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OfflineVylie
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The right time to harvest
    #26848787 - 07/27/20 08:41 PM (18 days, 11 hours ago)

If you were an alien praying mantis robot, would you harvest humanity now, or would you wait a bit more, or is it already late?


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26848794 - 07/27/20 08:45 PM (18 days, 11 hours ago)



We’re ready.


--------------------
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26849215 - 07/28/20 03:31 AM (18 days, 4 hours ago)

Depending on your 'worldview' you might sacrifice everything for the benefit of your team or you might cultivate variety as a means of further avenues of distraction. Aliens prefer the latter because they do not have the human ego impulse.


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26849244 - 07/28/20 04:28 AM (18 days, 3 hours ago)

Genesis 9:7

"And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; swarm in the earth, and multiply therein."

Why would God say that?

Why would God need people in the first place?

The God people who read the Bible believe in doesn’t need people. Okay, but why not create a few people for fun?

A hundred would be enough. Well, two people would be enough. (Or two too many). But let's say there is a hundred. You can still remember almost everyone’s name, most of the time.

Eight billion makes little sense. At least, it does in the God-human relationship context.

Is there a context where it makes more? Let me think. What do I say when I grew mushrooms? I tell them, "Multiply, populate the substrate, be fruitful!"

Sounds familiar? Why do I say it?

Because I want to eat them.


Edited by Vylie (07/28/20 04:36 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26849246 - 07/28/20 04:31 AM (18 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
We’re ready.




She looks beautiful, hungry, and intelligent.

That’s a scary combination.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26849252 - 07/28/20 04:46 AM (18 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Genesis 9:7

"And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; swarm in the earth, and multiply therein."

Why would God say that?

Why would God need people in the first place?

The God people who read the Bible believe in doesn’t need people. Okay, but why not create a few people for fun?

A hundred would be enough. Well, two people would be enough. (Or two too many). But let's say there is a hundred. You can still remember almost everyone’s name, most of the time.

Eight billion makes little sense. At least, it does in the God-human relationship context.

Is there a context where it makes more? Let me think. What do I say when I grew mushrooms? I tell them, "Multiply, populate the substrate, be fruitful!"

Sounds familiar? Why do I say it?

Oh yeah. I say it because I want to eat them.




In God's cultivation of variety should I be surprised at reruns of David vs. a brood of vipers because God is not human and people are selfish?


Edited by Buster_Brown (07/28/20 05:03 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26849265 - 07/28/20 05:08 AM (18 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
In God's cultivation of variety should I be surprised at reruns of David vs. a brood of vipers?




There won’t be reruns. One time in this world is more than enough.

Those who are funny or interesting should stop being addicted to oxygen as they might be brought back into existence in a reality without air.


Edited by Vylie (07/28/20 05:16 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26849271 - 07/28/20 05:19 AM (18 days, 2 hours ago)

I don't know the point of having the Hadron Collider if the origins of the Universe are evidenced daily.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26849275 - 07/28/20 05:22 AM (18 days, 2 hours ago)

Would the host ever have the intelligence to realise?
Would the controller ever let the host know?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: pineninja]
    #26849285 - 07/28/20 05:32 AM (18 days, 2 hours ago)

the mantids don't know any better than us

harvest this!


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26849287 - 07/28/20 05:35 AM (18 days, 2 hours ago)

Whos scoring?


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26849305 - 07/28/20 06:09 AM (18 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
I don’t know the point of having the Hadron Collider if the origins of the Universe are evidenced daily.




There is no point in it. I’m not sure anymore that it exists in the first place. It seems absurd that there would be eight billion people in this reality, including thousands of scientists if we consider:

1. Based on the relativity theory, the energy of light should be either zero or not calculable.

If the photon at rest has no mass, then its kinetic energy at the speed of light is also zero. Then we are talking about something that has no mass and no energy. If its mass at rest is not zero, then it shouldn’t be able to reach the speed of light if the relativity theory were correct.

2. Based on the redshift, the Universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.

Let’s ignore that the idea already violates the conservation of energy. Let’s ignore that the doppler effect wasn’t (couldn’t be) proven for light in a laboratory.

How could the stars move away from us faster than the speed of light?

Oh, wait! They don’t. Science says they don’t move, but the space-time is expanding like the bread on the oven. So cool.

So, if the stars are not moving away from us, then why do they exhibit the redshift?

What kind of expansion is that which doesn’t behave as expansion would (atoms would grow), but it acts like moving would (redshift, atoms don’t grow), yet it’s not moving?

3. Based on the expansion speed of the Universe, many of the stars should appear at nearly the opposite side of the sky compared to where they are, and they should seem to travel backward in time.

If the expansion is faster than the speed of the light, their light would never reach Earth. However, we would catch up with the light these stars emitted in the past. As we would be catch up up the light from an earlier and earlier moment, the supernovas should collapse back into stars.

4. The materialistic explanation of life is against the laws of chemistry.

On a planet that started as a melt rock, the possible chemical reactions already happened. From that point, one would need to put the matter into a higher energy level and make it stay like that. It won’t happen by itself.

From all living creatures on Earth, only the green plants can do that.

Life on Earth couldn’t have started with anything else. And it didn’t start with green plants.

5. The evolution of languages

It’s unreasonable to believe that when most people were farmers or hunters, the languages were born with so many rules and special cases that people today can’t learn in the school. The Chinese language is the best example. Today, people simplify even English.

6. Buddhism

Although there are thousands of schools of Buddhism, we can agree about the essence of its teaching.

I. You don’t exist.
II. Desire is the source of all suffering.

Now tell me, why would Buddha, or anyone who understood Buddhism, teach you Buddhism? Why would a Buddhist talk to you or answer any of your questions? It would reinforce their wrong belief that either they or you exist. Why would they desire such a delusion?

7. AI

It has been proven for decades that algorithmic computers (Turing machines) cannot run general AI (strong AI). Yet Google, Facebook, Elon Musk, and almost everyone talks about the rise of the AI. Do all these people have zero understanding of mathematics and programming?

***

I could go on.

The problem isn’t that science is “wrong,” or it’s “not there yet”.

The fact is that science is fucked up from the core in one hundred percent. It couldn’t be more obvious how silly it is. Yet no one will tell you that “science is completely screwed up. It’s a disaster. But that’s what we have now”.

It would be okay to say it. It’s not what they say.

They say, “we are going somewhere”. And they don’t mean that “somewhere” is in the opposite direction than the answers.

I’m not saying that Einstein and Stephen Hawking were stupid.

They couldn’t be.

Most likely they didn’t exist.


Edited by Vylie (07/28/20 06:18 AM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie] * 1
    #26849593 - 07/28/20 09:50 AM (17 days, 22 hours ago)

If I were a technologically advanced alien I would have no need for harvesting humanity.

I don't believe in God so I perceive such ideas as being of the writer. People want to thrive. More seems better.

As far as I know photons always travel at the speed of light. An expanding universe doesn't violate the conservation of energy, nor do stars move away from an observer at the speed of light even though the universe is apparently expanding faster than the speed of light. Think about drawing two dots close together almost touching on a rubber band. You stretch the band a foot (expansion at X rate of speed). The dots barely moved and did not travel at X rate of speed. No part of the rubber band moved a foot relative to it's neighbors. One may suggest that a single dot on one end of the band did move a foot, but that's only in the context of a medium. The universe may not exist in a medium. It is the medium.

