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Invisiblepur3bind
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26853430 - 07/30/20 02:15 PM (9 days, 8 hours ago)

Like I understand being a cop is an excessively difficult job to do. No doubt about that. But every situation has it's focal point. And everyone who is responsible is responsible, peroid. But, people that want to hurt or harm you because they've been caught in a cycle in life for so long that they easily target you because your surreal to their reality, I feel bad for people in that circumstance. But thats it. Its a jealousy thing and it stems from (possibly) ancient patterns of mind.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26853486 - 07/30/20 02:47 PM (9 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

larry.fisherman said:
It is possible to defend oneself without intentional or excessive force.





No doubt, man. When I was a social worker, I had to learn how to restrain a 300 pound man without doing any long-lasting damage, and I only weigh about 130. I believe there is almost always a non-lethal (dare I even say non-violent) solution to any given problem.

Besides, when it comes to owning a gun, a knife, or any kind of lethal weapon, I don't know how much safer that's actually going to make me anyway. I could always find myself up against a better marksman, or a guy who brought a gun to a knife fight, or a guy who attacks with a group, or a guy who has the element of surprise. Sure, a gun might save my life in some situations, but for every situation I can imagine where a gun saves my life, I can imagine another one where it doesn't. In the end, I'd rather just not own one because it seems like a lot of additional responsibility that I don't need to shoulder. This is life, man. It's a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate. Ain't nobody getting outta this shit alive.




I wouldn't call life a disease per se, that seems a little strong. But I can somewhat agree with that sentiment about responsibility. Having fired one I don't see myself owning one in the future.

Though I am surprised by some responses on a psychedelic forum, I thought most people on here would be against violence like me.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853495 - 07/30/20 02:49 PM (9 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.



I doubt this is the way you would react in actual life threatening danger, but maybe it is. That is a very sad place to be for yourself though.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853522 - 07/30/20 02:58 PM (9 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
Though I am surprised by some responses on a psychedelic forum, I thought most people on here would be against violence like me.




Doesn't really work like that, psychedelics don't give everyone who takes them a common belief system. The realizations you come to while tripping are not contained in the drug, they come from within.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853622 - 07/30/20 03:43 PM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
I wouldn't call life a disease per se, that seems a little strong.




Yeah, don't worry, that was purely a joke. My point was just that nobody's getting out of this thing, whatever it is, alive.

Quote:

endtimes said:
But I can somewhat agree with that sentiment about responsibility. Having fired one I don't see myself owning one in the future.




I've also fired one before, and I just don't need to own one. I've had a lot of people personally advise me to get a gun for self defense, and I've earnestly listened to their arguments (always try to keep an open mind). What it always seems to boil down to is the idea that there is violence in the world, whether we like it or not (I agree, though I don't necessarily think that has to be the case), and that if someone is going to attack me and kill me or someone I care about, I might as well put up a fight. That sentiment doesn't resonate with me at all. I'll let others do the fighting, if that's what they're gonna do. Some people might call me a pussy, which I would never take personally - anyone who calls me weak or unmanly because I don't want to fight anyone is clearly projecting their own insecurity about masculinity onto me.

I'm kinda rambling now, but the most important point I'm trying to get across is that I don't need a gun to make me feel secure. I already accept that death will come one way or another (indeed, death might be one of the only things we can be sure of in life), and I just don't want to bring another gun owner into the world, if I can avoid it. I'd rather plant a garden or something, or cultivate mushrooms :mushroom2: Seems like a much more fulfilling use of my resources.

Quote:

endtimes said:
Though I am surprised by some responses on a psychedelic forum, I thought most people on here would be against violence like me.



When I started taking psychedelics, I started to feel more connected to the ecosystem of the earth, which made me care more about climate change and human impact on the environment. I also have had several ego-dissolving experiences, where the boundaries between myself and others seemed to dissolve. Some experiences I've had have underlined the fact that we all share common ancestors and that we're all made of the same chemicals found all over the universe. These experiences increased my compassion for other people, making me think more about the consequences of my actions (it also shifted my political views), and it made me more aware of social justice issues (I know that word can be kind of cringe these days, but I don't know how else to put it). Racism, sexism, xenophobia: these issues suddenly became more important to me because I wanted to be a more compassionate person.

