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Offlineendtimes
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Registered: 06/14/20
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26855184 - 07/31/20 09:50 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Your words remind me of this I came across the internet:



I have no reason or evidence to believe in god in any sense or divinity or spirit. I’ve had my time during many paths and the none at all and in the end I came out with no belief in god. But I guess whatever helps one sleep.

In my studies I came to see that we as a species have a tendency to wish for order in the world and we make things to have it appear to be so. God, justice, duty, but from what I can tell these exist only in our heads and we often fight over which one is better.

I’ve also learned that many people claim to talk to god and to carry out orders from god, etc. I can’t say who is right but they sure seem certain of themselves.

That is why I can’t agree with someone saying a life is worth more or less than another because it’s just an opinion and everyone has one. I don’t feel it’s right to murder someone or harm them unless they truly violated some cosmic rule that we can prove to be so. I think if everyone saw that no one is worth more or less than any other that then we would not need self defense.


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InvisibletyrannicalrexS
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855191 - 07/31/20 09:55 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with that point as well as that of potential.

The truth is that everyone has the same value, no one person is worth more than anyone else regardless of the actions they take. They might have more or less value to society or to people sure but in the truest, purest, “objective” sense all people are equal in value. Contrary to the moral adage you are not the sum of your actions. You’re aspirations of more are just you’re own conception of what that is, but that does not make it so.

Even negative and positive are from our own views of what we feel things ought to be or are. Lies are not negative but they do have impacts the same as anything else one does. There is no such thing as good or bad, just actions and consequences. What life is is about being able to live with the consequences of your actions. I think when I browsed this place I saw someone say that taxes aren’t mandatory but there is a consequence for not paying.

You are just as good as anyone else is and will ever be because all values don’t exist in true reality, at least according to Buddhism and a few other spiritualities I’ve studied




I'll have to accept that you aren't convinced by my statements and leave it at that. I wholeheartedly disagree, but I appreciate you explaining how our views differ. I am pleased that your perspective comes from a place of love and not hate. On that at least, we have harmony.



I take this stance as well. BUT, I do feel like child pedos should be punished more harshly. If someone is attacking me or a loved one, I think it would be just a reflex to defend myself or them. I definitely do not want to have a killing on my conscience, ever. Me and the mate talked about this the other day actually. We keep a 38 by the bed.


--------------------

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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26855194 - 07/31/20 09:55 AM (3 days, 10 hours ago)

^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26855211 - 07/31/20 10:05 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

I felt that video got the point I was trying to make.

That the way we try to act that the judgments we make are solid and right, but many have suffered at the hand of such things. Lots of religions in the past felt they were doing right when they stoned innocents or harmed those who believed things other than they did.

I’m sorry but I refuse to act as those who came before me, rationalizing pain and death. I still get chills when I read how some suggested culling the poor like they are some nameless mass or a tumor.


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InvisibletyrannicalrexS
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26855227 - 07/31/20 10:14 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.



Ah ha! I think you're right, plus the "end of the world" thing etc...


--------------------

Watermelon man-"I think that society and just everything , it dose a good job at making people want to live some bull shit fairytale. it's mostly just so they can suck whatever out of us. The only thing they can suck is my dick." :smile:


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #26855229 - 07/31/20 10:15 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Everyone I know who has taken a life says it will weigh super heavy on your conscience even if it’s 100 percent justified self defense.  If it doesn’t congrats, but that’d make me a little wary of you personally.




My wife died in my arms from a blood cancer that caused her to slowly suffocate to death. I watched petechiae appear all over her body, blood vessels in her eyes rupture, and listened to her last breath seep out of her lungs. It was traumatic.