I don't think anyone understands how life actually starts so it's premature to suggest it's against the laws of chemistry.

Language can evolve and devolve.

Buddhism describes the self as an idea. It is just an idea, in the same way the thought of a broom is not a broom. There are actually brooms to be found, but no selves. We seem to exist, but not in the way we think we exist. Form is real but transitory. Nothing permanent or eternal except for principles. Desire can never be completely extinguished, but suffering is neither good nor bad. There are course corrections necessary to produce the most harmony.

Those who want to advance AI are looking for novelty.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26849871 - 07/28/20 12:41 PM (17 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
....Buddhism describes the self as an idea. It is just an idea, in the same way the thought of a broom is not a broom. There are actually brooms to be found, but no selves. We seem to exist, but not in the way we think we exist. Form is real but transitory. Nothing permanent or eternal except for principles. Desire can never be completely extinguished, but suffering is neither good nor bad. .......




Another analogy might be that the way the star constellations appear to us on earth is purely arbitrary. In other places (planets or galaxies) the sky patterns will seem completely different.

The feeling of being a self is as real as any of our other distorted perceptions. We don't see ultraviolet, when someone walks away from us they aren't really getting smaller, etc. Everything we think is real, is a distortion, - nothing is solid.
But buddhism does not take a philosophical position that there is 'no self', that needs to be defended, against other views, rather it speaks of 'non-self', and that; as Rahz says, the problem is that identification arises with the firm conviction that we are, autonomous, unified, separate, and stable. 
Instead all phenomenon, are said to, occur due to endless, inter-related, causes and conditions, and not due to any separate entities anywhere.
A social conventional self that arises in a social context is acknowledged. This is referred to as 'relative truth' in some Buddhist writings.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26849902 - 07/28/20 01:02 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
If I were a technologically advanced alien I would have no need for harvesting humanity.




You could use them as food or you could use their collective consciousness like a computer.

Quote:

Rahz said:
People want to thrive. More seems better.




True.

Quote:

Rahz said:
As far as I know photons always travel at the speed of light.




It doesn’t change the fact the special relativity cannot be applied to them. The theory is based on a hypothesis about light. If it cannot be applied to light, then what can it be applied to?

The constant speed of the light is a hypothesis.

Quote:

Rahz said:
An expanding universe doesn't violate the conservation of energy,




If it expands at the same speed, it violates that law due to the potential energy. It is working against gravity. It should slow down just like you slow down after you jump. If you exceed the escape velocity, you will still slow down.

If it expands at an increasing speed, it also violates that law due to the increasing kinetic energy of the objects.

Quote:

Rahz said:
nor do stars move away from an observer at the speed of light even though the universe is apparently expanding faster than the speed of light. Think about drawing two dots close together almost touching on a rubber band. You stretch the band a foot (expansion at X rate of speed). The dots barely moved and did not travel at X rate of speed. No part of the rubber band moved a foot relative to it's neighbors.




Yes, they moved, compared to the neighbors otherwise it wouldn’t grow. It’s also true about any part of the rubber band (except for the theoretical zero-sized "points") that they grow and change their shape. If you were living in that rubber band, your body would grow.

Quote:

Rahz said:
One may suggest that a single dot on one end of the band did move a foot, but that's only in the context of a medium. The universe may not exist in a medium. It is the medium.




So, if the parts didn’t move compared to each other, then why is there a redshift?

Quote:

Rahz said:
I don't think anyone understands how life actually starts so it's premature to suggest it's against the laws of chemistry.




Just because you don’t understand how something started, you may still know how it didn’t start. If it started in the first place.

Quote:

Rahz said:
Language can evolve and devolve.




This is a general statement. Anyone can say it about anything. "Santa Claus may or may not exist". "It will either happen or not".

Do you have an example of a language getting more complex?

Quote:

Rahz said:
Buddhism describes the self as an idea. It is just an idea, in the same way the thought of a broom is not a broom. There are actually brooms to be found, but no selves. [...] Desire can never be completely extinguished, but suffering is neither good nor bad.




It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".

Quote:

Rahz said:
Those who want to advance AI are looking for novelty.




One has a better chance to advance something if one has a basic understanding of it. Understanding that Turing machines won’t make up an AI provides one with a better shot to create AI (in another way).


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26849920 - 07/28/20 01:14 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
When someone walks away from us they aren't really getting smaller, etc.




How do you know that? If, for example, you are living in a simulation, you are alone, and everything you see is displayed for you on some kind of screen, then they indeed get smaller.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Everything we think is real, is a distortion, - nothing is solid.




I may almost agree but my question wasn’t how the world is. My question was, "Why would I believe that there are eight billion people on the planet including ten thousand of scientists yet no one seems to notice that science is wrong from its core?"

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Instead all phenomenon, are said to, occur due to endless, inter-related, causes and conditions, and not due to any separate entities anywhere.




Then tell me, why almost anyone (likely you too) believe they have a free will? The idea of free will (as it is understood by most people) is incompatible with every well-known belief system (religions, science).

Quote:

laughingdog said:
A social conventional self that arises in a social context is acknowledged. This is referred to as 'relative truth' in some Buddhist writings.




It reminds me of when Buddha said something like "There is no soul but let’s not tell this to people because they will go all-in criminals".

When social conventions blur the insight, a sane mind wants to cry or walk away.


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26849973 - 07/28/20 01:45 PM (17 days, 18 hours ago)

You misunderstand (or haven’t actually read any suttas on) the doctrine of an annata, annica, & ducca - in lieu of the doctrine of interdependent origination they are meaningless.

For 1) The doctrine of not-self shouldn’t be taken at face value, it’s utilized as teaching for correcting wrong view.

Not no self , but not-self.  It’s corrective in a similar way to how lucid dreaming is corrective to the way in which we perceive characters in a dream as existing in and of themselves and independent - which intellectually we know to be false, because they are like hallucinations fabricated by the brain, they are dependent upon the brain.  However, In lucid dream we know it to be fabricated/not really real whilst experiencing it - not just after the fact (after waking from said dream).
That brain is dependent upon what it is dependent upon and so forth and so on x ad infinity -  demonstrating how all things are inextricably linked / cause & effect. 

Wrong view is like believing the shadows of an elephant on the wall cast in part by the fire’s light off an object - to be real.  While, right view is like knowing & seeing how the circumstantiality of the situation (and the aggregates composing phenom) give rise to the perception of it as something it is not.

Doctrine of not-self is also like a counter balance weight for our propensity to believe the opposite is true.  Where as one sees hair as theirs - when it falls out and decomposes and it’s building blocks gets reabsorbed into our surrounding environments - do we go chasing each aggregate because it’s ours?  No.  And you don’t see people wanting their excrement back because it came from the body do you? 
A similar notion can be applied to mental phenomena.

It’s a skillful way & means of developing an appropriate view about the nature of phenomena - in such a way so as to release us from a fictive world premised on ignorance & delusion - which due to being premised on those things, causes unruly suffering. 
There’s my poor attempt to explain some of it.

And
Intellectually knowing is one thing, experientially knowing is another. 


