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Offlineendtimes
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When it comes to defending yourself
    #26852365 - 07/29/20 05:51 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago)

I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852387 - 07/29/20 06:08 PM (5 days, 3 hours ago)



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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26852403 - 07/29/20 06:20 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

I’m essentially cat food if I ever go to the mountains. Not friskies though, the good stuff


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26852413 - 07/29/20 06:25 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)



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Onlinefeevers
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26852415 - 07/29/20 06:26 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

The trick is to attack everyone first and neutralize and then you'll never have to defend yourself


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Registered: 01/26/19
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26852416 - 07/29/20 06:26 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

I would not have guilt over defending myself, on the contrary, I'd have a good story to tell, and maybe said story would deter more bad people from harming others, word would spread that people know how to defend themselves, so don't be mean, and the world would become a better, nicer place! :wink:


--------------------
GordoTEK


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Invisiblevinsue
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 2
    #26852419 - 07/29/20 06:28 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Well, I better rate ya before Paw does.:shrug:
:smilingpuppy: . . . :peace:


--------------------

"All mushrooms are edible; but some only once." Croatian proverb. BTW ...
  Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... :taser:  ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) .  :mod: ... :peace:


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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26852420 - 07/29/20 06:28 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

It's a bit weird that these are your first two posts, but okay. How did you find the shroomery anyway? Do any psychedelics lately?


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #26852423 - 07/29/20 06:30 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

I get puppet vibes...


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26852428 - 07/29/20 06:30 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Yeah, me too...


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Invisiblevinsue
Grand Old Fart
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go] * 1
    #26852431 - 07/29/20 06:33 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Paw rates all the puppets.:smirk:
:voila: . . . :peace:


--------------------

"All mushrooms are edible; but some only once." Croatian proverb. BTW ...
  Have You Rated Ythans Mom Yet ?? ... :taser:  ... HERE'S HOW ... (be nice) .  :mod: ... :peace:


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: nooneman]
    #26852432 - 07/29/20 06:33 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

I don’t use forums often and I figured this would be the best place to start.

EDIT: what’s paw?

EDIT #2: what brought me here was a video I saw with Terrance McKenna and after looking for him on the internet I ended up here


Edited by endtimes (07/29/20 06:38 PM)


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Onlinefeevers
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852451 - 07/29/20 06:45 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Terence is not here unfortunately :sad:


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852453 - 07/29/20 06:46 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Paw runs a cat shelter in Odessa TX.  He votes Trump, and works in the spice industry.  He also lets his stepdaughters boyfriend stay over for days at a time, put his feet on the table, and raid the fridge.


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InvisiblePatrickKn
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/10/11
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26852461 - 07/29/20 06:54 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

#PawFullAdminRights2021


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26852463 - 07/29/20 06:55 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Well the video I saw with his voice was interesting


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 3
    #26852469 - 07/29/20 06:59 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

You're a puppet 100%.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26852483 - 07/29/20 07:07 PM (5 days, 2 hours ago)

Guess there's nothing I can say to say I'm not.


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InvisibleAmanita86
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 3
    #26852541 - 07/29/20 07:43 PM (5 days, 1 hour ago)

I’ll make this easier on you...:hatsoff:

What did your old account used to be named!:crankey:



--------------------
:mushroom2:Orange clock, pencil:bouncysmoke:
"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
Gam zeh ya’avor...:sunny:


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26852608 - 07/29/20 08:37 PM (5 days, 35 minutes ago)

Hm, you show up the same day I get banned from one of the forums here.

Very suspicious.

Are you my puppet?


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi]
    #26852617 - 07/29/20 08:43 PM (5 days, 29 minutes ago)

I don't think I'd be very comfortable with someone having their arm that far inside me.


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852620 - 07/29/20 08:46 PM (5 days, 26 minutes ago)

Better my arm than my penis... :freewilly:


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Invisiblelarry.fisherman
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852668 - 07/29/20 09:23 PM (4 days, 23 hours ago)

It is possible to defend oneself without intentional or excessive force. It's by learning how to defend yourself that you grant yourself the freedom of restraint. But I'm talking about jiu jitsu, wrestling ect. Ever watched an MMA match and thought, "Nothing is happening." Those are the skills you're looking for.


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852676 - 07/29/20 09:30 PM (4 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I don't think I'd be very comfortable with someone having their arm that far inside me.





You've been reported.
:smilingpuppy:


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #26852763 - 07/29/20 10:52 PM (4 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
It is possible to defend oneself without intentional or excessive force. It's by learning how to defend yourself that you grant yourself the freedom of restraint. But I'm talking about jiu jitsu, wrestling ect. Ever watched an MMA match and thought, "Nothing is happening." Those are the skills you're looking for.




I mostly just pray I don't get put into a situation where I'll have to test it. My love of animals may get me killed in the wild but I'm hoping to talk down another person.

I used to be for violence. Then I held a knife, then a gun, and then fired a gun. Now I'm given pause when choosing violence knowing what such things can do and what they feel like. A gun is heavy in my hands and that force, I just can't imagine doing that to someone else.


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OnlineIce9
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852827 - 07/29/20 11:57 PM (4 days, 21 hours ago)

If you have to defend yourself akido and hapkido are great, especially for smaller people as they don't rely on mass or strength.  That being said, there is a huge difference between put on the ground, and in Akido's place being thrown at the ground. It hurts, a lot.


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Invisiblepur3bind
Not all who wander are frost-y
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26852895 - 07/30/20 01:24 AM (4 days, 19 hours ago)

In my heart of hearts I've always never like the psychopath type that target you if ypur not belonging to a friend group. I know some that would want me to get dead, but my reaction would probably be...

If self defense doesn't work to put them in their place, just run if they got a weapon, or just kind of relaxingly fight back. If someone takes this body, it is what it is. I hope some people  (younger people as in my generation) can change and make something better from the cards they were dealt. But thats all I can do is wish for that,


--------------------
"There are times— and this would be a great study for somebody to do—there have been periods in English when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. There are colors that don't exist anymore because the words have been lost." — Terence McKenna (The Archaic Revival: 1991)


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: pur3bind]
    #26852997 - 07/30/20 05:54 AM (4 days, 15 hours ago)

I know it’s wishful to hope that I’ll talk someone down, but there are people out there that you can’t. People who for whatever reason want to hurt you just for existing even though you aren’t hurting anyone. I’m lucky to never encounter such people.

But I do like living though, I’m not giving that up just because someone doesn’t like something about me. I still wonder what I would do if the time came for action.


Edited by endtimes (07/30/20 05:59 AM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853007 - 07/30/20 06:19 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.





I'll deal with the guilt after I stomp him into the cracks of the pavement.

I have struggled too hard throughout my life to let some asshole take it away.

I'm 375 lbs, I'm not going to run away.




Here's 13 martial arts "Masters" getting destroyed by fighters taking them up on their bluff.



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Invisiblepsi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853025 - 07/30/20 06:40 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

There was a guy here called WakeboarderB who killed a guy in self defense and was pretty messed up about it. I wonder if he may have ended up committing suicide, since he mentioned it in some of his last posts here. Hopefully not.


--------------------
BAN OP 2020


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi]
    #26853033 - 07/30/20 06:46 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

psi said:
There was a guy here called WakeboarderB who killed a guy in self defense





Oh wow he did?

Most people are toast if they kill someone or someone gets killed in close proximity.

Still, I'd prefer the one getting killed to be my attacker, not me.

Law of the jungle, dont provoke 375lbs gorilla.


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853037 - 07/30/20 06:50 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

With grappling and jiu jitsu you can control a situation without "hurting" someone.


--------------------
"That you are here—that life exists, and identity;
That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
:acidfire::tmckenna:


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853042 - 07/30/20 06:52 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)



--------------------
BAN OP 2020


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Offlinedeucedbi9
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853045 - 07/30/20 06:55 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.





I'll deal with the guilt after I stomp him into the cracks of the pavement.

I have struggled too hard throughout my life to let some asshole take it away.

I'm 375 lbs, I'm not going to run away.

Here's 13 martial arts "Masters" getting destroyed by fighters taking them up on their bluff.






Like the televangelists of the fighting world.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853059 - 07/30/20 07:05 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

I wish televagelists would be pitted against Muay Thai and MMA champions :evil:


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853066 - 07/30/20 07:09 AM (4 days, 14 hours ago)

Check out "Glory Sports Ministry" in Brazil. They teach MMA as an outreach program.

Translation: Some preachers can whip your ass


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Offlinedeucedbi9
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi]
    #26853075 - 07/30/20 07:15 AM (4 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
Check out "Glory Sports Ministry" in Brazil. They teach MMA as an outreach program.

Translation: Some preachers can whip your ass




Especially when wading kneedeep in bullshit, eh.


