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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions
    #26849213 - 07/28/20 03:29 AM (18 days, 5 hours ago)

DividedQuantum 3 of your recent questions [listed below] seem to have some similarity, and you may find the thoughts of Stephen Jenkinson, who has given years of consideration, to the current ( although pre-covid, but not pre global warming) situation, deeper than what we have touched on so far. I wonder what thoughts and feelings it may stimulate, I know I will listen to it again, and perhaps study Jenkinson’s published ideas.

1) ’On what grounds is civilization a better way of life than a state of nature?’

2) ’Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated?’

3) ’So what would you say? Is there an alternative in today’s world? Even the more socialist societies of Europe are essentially capitalist, although I would say in a much more civilized way. Is their model a good one?’



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: laughingdog]
    #26849481 - 07/28/20 08:43 AM (18 days, 3 minutes ago)

Could you give a summary of the salient points of his philosophy? I don't know when I'll be able to get around to watching the whole video.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26849818 - 07/28/20 12:14 PM (17 days, 20 hours ago)

Quite possibly it is simply not to your 'taste'.

anyway here is the Time-coded list of topics: 

00:18  Preview followed by introduction to Jenkinson 
05:29 MD (Michael Dowd) - story of attending Jenkinson talk ten years before.  07:07 BC (Barbara Cecll) Q - your experience in the "death trade" and how that informs these times 
07:32 SJ (Stephen Jenkinson) - recounts lack of civilizational wisdom in basics of death at existential level, despite highest tech
10:53 SJ - how lack of wisdom in individual death manifests regarding societal death, including unwillingness to "face what's coming" (both "tragic and truant")  14:42 SJ - how an "insane idea" is at the root of our inability to face what's coming; e.g., looking to more technology to solve the problems caused by technology. "Subway" story.
17:21 SJ - human-centered perception and assumptions are pervasive in this culture (and how that manifests in lack of attention and action to climate warming) 
21:22 SJ - Interpreting "7th generation" dictum: "There is a way to do this (so that we don't just feel bad all the time) and it's to put yourself in the middle of something and not at the beginning. Rather than seeing yourself at the beginning of 7 subsequent generations — as if you were a kind of moral architect of the world in time to come — you could understand yourself as standing in the midst of 14 generations. ...  My obligation is to carry myself as if I'm the consequence (unintended or otherwise) of the way life has been lived until now. It's only my ability to see myself that way that gives me the capacity to govern myself differently and understand my fundamental rsponsibility will be to people I'll never meet....” 
24:01 SJ - Civilizational death is not the same as naturalness of individual death, because "death of this civilization is suicidal." "Endings, limits, frailties ... are enormously important practices." "Real mercy" in seeing endings in others before we have to deal with our own, so that we "come to these things not as a rookie but as an informed observer." We are in a kind of "living arrangement that is properly finding its ending." "The greater act is not sabotage but seeing down what you have been trying to restore and to love.”
33:08 SJ - reflects on history of fall of previous civilizations (how peoples forget fragility of their expanding ways of life and population in their homeplace). Need to "reimagine what loving this place could look like now. ... write a love letter to this place, which is a love letter of farewell." A conscious choice to "stop being so successful." The "willingness to accept the possibility of catastrophe needs to inform how a group proceeds.” 
38:04 MD - Edward Goldsmith book "The Way" for distinguishing sustainable cultures: life-centered measures of well-being.
39:55 SJ - Key for a culture is "Where do they place humanity in the story?" Crucial to see ourselves as "dependent — not a co-conspirator, not mandatory." "We are the beneficiary [of other life forms], not the benefactor.” 
43:50 BC Q  - elderhood question and your "farewell letter”
44:39 SJ - "a love letter of fare well: wishing goodness upon that which you are leaving." "Your real good fortune is having come to your collective senses and decided to depart." "To belong, but also primary purpose and station in life." "Longing, not desire." "involuntary gratitude" arises. 
51:00 SJ -  "As long as the place lasts, your way of life remains comendable." Summarizes his message as aiming for "soul-stirring but not reassuring.... the animating force is grief." "What is it about daily life that makes living seem so impossible? ... How about imagining our children to be entitled to much less than we had when we were their age?” 
54:10 SJ - "Two questions to expect young people to ask us: (1) When you were my age, did you know what was happening? (2) So what did you do?"  57:38 SJ - When he was young, "the sense of possibility was palpable, personally" and also "a sense that large things could be taken on." In contrast today, "there's not even a shred of that understanding available today to people in their 20s. And their sense of betrayal by a generation who sought principally self-expression, self-healing, self-understanding, self-aggrandizement is unspeakable." ... [Speaking to his generation]: "If you do not begin with the poverties that are the current order, then solutions just carry the germ of what generated the poverties in the first place."  The audio version of this video is available through Soundcloud here:
https://soundcloud.com/michael-dowd-g... • Jenkinson's website, Orphan Wisdom:
https://orphanwisdom.com/ • 10 minute audio of his presentation at Simon Fraser University, Canada:
https://soundcloud.com/orphan-wisdom/...


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


Edited by laughingdog (07/28/20 04:59 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26850303 - 07/28/20 05:08 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

I liked the video, thanks for sharing.

These are just some thoughts I had, using Jenkinson’s video as a prompt.