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Edited by The Blind Ass (07/28/20 02:14 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850040 - 07/28/20 02:29 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

they are as garbled to us as dependent origination.
In our culture we want some good facts and modelling that can be performed by a computer.
We are getting both more fussy and more stupid.
this is a great time to harvest.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26850064 - 07/28/20 02:42 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

My body is ready for the great harvest

:feelsgoatman:


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850070 - 07/28/20 02:49 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

aft
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
My body is ready for the great harvest




after all that baloney about self, including stealing from Plato

you now have a body!?!?

wonderful


Edited by laughingdog (07/28/20 02:50 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26850093 - 07/28/20 02:59 PM (17 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
When someone walks away from us they aren't really getting smaller, etc.




How do you know that?If, for example, you are living in a simulation ....




Well in your case your brain would get smaller, if it were possible for it to get any smaller.

Supposing its all a simulation changes nothing. If nothing is separate or real, again nothing really shrinks, (same as 'objects' in dreams) and further more if all is one there is no outside reference point from which to make absolute measurements.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26850104 - 07/28/20 03:05 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

I’ve been caught red handed

:futuramamario:


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850180 - 07/28/20 03:54 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
You misunderstand (or haven’t actually read any suttas on) the doctrine of an annata, annica, & ducca - in lieu of the doctrine of interdependent origination they are meaningless.




I haven’t read them. If I had to pick up a religion, I would choose the Brahman, Atman, and Maya setup. It’s funny that the two creator-like and reliable entities have masculine names (other options would be Scatman and Batman), while the illusion/trick/instability has a feminine name.

Regardless of how it might seem, what you, Rahz, and laughingdog wrote about Buddhism doesn’t contradict with what I saw on my trips.

It supports it. Considering what I saw, it would be a bit shocking if I didn’t get used to it in the last eight months.

In a way, everyone to whom I talked about it supported it.

Instead of discussing it in public what I saw, or "knew" from my heart, about a hundred times, let me tell you an example.

What if the flaws of science aren’t there due to a limitation of people? What if they are there on purpose?

Probably everyone knows it here what a lucid dream is. Most likely, you know that although some people have them spontaneously, most people don’t, but methods exist to achieve lucid dreaming.

A well-known one is the reality check. One has to check it many times during the day how the watch looks on their wrist. The goal is to do it so often that one will do it even in their dreams. During the day, the watch looks normal. In the dream, it looks messed up. The messed up watch allows one to know they are dreaming.

In the Inception movie, the protagonist’s reality check was the forever spinning metal.

What if there is a level of dreaming that seems more real? In such a dream, the watch looks normal, one cannot penetrate their palm with their finger, and cannot fly without buying a ticket and getting on a plane.

What if my reality check in such a dream is the stupidity of science and humanity’s ignorance toward it? As far as I know myself, I would pick up this kind of reality check. I would because I don’t have a watch, and I don’t like doing repetitive tasks, but I think a lot. Sooner or later, I would notice it.

(An issue might be the alien-praying mantis-robot, and its BFF, the demon-flash eater plant-alien. I’m not sure where they are and what are they waiting for, although, they came only a few times of a hundred trips.

Moreover, I might have become a victim of my stereotypes. What if they are vegetarians?

Well, I tend to turn into a plant during my trips. But when I am in that form, they should run away. I’m more worried about the scenario when I’m not the plant, and they are not vegetarians.)

By the way, Kali is Brahman.




Edited by Vylie (07/28/20 03:55 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26850191 - 07/28/20 03:58 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

Wait 100,000 more years or so.

Of course, we already have the technology to fight off an alien invasion, so uh... Depending on the type of harvesting we're talking about, I guess it's already too late.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26850214 - 07/28/20 04:20 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Vylie said:
How do you know that?If, for example, you are living in a simulation ....




Well in your case your brain would get smaller, if it were possible for it to get any smaller.





When someone goes offensive on a forum for no reason, everyone knows what’s small and who is frustrated about it.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26850250 - 07/28/20 04:45 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

you are right
i should be content with my stupidity
and flaunt it
then no one will feel threatened

Lets see, 7 out of 10 science fiction movies say its time for us to be harvested,
so it must be true.

And John Lilly talked to the aliens,
so we need have no doubts.

But who wouldn't mind a little more mental power?
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be for sale.

Some say micro-dosing helps,
but who knows?
Then again we may get harvested first.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


Edited by laughingdog (07/28/20 05:04 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26850990 - 07/29/20 12:46 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
you are right
i should be content with my stupidity
and flaunt it
then no one will feel threatened





Look.

A Hellen philosopher already figured out one cannot tell whether the spoon brakes when you put half of it under the water or is it an optical illusion. It cannot be told because anything one puts next to the spoon seems broken too.

I don’t remember who it was. It would be easy to bluff they were a skeptic but deep inside my mind, I think they might have been someone from the stoic school. 

Anyway, I don’t believe it anymore that history happened and these people existed. Philosophy and logic are universal. It doesn’t matter who said it. The truth is all that matters.

When I said you can’t even tell whether the person who walks away gets smaller for real or not, I wasn’t arguing with what you said. It was a confirmation of what you wrote that our senses provide us with a distorted perception of reality.

As soon as you realize your perception is distorted, you can’t even take the opposite of it granted. All you know is you can’t tell it anymore whether they become smaller or not.

Let’s avoid getting personal in philosophical debate (or any debate).

Although I have a desire to join another reality, and the praying mantis is one of my favorite animals, I’m not on the side of the alien robot praying mantis.

I had about 5-8 scary trips of a hundred when I "knew" this was a fake reality I created as a last attempt to survive an attack of such an entity. The first time it seemed more like a robot spider (another favorite animal of me).

It was right after the first time I found this article:

https://www.dailygrail.com/2019/10/disembodied-eyes-an-investigation-into-the-ontology-of-entheogenic-entity-encounters/

But most of the time (95%), what I see is relaxing for me.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26850992 - 07/29/20 12:48 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

you took what happened in a psychedelic trip literally?

Why?  I hope you don’t also take your dreams literally.  If so - It would seem you’ve missed the point and are off to the races. Beware of  Fixating on something that is actually nothing - or symbolic for something in your day to day conscious life - at best.

Why would you jump the shark like that?

Maybe I misunderstood the later part of your post - if so just ignore this and I will too.

Anyways, just because perception isn’t always 100% reliable doesn’t mean it isn’t reliable at all - more so than that, we can compensate to correct for misperceptions -  that’s the good news.  If you believe otherwise you’ve just dug yourself into a solipsistic hell that I can’t say I’m envious of, lol.



--------------------
Give me Liberty caps - or -  give me death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (07/29/20 01:00 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26851009 - 07/29/20 12:58 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I hope you don’t also take your dreams literally.





Why do you hope that?

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
It would seem you’ve missed the point and are off to the races.  Beware of  Fixating on something that is actually nothing.




How do you know what the point is, and what’s nothing?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26851012 - 07/29/20 01:00 AM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

I know the nature of dreams and psychedelic trips - not what the imagery of your dream or hallucinations  content represents or means to you specifically .  Good luck to you!  Beware of delusion.