Life is full of horrific shit and you have to find a way to go on. I don't discount what you are saying, but I don't think that's something a rational person should be unable to recover from. Military people with PTSD have several stressors aside from the killing they may have done, so please don't think I am saying returning vets should "get over it" and don't think I say it is unnecessary to get help in most cases. I'm just saying that I think most people can recover from taking a life, just as most can recover from losing a loved one.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi]
    #26855278 - 07/31/20 10:44 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

I think there is a difference between losing a loved one to something out of your control (like illness) and being the one to pull the trigger on someone else. Though soldiers have it worse being surrounded by death and gore and the smell of battle.

By no means do I mean to take away from the passing of your wife. I just feel there is a difference in the two events. One is out of our hands and is a little easier to accept while the other is a choice we make that we have to live with.


Edited by endtimes (07/31/20 10:45 AM)


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #26855283 - 07/31/20 10:48 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

tyrannicalrex said:
Quote:

1234go said:
^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.



Ah ha! I think you're right, plus the "end of the world" thing etc...





And he sure seems to talk about things "existing/not existing" quite a bit...hmmmm.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26855296 - 07/31/20 10:54 AM (3 days, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
^Thanatos10.  Same behavior, attitude, posting style...everything.



:incredible:

:justastonishing:


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855304 - 07/31/20 11:01 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

:whathesaid:

Literally was going to quote the same thing and make a similar point.
I agree with the weight on conscience part, but how I would imagine the taking of a life is that it's not like a guilt, but like just the stain that is left on your innocent-at-birth soul.

This is a good thread.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Srirachi] * 1
    #26855305 - 07/31/20 11:03 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
We have very opposite views of what and who God is, and yet there's a tremendous amount of harmony in what we believe. Interesting!





What and who is God in your beliefs?

We all get the mataphors that work for them, it does not matter what metaphor we believe in as long as the outcome keeps us on the rails of The Ride.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: theRealrollforever]
    #26855313 - 07/31/20 11:07 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

theRealrollforever said:
Everyone I know who has taken a life says it will weigh super heavy on your conscience even if it’s 100 percent justified self defense.  If it doesn’t congrats, but that’d make me a little wary of you personally.



Yeah, for sure. But you would think there would be a way to mentally prepare yourself for such a thing. I mean I'm sure hunters have a leg up in that area as they have already taken lives.


--------------------
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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855335 - 07/31/20 11:15 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I’m afraid I must strongly disagree with that point as well as that of potential.

The truth is that everyone has the same value, no one person is worth more than anyone else regardless of the actions they take. They might have more or less value to society or to people sure but in the truest, purest, “objective” sense all people are equal in value. Contrary to the moral adage you are not the sum of your actions. You’re aspirations of more are just you’re own conception of what that is, but that does not make it so.

Even negative and positive are from our own views of what we feel things ought to be or are. Lies are not negative but they do have impacts the same as anything else one does. There is no such thing as good or bad, just actions and consequences. What life is is about being able to live with the consequences of your actions. I think when I browsed this place I saw someone say that taxes aren’t mandatory but there is a consequence for not paying.

You are just as good as anyone else is and will ever be because all values don’t exist in true reality, at least according to Buddhism and a few other spiritualities I’ve studied



I understand where you are coming from with this philosophy. However, like you may know it is not of any help in this world with people, in society or on this earth in any way. Most people spend time deep in the subjective experience and it does not matter what is true when not taking into account people's subjectiveness, because people will never be anything else. Becoming too detached from the world of people and nature and subjective things like good and bad is not good for a person's soul. Having said that, a temporary detachment and change of perspective may be good.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855362 - 07/31/20 11:26 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I have to give weight to the point that not everything can be talked out of.




Then I guess I'd also have to give weight to the point that not everything can be solved with a gun, either :shrug: For any hypothetical life-or-death situation where a gun could save your life, I could come up with another one where a gun doesn't save your life. You can't solve every problem in life using just talk, but you also can't solve every problem in life with violence, so it really seems like there is no perfect tool for solving all of our problems. I'm gonna just stick with nonviolence and accept the fact that, sometimes, I'm gonna be faced with problems I fail to resolve.