For a while, I assumed that everyone had this sort of reaction to psychedelics, but that was a naïve assumption to make. All sorts of people take psychedelics, and the experiences they produce will vary widely from person to person. Indeed, you will find forum members from all corners of the political spectrum. You will also find anti-semites and racists - sadly, you can find people like that pretty much everywhere on the Internet.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26853632 - 07/30/20 03:48 PM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

Well at the beginning I would have gone along with that, having no problem meeting violence on those who would harm me.

But as I read more and got older that didn't seem simple. From Einstein to Buddha I began to question violence and self defense. Buddhism has a rather extreme view on it, or a least the stance I saw where it is recommended you die rather than harm someone to defend a self that doesn't exist. Other stances seem to suggest not starting anything or if it does start then to incapacitate only.

But knowing what pain feels like and thinking about inflicting that to other people, I don't know man it just feels wrong. I play violent video games but I know the enemies I face are digital, it's not the same with real people. Hearing someone scream from pain in a game gives me some pause, so I can think what it might be with another person who exists and feels pain.

I get where you guys are coming from, truly. I just feel like I don't have it in me to harm another person for real. Yes that includes the racist and homophobic idiots out there.

EDIT: Didn't see the second post. Personally I felt connected to the planet growing up. Studying the Food Web as a kid and watching tons of nature documentaries. Plus some of the shows growing up tended to advocate violence as a last resort rather than first one like Avatar the Last Airbender and many others. Being exposed to Buddhism really opened my thoughts about the lives of others and other animals as well, though sometimes I wonder if I am projecting human feelings onto animals. But that's when I started to catch bugs in my jar instead of outright zapping them. It was when I was a kid that I realized that states and countries are just lines on a map and tried to tell everyone else that but got shot down. Soon I began to guard my heart as I saw how few people seemed to care about things around them and instead get wrapped up in divisions. I found it harder to reason with people into a middle ground. It honestly hurts to live in our current world and sometimes I wish I could be a psychopath and just not have empathy rather than this slightly over active one.


Edited by endtimes (07/30/20 03:55 PM)


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853689 - 07/30/20 04:13 PM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

What about defending another person unable to defend themselves?


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi]
    #26853764 - 07/30/20 04:32 PM (9 days, 5 hours ago)

I don’t have an answer for that if I’m honest, I’m not some hero of justice


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853775 - 07/30/20 04:36 PM (9 days, 5 hours ago)

Let's say it was your significant other or child, hypothetically.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: psi]
    #26853803 - 07/30/20 04:54 PM (9 days, 5 hours ago)

It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.


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Onlinespirit_shadow
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853808 - 07/30/20 04:59 PM (9 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
I don’t think I’ll be able to. Not because I physically can’t but because I would rather die than have to seriously injure or even kill another just to keep living. I might survive the encounter but the guilt would be a weight I would carry with me.





I'll deal with the guilt after I stomp him into the cracks of the pavement.

I have struggled too hard throughout my life to let some asshole take it away.

I'm 375 lbs, I'm not going to run away.




Here's 13 martial arts "Masters" getting destroyed by fighters taking them up on their bluff.





I wish I could plus million this post. I have one fucking goal(to be happy with the one person I love), and I have been shit on too much to let someone kill me before I reach my goal. No, I doubt I would even feel any guilt in that scenereo at all.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26853835 - 07/30/20 05:16 PM (9 days, 5 hours ago)

I think the moment someone glasses you in a pub and starts punching you that you disconnect from Einstein and the Buddha and that your inner ape would take over from that.


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: Asante]
    #26853845 - 07/30/20 05:21 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Then I would say you severely underestimate me. I’ve been slapped, punched, and called everything in the book. I still don’t meet out judgment in return. I have a policy that revenge is wasted effort as it won’t make you feel better


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853876 - 07/30/20 05:34 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes] * 1
    #26853895 - 07/30/20 05:45 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Alright, I'll bite.