--------------------
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26851017 - 07/29/20 01:09 AM (17 days, 6 hours ago)

That’s also why instead of the outdated marketing crap like this:



I created the standardized international ISO-885937 system that’s backed up with science and lacks any commercial interest.

It helps the newbies choose the right variety.

















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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26851019 - 07/29/20 01:11 AM (17 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I know the nature of dreams and psychedelic trips - not what the imagery of your dream or hallucinations  content represents or means to you specifically .  Good luck to you!  Beware of delusion.




Then you might also know that synchronicity is considered a confirmation that one is on the right path.

In the last year, the frequency and the intensity of the synchronicity in my life skyrocketed.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26851024 - 07/29/20 01:18 AM (17 days, 6 hours ago)

Good night. 😘


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26851510 - 07/29/20 10:23 AM (16 days, 21 hours ago)

I liked those descriptions for your ISO-885937 project.
hahahaha!


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26857218 - 08/01/20 12:26 PM (13 days, 19 hours ago)

Hello Rahz, The Blind Ass, laughingdog,

when I was thinking about what you wrote, a question arose.

If the self is an idea or a result of distorted perception in Buddhism, then does Buddhism say or suggest that there is only one consciousness?

I’ve never heard that Buddhism said that but if the self isn’t real then there aren’t many other options.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26857288 - 08/01/20 01:20 PM (13 days, 18 hours ago)

mental objects include:
sensations
perceptions
extended associative memories
progressions
language
ideas
attitudes
personality constructs and learned routines, etc.

you can call all of it IDEAS.

buddhism - in abhidhamma, refers to all of them as mental objects, and , regardless of the extent of each (i.e. how many brain cells are actuvated during the mental object's brief presence in the mind/brain) they are all equal, made of groups of related neurons firing in a particular complexity that matches the aggregate of sensation and memory involved.

to be more clear, a particular combination of sensations, combine in an experience and will be linked in memory associatively with other memories that correspond very closely. and they will be linked in memory to experiences preceding and following in time.

we can observe --- the mind can observe, the appearance and fading away of mental objects. One linked to the next and the next and the next.

what is called the ego, what we become defensive about, is not a single thing but many things (ideas), each of which we associate with some defensive habits (ideas). However if you wish you could say that the ego is all of your defenses.

but that is a do thing not a what thing.

there is no single area of the brain that houses the what of defensive behavior, if there were then you could say the ego is here.
many crackpot scientists will rush to the amygdala and declare that this almond shaped mass of neurons is the ego because of all the emotional connectivity. That is a fallacy. emotional connectivity is not the same as defensive behavior. behavior of this type is learned, but it is so common, that we all have at least some ego. some invested automatic defenses. Sometimes it is a life saving thing, so we should not demonize defenses, while we also need relief from the froth that defensiveness makes constraining our life.

letting go after a great series of yoga and meditation sessions - or letting go on mushrooms or whatever may lead to an ego-loss experience with no defensive behavior for  a while, and it is truly delicious.

ego is not a distorted perception. it is a distorted sense of self importance, making excuses for defensive habits.


--------------------


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26857320 - 08/01/20 01:52 PM (13 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
mental objects include:
sensations
perceptions
extended associative memories
progressions
language
ideas
attitudes
personality constructs and learned routines, etc.





OMG, when I saw your list, for a moment, I thought you were quoting the page I read today afternoon.

"You may experience any of the following:

Sense of transcending time or space
Strange plants or plantlike forms
The universe of formless vibration
Strange machines
Alien music
Alien languages, understandable or not
Intelligent entities in a variety of forms"

They are quite similar, aren’t they?

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
ego is not a distorted perception. it is a distorted sense of self importance, making excuses for defensive habits.




How could anyone who isn’t me know whether my sense of my importance is distorted?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26857439 - 08/01/20 03:23 PM (13 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

You could use them as food or you could use their collective consciousness like a computer.




An alien species that could come here would already be producing the most ideal food for themselves. They would also have computers that dwarf humanity. No guarantees but the idea they would need or want to harvest us is the more romantic idea.

Quote:

It doesn’t change the fact the special relativity cannot be applied to them. The theory is based on a hypothesis about light. If it cannot be applied to light, then what can it be applied to?

The constant speed of the light is a hypothesis.




Hmm. I though special relativity could be applied to anything that was moving. At any rate, utility is the main purpose of theories. There is also the philosophical side, and while it's subjective science does play a part in shaping the way people think about the world.

Quote:

If it expands at the same speed, it violates that law due to the potential energy. It is working against gravity. It should slow down just like you slow down after you jump. If you exceed the escape velocity, you will still slow down.

If it expands at an increasing speed, it also violates that law due to the increasing kinetic energy of the objects.




I would say it appears to violate known laws. There are various candidates to explain this phenomena, or perhaps it's some un thought of reason. More testing and discovery is necessary. Either the laws are wrong or there are unseen effects that can explain within the context of scientific law.

Quote:

So, if the parts didn’t move compared to each other, then why is there a redshift?




Objects in the observable universe do move relative to one another, but not at the speed of light. The relationships must be less than the speed of light in order to observe a redshift, but with enough distance the relative movement could exceed the speed of light in which case that light will never reach us. I assume we don't have the full gradient because the universe is only 13.8 billion years old. At the perimeter we should occasionally see new/old stars coming to light.

Quote:

Do you have an example of a language getting more complex?




I would compare it to programming languages which are ultimately compiled into machine language. Words and usage seem like things which must evolve through practice even though there is/was a platform which is both more static and more complex.

Quote:

It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".




Because the illusion of self causes suffering and the objective of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26857497 - 08/01/20 04:02 PM (13 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Hello Rahz, The Blind Ass, laughingdog,

when I was thinking about what you wrote, a question arose.

If the self is an idea or a result of distorted perception in Buddhism, then does Buddhism say or suggest that there is only one consciousness?

I’ve never heard that Buddhism said that but if the self isn’t real then there aren’t many other options.




I think in Buddhism consciousness is considered a formation, but also an impersonal one so it could be fair to say there is only one consciousness, though at risk of a mystical misunderstanding. Maybe more correct to say simply that the only attribute of consciousness is that which it is called.


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26857505 - 08/01/20 04:10 PM (13 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
....

Quote:

It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".




Because the illusion of self causes suffering and the objective of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.




I agree, Vylie , it is contradictory. It is like telling other characters in a dream, that it is all a dream. Except in this case waking up means disappearing. And as everything in a dream is in a sense already oneself (one's own fantasy) simply realizing its a dream should relieve the necessity of taking any action.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26857552 - 08/01/20 05:02 PM (13 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
mental objects include:
sensations
perceptions
extended associative memories
progressions
language
ideas
attitudes
personality constructs and learned routines, etc.





OMG, when I saw your list, for a moment, I thought you were quoting the page I read today afternoon.

"You may experience any of the following:

Sense of transcending time or space
Strange plants or plantlike forms
The universe of formless vibration
Strange machines
Alien music
Alien languages, understandable or not
Intelligent entities in a variety of forms"

They are quite similar, aren’t they?

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
ego is not a distorted perception. it is a distorted sense of self importance, making excuses for defensive habits.