--------------------
whether low pressure sucks or high pressure blows...
it's a bugger to cycle in.

even though I'm feeling good
Something tells me I'd better activate my prayer capsule


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853199 - 07/30/20 09:37 AM (4 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I wish televagelists would be pitted against Muay Thai and MMA champions :evil:



Most of those masters are pomp and circumstance, even Bruce lee saw they were not good in a real fight.

That said I’m afraid I don’t share your sentiment about my attacker


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853349 - 07/30/20 11:10 AM (4 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:

That said I’m afraid I don’t share your sentiment about my attacker





I have been victimized a whole lot in my life, and I mean a WHOLE LOT, and I always let them do that to me, nonviolently, peacefully, and they took that as an invitation to use me as a doormat.

If someone is intoxicated and throws the odd punch at me, I'll probably shove them on their ass and walk away, not even pressing charges.

But if someone is deliberately out to harm me physically or gratuitously attacks the defenseless around me, hell yes i'll fight and for the purpose of physical incapacitation.

I'm not a track athlete, but I dont have to make a run for it if my opponent can no longer walk.

I'm a good guy who helps a lot of people left and right throughout life. That is worth fighting for and if absolutely necessary, worth killing for.

I'll write my book in prison if that's what it takes.

I love the nonviolence principle, but in some cases, it doesn't apply.

I'm in full favor of you freedom not to defend yourself and I hope you'll excuse me if I break a bar stool over their head in defense of you :grin:


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #26853422 - 07/30/20 12:07 PM (4 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
It is possible to defend oneself without intentional or excessive force.





No doubt, man. When I was a social worker, I had to learn how to restrain a 300 pound man without doing any long-lasting damage, and I only weigh about 130. I believe there is almost always a non-lethal (dare I even say non-violent) solution to any given problem.

Besides, when it comes to owning a gun, a knife, or any kind of lethal weapon, I don't know how much safer that's actually going to make me anyway. I could always find myself up against a better marksman, or a guy who brought a gun to a knife fight, or a guy who attacks with a group, or a guy who has the element of surprise. Sure, a gun might save my life in some situations, but for every situation I can imagine where a gun saves my life, I can imagine another one where it doesn't. In the end, I'd rather just not own one because it seems like a lot of additional responsibility that I don't need to shoulder. This is life, man. It's a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate. Ain't nobody getting outta this shit alive.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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Invisiblepur3bind
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26853430 - 07/30/20 12:15 PM (4 days, 8 hours ago)

Like I understand being a cop is an excessively difficult job to do. No doubt about that. But every situation has it's focal point. And everyone who is responsible is responsible, peroid. But, people that want to hurt or harm you because they've been caught in a cycle in life for so long that they easily target you because your surreal to their reality, I feel bad for people in that circumstance. But thats it. Its a jealousy thing and it stems from (possibly) ancient patterns of mind.


--------------------
"There are times— and this would be a great study for somebody to do—there have been periods in English when there were emotions that don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. There are colors that don't exist anymore because the words have been lost." — Terence McKenna (The Archaic Revival: 1991)


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26853486 - 07/30/20 12:47 PM (4 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
It is possible to defend oneself without intentional or excessive force.





No doubt, man. When I was a social worker, I had to learn how to restrain a 300 pound man without doing any long-lasting damage, and I only weigh about 130. I believe there is almost always a non-lethal (dare I even say non-violent) solution to any given problem.

Besides, when it comes to owning a gun, a knife, or any kind of lethal weapon, I don't know how much safer that's actually going to make me anyway. I could always find myself up against a better marksman, or a guy who brought a gun to a knife fight, or a guy who attacks with a group, or a guy who has the element of surprise. Sure, a gun might save my life in some situations, but for every situation I can imagine where a gun saves my life, I can imagine another one where it doesn't. In the end, I'd rather just not own one because it seems like a lot of additional responsibility that I don't need to shoulder. This is life, man. It's a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate. Ain't nobody getting outta this shit alive.




I wouldn't call life a disease per se, that seems a little strong. But I can somewhat agree with that sentiment about responsibility. Having fired one I don't see myself owning one in the future.

Though I am surprised by some responses on a psychedelic forum, I thought most people on here would be against violence like me.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853495 - 07/30/20 12:49 PM (4 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.



I doubt this is the way you would react in actual life threatening danger, but maybe it is. That is a very sad place to be for yourself though.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853522 - 07/30/20 12:58 PM (4 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Though I am surprised by some responses on a psychedelic forum, I thought most people on here would be against violence like me.




Doesn't really work like that, psychedelics don't give everyone who takes them a common belief system. The realizations you come to while tripping are not contained in the drug, they come from within.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853622 - 07/30/20 01:43 PM (4 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I wouldn't call life a disease per se, that seems a little strong.




Yeah, don't worry, that was purely a joke. My point was just that nobody's getting out of this thing, whatever it is, alive.

Quote:

endtimes said:
But I can somewhat agree with that sentiment about responsibility. Having fired one I don't see myself owning one in the future.




I've also fired one before, and I just don't need to own one. I've had a lot of people personally advise me to get a gun for self defense, and I've earnestly listened to their arguments (always try to keep an open mind). What it always seems to boil down to is the idea that there is violence in the world, whether we like it or not (I agree, though I don't necessarily think that has to be the case), and that if someone is going to attack me and kill me or someone I care about, I might as well put up a fight. That sentiment doesn't resonate with me at all. I'll let others do the fighting, if that's what they're gonna do. Some people might call me a pussy, which I would never take personally - anyone who calls me weak or unmanly because I don't want to fight anyone is clearly projecting their own insecurity about masculinity onto me.

I'm kinda rambling now, but the most important point I'm trying to get across is that I don't need a gun to make me feel secure. I already accept that death will come one way or another (indeed, death might be one of the only things we can be sure of in life), and I just don't want to bring another gun owner into the world, if I can avoid it. I'd rather plant a garden or something, or cultivate mushrooms :mushroom2: Seems like a much more fulfilling use of my resources.

Quote:

endtimes said:
Though I am surprised by some responses on a psychedelic forum, I thought most people on here would be against violence like me.



When I started taking psychedelics, I started to feel more connected to the ecosystem of the earth, which made me care more about climate change and human impact on the environment. I also have had several ego-dissolving experiences, where the boundaries between myself and others seemed to dissolve. Some experiences I've had have underlined the fact that we all share common ancestors and that we're all made of the same chemicals found all over the universe. These experiences increased my compassion for other people, making me think more about the consequences of my actions (it also shifted my political views), and it made me more aware of social justice issues (I know that word can be kind of cringe these days, but I don't know how else to put it). Racism, sexism, xenophobia: these issues suddenly became more important to me because I wanted to be a more compassionate person.

For a while, I assumed that everyone had this sort of reaction to psychedelics, but that was a naïve assumption to make. All sorts of people take psychedelics, and the experiences they produce will vary widely from person to person. Indeed, you will find forum members from all corners of the political spectrum. You will also find anti-semites and racists - sadly, you can find people like that pretty much everywhere on the Internet.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26853632 - 07/30/20 01:48 PM (4 days, 7 hours ago)

Well at the beginning I would have gone along with that, having no problem meeting violence on those who would harm me.

But as I read more and got older that didn't seem simple. From Einstein to Buddha I began to question violence and self defense. Buddhism has a rather extreme view on it, or a least the stance I saw where it is recommended you die rather than harm someone to defend a self that doesn't exist. Other stances seem to suggest not starting anything or if it does start then to incapacitate only.

But knowing what pain feels like and thinking about inflicting that to other people, I don't know man it just feels wrong. I play violent video games but I know the enemies I face are digital, it's not the same with real people. Hearing someone scream from pain in a game gives me some pause, so I can think what it might be with another person who exists and feels pain.

I get where you guys are coming from, truly. I just feel like I don't have it in me to harm another person for real. Yes that includes the racist and homophobic idiots out there.

EDIT: Didn't see the second post. Personally I felt connected to the planet growing up. Studying the Food Web as a kid and watching tons of nature documentaries. Plus some of the shows growing up tended to advocate violence as a last resort rather than first one like Avatar the Last Airbender and many others. Being exposed to Buddhism really opened my thoughts about the lives of others and other animals as well, though sometimes I wonder if I am projecting human feelings onto animals. But that's when I started to catch bugs in my jar instead of outright zapping them. It was when I was a kid that I realized that states and countries are just lines on a map and tried to tell everyone else that but got shot down. Soon I began to guard my heart as I saw how few people seemed to care about things around them and instead get wrapped up in divisions. I found it harder to reason with people into a middle ground. It honestly hurts to live in our current world and sometimes I wish I could be a psychopath and just not have empathy rather than this slightly over active one.