Quote:

endtimes said:
I doubt I could reason with extremists in the Middle East, or the worst of homophobes, etc. People strongly entrenched in their views don't usually move out of them. It breaks my heart because they were raised that way.



Yeah, you can't use reason to demonstrate the importance of being reasonable. Still, I think there are nonviolent solutions to the problems of violent extremists and homophobia. You mentioned that it was "because they were raised that way". Though that's an oversimplification, I think it's partially true, and it points towards a nonviolent solution. Perhaps the nonviolent solution to reducing extremism and homophobia starts with better education and better family planning? If a lot of these problems are rooted in the way people are brought up, then we can find a nonviolent method for changing the way we raise people as a society. I'm aware that's a super simple and vague idea and, of course, "family planning and education" isn't going to stop an attacker in his tracks in the heat of the moment. Still, I don't think I need to go in any more detail to demonstrate that a nonviolent solution to these problems is possible.

When you start looking at violence as a problem that affects an entire society rather than just looking at particular individuals as violent or nonviolent, you can start to see systemic solutions that don't involve violence.

Quote:

endtimes said:
But what if there is no nonviolent solution?




What if there is, though? I don't think we could answer either way at this point. Might as well at least try for nonviolence, right?

Quote:

endtimes said:
As for violence being part of being human, that's kinda of messy. Part of it is yes and part of it is no.



I agree that it's messy and non-obvious, which is why I think we ought to question whether or not it's true.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: MrBlueYoMind]
    #26855394 - 07/31/20 11:43 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

MrBlueYoMind said:
I think the regret of not stopping a bad person would be greater than the regret of stopping them.  :shrug:



I don't think that resonates with me, necessarily. If I failed to intervene as someone else was attacked, that would be a pretty traumatic situation. However, it would be traumatic in a different way to take the attacker's life. There would be regret there either way, and it's not entirely obvious to me which one would be greater because I've never lived either of those situations.

Obviously, I would prefer for the attack to not happen in the first place, but that's not the world we live in right now. Still, I don't know which one of those two positions I would prefer to go through, and I don't think it's obvious which one is morally better, either. Both of those hypothetical situations end with a dead body, and I don't know if I would necessarily consider it morally better that the attacker died just because he's an attacker. Obviously, if the victim was someone I loved, then I would personally prefer that person to live, but I don't know if that means it's better for them to live and have the attacker die. It's also interesting to think about how I would feel if the victim was a very evil person and the attacker was someone I loved. My point with all of that is that I don't think simply being an attacker is always enough to justify taking a person's life. Ethics are so complicated :confused:

I'm not really proposing a solution to this problem we're discussing, but I am expressing skepticism of the claim that it would somehow be worse (worse psychologically, or worse morally) to not stop an attacker than to stop them using lethal force. I don't think that's true in every situation.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26855399 - 07/31/20 11:45 AM (3 days, 8 hours ago)

Well your point about what if there is a nonviolent solution doesn't get us anywhere. It's just a deflection, a hypothetical "what if" that doesn't answer the response on what you or I would do if we can't find a non violent solution. That is the basis of the question and deflecting is not an answer. I doubt reason will stop a bear or mountain lion that wants to kill me.

When it comes to the extremists I feel it's a coin toss. I mean Ghandi and MLK has success when they showed up with nonviolence, but then again racism still persisted it just grew hidden and less obvious. There are still areas where I would not go visit for that reason, don't tempt fate.

I like nonviolence and would love if it always worked. But like any path one walks in life the true measure of a person is how they react when their creed fails them. When the gun lover can't shoot their way out or when the pacifist can't talk their way out. The point is not "what if there is another way" the point is "what if there is no other way".

Depending on your stance will you lay your arms down or take a life?

EDIT: That is what I meant earlier when I said I wouldn't know what to do if there was no nonviolent solution.


Edited by endtimes (07/31/20 11:57 AM)


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855441 - 07/31/20 12:15 PM (3 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Well your point about what if there is a nonviolent solution doesn't get us anywhere. It's just a deflection, a hypothetical "what if" that doesn't answer the response on what you or I would do if we can't find a non violent solution. That is the basis of the question and deflecting is not an answer.