How could anyone who isn’t me know whether my sense of my importance is distorted?



both are lists - both trying to be general and inclusive of experience element types. (I think mine is simpler, but I am trying to be simple and all inclusive of all events in mind)

to the other matter
if you are being defensive, you are probably taking yourself too seriously, egoic-ly, unless you are actually in danger and it would be really bad not to defend.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26858174 - 08/02/20 05:06 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
It is like telling other characters in a dream, that it is all a dream. Except in this case waking up means disappearing. And as everything in a dream is in a sense already oneself (one's own fantasy) simply realizing its a dream should relieve the necessity of taking any action.




So, what if Nirvana and Absolut are names of the state of the subconsciousness after sleeper wakes up?

What if Maya is the dream?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 05:06 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26858176 - 08/02/20 05:09 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

both are lists - both trying to be general and inclusive of experience element types. (I think mine is simpler, but I am trying to be simple and all inclusive of all events in mind)

to the other matter
if you are being defensive, you are probably taking yourself too seriously, egoic-ly, unless you are actually in danger and it would be really bad not to defend.




I think the two lists look similar because both worlds are real in the same amount.

As for the latter, you started talking about something else. The question wasn’t about defense but importance.


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 05:22 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26858182 - 08/02/20 05:22 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

You could use them as food or you could use their collective consciousness like a computer.




An alien species that could come here would already be producing the most ideal food for themselves. They would also have computers that dwarf humanity. No guarantees but the idea they would need or want to harvest us is the more romantic idea.




I think there might have been a misunderstanding. Why would they need to come here? From where would they need to come?

Ahh. I think you believe the stars and galaxies exist. You believe there is distance. What if the aliens are around us? What if they are behind the walls of your room?

Being advanced isn’t an argument against harvesting. It’s an argument for harvesting. I guess you consider yourself more advanced than a salad. Can you see my point?

Quote:


Quote:

It doesn’t change the fact the special relativity cannot be applied to them. The theory is based on a hypothesis about light. If it cannot be applied to light, then what can it be applied to?

The constant speed of the light is a hypothesis.




Hmm. I though special relativity could be applied to anything that was moving.




It can’t be applied to light because then light would have either zero or incalculable energy. That’s where we started.

Quote:


Quote:

If it expands at the same speed, it violates that law due to the potential energy. It is working against gravity. It should slow down just like you slow down after you jump. If you exceed the escape velocity, you will still slow down.

If it expands at an increasing speed, it also violates that law due to the increasing kinetic energy of the objects.




I would say it appears to violate known laws. There are various candidates to explain this phenomena, or perhaps it's some un thought of reason. More testing and discovery is necessary. Either the laws are wrong or there are unseen effects that can explain within the context of scientific law.




If you go to the wrong direction, and you do more testing, you will get more lost.

The "proofs" of how kinetic and potential energy work are much stronger than the "proof" that the Universe is expanding. Shouldn’t we maybe consider it at least that it’s not expanding at all?

(I put the "proofs" into quotes because nothing can be proven.)

Quote:


Quote:

So, if the parts didn’t move compared to each other, then why is there a redshift?




Objects in the observable universe do move relative to one another, but not at the speed of light. The relationships must be less than the speed of light in order to observe a redshift, but with enough distance the relative movement could exceed the speed of light in which case that light will never reach us.




Don’t you see the flaw? You just wrote that the relative speed exceeds the speed of the light. So, goodbye relativity theory.

Quote:


Quote:

Do you have an example of a language getting more complex?




I would compare it to programming languages which are ultimately compiled into machine language. Words and usage seem like things which must evolve through practice even though there is/was a platform which is both more static and more complex.




I like your example not only because it proves my point but also because I didn’t think of it.

Yes, modern programming languages are getting simpler too.

Quote:


Quote:

It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".




Because the illusion of self causes suffering and the objective of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.




Suffering is an illusion. Isn’t it?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 05:25 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858208 - 08/02/20 06:16 AM (13 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote: "It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".

Because the illusion of self causes suffering and the objective of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.

Suffering is an illusion. Isn’t it? "

If one over thinks the whole business it is full of contradictions ... yet

.    A simple answer (re Suffering) is: if it were an illusion heroin would not be addictive.

.    Why teach it?  Again a simple answer is: for the same reason people take psychedelics, and for the same reason people share psychedelics.

.    No need to over think it. The "peace that passeth understanding', cannot be found thru conceptual thought alone, hence meditation.

.  Meditation and its ability to produce altered states, and increase equanimity was well known in India before Buddha and was practiced by yogis, hindus, and sadhus.
.  Buddha wanted to find permanent relief from stress, for all, and an understanding of how & why it arises and ceases, and what this information tells us about how we should live.
.  This is why he taught the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, and didn't just hand out mantras.
.  The 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, are pretty straight forward, and can easily be found on the internet by anyone seriously interested in the subject. There is also more commentary on Buddhist teachings (on the internet, all free, both as audio and text files, by experts) than anyone could absorb in a life time, yet some questions can only be answered by trying it out for oneself.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26858246 - 08/02/20 07:09 AM (13 days, 51 minutes ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
If one over thinks the whole business it is full of contradictions ... yet

.    A simple answer (re Suffering) is: if it were an illusion heroin would not be addictive.

.    Why teach it?  Again a simple answer is: for the same reason people take psychedelics, and for the same reason people share psychedelics.

.    No need to over think it. The "peace that passeth understanding', cannot be found thru conceptual thought alone, hence meditation.

.  Meditation and its ability to produce altered states, and increase equanimity was well known in India before Buddha and was practiced by yogis, hindus, and sadhus.
.  Buddha wanted to find permanent relief from stress, for all, and an understanding of how & why it arises and ceases, and what this information tells us about how we should live.
.  This is why he taught the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, and didn't just hand out mantras.
.  The 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, are pretty straight forward, and can easily be found on the internet by anyone seriously interested in the subject. There is also more commentary on Buddhist teachings (on the internet, all free, both as audio and text files, by experts) than anyone could absorb in a life time, yet some questions can only be answered by trying it out for oneself.




I don’t believe there is such a thing as "overthinking".

There are right thinking and wrong thinking. I think about a topic as long as needed to find an answer that I can accept at least for a while.

If you look at the big religions, it’s easy to see that they are meant to prevent people from attaining power. "You are nothing", "Don’t desire unless you want to suffer", "God is the big boss".

Christianity is more open about it than Buddhism. Half of the Old Testament is about God freaking out of the idea that people would become like God.

(The other half of the Old Testament explains how much God likes the non-believers.)

Genesis:
'[3:22] Then the LORD God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"'

Tower of Babylon:
'5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”'

Questions:

1. Would it be that easy to become like God?

2. Why would it be a problem?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 07:10 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26858261 - 08/02/20 07:18 AM (13 days, 42 minutes ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said: 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, are pretty straight forward, and can easily be found on the internet by anyone seriously interested in the subject.




True, but if I start reading it, which I almost never do but now I did, it would start poisoning my subconscious in less than a minute, if I didn’t reject it.

Normally, people wouldn’t need a religion to learn they are mortals. The purpose of religion is to tell people they are immortals. Buddhism fails at its core.

But it’s a genius work of the mind.

Think about it.

It says reincarnation is bad. One should get rid of it.

Do you know why people are Buddhists? Most of them are because they don’t want to die, and they believe at least the will reincarnate.