Edited by endtimes (07/30/20 01:55 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853689 - 07/30/20 02:13 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

What about defending another person unable to defend themselves?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi]
    #26853764 - 07/30/20 02:32 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

I don’t have an answer for that if I’m honest, I’m not some hero of justice


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853775 - 07/30/20 02:36 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

Let's say it was your significant other or child, hypothetically.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi]
    #26853803 - 07/30/20 02:54 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853808 - 07/30/20 02:59 PM (4 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.





I'll deal with the guilt after I stomp him into the cracks of the pavement.

I have struggled too hard throughout my life to let some asshole take it away.

I'm 375 lbs, I'm not going to run away.




Here's 13 martial arts "Masters" getting destroyed by fighters taking them up on their bluff.





I wish I could plus million this post. I have one fucking goal(to be happy with the one person I love), and I have been shit on too much to let someone kill me before I reach my goal. No, I doubt I would even feel any guilt in that scenereo at all.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26853835 - 07/30/20 03:16 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago)

I think the moment someone glasses you in a pub and starts punching you that you disconnect from Einstein and the Buddha and that your inner ape would take over from that.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853845 - 07/30/20 03:21 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago)

Then I would say you severely underestimate me. I’ve been slapped, punched, and called everything in the book. I still don’t meet out judgment in return. I have a policy that revenge is wasted effort as it won’t make you feel better


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853876 - 07/30/20 03:34 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853895 - 07/30/20 03:45 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago)

Alright, I'll bite.

I'm a big believer in nonviolence, and I believe in not using violence even in self defense, and I don't want to argue against nonviolence. Especially during protests, it's totally backwards to use violence to defend yourself against violence during a protest. The whole point of a protest is to have people commit violence against you and to respond to that violence nonviolently. So if you respond to violence during a protest using violence, you undermine the whole point and message of the protest.

MLK Jr at one time owned a gun, and when he converted to nonviolence, he got rid of it. He was determined not to use violence even in self defense even outside of protests. I admire that a lot, and I wish that I was strong enough to go that route myself. Sometimes I think I am strong enough to be able to do that.

But other times I'm weak, and I think "I don't want some crazy extremist asshole taking me out." Lately, I've even been thinking about buying a S&W 686 to carry around for self defense. This is gonna sound crazy, but one thing that really influences me is Russia killing people in other countries. If they tried that with me (not that they ever would, but still), I'd like to be able to respond to the attacker with a 686.

But make no mistakes, this is weakness on my part. I'd like to be able to follow the philosophy of nonviolence all the way down the wire like MLK Jr did, but I'm just don't think I'm strong enough to do that. And it's shameful to admit that, but there it is.

Well, so far I don't own any guns, but I've been thinking about it a lot lately: a shotgun for the home, a revolver for going out, and a rifle for hiking. We'll see if I can resist the temptation or not. Again, I'd like to be able to stick to nonviolence, but I just don't know if I'm strong enough to do that.

Anyway, I admire nonviolence a lot, and I really don't want to argue against it. I think it is morally superior to violence even in self defense. Me being tempted by violence is weakness on my part.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: deucedbi9]
    #26853918 - 07/30/20 03:57 PM (4 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

deucedbi9 said:

Especially when wading kneedeep in bullshit, eh.




I get that you're just trying to make it clear that you have no respect for people who you disagree with, but you could have said it like I just did, and looked articulate, instead of just juvenile and bitter... but you know, talking about God on this site usually doesn't elicit this type of response so I'm really shocked, and may never pray again :rolleyes:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26853944 - 07/30/20 04:12 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.




I see the attackers and supposed "enemies" as people too, no less worthy of life than any other human. I've had partners before in case you are wondering, but my stance still stands.

Also it's a little harsh to say someone is a nihilist or has no compass just because they don't weigh one life over another.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853950 - 07/30/20 04:17 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

It sounds like you've given up on life...


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853951 - 07/30/20 04:17 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

I don't disagree with your position, but personally, I have no problem saying my life is worth more than someone who is trying to take mine. I also think about the fact that I only plan to kill an attacker, while an attacker that kills me may kill again and again. I feel a moral obligation to protect more than just myself and my family, so if someone appears to be trying to kill me, I would use an amount of force the attack necessitated to defend myself.

If I didn't start it, I'm not responsible for the outcome.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853976 - 07/30/20 04:34 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.





I hope I don't have to face that choice either. But I would not rule out potentially lethal action if all other alternatives are exhausted in stopping someone from committing a sufficiently reprehensible act (murder, rape, maiming etc). I don't take the prospect lightly though. I once saw someone shot a short distance away from me, and that will be with me for life.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26853978 - 07/30/20 04:38 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

Not at all. I just don't feel it's my place to judge who gets to live or die.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853985 - 07/30/20 04:43 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.




I see the attackers and supposed "enemies" as people too, no less worthy of life than any other human. I've had partners before in case you are wondering, but my stance still stands.

Also it's a little harsh to say someone is a nihilist or has no compass just because they don't weigh one life over another.



Well maybe it is that you aren't able to defend your values for some reason then. So if you value your partner or your child for example, or yourself, then you would defend from an attacker. My point is that what is valuable to a person is shown through action. So if your child's life was no more valuable than that of an evil person willing to harm then you would do nothing. Hence why I thought you might be one because nothing matters.
The example of a loved one is a good way to examine this but I would say that the way you value yourself and your values (non violence for example) can be extended to how you value others. Ie. You treat others as you wish you were treated. But the love for others can be stronger than for oneself. So if you would not defend a person you love then God help you.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853991 - 07/30/20 04:45 PM (4 days, 4 hours ago)

Jst poke em in the eyes then kick em in the dick


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26854044 - 07/30/20 05:16 PM (4 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.




I see the attackers and supposed "enemies" as people too, no less worthy of life than any other human. I've had partners before in case you are wondering, but my stance still stands.

Also it's a little harsh to say someone is a nihilist or has no compass just because they don't weigh one life over another.



Well maybe it is that you aren't able to defend your values for some reason then. So if you value your partner or your child for example, or yourself, then you would defend from an attacker. My point is that what is valuable to a person is shown through action. So if your child's life was no more valuable than that of an evil person willing to harm then you would do nothing. Hence why I thought you might be one because nothing matters.
The example of a loved one is a good way to examine this but I would say that the way you value yourself and your values (non violence for example) can be extended to how you value others. Ie. You treat others as you wish you were treated. But the love for others can be stronger than for oneself. So if you would not defend a person you love then God help you.




Its that I believe that all people have equal value, and that I know just how awry such a sentiment of protecting what you deem good can go. Even your very words, evil. To me evil is something on television that makes people feel better when it goes away. But in life evil is more like someone who doesn't see things your way or lives as you do, and History can attest to such.

I can defend my values, in a sense. But my values are a little different. It's like that saying "all lives matter", only this time it's not an ill conceived rebuttal to a serious social issue.

I do treat others as I wish to, by not inflicting pain or death upon them.

EDIT: I'd like to add that Buddhism influenced this a lot and made me try to aspire to equanimity as well as detachment. I don't feel it right to judge someone worthy of death or harm.


Edited by endtimes (07/30/20 05:32 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854128 - 07/30/20 06:00 PM (4 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Not at all. I just don't feel it's my place to judge who gets to live or die.




You'd get up on the roof during a rainstorm to plug the leaks but won't fight to protect the lives of your wife, kid and yourself?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26854138 - 07/30/20 06:10 PM (4 days, 3 hours ago)

I wouldn’t have a wife and kid, not my thing


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854200 - 07/30/20 06:49 PM (4 days, 2 hours ago)

I dont judge but good thing there are people like me and asante and hopefully, if you are ever in such a situation, someone like us will be around to kill/harm for you :shrug:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854261 - 07/30/20 07:25 PM (4 days, 1 hour ago)

You guys have some convincing arguments. You're talking me into buying some guns. I'm especially swayed by the argument that someone who tries to kill me may try to kill again, that's a damn good argument.

I'm just having trouble deciding what revolver I want to get, the 686, 629, or 642. Decisions decisions.


Edited by nooneman (07/30/20 07:27 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26854263 - 07/30/20 07:27 PM (4 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
I get puppet vibes...



:highfive:


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854295 - 07/30/20 07:47 PM (4 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
I dont judge but good thing there are people like me and asante and hopefully, if you are ever in such a situation, someone like us will be around to kill/harm for you :shrug:




For me I would not consider that a good thing, more just a way for violence to be justified and therefor continuing.

But then I have the issue of allowing those who would kill and do so again to harm such people who won't return with force and by that way such acts will continue.

I find myself between a rock and a hard place at that point then. Damned if you do and don't and all that.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854326 - 07/30/20 08:11 PM (4 days, 1 hour ago)

It's not continuing violence. If it really is a matter of life and death then it is no longer a choice. It is an obligation.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854372 - 07/30/20 08:43 PM (4 days, 28 minutes ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
It's not continuing violence. If it really is a matter of life and death then it is no longer a choice. It is an obligation.



Explain.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854421 - 07/30/20 09:15 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

Also I'd like to make an addendum to my last post.

