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Offlineendtimes
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Registered: 06/15/20
Posts: 62
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26853978 - 07/30/20 06:38 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

Not at all. I just don't feel it's my place to judge who gets to live or die.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853985 - 07/30/20 06:43 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.




I see the attackers and supposed "enemies" as people too, no less worthy of life than any other human. I've had partners before in case you are wondering, but my stance still stands.

Also it's a little harsh to say someone is a nihilist or has no compass just because they don't weigh one life over another.



Well maybe it is that you aren't able to defend your values for some reason then. So if you value your partner or your child for example, or yourself, then you would defend from an attacker. My point is that what is valuable to a person is shown through action. So if your child's life was no more valuable than that of an evil person willing to harm then you would do nothing. Hence why I thought you might be one because nothing matters.
The example of a loved one is a good way to examine this but I would say that the way you value yourself and your values (non violence for example) can be extended to how you value others. Ie. You treat others as you wish you were treated. But the love for others can be stronger than for oneself. So if you would not defend a person you love then God help you.


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OfflineMarmie
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853991 - 07/30/20 06:45 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

Jst poke em in the eyes then kick em in the dick


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26854044 - 07/30/20 07:16 PM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.




I see the attackers and supposed "enemies" as people too, no less worthy of life than any other human. I've had partners before in case you are wondering, but my stance still stands.

Also it's a little harsh to say someone is a nihilist or has no compass just because they don't weigh one life over another.



Well maybe it is that you aren't able to defend your values for some reason then. So if you value your partner or your child for example, or yourself, then you would defend from an attacker. My point is that what is valuable to a person is shown through action. So if your child's life was no more valuable than that of an evil person willing to harm then you would do nothing. Hence why I thought you might be one because nothing matters.
The example of a loved one is a good way to examine this but I would say that the way you value yourself and your values (non violence for example) can be extended to how you value others. Ie. You treat others as you wish you were treated. But the love for others can be stronger than for oneself. So if you would not defend a person you love then God help you.




Its that I believe that all people have equal value, and that I know just how awry such a sentiment of protecting what you deem good can go. Even your very words, evil. To me evil is something on television that makes people feel better when it goes away. But in life evil is more like someone who doesn't see things your way or lives as you do, and History can attest to such.

I can defend my values, in a sense. But my values are a little different. It's like that saying "all lives matter", only this time it's not an ill conceived rebuttal to a serious social issue.

I do treat others as I wish to, by not inflicting pain or death upon them.

EDIT: I'd like to add that Buddhism influenced this a lot and made me try to aspire to equanimity as well as detachment. I don't feel it right to judge someone worthy of death or harm.


Edited by endtimes (07/30/20 07:32 PM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854128 - 07/30/20 08:00 PM (9 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Not at all. I just don't feel it's my place to judge who gets to live or die.




You'd get up on the roof during a rainstorm to plug the leaks but won't fight to protect the lives of your wife, kid and yourself?


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26854138 - 07/30/20 08:10 PM (9 days, 1 hour ago)

I wouldn’t have a wife and kid, not my thing


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Onlinespirit_shadow
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854200 - 07/30/20 08:49 PM (9 days, 1 hour ago)

I dont judge but good thing there are people like me and asante and hopefully, if you are ever in such a situation, someone like us will be around to kill/harm for you :shrug:


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854261 - 07/30/20 09:25 PM (9 days, 44 minutes ago)

You guys have some convincing arguments. You're talking me into buying some guns. I'm especially swayed by the argument that someone who tries to kill me may try to kill again, that's a damn good argument.

I'm just having trouble deciding what revolver I want to get, the 686, 629, or 642. Decisions decisions.


Edited by nooneman (07/30/20 09:27 PM)


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InvisibleSpicemaster
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: 1234go]
    #26854263 - 07/30/20 09:27 PM (9 days, 42 minutes ago)

Quote:

1234go said:
I get puppet vibes...