If Buddhism said "Don’t worry. You will reincarnate!", fewer people would follow it. It has to say, "Well, you will reincarnate, but it sux!", to convert as many people as possible.

(Think of what Agent Smith told Neo about creating a perfect Matrix only to see people kept waking up as they couldn’t believe it.)

By the way. Buddha said there was no soul.

So, what is the thing that reincarnates?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858430 - 08/02/20 08:58 AM (12 days, 23 hours ago)

the Pali canon suttas + (suttras)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858470 - 08/02/20 09:22 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
the Pali canon suttas + (suttras)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/




I started reading it but I stopped at the same point that stopped me another page.

Look, I love my subconscious. She is amazing.

She is creating this beautiful world for me. She created the mountains behind my window and the lake. She created you.

Even if you and I don’t agree about Buddhism, I like you.

She gave me thousands of gifts. She created tastes, colors, smells for me. She created all the people I slept with.

She has been busy.

I love her with all my heart.

She can even create amazing non-humanoid aliens. All I have to do is eating the mushrooms she grew for me.

So, why would I ever allow any teaching to scare her about mortality?

It is my duty to protect her from the lies.

Sure, there are things I desire which are not present in this world in a physical form. Not yet.

Working on it.


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 09:25 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858476 - 08/02/20 09:24 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

I just linked it in case you ever had have a question about whether the historical buddha said or taught this or that you’d have a reference point should you ever feel inclined to dig in and look, that’s all. 

The Pali canon (Tipitaka)
The earliest systematic and most complete collection of early Buddhist sacred literature is the Pali Tipitaka (“Three Baskets”; Sanskrit: Tripitaka). Its arrangement reflects the importance that the early followers attached to the monastic life (Pali and Sanskrit: Vinaya), to the discourses of the Buddha (Pali: Sutta), and subsequently to the interest in scholasticism (Pali: Abhidhamma).



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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858487 - 08/02/20 09:28 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I just linked it so whenever you have a question about whether the historical buddha said this or that you’d have a reference, that’s all.




But if you read it, you can answer the question, if there is an answer. How can people reincarnate if they have no soul?

Behind my question, there might be an alternative explanation.

I might be unsure about it though.

I’m here to put it together with you. I can Google but what I found in Buddhism is negativity.

If I had to pick up a religion (fortunately I don't have to), the core of Hinduism would make more sense.

All religions are full of truths. That’s how one can sell a lie. One can’t sell a pack of lies without any truth in it.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858489 - 08/02/20 09:31 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I just linked it so whenever you have a question about whether the historical buddha said or taught this or that you’d have a reference for if you ever felt inclined to dig in and search, that’s all. 





I understand. Maybe I was not clear. I’m glad you helped. Thank you.

I was just wondering do you want to believe that you cannot have desires and satisfaction without suffering and emptiness?

Why would anyone want to believe that?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858491 - 08/02/20 09:31 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

It has nothing to do with what I want to believe or with picking a religion.  If you want to know what actually is said - you can read the Tipitaka.  Most general google searches are not specifically going to bring up suttas - neither will they likely give a proper understanding.  There’s a lot of hear say about Buddhism and the Historical Buddha and related philosophy, teachings, and practices. 


It’s not a very good hobby nor is it meant to be a decorative thing for ones life, oh stream-winner.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (08/02/20 09:44 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858521 - 08/02/20 09:47 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
It’s not a very good hobby nor is it meant to be a decorative thing for ones life, oh stream-winner.




I guess you also don’t know how one could reincarnate without having a soul.

If I understand something, I can summarize it for you in one, three, or five sentences, depending on your desire. I can do it about anything I understand.

It seems to me that no one whom I asked so far understood how one could reincarnate without a soul. That means, no one could show it to me that it made sense. So would I read a book about it?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 09:48 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858525 - 08/02/20 09:50 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN38.html

Inform yourself.  But it’s one of those things that takes time.  Unless you are familiar with dependent co-arising, the four-nutriments, the elements, the 5 skhandas, 4 noble truths,  noble 8 fold path - etc etc as they themselves are taught from within the context of Buddhist suttas and other records -  it’s going to give you a headache b/c if you assume their meaning without actually knowing it will lead to wrong understanding - which helps no one - and leads to confusion - wrong view.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (08/02/20 10:09 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858561 - 08/02/20 10:18 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN38.html

Inform yourself.  But it’s one of those things that takes time.




Let me show examples of a summary:

Lord of the Rings:
"An object must be moved from point A to point B".

Matrix:
"The invading aliens made humans believe they were AI created by the humans who can’t even build an auto-aim gun to shoot down the aliens".

Hinduism:
The eternal reality is creating the ephemeral world.


I will try to read it but if the consciousness can reborn then what’s the difference between the soul and the consciousness?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858855 - 08/02/20 12:59 PM (12 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
I will try to read it but if the consciousness can reborn then what’s the difference between the soul and the consciousness?




I think the most common conceptualization of the difference between the terms "spirit" and "soul" is that spirit is pure consciousness -- i.e., the "substance" of which consciousness is made -- and soul is the signature of consciousness of an individual person or entity. You could say soul is like a person's spiritual and existential fingerprint.

:twocents:


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26859064 - 08/02/20 02:32 PM (12 days, 17 hours ago)

vylie
the subconscious is a myth.

there is no subconscious. it was part of a cosmology put forth by Freud and it is still undermining all of modern psychology.

yes we have memory
yes we have trauma
but we do not have to create a new construct beyond the conscious mind itself. Everything in mind is consciousness. including all the partial perceptions, and partial recollections. nothing is part of any other construct than being and memory.  Memory has impact on being because that is how perception works, it is always in terms of what you already have been through.


in conscious mind some stuff is clear and some stuff is less central in the moment.

there is no one thing that encompasses all that is not central to the moment except the aggregate of all memory.

what is central in the moment is conscious. there is nothing in the user manual for consciousness that means you get to understand everything, but that is not an excuse to call all of what is mysterious subconscious.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26859077 - 08/02/20 02:42 PM (12 days, 17 hours ago)

I disagree.

The subconscious is just the part of you that still knows all of what your conscious mind has denied out of fear.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26859134 - 08/02/20 03:15 PM (12 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Why would they need to come here? From where would they need to come?

Ahh. I think you believe the stars and galaxies exist. You believe there is distance. What if the aliens are around us? What if they are behind the walls of your room?




I think energy is required to move from one location to another. Whether distance is real isn't as important as the effort involved. Do you suspect aliens are behind the walls?

Quote:

Being advanced isn’t an argument against harvesting. It’s an argument for harvesting. I guess you consider yourself more advanced than a salad. Can you see my point?




Yes I see your point but there's nothing special about humans. Of course, if aliens were behind the walls they might snack on us, but if they're able to traverse the galaxy they would also have a food source, and along with that technology they would have a refined food source. Humans would be low quality.

Quote:

It can’t be applied to light because then light would have either zero or incalculable energy. That’s where we started.




The rest mass of light is zero but it does have momentum and wavelength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_energy#Physical_properties

Quote:

Shouldn’t we maybe consider it at least that it’s not expanding at all?




Sure. How do you explain the cosmological redshift?