The only creature on this planet that I would defend fiercely is my little Dachshund Red. If someone tried to meet him with harm I would definitely retaliate, with blood if I must.

So I guess my stance is not entirely unbreakable, my heart is not stone.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854427 - 07/30/20 09:17 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

Modern society is not very accommodating to self defense. People who take the initiative to learn the arts of unarmed combat are unfairly held to an unrealistic standard of restraint.

It's best to just avoid dangerous situations as much as possible.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: yeah] * 1
    #26854437 - 07/30/20 09:26 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
Modern society is not very accommodating to self defense. People who take the initiative to learn the arts of unarmed combat are unfairly held to an unrealistic standard of restraint.

It's best to just avoid dangerous situations as much as possible.




Well even (actual) martial arts instructors suggest the same, to not actively look for trouble. But if it does find you then be ready and also to run when outnumbered.

The movies lie when they present a single trained expert against the mob, in reality the mob wins. No real trainer will tell you to stay and fight as that would be suicide.

Restraint is good as often one can get carried away, but even temperance must know when to end itself.

Also the point about a person who killed and will kill again has me rethinking my stance. It would be very hypocritical of me to preach nonviolence while letting someone commit wanton slaughter.

The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854443 - 07/30/20 09:29 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.




You sound brainwashed or kind of conceited.

First off, the fact that you are alive means you put your own life above the lives of the plants and animals you eat.  It's just a fact.  Their life ends so yours continues.  Even vegetarian farming practices require killing animals to keep them from eating the crop.

The idea that you wouldn't defend your family from attackers sounds like someone who doesn't care about their family as much as they care about their self-perception.  Sounds like ego games.  "The people trying to kill the people I care about are all equal so I'd rather let them kill my family so that I can maintain my self-perception as more moral than those who commit violence against people actively hurting people."  :meff:

Ego games innit?


You're such a good person, that spreading love to a significant other and then reproduce or adopt a child and teach it in your ways of goodness so that future generations of people can know goodness is just not your thing.  And if you saw someone raping someone, you wouldn't do anything because your morals dictate that all people are equal value?  But if someone messes with your dog, well then you're John Wick???? 


Edited by MrBlueYoMind (07/30/20 09:45 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 1
    #26854469 - 07/30/20 09:44 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

That seems rather accurate. You have a point that this seems like a part of me wanting to be above "the rabble" who can't use words to tone down a fight. It is ego in the end, some vain attempt to look good.

Truthfully I often run scenarios in my head about what to do if someone came into my house and how to go about things. How to render them incapacitated. I'm not sure I'd go as far to learn a gun, the last thing this world needs is more guns. But a knife I can get behind.

I haven't bee truly tested yet and I vehemently hope I never end up being so. But I have to concede to everyone else on here, when push comes to shove it's either you or them.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854477 - 07/30/20 09:49 PM (3 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
That seems rather accurate. You have a point that this seems like a part of me wanting to be above "the rabble" who can't use words to tone down a fight. It is ego in the end, some vain attempt to look good.

Truthfully I often run scenarios in my head about what to do if someone came into my house and how to go about things. How to render them incapacitated. I'm not sure I'd go as far to learn a gun, the last thing this world needs is more guns. But a knife I can get behind.

I haven't bee truly tested yet and I vehemently hope I never end up being so. But I have to concede to everyone else on here, when push comes to shove it's either you or them.






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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854567 - 07/30/20 10:47 PM (3 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Alright, I'll bite.

I'm a big believer in nonviolence, and I believe in not using violence even in self defense, and I don't want to argue against nonviolence. Especially during protests, it's totally backwards to use violence to defend yourself against violence during a protest. The whole point of a protest is to have people commit violence against you and to respond to that violence nonviolently. So if you respond to violence during a protest using violence, you undermine the whole point and message of the protest.

MLK Jr at one time owned a gun, and when he converted to nonviolence, he got rid of it. He was determined not to use violence even in self defense even outside of protests. I admire that a lot, and I wish that I was strong enough to go that route myself. Sometimes I think I am strong enough to be able to do that.

But other times I'm weak, and I think "I don't want some crazy extremist asshole taking me out." Lately, I've even been thinking about buying a S&W 686 to carry around for self defense. This is gonna sound crazy, but one thing that really influences me is Russia killing people in other countries. If they tried that with me (not that they ever would, but still), I'd like to be able to respond to the attacker with a 686.

But make no mistakes, this is weakness on my part. I'd like to be able to follow the philosophy of nonviolence all the way down the wire like MLK Jr did, but I'm just don't think I'm strong enough to do that. And it's shameful to admit that, but there it is.

Well, so far I don't own any guns, but I've been thinking about it a lot lately: a shotgun for the home, a revolver for going out, and a rifle for hiking. We'll see if I can resist the temptation or not. Again, I'd like to be able to stick to nonviolence, but I just don't know if I'm strong enough to do that.

Anyway, I admire nonviolence a lot, and I really don't want to argue against it. I think it is morally superior to violence even in self defense. Me being tempted by violence is weakness on my part.



I think this is a really mature post, and it resonates with me greatly. I'm generally a nonviolent person, and I think that MLK Jr's decision to get rid of his gun is accurately described as "strength".

I also think a lot of what you're saying (and everything I said in my previous post) applies to the hypothetical situation others are bringing up where it's not yourself you're defending, but other people. To that end, I'd make the point (similar to one I made in my previous post) that violence might not necessarily neutralize a situation where someone is attacking someone you love, so you might as well use some other method. For any hypothetical situation you could come up with where a gun would save my lover's life (or my child's life) from an attacker, I can come up with another hypothetical situation in which that same gun wouldn't be enough to save anyone from an attacker. Seeing that this is the case, why not just opt for a nonlethal method? The problem isn't the decision of whether or not you should defend someone by use of violent force - the problem is that violence exists in the first place, and I think it's critical that we address why that is, and to question our assumption (if it exists) that violence is just some innate property of being human.

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
I dont judge but good thing there are people like me and asante and hopefully, if you are ever in such a situation, someone like us will be around to kill/harm for you



I'm not going to judge you, either, but if you killed an attacker to save my life, I wouldn't be thanking you specifically for using violence. Don't get me wrong, in that situation I would be infinitely grateful that you saved my life, but I wouldn't be grateful specifically for the violence. To clarify: I would be just as grateful for some hero who used nonviolent / nonlethal methods of intervention to save my life - the only difference between those two hypothetical scenarios is that one of them ends with a dead body and the other one doesn't. So, again, I think it comes down to the question of: why not just opt for a nonlethal method?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26854577 - 07/30/20 10:57 PM (3 days, 22 hours ago)

Since the "incident" recently it's on them. I'll blast if I have to like any other american


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26854608 - 07/30/20 11:24 PM (3 days, 21 hours ago)

That is my great hope too, that the situation can be dissolved without needing a body bag or a stretcher or an ambulance.

But real life is messy and while we like to think almost everyone can be reasoned with (counting myself among that), I have to give weight to the point that not everything can be talked out of. I doubt I could reason with extremists in the Middle East, or the worst of homophobes, etc. People strongly entrenched in their views don't usually move out of them. It breaks my heart because they were raised that way.

I do admire MLK Jr for what he did and it is something I aspire to. To meet hate with an iron will and have it shatter against it, to weather the slings and arrows of opposition. But what if there is no nonviolent solution?

As for violence being part of being human, that's kinda of messy. Part of it is yes and part of it is no.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 3
    #26854620 - 07/30/20 11:32 PM (3 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Its that I believe that all people have equal value




I don't believe that at all. People are not what they want to be, think they are, wish they were, or aspire to be. They are the sum of their actions, and some people's actions have no value or negative value.

The desire to remove the consequences of being wrong has made the world worse. It isn't loving when you let people act negatively and call it positivity so as not to offend anyone. Lies are negative, and the world lies to itself today believing it is being kind.

What it is doing is actually leaving people stuck where they are.

I care enough about people, and believe in them enough and in their ability to change, that I won't lie to them. I will hurt their feelings and lose them as friends or family, but I will not let them lead negative lives strictly because I didn't want to offend them.

If more people would teach consequences, fewer people would think of trying to kill others. I love people and want them to live, but I can't change the consequences of jumping off the cliff, and it is not the responsibility of the ground to move out of the way. Attacking another person is a hugely negative act, and can only produce negative results, but self defense is a positive action and can neutralize negativity and restore balance to a sickened world.

Consequences are reality. You should not lay down your life to make the world more of a lie and more negative. In fact, you have a responsibility not to do that.

We are batteries. We all have potential, but we are not all of equal value. If that is true, there is no reason to aspire to be more; you're already as good as anyone can be.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 2
    #26854724 - 07/31/20 12:51 AM (3 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I wouldn’t have a wife and kid, not my thing



Makes sense :thumbup:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26854858 - 07/31/20 04:14 AM (3 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
Paw runs a cat shelter in Odessa TX.  He votes Trump, and works in the spice industry.  He also lets his stepdaughters boyfriend stay over for days at a time, put his feet on the table, and raid the fridge.