  • The modern civilized, particularly Americans, have an overwhelming reliance on expertise – no one really understands the first thing about the technological nature of the society in which we are all immersed. We go around carefree (not so much recently) but 99% of us cannot even say how our houses work. Our smartphones work almost as if by magic. It is a very peculiar situation.

  • There are no “legions of people facing what’s coming,” as Jenkinson says. People don’t even “know” they’re going to die, in a psychological sense, they confront it so seldom – essentially never. Modern civilization prevents us from ever having to face death, so almost everybody doesn’t, on their own. This also applies macroscopically, as our civilization and the world are basically dying, which most worldwide do not acknowledge or consider.

  • He points out that we can blame the rich all we want, but at the root of all this madness is a cultural idea, a meme, which everybody buys into, rich, middle and poor alike, which we got into a bit in my “civilization vs. state of nature” thread. Essentially this idea is that if we exert just a little more control, we’ll get there. If we spend just a little more money, develop a little more technology, have a few more babies, institute a few more programs, we’ll finally get over the hump. It seems, at least on my reading of history, that our culture has been saying this for thousands of years.

  • We clearly can’t get our shit together on climate change. And to me, this highlights what has always been a human propensity: not planning, or not planning effectively, for the future. Human society, with only a few exceptions, is not equipped to deal with future possibilities that are amorphous and unfocused and not happening right now or very soon. We don’t plan well, and when we do plan, we don’t stick to it. Both climate change, and also the water crisis, are of a nature such that we needed to start planning for them decades ago, and we’ll likely not do anything effortful for many years to come. I.e., well after it’s too late.


These points are in my own language, but I owe Mr. Jenkinson a debt of gratitude for the thoughts he provoked.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26850919 - 07/28/20 11:09 PM (17 days, 9 hours ago)

Yes thought provoking stuff
thank you for your analysis.
There are more such videos at
https://www.youtube.com/user/thegreatstory/videos
I watched the one with Paul Chefurka,
which I enjoyed, although he seems to take it all more personally than I do,
and I see no need for the expression of any theistic sentiments.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: laughingdog]
    #26851376 - 07/29/20 08:30 AM (17 days, 16 minutes ago)

Theistic sentiments are crucial however in matters of karma. But perhaps the argument that attempts to leverage a moral perspective with an association of karma can be viewed as a technique of argument that attempts to appeal to an opponent's position without subscribing to the idea oneself.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: laughingdog]
    #26851438 - 07/29/20 09:18 AM (16 days, 23 hours ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851472 - 07/29/20 09:52 AM (16 days, 22 hours ago)

The position of 'Ends Justifies the Means' sanctions methods of coercion in the name of progress that may be irresponsible in the view of karma.

Of course the gods themselves may be unconcerned and forgiving of thee


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Play a Game with God


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26851690 - 07/29/20 12:12 PM (16 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Theistic sentiments are crucial however in matters of karma...




Sounds like you want to argue with me or prove a point with a dogmatic statement.

1) I expressed a preference, not a position I propose to defend.

2A) dogmatic or unsupported statements (other than this one :smile: ) prove nothing,

2B) dogmatic or unsupported statements  prove nothing, as anyone can claim anything. By adding "as anyone can claim anything" I have provided some reasoning so that the statement is no longer dogmatic.

3) this thread has nothing to do with karma,  'ends justifying  means', or ethical theory  - if that interests you, you may start your own thread on such subjects anytime you like.

4) It is doubtful you watched either the first video, which is the actual main subject of the thread, or the Paul Chefurka, video, about which I stated a preference.

5) I hope you have fun with your own new thread.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: laughingdog]
    #26852249 - 07/29/20 04:36 PM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Theistic sentiments are crucial however in matters of karma...




Sounds like you want to argue with me or prove a point with a dogmatic statement.




Well it is incontrovertibly true that you have used karma as leverage:

Quote:

laughingdog said:

.    In other words anyone eating meat, but not organically & pasture raised animals, is supporting torture, whether they know it or not, and just like industrial pollution shortening the lives of thousands of people with dangerous smog in many of the worlds big mega cities - it turns out there is a karmic and moral penalty to be paid for human cruelty.
.    To compare this to city life and classrooms is really just contributing to the denial and sugar coating of reality, that has caused much of human folly...




Having testified of karmic consequence does support an appearance that you believe it, thus my conjecture on a debaters insincerity and raises the question whether you do in fact think the ends justify the means and prefer to omit theism and karma thereby.


--------------------
Play a Game with God


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26855113 - 07/31/20 08:59 AM (14 days, 23 hours ago)

is that a garbled way of saying that
by following theism of some kind, there is an implication of  karma-guided conduct which avoids eating meat; while eating meat implies karmic ignorance and agnosticism or atheism.


I always thought karma was our inner justice system, conveniently arranged so that: if guilty, you don't really enjoy the money you stole from people you killed; and if not guilty, you really enjoy your time even if crippled, poor, divorced and/or poor.

for me karma is just action and reaction in the context of a person's sense of right and wrong.


--------------------


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: 3 recent (non-covid) questions [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26855190 - 07/31/20 09:55 AM (14 days, 22 hours ago)

Garbled? That would depend on your language skills.


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