Quote:

Don’t you see the flaw? You just wrote that the relative speed exceeds the speed of the light. So, goodbye relativity theory.




You're still equating the expansion with movement through a medium. I'm not a physicist but it seems reasonable to me that stretching a medium is different than moving through it.

Quote:

Suffering is an illusion. Isn’t it?




In a sense, but I would say that suffering is the product of an illusion. Pain is real enough.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26859202 - 08/02/20 04:03 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

Religions protect me from people. Christianity and Buddhism are my best bodyguards.

Unfortunately, they don’t offer me much protection from the alien demons. They might be atheists or something like that.

I’m not sure I can kill them but the negotiation isn’t over either. It never started.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26859205 - 08/02/20 04:06 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

I think the most common conceptualization of the difference between the terms "spirit" and "soul" is that spirit is pure consciousness -- i.e., the "substance" of which consciousness is made -- and soul is the signature of consciousness of an individual person or entity. You could say soul is like a person's spiritual and existential fingerprint.

:twocents:




Don’t get me wrong but I love you.

I will read it again when the walls remember how to breathe in a subtle way.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26859211 - 08/02/20 04:09 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
vylie
the subconscious is a myth.





You are trying to convince me that you don't exist.

Now you owe me your life.


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 04:09 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26859214 - 08/02/20 04:17 PM (12 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Do you suspect aliens are behind the walls?




I don’t suspect them there. I put them there. It wasn’t a great idea but look around and tell me if you could identify a great one.

Quote:

Rahz said:


Of course, if aliens were behind the walls they might snack on us, but if they're able to traverse the galaxy they would also have a food source, and along with that technology they would have a refined food source. Humans would be low quality.




Yeah. There is no galaxy and there are no planets. Don’t get me wrong. I do have a telescope at home. Without a telescope, they seem small. I like to see them a bit larger. My computer screen is a bit closer. I don’t need a telescope for it. But that’s it.

Quote:

Rahz said:
The rest mass of light is zero but it does have momentum and wavelength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_energy#Physical_properties





It makes no sense to have momentum without mass.

Quote:

Rahz said:
Sure. How do you explain the cosmological redshift?




It’s obvious. Reality-check.

Quote:

Rahz said:
You're still equating the expansion with movement through a medium. I'm not a physicist but it seems reasonable to me that stretching a medium is different than moving through it.





You are smart. It’s not your fault that it makes no sense.

It’s like that with a purpose. It’s intentional.


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 04:43 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26859343 - 08/02/20 05:32 PM (12 days, 14 hours ago)

I kinda like your vibe, but flat statements aren't the greatest. I do appreciate the correspondence, though I'm past my mystical stage. Not that there's no mystery to life or reality but I'm okay with not having explanations for everything in lieu of explanations that make sense.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26859583 - 08/02/20 07:22 PM (12 days, 12 hours ago)

the harvest has started


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26859669 - 08/02/20 08:21 PM (12 days, 11 hours ago)

The harvesters have come?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26859950 - 08/03/20 01:22 AM (12 days, 6 hours ago)

Yes. Three different kinds.

Super dark purple aliens, giant insects including the praying mantis, and a psychedelic town.

I tried to communicate but they kept coming closer and closer. The insects wanted to end up behind me. "No talk while eating".

Now we are trapped in this reality. Any idea is welcome.

PS: I think the psychedelic town wouldn’t come after me if I don’t go there. The others have nothing better to do.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26860211 - 08/03/20 07:52 AM (12 days, 8 minutes ago)

the insects are you parents "no talk while eating"
purple lives matter
psychedelic town is in your head, it's always there, easy to forget.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26861920 - 08/04/20 02:40 AM (11 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I kinda like your vibe, but flat statements aren't the greatest. I do appreciate the correspondence, though I'm past my mystical stage. Not that there's no mystery to life or reality but I'm okay with not having explanations for everything in lieu of explanations that make sense.




Which statement was flat? We could argue but it never ends. By the way, don’t you find quantum mechanics mysterious?

Quote:


I think energy is required to move from one location to another. Whether distance is real isn't as important as the effort involved.




What physics says isn’t much about what you think. You might be right about the reality compared to physics, but what physics says is known.

For example, if you move an object on a flat surface from point A to point B (by lifting it first and putting it down), you don’t do work in the physical meaning. It doesn’t need energy.

When you lift the item, you spend energy to increase the system’s potential energy but you get it back when you put down the item. When you start moving it in a horizontal direction, you invest energy that transforms into kinetic energy. You get it back when you stop the movement of the item.

Quote:

Yes I see your point but there's nothing special about humans. Of course, if aliens were behind the walls they might snack on us, but if they're able to traverse the galaxy they would also have a food source, and along with that technology they would have a refined food source. Humans would be low quality.




You always get back to the hypothesis that the aliens are far from us. Why do you take it granted? What if you are grown in a monotub?

Quote:


The rest mass of light is zero but it does have momentum and wavelength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_energy#Physical_properties




If the photon has any kind of energy at the speed of light, then it should have a mass at the speed of light. That’s because E=mc2.

If it has a mass at the speed of light, then it should have a mass at a lower speed too (hence it’s coming from its frequency). If it has a mass at a lower speed, then it should have a mass at rest too.

You’ll never fix it because it’s fucked up. The math in the theory is non-sense.

Quote:

You're still equating the expansion with movement through a medium. I'm not a physicist but it seems reasonable to me that stretching a medium is different than moving through it.





You forgot that physics says the light needs no medium to travel. And if the medium is expanding, why is there a redshift, and why isn’t your body growing?

If you consider only the last step, you will always find an answer on the Internet for a single question, but if you put them into a logical chain (deductive logic), they will never make sense (in these topics).


Edited by Vylie (08/04/20 04:00 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26861970 - 08/04/20 04:33 AM (11 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
I agree, Vylie , it is contradictory. It is like telling other characters in a dream, that it is all a dream. Except in this case waking up means disappearing. And as everything in a dream is in a sense already oneself (one's own fantasy) simply realizing its a dream should relieve the necessity of taking any action.




So, here we are.

What you say makes a lot of sense, but:

1. Why do you think one would disappear after waking up?

2. How could this be true with more than one person?

As for the latter one. There is an extensive list of spiritual teachings and books that seem correct except for one thing. They work only together with Solipsism. As soon as you apply them to more than one person, you get conflicts, even (especially) if these people are illusions.


Edited by Vylie (08/04/20 04:46 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26861977 - 08/04/20 04:40 AM (11 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Not no self , but not-self.  It’s corrective in a similar way to how lucid dreaming is corrective to the way in which we perceive characters in a dream as existing in and of themselves and independent - which intellectually we know to be false, because they are like hallucinations fabricated by the brain, they are dependent upon the brain.  However, In lucid dream we know it to be fabricated/not really real whilst experiencing it - not just after the fact (after waking from said dream).




I like what you wrote although it leads to the same issue you can see in my previous post. Many (most of the) teachings that make sense lead to Solipsism.

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
And
Intellectually knowing is one thing, experientially knowing is another. 




When I find the right pharma or mushroom dosage, I know the truth without any thinking or questions.

It’s just when I’m sober it’s noncommunicable. I want to be sure I examined it from every possible angle before I take it granted.