I'm a big believer in nonviolence, and I believe in not using violence even in self defense, and I don't want to argue against nonviolence. Especially during protests, it's totally backwards to use violence to defend yourself against violence during a protest. The whole point of a protest is to have people commit violence against you and to respond to that violence nonviolently. So if you respond to violence during a protest using violence, you undermine the whole point and message of the protest.

MLK Jr at one time owned a gun, and when he converted to nonviolence, he got rid of it. He was determined not to use violence even in self defense even outside of protests. I admire that a lot, and I wish that I was strong enough to go that route myself. Sometimes I think I am strong enough to be able to do that.

But other times I'm weak, and I think "I don't want some crazy extremist asshole taking me out." Lately, I've even been thinking about buying a S&W 686 to carry around for self defense. This is gonna sound crazy, but one thing that really influences me is Russia killing people in other countries. If they tried that with me (not that they ever would, but still), I'd like to be able to respond to the attacker with a 686.

But make no mistakes, this is weakness on my part. I'd like to be able to follow the philosophy of nonviolence all the way down the wire like MLK Jr did, but I'm just don't think I'm strong enough to do that. And it's shameful to admit that, but there it is.

Well, so far I don't own any guns, but I've been thinking about it a lot lately: a shotgun for the home, a revolver for going out, and a rifle for hiking. We'll see if I can resist the temptation or not. Again, I'd like to be able to stick to nonviolence, but I just don't know if I'm strong enough to do that.

Anyway, I admire nonviolence a lot, and I really don't want to argue against it. I think it is morally superior to violence even in self defense. Me being tempted by violence is weakness on my part.


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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: deucedbi9]
    #26853918 - 07/30/20 05:57 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

deucedbi9 said:

Especially when wading kneedeep in bullshit, eh.




I get that you're just trying to make it clear that you have no respect for people who you disagree with, but you could have said it like I just did, and looked articulate, instead of just juvenile and bitter... but you know, talking about God on this site usually doesn't elicit this type of response so I'm really shocked, and may never pray again :rolleyes:


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Offlineendtimes
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26853944 - 07/30/20 06:12 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.



Sounds like you have no values when it comes to people. No moral compass of right or wrong and you are either a nihilist or something along the lines of a moral relativist and other nonsense. Just my opinion. But I will say that maybe if you had a child or a partner that you loved more than yourself, you would defend them.




I see the attackers and supposed "enemies" as people too, no less worthy of life than any other human. I've had partners before in case you are wondering, but my stance still stands.

Also it's a little harsh to say someone is a nihilist or has no compass just because they don't weigh one life over another.


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Invisible1234go
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853950 - 07/30/20 06:17 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

It sounds like you've given up on life...


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853951 - 07/30/20 06:17 PM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

I don't disagree with your position, but personally, I have no problem saying my life is worth more than someone who is trying to take mine. I also think about the fact that I only plan to kill an attacker, while an attacker that kills me may kill again and again. I feel a moral obligation to protect more than just myself and my family, so if someone appears to be trying to kill me, I would use an amount of force the attack necessitated to defend myself.

If I didn't start it, I'm not responsible for the outcome.


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Invisiblepsi
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Re: When it comes to defending yourself [Re: endtimes]
    #26853976 - 07/30/20 06:34 PM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

endtimes said:
It would be a hard choice for me. In either case harm would be inflicted upon someone but I also don’t want to be in the position of deeming one life worth more than another.

I would like I say I wouldn’t harm whoever was hurting them but then I would be allowing harm to come to someone else and be indirectly responsible (at least according to current society norms, though objectively I would not).

That’s why I don’t have an answer, that the most I can say is that I hope I don’t have to choose. Mostly because I wouldn’t be able to, I can’t say one mans life is worth more than any other, even my loved ones.





I hope I don't have to face that choice either. But I would not rule out potentially lethal action if all other alternatives are exhausted in stopping someone from committing a sufficiently reprehensible act (murder, rape, maiming etc). I don't take the prospect lightly though. I once saw someone shot a short distance away from me, and that will be with me for life.


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