Other than the slight issue of voting Trump, I don't see a problem with any of that.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26854994 - 07/31/20 07:44 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

The thing is, your claim that you believe everyone is of equal value is not what you actually believe.  You actually believe that being non-violent is of superior value to people who use violence. 

I know not everyone is equal in value because there are people out there that are better than me.  There just are.  I'm far from perfect I've made hella mistakes and to think I'm somehow of equal value to people who do more for others and their community and have less character defects than me would be pompous and arrogant.  All people ought to be treated with human decency, but that doesn't mean all people have equal value. 

You honestly think a meth-smoking child rapist-murderer is of equal value to a someone that dedicates 100% of their time being of service to others in the community by building housing and mentoring youths away from gangs and criminality?  Sounds fake as fuck.

You sound brainwashed into eliminating yourself from existence while patting yourself on the back for doing so.

This thread seems like one of those "virtue signals" people talk about.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #26854997 - 07/31/20 07:46 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

Dont worry as I said in that situation I would not be doing it out of choice :ruggedwink:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 2
    #26855011 - 07/31/20 07:59 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

Personally I don't see it as placing different values on people's lives, but that nobody's life is so valuable that they should be allowed to do really terrible things unchecked. If there is no other option than to use potentially lethal force, that's regrettable, but the alternative is letting a greater evil continue.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi] * 1
    #26855016 - 07/31/20 08:02 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

If someone is killing for no reason and will kill again and my ONLY option is to use my firearm then I will do so with zero regret.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26855021 - 07/31/20 08:05 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
Other than the slight issue of voting Trump, I don't see a problem with any of that.





The man rescues, and rehabilitates homeless kittens.  I wasn't really suggesting any "problems".

...but if you'd be okay with your daughters boyfriend laying around your house, and eating all your food....you've probably been that guy at one point or another.  Am I wrong?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855023 - 07/31/20 08:06 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with that point as well as that of potential.

The truth is that everyone has the same value, no one person is worth more than anyone else regardless of the actions they take. They might have more or less value to society or to people sure but in the truest, purest, “objective” sense all people are equal in value. Contrary to the moral adage you are not the sum of your actions. You’re aspirations of more are just you’re own conception of what that is, but that does not make it so.

Even negative and positive are from our own views of what we feel things ought to be or are. Lies are not negative but they do have impacts the same as anything else one does. There is no such thing as good or bad, just actions and consequences. What life is is about being able to live with the consequences of your actions. I think when I browsed this place I saw someone say that taxes aren’t mandatory but there is a consequence for not paying.

You are just as good as anyone else is and will ever be because all values don’t exist in true reality, at least according to Buddhism and a few other spiritualities I’ve studied


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26855028 - 07/31/20 08:08 AM (3 days, 13 hours ago)

Good for your books. Ideas are cool but reality is often a bit different. There are monsters in this world.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow] * 2
    #26855047 - 07/31/20 08:16 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
If someone is killing for no reason and will kill again and my ONLY option is to use my firearm then I will do so with zero regret.





Regret can be a funny thing, doesn't necessarily line up with what you can logically rationalize.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855053 - 07/31/20 08:19 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

-5 is only equal to 5 when you are 0.  0 = nothing = ain't shit.  So anyone who thinks there is no bad or good since they are both equidistance from 0 point and it's only perspective which makes the behavior good or bad, well they ain't shit.  Objectively speaking, of course.

The only way every person can have equal value in the eyes of objectivity is if everyone has no value at all.  AKA 0.


Regret can definitely take shape if you have to injure someone, even in defense.  I think the regret of not stopping a bad person would be greater than the regret of stopping them.  :shrug:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi] * 1
    #26855055 - 07/31/20 08:19 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

Fair enough. I feel in this moment that I would not have regret if that scenario, god forbid, ever happens.

Edit: ironically I kinda think like op where everyone's life is equal and would not find any pleasure in it even if it did save people. Nobody should have to die....BUT if there is ever a scenario that is HAS to be done then I suppose I am mentally preparing myself to try to not regret it.


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Edited by spirit_shadow (07/31/20 08:21 AM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855059 - 07/31/20 08:25 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with that point as well as that of potential.

The truth is that everyone has the same value, no one person is worth more than anyone else regardless of the actions they take. They might have more or less value to society or to people sure but in the truest, purest, “objective” sense all people are equal in value. Contrary to the moral adage you are not the sum of your actions. You’re aspirations of more are just you’re own conception of what that is, but that does not make it so.

Even negative and positive are from our own views of what we feel things ought to be or are. Lies are not negative but they do have impacts the same as anything else one does. There is no such thing as good or bad, just actions and consequences. What life is is about being able to live with the consequences of your actions. I think when I browsed this place I saw someone say that taxes aren’t mandatory but there is a consequence for not paying.

You are just as good as anyone else is and will ever be because all values don’t exist in true reality, at least according to Buddhism and a few other spiritualities I’ve studied




I'll have to accept that you aren't convinced by my statements and leave it at that. I wholeheartedly disagree, but I appreciate you explaining how our views differ. I am pleased that your perspective comes from a place of love and not hate. On that at least, we have harmony.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi]
    #26855110 - 07/31/20 08:57 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

I have strong Faith. I'm highly conscientious. I talk with God as a two way street.

I know that even if a nuclear weapon would vaporize me right now in mid-sentence, I would be eternally safe in the Divine Universe's embrace.

That goes for my attacker too. Me with my full 375 lbs jumping up and down on his chest would cut this life short, but through purgantor he'll shoot up to Heaven to become One with Everything, complete loss of all time, and from there on he would eternally reincarnate. His eternal soul woud not be harmed if I'd send him Home.

Asking God, he says: "In your particular case there won't be a need for lethal self defense, but humans are a species of hominid and as such, there are situations in which lethal force is both warranted and justified. To not, in such a case, would be wrong."

We know how God feels about breaking eggs in the process of making an omelet:





All our anguish in this comes in not understanding how it really is, and having no faith in the Prime Mover, the one who moves all of us across this.. educational ride.. that stretches out to all eternity.




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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow] * 1
    #26855126 - 07/31/20 09:05 AM (3 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Fair enough. I feel in this moment that I would not have regret if that scenario, god forbid, ever happens.

Edit: ironically I kinda think like op where everyone's life is equal and would not find any pleasure in it even if it did save people. Nobody should have to die....BUT if there is ever a scenario that is HAS to be done then I suppose I am mentally preparing myself to try to not regret it.




Posted this earlier. Reading WakeboardrB's last thread again I think it's a strong possibility he did commit suicide. That thread is not one of the Pub's finer moments. Not long before that (the first thread) he had killed someone in self-defense.

Quote:

psi said:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16314657

The last thread he made was "When is it time to end it". :uhoh:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16411186




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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi] * 1
    #26855132 - 07/31/20 09:12 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

Damn :feelssadman:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26855174 - 07/31/20 09:40 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

We have very opposite views of what and who God is, and yet there's a tremendous amount of harmony in what we believe. Interesting!


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 3
    #26855182 - 07/31/20 09:45 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

Everyone I know who has taken a life says it will weigh super heavy on your conscience even if it’s 100 percent justified self defense.  If it doesn’t congrats, but that’d make me a little wary of you personally.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26855184 - 07/31/20 09:50 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

Your words remind me of this I came across the internet:



I have no reason or evidence to believe in god in any sense or divinity or spirit. I’ve had my time during many paths and the none at all and in the end I came out with no belief in god. But I guess whatever helps one sleep.

In my studies I came to see that we as a species have a tendency to wish for order in the world and we make things to have it appear to be so. God, justice, duty, but from what I can tell these exist only in our heads and we often fight over which one is better.

I’ve also learned that many people claim to talk to god and to carry out orders from god, etc. I can’t say who is right but they sure seem certain of themselves.

That is why I can’t agree with someone saying a life is worth more or less than another because it’s just an opinion and everyone has one. I don’t feel it’s right to murder someone or harm them unless they truly violated some cosmic rule that we can prove to be so. I think if everyone saw that no one is worth more or less than any other that then we would not need self defense.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855191 - 07/31/20 09:55 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with that point as well as that of potential.

The truth is that everyone has the same value, no one person is worth more than anyone else regardless of the actions they take. They might have more or less value to society or to people sure but in the truest, purest, “objective” sense all people are equal in value. Contrary to the moral adage you are not the sum of your actions. You’re aspirations of more are just you’re own conception of what that is, but that does not make it so.