:highfive:


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854295 - 07/30/20 09:47 PM (9 days, 22 minutes ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
I dont judge but good thing there are people like me and asante and hopefully, if you are ever in such a situation, someone like us will be around to kill/harm for you :shrug:




For me I would not consider that a good thing, more just a way for violence to be justified and therefor continuing.

But then I have the issue of allowing those who would kill and do so again to harm such people who won't return with force and by that way such acts will continue.

I find myself between a rock and a hard place at that point then. Damned if you do and don't and all that.


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Onlinespirit_shadow
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854326 - 07/30/20 10:11 PM (8 days, 23 hours ago)

It's not continuing violence. If it really is a matter of life and death then it is no longer a choice. It is an obligation.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854372 - 07/30/20 10:43 PM (8 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
It's not continuing violence. If it really is a matter of life and death then it is no longer a choice. It is an obligation.



Explain.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854421 - 07/30/20 11:15 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

Also I'd like to make an addendum to my last post.

The only creature on this planet that I would defend fiercely is my little Dachshund Red. If someone tried to meet him with harm I would definitely retaliate, with blood if I must.

So I guess my stance is not entirely unbreakable, my heart is not stone.


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Offlineyeah
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854427 - 07/30/20 11:17 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

Modern society is not very accommodating to self defense. People who take the initiative to learn the arts of unarmed combat are unfairly held to an unrealistic standard of restraint.

It's best to just avoid dangerous situations as much as possible.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: yeah] * 1
    #26854437 - 07/30/20 11:26 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
Modern society is not very accommodating to self defense. People who take the initiative to learn the arts of unarmed combat are unfairly held to an unrealistic standard of restraint.

It's best to just avoid dangerous situations as much as possible.




Well even (actual) martial arts instructors suggest the same, to not actively look for trouble. But if it does find you then be ready and also to run when outnumbered.

The movies lie when they present a single trained expert against the mob, in reality the mob wins. No real trainer will tell you to stay and fight as that would be suicide.

Restraint is good as often one can get carried away, but even temperance must know when to end itself.

Also the point about a person who killed and will kill again has me rethinking my stance. It would be very hypocritical of me to preach nonviolence while letting someone commit wanton slaughter.

The only way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.


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OfflineMrBlueYoMind
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854443 - 07/30/20 11:29 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.




You sound brainwashed or kind of conceited.

First off, the fact that you are alive means you put your own life above the lives of the plants and animals you eat.  It's just a fact.  Their life ends so yours continues.  Even vegetarian farming practices require killing animals to keep them from eating the crop.

The idea that you wouldn't defend your family from attackers sounds like someone who doesn't care about their family as much as they care about their self-perception.  Sounds like ego games.  "The people trying to kill the people I care about are all equal so I'd rather let them kill my family so that I can maintain my self-perception as more moral than those who commit violence against people actively hurting people."  :meff:

Ego games innit?


You're such a good person, that spreading love to a significant other and then reproduce or adopt a child and teach it in your ways of goodness so that future generations of people can know goodness is just not your thing.  And if you saw someone raping someone, you wouldn't do anything because your morals dictate that all people are equal value?  But if someone messes with your dog, well then you're John Wick???? 


Edited by MrBlueYoMind (07/30/20 11:45 PM)


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: MrBlueYoMind] * 1
    #26854469 - 07/30/20 11:44 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

That seems rather accurate. You have a point that this seems like a part of me wanting to be above "the rabble" who can't use words to tone down a fight. It is ego in the end, some vain attempt to look good.

Truthfully I often run scenarios in my head about what to do if someone came into my house and how to go about things. How to render them incapacitated. I'm not sure I'd go as far to learn a gun, the last thing this world needs is more guns. But a knife I can get behind.

I haven't bee truly tested yet and I vehemently hope I never end up being so. But I have to concede to everyone else on here, when push comes to shove it's either you or them.


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Offlineyeah
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26854477 - 07/30/20 11:49 PM (8 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
That seems rather accurate. You have a point that this seems like a part of me wanting to be above "the rabble" who can't use words to tone down a fight. It is ego in the end, some vain attempt to look good.