Well, I never claimed that I would have answers to your questions... This is a discussion, not a Q + A. I'm simply responding to your "what if" with another "what if". My intention wasn't to deflect your position, but rather to show you that my "what if" is just as relevant as yours.

When it comes to these more philosophical discussions, I tend not to put forward many solutions. Offering concrete solutions to philosophical problems like whether or not it's justifiable to use violence is extremely difficult, if not impossible. I find that these discussions lead to more questions than they do answers. That doesn't mean it's pointless - I think this has been a really fruitful discussion from all angles, and reading through the thread has given me some new things to think about. Still, I don't think we're any closer to finding an answer of whether or not it's justifiable to use violence - seems like one of those things humans have been debating about since the dawn of philosophy.

Quote:

endtimes said:
I doubt reason will stop a bear or mountain lion that wants to kill me.




Of course not. Hope you never have to be in that situation haha. However, I'll say that there is technology that doesn't involve permanently harming or killing the animal to get out of that situation. Bear Mace is a thing, and it's nonlethal.

Quote:

endtimes said:
When it comes to the extremists I feel it's a coin toss. I mean Ghandi and MLK has success when they showed up with nonviolence, but then again racism still persisted it just grew hidden and less obvious. There are still areas where I would not go visit for that reason, don't tempt fate.




Indeed, racism persisted after MLK and other activists of his time. That said, there has been undeniable progress in civil rights since his time. We can't say that nothing really changed just because racism still exists, and for that reason I think we should always strive to be better, even if we know we'll never be perfect. Furthermore, I would argue that striving for nonviolent resolutions to racism and other forms of human chauvinism is better than settling for violent ones.

Quote:

endtimes said:
When the gun lover can't shoot their way out or when the pacifist can't talk their way out. The point is not "what if there is another way" the point is "what if there is no other way".




I don't think I agree with that. Both of those questions seem equally valid to me, and asking either one of them to yourself in that sort of situation might lead to the same action. You might answer "what if there is another way" with "no, there isn't", and you might answer "what if there is no other way" with "yeah, there isn't" - either of those answers would lead to the same action...

Quote:

endtimes said:
Depending on your stance will you lay your arms down or take a life?



Philosophically, I lay my arms down. In the heat of the moment, I have no idea how I'd actually react - I'm only human, and even the most devout philosopher cannot live without his blood. Thankfully, I've never been in a situation where I had to decide whether or not to take an attackers life to save someone else's life (or my own life). However, if I was thrown into that situation (heaven forbid), it might change my perspective. I keep an open mind about these sorts of things, but from my current vantage point, I choose nonviolence.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26855466 - 07/31/20 12:31 PM (3 days, 7 hours ago)

That sort of what I'm trying to get at.

People here are right, it's easy to speculate from safety. But when truly tested well...Who knows.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26855593 - 07/31/20 01:59 PM (3 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
That sort of what I'm trying to get at.

People here are right, it's easy to speculate from safety. But when truly tested well...Who knows.



To that end, I'd pose this question: how do you know when you're being truly tested? Where we draw the line between a situation that absolutely requires lethal intervention and one that might have some other possibility seems like it might vary from person to person based off their experience, right? I think the idea that there is some line that gets crossed and that this line is the same for everyone is suspect.


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26855615 - 07/31/20 02:15 PM (3 days, 5 hours ago)

.


--------------------
The actuality of all experience is like a dream
and in its momentary groundless gleaming,
undeniably perceptible, it is uncrystallizing light-form,
a deceitful flash, a diaphanous form of emptiness.
Yet delving deeply we find neither truth nor falsehood,
for neither present nor absent, it is beyond all conception;
we know it like the sky, inexpressible, unimaginable,
fundamentally ever fresh and pristine.


Edited by The Blind Ass (07/31/20 02:47 PM)


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