Even negative and positive are from our own views of what we feel things ought to be or are. Lies are not negative but they do have impacts the same as anything else one does. There is no such thing as good or bad, just actions and consequences. What life is is about being able to live with the consequences of your actions. I think when I browsed this place I saw someone say that taxes aren’t mandatory but there is a consequence for not paying.

You are just as good as anyone else is and will ever be because all values don’t exist in true reality, at least according to Buddhism and a few other spiritualities I’ve studied




I'll have to accept that you aren't convinced by my statements and leave it at that. I wholeheartedly disagree, but I appreciate you explaining how our views differ. I am pleased that your perspective comes from a place of love and not hate. On that at least, we have harmony.



I take this stance as well. BUT, I do feel like child pedos should be punished more harshly. If someone is attacking me or a loved one, I think it would be just a reflex to defend myself or them. I definitely do not want to have a killing on my conscience, ever. Me and the mate talked about this the other day actually. We keep a 38 by the bed.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26855194 - 07/31/20 09:55 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26855211 - 07/31/20 10:05 AM (3 days, 11 hours ago)

I felt that video got the point I was trying to make.

That the way we try to act that the judgments we make are solid and right, but many have suffered at the hand of such things. Lots of religions in the past felt they were doing right when they stoned innocents or harmed those who believed things other than they did.

I’m sorry but I refuse to act as those who came before me, rationalizing pain and death. I still get chills when I read how some suggested culling the poor like they are some nameless mass or a tumor.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26855227 - 07/31/20 10:14 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.



Ah ha! I think you're right, plus the "end of the world" thing etc...


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #26855229 - 07/31/20 10:15 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Everyone I know who has taken a life says it will weigh super heavy on your conscience even if it’s 100 percent justified self defense.  If it doesn’t congrats, but that’d make me a little wary of you personally.




My wife died in my arms from a blood cancer that caused her to slowly suffocate to death. I watched petechiae appear all over her body, blood vessels in her eyes rupture, and listened to her last breath seep out of her lungs. It was traumatic.

Life is full of horrific shit and you have to find a way to go on. I don't discount what you are saying, but I don't think that's something a rational person should be unable to recover from. Military people with PTSD have several stressors aside from the killing they may have done, so please don't think I am saying returning vets should "get over it" and don't think I say it is unnecessary to get help in most cases. I'm just saying that I think most people can recover from taking a life, just as most can recover from losing a loved one.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi]
    #26855278 - 07/31/20 10:44 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

I think there is a difference between losing a loved one to something out of your control (like illness) and being the one to pull the trigger on someone else. Though soldiers have it worse being surrounded by death and gore and the smell of battle.

By no means do I mean to take away from the passing of your wife. I just feel there is a difference in the two events. One is out of our hands and is a little easier to accept while the other is a choice we make that we have to live with.


Edited by endtimes (07/31/20 10:45 AM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26855283 - 07/31/20 10:48 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

1234go said:
^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.



Ah ha! I think you're right, plus the "end of the world" thing etc...





And he sure seems to talk about things "existing/not existing" quite a bit...hmmmm.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26855296 - 07/31/20 10:54 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.



:incredible:

:justastonishing:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855304 - 07/31/20 11:01 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

:whathesaid:

Literally was going to quote the same thing and make a similar point.
I agree with the weight on conscience part, but how I would imagine the taking of a life is that it's not like a guilt, but like just the stain that is left on your innocent-at-birth soul.

This is a good thread.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855305 - 07/31/20 11:03 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
We have very opposite views of what and who God is, and yet there's a tremendous amount of harmony in what we believe. Interesting!





What and who is God in your beliefs?

We all get the mataphors that work for them, it does not matter what metaphor we believe in as long as the outcome keeps us on the rails of The Ride.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #26855313 - 07/31/20 11:07 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Everyone I know who has taken a life says it will weigh super heavy on your conscience even if it’s 100 percent justified self defense.  If it doesn’t congrats, but that’d make me a little wary of you personally.



Yeah, for sure. But you would think there would be a way to mentally prepare yourself for such a thing. I mean I'm sure hunters have a leg up in that area as they have already taken lives.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855335 - 07/31/20 11:15 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with that point as well as that of potential.

The truth is that everyone has the same value, no one person is worth more than anyone else regardless of the actions they take. They might have more or less value to society or to people sure but in the truest, purest, “objective” sense all people are equal in value. Contrary to the moral adage you are not the sum of your actions. You’re aspirations of more are just you’re own conception of what that is, but that does not make it so.

Even negative and positive are from our own views of what we feel things ought to be or are. Lies are not negative but they do have impacts the same as anything else one does. There is no such thing as good or bad, just actions and consequences. What life is is about being able to live with the consequences of your actions. I think when I browsed this place I saw someone say that taxes aren’t mandatory but there is a consequence for not paying.

You are just as good as anyone else is and will ever be because all values don’t exist in true reality, at least according to Buddhism and a few other spiritualities I’ve studied



I understand where you are coming from with this philosophy. However, like you may know it is not of any help in this world with people, in society or on this earth in any way. Most people spend time deep in the subjective experience and it does not matter what is true when not taking into account people's subjectiveness, because people will never be anything else. Becoming too detached from the world of people and nature and subjective things like good and bad is not good for a person's soul. Having said that, a temporary detachment and change of perspective may be good.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855362 - 07/31/20 11:26 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I have to give weight to the point that not everything can be talked out of.




Then I guess I'd also have to give weight to the point that not everything can be solved with a gun, either :shrug: For any hypothetical life-or-death situation where a gun could save your life, I could come up with another one where a gun doesn't save your life. You can't solve every problem in life using just talk, but you also can't solve every problem in life with violence, so it really seems like there is no perfect tool for solving all of our problems. I'm gonna just stick with nonviolence and accept the fact that, sometimes, I'm gonna be faced with problems I fail to resolve.

Quote:

endtimes said:
I doubt I could reason with extremists in the Middle East, or the worst of homophobes, etc. People strongly entrenched in their views don't usually move out of them. It breaks my heart because they were raised that way.



Yeah, you can't use reason to demonstrate the importance of being reasonable. Still, I think there are nonviolent solutions to the problems of violent extremists and homophobia. You mentioned that it was "because they were raised that way". Though that's an oversimplification, I think it's partially true, and it points towards a nonviolent solution. Perhaps the nonviolent solution to reducing extremism and homophobia starts with better education and better family planning? If a lot of these problems are rooted in the way people are brought up, then we can find a nonviolent method for changing the way we raise people as a society. I'm aware that's a super simple and vague idea and, of course, "family planning and education" isn't going to stop an attacker in his tracks in the heat of the moment. Still, I don't think I need to go in any more detail to demonstrate that a nonviolent solution to these problems is possible.

When you start looking at violence as a problem that affects an entire society rather than just looking at particular individuals as violent or nonviolent, you can start to see systemic solutions that don't involve violence.

Quote:

endtimes said:
But what if there is no nonviolent solution?




What if there is, though? I don't think we could answer either way at this point. Might as well at least try for nonviolence, right?

Quote:

endtimes said:
As for violence being part of being human, that's kinda of messy. Part of it is yes and part of it is no.



I agree that it's messy and non-obvious, which is why I think we ought to question whether or not it's true.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #26855394 - 07/31/20 11:43 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
I think the regret of not stopping a bad person would be greater than the regret of stopping them.  :shrug:



I don't think that resonates with me, necessarily. If I failed to intervene as someone else was attacked, that would be a pretty traumatic situation. However, it would be traumatic in a different way to take the attacker's life. There would be regret there either way, and it's not entirely obvious to me which one would be greater because I've never lived either of those situations.

Obviously, I would prefer for the attack to not happen in the first place, but that's not the world we live in right now. Still, I don't know which one of those two positions I would prefer to go through, and I don't think it's obvious which one is morally better, either. Both of those hypothetical situations end with a dead body, and I don't know if I would necessarily consider it morally better that the attacker died just because he's an attacker. Obviously, if the victim was someone I loved, then I would personally prefer that person to live, but I don't know if that means it's better for them to live and have the attacker die. It's also interesting to think about how I would feel if the victim was a very evil person and the attacker was someone I loved. My point with all of that is that I don't think simply being an attacker is always enough to justify taking a person's life. Ethics are so complicated :confused:

I'm not really proposing a solution to this problem we're discussing, but I am expressing skepticism of the claim that it would somehow be worse (worse psychologically, or worse morally) to not stop an attacker than to stop them using lethal force. I don't think that's true in every situation.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26855399 - 07/31/20 11:45 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Well your point about what if there is a nonviolent solution doesn't get us anywhere. It's just a deflection, a hypothetical "what if" that doesn't answer the response on what you or I would do if we can't find a non violent solution. That is the basis of the question and deflecting is not an answer. I doubt reason will stop a bear or mountain lion that wants to kill me.

When it comes to the extremists I feel it's a coin toss. I mean Ghandi and MLK has success when they showed up with nonviolence, but then again racism still persisted it just grew hidden and less obvious. There are still areas where I would not go visit for that reason, don't tempt fate.