Truthfully I often run scenarios in my head about what to do if someone came into my house and how to go about things. How to render them incapacitated. I'm not sure I'd go as far to learn a gun, the last thing this world needs is more guns. But a knife I can get behind.

I haven't bee truly tested yet and I vehemently hope I never end up being so. But I have to concede to everyone else on here, when push comes to shove it's either you or them.






--------------------


Edited by yeah (07/30/20 11:49 PM)


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26854567 - 07/31/20 12:47 AM (8 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Alright, I'll bite.

I'm a big believer in nonviolence, and I believe in not using violence even in self defense, and I don't want to argue against nonviolence. Especially during protests, it's totally backwards to use violence to defend yourself against violence during a protest. The whole point of a protest is to have people commit violence against you and to respond to that violence nonviolently. So if you respond to violence during a protest using violence, you undermine the whole point and message of the protest.

MLK Jr at one time owned a gun, and when he converted to nonviolence, he got rid of it. He was determined not to use violence even in self defense even outside of protests. I admire that a lot, and I wish that I was strong enough to go that route myself. Sometimes I think I am strong enough to be able to do that.

But other times I'm weak, and I think "I don't want some crazy extremist asshole taking me out." Lately, I've even been thinking about buying a S&W 686 to carry around for self defense. This is gonna sound crazy, but one thing that really influences me is Russia killing people in other countries. If they tried that with me (not that they ever would, but still), I'd like to be able to respond to the attacker with a 686.

But make no mistakes, this is weakness on my part. I'd like to be able to follow the philosophy of nonviolence all the way down the wire like MLK Jr did, but I'm just don't think I'm strong enough to do that. And it's shameful to admit that, but there it is.

Well, so far I don't own any guns, but I've been thinking about it a lot lately: a shotgun for the home, a revolver for going out, and a rifle for hiking. We'll see if I can resist the temptation or not. Again, I'd like to be able to stick to nonviolence, but I just don't know if I'm strong enough to do that.

Anyway, I admire nonviolence a lot, and I really don't want to argue against it. I think it is morally superior to violence even in self defense. Me being tempted by violence is weakness on my part.



I think this is a really mature post, and it resonates with me greatly. I'm generally a nonviolent person, and I think that MLK Jr's decision to get rid of his gun is accurately described as "strength".

I also think a lot of what you're saying (and everything I said in my previous post) applies to the hypothetical situation others are bringing up where it's not yourself you're defending, but other people. To that end, I'd make the point (similar to one I made in my previous post) that violence might not necessarily neutralize a situation where someone is attacking someone you love, so you might as well use some other method. For any hypothetical situation you could come up with where a gun would save my lover's life (or my child's life) from an attacker, I can come up with another hypothetical situation in which that same gun wouldn't be enough to save anyone from an attacker. Seeing that this is the case, why not just opt for a nonlethal method? The problem isn't the decision of whether or not you should defend someone by use of violent force - the problem is that violence exists in the first place, and I think it's critical that we address why that is, and to question our assumption (if it exists) that violence is just some innate property of being human.

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
I dont judge but good thing there are people like me and asante and hopefully, if you are ever in such a situation, someone like us will be around to kill/harm for you



I'm not going to judge you, either, but if you killed an attacker to save my life, I wouldn't be thanking you specifically for using violence. Don't get me wrong, in that situation I would be infinitely grateful that you saved my life, but I wouldn't be grateful specifically for the violence. To clarify: I would be just as grateful for some hero who used nonviolent / nonlethal methods of intervention to save my life - the only difference between those two hypothetical scenarios is that one of them ends with a dead body and the other one doesn't. So, again, I think it comes down to the question of: why not just opt for a nonlethal method?


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Offlineichugwindex
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26854577 - 07/31/20 12:57 AM (8 days, 21 hours ago)

Since the "incident" recently it's on them. I'll blast if I have to like any other american


--------------------
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