier. I've read some say that water pooling and saturating the sides where it runs down onto the sub becomes a vector for contamination, however I don't see contams in those saturated areas any more often then I see them anywhere else. Anyone have thoughts on liner vs no liner in tubs?
You can see where the water has run down onto the sub and saturated it a bit here
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



Registered: 06/25/19
Posts: 606
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26858985 - 08/02/20 01:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sandman, I raised the rack up in my flowhood. Do you think this is high enough?
 I'm also pouring an epoxy glaze surface for the bottom, like bar top stuff, and using some high gloss polyurethane on the interior sides and top. There's already a clear coat on all the inner surfaces but I think this will create a smoother, easier to clean, more resistant finish all around.
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 01:53 PM)
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Crackatoa
Stranger in a strange land



Registered: 03/31/19
Posts: 5,399
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859068 - 08/02/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think it looks better
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Crackatoa]
#26859121 - 08/02/20 03:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cool, thanks. It's too late to of followed these minis from start to finish but I have a new way of loading them. I like water running down the sides into the sub so I don't use a full liner. But I don't want to damage shrooms trying to get the sub out while it's fruiting without a liner, so I cut a strip of plastic a little skinnier than the width of the sub and it just runs across the bottom of the tub and comes up an inch or so on both short sides of the tub as little handles to lift the sub out for easy harvesting. With this type of liner I imagine most of the water will still reabsorb into the substrate.
I break up the spawn and mix it thoroughly with the sub in a separate clean mini. Then I scoop the sub and pour it into the other clean mini with the cleaned liner while holding the plastic up. Once I get all the sub into the mini with the liner I level it out and very slightly tamp it to level out the surface. When I say tamp I'm not really packing it down just very lightly tapping the top surface to level it out. Then I case/frost it with half a quart of CVG and level that out. I trim the plastic handles so only they stick out an inch or so, then lightly mist the sub surface and side walls and close it up for colonization. Don't mind my gloves and plastic sleeves in the picture, I'm very careful these days since I don't know what the hell is causing all of my problems. I'll see how this little liner thing works out, it'd make my life easier to easily lift fruiting subs out to harvest.





-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

Edited by Sherlock Shrooms (08/02/20 03:14 PM)
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polaritymind
relaxed attention


Registered: 10/10/16
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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: Sherlock Shrooms]
#26859187 - 08/02/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok didnt wanna read the whole thread, is the problem solved? Some ideas are how is your bulk substrate prepared, some coir comes with added trichoderma spores, and I even had trouble just bucket pasteurizing dowels. But tbh with those things, I can hardly imagine that sterilzing hurts since I dont really think there are that many beneficialy bacteria etc that could get killed off there, as with compost. BUsted HEPA is another good idea, but then why do you have success with your plates, doesnt make sense, what is your success rate there? Otherwise try a SAB just for the experiment, i see how the airflow, if it *is* busted could introduce more contams but yeah again, doesnt add up.
-------------------- "to affirm life is to also affirm death" -Albert hofmann
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Sherlock Shrooms
Neophyte



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Re: Please help me get this right, contamination blues.. [Re: polaritymind] 1
#26859302 - 08/02/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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No the problem is not solved. I don't wish to rehash all that we've gone over in this thread so read up if you're interested in all that we've covered, but yea my plates are consistently fine. 0 out of the past 500 have contaminated. I haven't seen a visible contam in a plate or jar aside from a small bit of wetspot occasionally after g2g in over a year..
-------------------- "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned, Nor shall the flame scorch you."

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