I like nonviolence and would love if it always worked. But like any path one walks in life the true measure of a person is how they react when their creed fails them. When the gun lover can't shoot their way out or when the pacifist can't talk their way out. The point is not "what if there is another way" the point is "what if there is no other way".

Depending on your stance will you lay your arms down or take a life?

EDIT: That is what I meant earlier when I said I wouldn't know what to do if there was no nonviolent solution.


Edited by endtimes (07/31/20 11:57 AM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855441 - 07/31/20 12:15 PM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Well your point about what if there is a nonviolent solution doesn't get us anywhere. It's just a deflection, a hypothetical "what if" that doesn't answer the response on what you or I would do if we can't find a non violent solution. That is the basis of the question and deflecting is not an answer.



Well, I never claimed that I would have answers to your questions... This is a discussion, not a Q + A. I'm simply responding to your "what if" with another "what if". My intention wasn't to deflect your position, but rather to show you that my "what if" is just as relevant as yours.

When it comes to these more philosophical discussions, I tend not to put forward many solutions. Offering concrete solutions to philosophical problems like whether or not it's justifiable to use violence is extremely difficult, if not impossible. I find that these discussions lead to more questions than they do answers. That doesn't mean it's pointless - I think this has been a really fruitful discussion from all angles, and reading through the thread has given me some new things to think about. Still, I don't think we're any closer to finding an answer of whether or not it's justifiable to use violence - seems like one of those things humans have been debating about since the dawn of philosophy.

Quote:

endtimes said:
I doubt reason will stop a bear or mountain lion that wants to kill me.




Of course not. Hope you never have to be in that situation haha. However, I'll say that there is technology that doesn't involve permanently harming or killing the animal to get out of that situation. Bear Mace is a thing, and it's nonlethal.

Quote:

endtimes said:
When it comes to the extremists I feel it's a coin toss. I mean Ghandi and MLK has success when they showed up with nonviolence, but then again racism still persisted it just grew hidden and less obvious. There are still areas where I would not go visit for that reason, don't tempt fate.




Indeed, racism persisted after MLK and other activists of his time. That said, there has been undeniable progress in civil rights since his time. We can't say that nothing really changed just because racism still exists, and for that reason I think we should always strive to be better, even if we know we'll never be perfect. Furthermore, I would argue that striving for nonviolent resolutions to racism and other forms of human chauvinism is better than settling for violent ones.

Quote:

endtimes said:
When the gun lover can't shoot their way out or when the pacifist can't talk their way out. The point is not "what if there is another way" the point is "what if there is no other way".




I don't think I agree with that. Both of those questions seem equally valid to me, and asking either one of them to yourself in that sort of situation might lead to the same action. You might answer "what if there is another way" with "no, there isn't", and you might answer "what if there is no other way" with "yeah, there isn't" - either of those answers would lead to the same action...

Quote:

endtimes said:
Depending on your stance will you lay your arms down or take a life?



Philosophically, I lay my arms down. In the heat of the moment, I have no idea how I'd actually react - I'm only human, and even the most devout philosopher cannot live without his blood. Thankfully, I've never been in a situation where I had to decide whether or not to take an attackers life to save someone else's life (or my own life). However, if I was thrown into that situation (heaven forbid), it might change my perspective. I keep an open mind about these sorts of things, but from my current vantage point, I choose nonviolence.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26855466 - 07/31/20 12:31 PM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

That sort of what I'm trying to get at.

People here are right, it's easy to speculate from safety. But when truly tested well...Who knows.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855593 - 07/31/20 01:59 PM (3 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
That sort of what I'm trying to get at.

People here are right, it's easy to speculate from safety. But when truly tested well...Who knows.



To that end, I'd pose this question: how do you know when you're being truly tested? Where we draw the line between a situation that absolutely requires lethal intervention and one that might have some other possibility seems like it might vary from person to person based off their experience, right? I think the idea that there is some line that gets crossed and that this line is the same for everyone is suspect.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26855615 - 07/31/20 02:15 PM (3 days, 6 hours ago)

.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (07/31/20 02:47 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26855658 - 07/31/20 02:53 PM (3 days, 6 hours ago)

It’s one of those “when you experience it you’ll know” type of things. It’s not the same for all but it is there. When someone can’t solve an action through violence and when nonviolent means aren’t possible or don’t solve anything. Like when someone brought up a serial killer who would kill again and again unless stopped. Or when someone will murder your loved ones and there is no non violent path. Or when you are out gunned and surrounded and can’t fight out.

Every philosophy reaches a breaking point eventually if you live long enough.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855793 - 07/31/20 04:31 PM (3 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Every philosophy reaches a breaking point eventually if you live long enough.



Sure, like I said, even the most devout philosopher cannot live without his blood. I try not to cling on too tightly to any one point of view, because even our best tools of reasoning are always either inconsistent or incomplete. I think of any particular philosophy on ethics as a tool for understanding reality, but nothing more than that. Still, my most primitive assumptions about reality have an influence on my actions (however subtle that may be), so I try to be picky about my philosophy. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yeah, any philosophy will have flaws or questions it can't really answer, but that doesn't mean we should give up on philosophy.


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Edited by Nonagon Infinity (07/31/20 04:32 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26855974 - 07/31/20 06:19 PM (3 days, 2 hours ago)

Not at all. Just be ready for the times it will fail.

I heard someone mention that moral rules are so gray and there is always some debate about what one OUGHT to do and that the only thing you should do is look out for your own (people who you love and care for) and that is the most you can do.

It's practical I'll say that.


Edited by endtimes (07/31/20 06:31 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26856160 - 07/31/20 08:09 PM (3 days, 1 hour ago)

I absolutely would defend myself without hesitation and with great respect. I would not feel bad.  I hold the lives of loved ones and myself in high regard. I've seen real shit happen.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nichrome]
    #26856742 - 08/01/20 07:06 AM (2 days, 14 hours ago)

The more value a person feels they have, the more they will defend themselves. And not just against a physical threat, but threats to things of value to them.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26856758 - 08/01/20 07:18 AM (2 days, 13 hours ago)

Some things are worth fighting for.




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Edited by Asante (08/01/20 07:19 AM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26856802 - 08/01/20 07:56 AM (2 days, 13 hours ago)

I guess it depends what you consider to be worth it.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26856833 - 08/01/20 08:22 AM (2 days, 12 hours ago)

Philosophy has always ran with ones we love. The topic has not been really understood at times but at the end of the day that love prevails and protects and will not allow evil to take advantage over the purpouse of philosophy..

Dont fuck with philosophy.. It runs with karma, and that is an unbreakable law of nature.. Theres a chasm between Philosophy and the natural law since I can ever remember and things appear to have happened that are causing these two phenomena to merge.. It isn't complete.. But when love and those you care about keep being threatened by the evil of this world, whether it be from gangs or just a small group of 5 guys, karma and philosophy, the deeper understanding and higher forces of gods law will always win


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: John_PLUR84] * 1
    #26856841 - 08/01/20 08:28 AM (2 days, 12 hours ago)

Lemme check the ban list real fast so I know who I'm speaking to... :lol:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26856851 - 08/01/20 08:38 AM (2 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
Lemme check the ban list real fast so I know who I'm speaking to... :lol:







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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: John_PLUR84]
    #26857097 - 08/01/20 11:16 AM (2 days, 9 hours ago)

Uhhhhh, what?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26857435 - 08/01/20 03:20 PM (2 days, 5 hours ago)

Every living think defends itself,why should humans be different.  You have a right to exist as much as the next.

:rofl2: I wrote think, but sure meaning was understood.


Edited by Ice9 (08/01/20 03:48 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Ice9]
    #26857463 - 08/01/20 03:39 PM (2 days, 5 hours ago)

I cannot deny that.

But I think humans complicate things more than animals do. With animals it’s life and death with predator and prey. With humans it’s nothing like that, at least not in a literal sense. Much of the violence and death we cause is just ignorance, pure foolishness and if we were only a little smarter and more aware it wouldn’t happen to begin with.

Yes every living thing defends itself (well aside from most planets), but I think it’s different with humans.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26857468 - 08/01/20 03:42 PM (2 days, 5 hours ago)

Cats kill things for fun all the time.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26857682 - 08/01/20 06:51 PM (2 days, 2 hours ago)

Yeah that’s a chilling fact I learned about them.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26857702 - 08/01/20 07:10 PM (2 days, 2 hours ago)

So do orca's and seals and chimps. Black mambas are ass holes and so are fire ants. Raccoons drown dogs.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nichrome]
    #26857976 - 08/01/20 10:47 PM (1 day, 22 hours ago)

Jesus man...

Here I thought it was just cats but I guess everything kills for fun


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26859232 - 08/02/20 04:28 PM (1 day, 4 hours ago)

I also find it troubling to protect what is "mine" considering no one truly "owns" anything and I don't find it worth killing or harming another human being over it (whatever it is).


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26859266 - 08/02/20 04:52 PM (1 day, 4 hours ago)

Ownership of territory, things and ideas is the exercise of power and influence.  Societies often form institutions which allow whole groups to exercise power and influence over the collective in order to legitimize concepts of ownership through action.

If no one owns anything insofar as you're not willing to physically defend a claim to the thing, then the concept of ownership also does not exist enough to be using collectively available tools of nonviolent expressions to power. Reporting a stolen item or using the court system to right a wrong is as illusive when it comes to ownership as any other exercise society offers, violence included. 

Ownership is no more real or fake than any other human social concept. It's established, observable, repeatable and results in action (in the sense that it has an effect on material reality).


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: PatrickKn]
    #26859270 - 08/02/20 04:53 PM (1 day, 4 hours ago)

But bro we are all equal come eat all my food and sleep in my house!

Edit:  actually it sounds kind of dumb when you put like that and not some fanatical philosophical perspective

:somefunnyshit:


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Edited by theRealrollforever (08/02/20 04:54 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26859337 - 08/02/20 05:30 PM (1 day, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I also find it troubling to protect what is "mine" considering no one truly "owns" anything and I don't find it worth killing or harming another human being over it (whatever it is).





There is a difference between killing to save property and killing to prevent loss of life.

Stuff is stuff as far as I'm concerned, but lives are genuinely irreplacable.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26859368 - 08/02/20 05:43 PM (1 day, 3 hours ago)

Some perspectives might disagree (not necessarily suggesting I am one of those).

It reminds me of that saying about when friends and lovers leave you that there will be others, often people say that as a means of comfort (though at the time I'm not sure how much solace that offers). Doesn't that mean that lives are essentially replaceable in the case of death since people suggest that you can make new friends, relationships, etc.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26859405 - 08/02/20 05:56 PM (1 day, 3 hours ago)

Material that has STRONG emotional attatchment > random humans life


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26859442 - 08/02/20 06:23 PM (1 day, 2 hours ago)

That actually does sound more believable. Like a keepsake from your dead parents or grandparents, or husband/wife.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26859451 - 08/02/20 06:26 PM (1 day, 2 hours ago)

The guitar that my (deceased)father gave me as a child would qualify, for me anyway.

Edit: again in a WORST case scenario. This is all just thought experiments which in my opinion are very healthy. In actuality I dont want to harm anyone if I really dont have to.


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Edited by spirit_shadow (08/02/20 06:27 PM)


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26859464 - 08/02/20 06:31 PM (1 day, 2 hours ago)

While I don't have any moral views on this issue, I think it's better to let the wind, or hurricane take one. There's more life afterwards and the guilt is strong in people who kill, repressed guilt or not. But...
I would naturally fight for my life if someone tried to do me in.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Ancient Mariner]
    #26859476 - 08/02/20 06:37 PM (1 day, 2 hours ago)

That's what I'm saying. There has to be a way to either prepare yourself or have a method down to where it wouldn't impact your daily life at least.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26859493 - 08/02/20 06:42 PM (1 day, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Material that has STRONG emotional attatchment > random humans life






I realize how special sentimental possessions are,  but i hope you're joking around.  Would you honestly choose to save the guitar over another life?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26859518 - 08/02/20 06:51 PM (1 day, 2 hours ago)

What exactly makes that other life more valuable than something that you value greatly.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26859574 - 08/02/20 07:18 PM (1 day, 1 hour ago)

It kinda goes without saying... not gonna debate this with you.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow] * 2
    #26859605 - 08/02/20 07:37 PM (1 day, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Material that has STRONG emotional attatchment > random humans life





I possess no object I consider worth killing over.

I inherited mementos from my mother, she'd spin in her metaphorical grave if I killed over them.

Smash it all to pieces, its just stuff.

Lives are more valuable to me than stuff.

That said I value some lives less than others.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26859702 - 08/02/20 08:34 PM (1 day, 37 minutes ago)

I think it is worth debating in a sense. The adage that life is worth more than things is something that is just assumed and taken as a given but not explained why. I always wondered why we just assume that to be the case.

One can say it's just stuff, but that is a personal stance. To someone else it might be more than just that. Who is one to say which is worth more in the ultimate sense? I have plenty of things that I value far more than some random individual.

I don't think lives are always worth more than personal possessions, but it depends on the possession in question though. A napkin can't really be compared to the last remaining memory of a lost home (for those who fled war torn or oppressive countries). My stuffed lion I had as a child and still do is worth more to me than most people on this forum and most people I met in life. It might be slightly egotistical to place such importance on lives (in a sense).


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26859720 - 08/02/20 08:43 PM (1 day, 29 minutes ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Material that has STRONG emotional attatchment > random humans life






I realize how special sentimental possessions are,  but i hope you're joking around.  Would you honestly choose to save the guitar over another life?



What is the scenario?


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26859724 - 08/02/20 08:45 PM (1 day, 26 minutes ago)

Also, I've already established I'd turn you into a stack of hundreds if I could so how are you suprised? :awehigh:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26860614 - 08/03/20 11:26 AM (9 hours, 45 minutes ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
What is the scenario?







The scenario you mentioned.  Your guitar...or a random persons life. 

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
Material that has STRONG emotional attatchment > random humans life





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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26860646 - 08/03/20 11:43 AM (9 hours, 29 minutes ago)

I agree with spirit, something with strong emotional meaning to me is worth more than some random person I don't know. It would be arrogant to think my life is worth more than something truly precious to someone else.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 2
    #26860652 - 08/03/20 11:44 AM (9 hours, 27 minutes ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:

something with strong emotional meaning to me is worth more than some random person I don't know.




That's not healthy. You're supposed to have strong positive bias towards members of your species.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26860812 - 08/03/20 12:57 PM (8 hours, 14 minutes ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
What exactly makes that other life more valuable than something that you value greatly.



Is this guy a troll now? This seems completely opposite to the nonviolence ideology a couple pages back


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26860822 - 08/03/20 01:00 PM (8 hours, 12 minutes ago)

Thanatos, ummm, I mean endtimes does that.:smirk:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26860961 - 08/03/20 02:08 PM (7 hours, 3 minutes ago)

His time here was at an end...


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26861047 - 08/03/20 02:49 PM (6 hours, 22 minutes ago)

:bye:


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26861065 - 08/03/20 02:59 PM (6 hours, 13 minutes ago)

Ha! You called it!


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26861067 - 08/03/20 03:01 PM (6 hours, 11 minutes ago)

No I am not cold hearted but I WANT to say yes my guitar is more valuable than say..... a random serial killers life.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow] * 1
    #26861080 - 08/03/20 03:05 PM (6 hours, 7 minutes ago)

Are there unrandom serial killers?:smirk:


--------------------

Watermelon man-"I think that society and just everything , it dose a good job at making people want to live some bull shit fairytale. it's mostly just so they can suck whatever out of us. The only thing they can suck is my dick." :smile:


Edited by tyrannicalrex (08/03/20 03:17 PM)


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Onlinespirit_shadow
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26861094 - 08/03/20 03:11 PM (6 hours, 1 minute ago)

Either way idk what I would do in the moment but I WANT to say yes so :p to 1234go I'm just a selfish sociopath I suppose :house:


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow] * 2
    #26861171 - 08/03/20 04:09 PM (5 hours, 3 minutes ago)

There are people who go out of their way consistently to make people as unhappy as they possibly can. People that leave a trail of people behind them, hurt, traumatized, wondering what the fuck they did to deserve what they got.

I'm less distressed if they meet an early death than if that fate befell an average person.

Then there are people who constently go out of their way to help others, often partially at their own expense, out of a strong desire to do good, often in complete anonymity, without virtue signalling.

The wellbeing of these people, who elevate the species, concerns me more than that of the average person, whom I still value very much.

I guess its only natural.


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OfflineAncient Mariner
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26861478 - 08/03/20 07:24 PM (1 hour, 47 minutes ago)

I'm happy with all the opinions here but I don't really feel hate towards even people like john wayne gacy. People either do shit because fucked up shit happened to them or they were not born with empathy, which is really their loss when it comes to fulfillment. That doesn't stop me from wishing everybody who cuts through traffic meaninglessly to swerve into a big pile of shit.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Ancient Mariner]
    #26861613 - 08/03/20 08:41 PM (30 minutes, 42 seconds ago)

Quote:

Ancient Mariner said:
I'm happy with all the opinions here but I don't really feel hate towards even people like john wayne gacy.



I don't think that's controversial. I don't feel hatred towards people like John Wayne Gacy. I think that lack of hatred is consistent with the empathy for the victims and all the people who were impacted by the atrocities he committed, meaning it's reasonable to hold both of those positions at the same time.


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