Edited by Vylie (08/04/20 04:46 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26861986 - 08/04/20 04:59 AM (11 days, 3 hours ago)

what if your body and all other bodies are expanding?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26862020 - 08/04/20 05:47 AM (11 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
what if your body and all other bodies are expanding?




This idea makes sense especially if you replace the expansion to something similar.

Think of what happens in the forest after the rain. I don’t mean the part when the Little Red Riding Hood and the Wolf have sex.

A mushroom grows. It doesn’t have to be a magic mushroom. Any mushroom will do.

What happens in the mushroom fruit? Its cells get farther and farther from each other. It happens with increasing speed (until the mushroom stops growing).

Did the mushroom explode in the beginning? No, it didn’t.

What the Universe seems doing is much more similar to growth than to an expansion after an explosion.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862152 - 08/04/20 08:00 AM (11 days, 27 seconds ago)

and what if consciousness is just memory with sensation.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862160 - 08/04/20 08:04 AM (10 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

don’t you find quantum mechanics mysterious?




Sure, physics too. They are interesting models.

Quote:

When you lift the item, you spend energy to increase the system’s potential energy but you get it back when you put down the item. When you start moving it in a horizontal direction, you invest energy that transforms into kinetic energy. You get it back when you stop the movement of the item.




There is energy being used, and those things take time. That is the point.

Quote:

You always get back to the hypothesis that the aliens are far from us. Why do you take it granted? What if you are grown in a monotub?




It's just a matter of degree. In a mono-tub there is still space. We all have the experience of space here. Things exist in space. Some things are further than others. These are relationships we perceive. We can model aspects of our perception with math, and on the mental level there are models being created that serve the same purpose on a local level. These models when they have validity are good predictors. If you think "out there" is somehow different and not really out there, it's not my job to agree with you unless you can provide a convincing argument rather than making flat statements like no space, no planets, etc.

I can entertain the idea that space is only a property of relationships, but that's as real as it needs to be. We can postulate that there's a way to teleport and thus change the relationship without using movement, but it needs to be proven. That quantum mechanics is mysterious doesn't prove relationships are voluntary or invalid or based on limiting beliefs.

Quote:

If the photon has any kind of energy at the speed of light, then it should have a mass at the speed of light. That’s because E=mc2.




E=mc2 applies when there is mass, answering the question of how much energy does a particular mass have. Conversely, if there is energy there is potentially mass. Mass I suspect is a property of entanglement and not an inherent quality of energy. Models like E=mc2 are not fucked up, but limited. They don't explain everything, but if they are good predictors they are valid in that sense because that's what they are for. There is a formula for calculating the energy of a photon in the link I provided, no m necessary.

Quote:

You forgot that physics says the light needs no medium to travel. And if the medium is expanding, why is there a redshift, and why isn’t your body growing?




You seem to be making the assumption that a vacuum is the absence of a medium. Space is the medium, which is the set of relationships in which everything exists. An expanding medium necessitates not everything expanding, otherwise there would be no expansion or change in relationship. Photons and bodies don't grow with the medium. Why is that? I don't know. Why should they? Not all the math or understanding is available for us to consider so we consider what is available. Just because not everything makes sense doesn't mean nothing makes sense. We perceive relationships and we make models. They're not "god's word" but if they are correct predictors they are valid in that way. And while it's not difficult to suggest that we don't understand it all, that's not a good basis for jumping to conclusions, trying to arbitrarily invalidate physics or quantum mechanics because we can't fully wrap our mind around it all. Mysterious! Means not knowing. I'm okay with it.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26862199 - 08/04/20 08:41 AM (10 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and what if consciousness is just memory with sensation.




Once I experienced a temporary memory loss due to a bad move.

When I opened my eyes, I did not recognize my old friend who was standing above me and who freaked out. I did not recognize the place. (It was his apartment). For a while, I could not talk.

Yet I had consciousness.

I say it doesn’t depend on your memories.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26862240 - 08/04/20 09:04 AM (10 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Sure, physics too. They are interesting models.




Classic physics doesn’t say that the Universe notices when you observe it and it changes its behavior.

Quote:


There is energy being used, and those things take time. That is the point.




The movement doesn’t require energy. Changing the speed does.

Quote:


In a mono-tub there is still space. We all have the experience of space here. Things exist in space.




How much space have you experienced so far? How far did you get from the planet?

Quote:

If you think "out there" is somehow different and not really out there, it's not my job to agree with you unless you can provide a convincing argument rather than making flat statements like no space, no planets, etc.




Normally, I would agree with you.

In this case, I can only ask, have you ever considered taking psychedelics?

Quote:


We can postulate that there's a way to teleport and thus change the relationship without using movement,




There is no need to teleport. It can be solved by:

* Having more than three dimensions
* Putting a poison/drug into your food that hides the true reality from your eyes.
* Etc.

Quote:


E=mc2 applies when there is mass, answering the question of how much energy does a particular mass have. Conversely, if there is energy there is potentially mass.




Can we say vibration is a movement between two points?

If we say that, it makes sense to accept that vibration can store energy and momentum but only if the vibrating thing has a mass.

If vibration is not a movement between two points or a movement of something without a mass, then how would it store energy?

Quote:

There is a formula for calculating the energy of a photon in the link I provided, no m necessary.




Yes, there is a formula, but as I wrote it above, the idea that vibration can store energy makes sense only if there is mass.

Quote:

You seem to be making the assumption that a vacuum is the absence of a medium.




Again, we are talking not about what I think of the reality but what the relativity theory is based on. It’s based on a kind of light that does not require a medium to travel. Such a light could exhibit redshift indeed, but then the expansion of the Universe is a movement of the objects in it because it behaves like movement in every way. And if it’s movement, it violates the relativity theory.

Quote:

Space is the medium, which is the set of relationships in which everything exists. An expanding medium necessitates not everything expanding, otherwise there would be no expansion or change in relationship. Photons and bodies don't grow with the medium. Why is that? I don't know. Why should they? Not all the math or understanding is available for us to consider so we consider what is available.




This official explanation is a rampant raping of the word "expansion". Following the logic, we can also call it expansion of the Universe when I go to the grocery and I buy butter. It’s just a special expansion. It doesn’t make anything grow. Why? We don’t know. But it increases the amount of butter in my fridge. Why? We don’t know. But it’s an expansion. Really!

Quote:


Just because not everything makes sense doesn't mean nothing makes sense. We perceive relationships and we make models. They're not "god's word" but if they are correct predictors they are valid in that way.




Yes, if they are correct predictors.

But they are not, because the Universe seems to expand faster than the speed of light, and the speed is accelerating. That violates what physics would predict in multiple ways.

The model couldn’t be worse.

Quote:

And while it's not difficult to suggest that we don't understand it all, that's not a good basis for jumping to conclusions, trying to arbitrarily invalidate physics or quantum mechanics because we can't fully wrap our mind around it all. Mysterious! Means not knowing. I'm okay with it.




All my life, I achieved finding the correct answer by throwing away the incorrect answers and continue searching.

Stretching a ridiculous model will take you only farther from the "truth".


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862436 - 08/04/20 10:51 AM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and what if consciousness is just memory with sensation.




Once I experienced a temporary memory loss due to a bad move.

When I opened my eyes, I did not recognize my old friend who was standing above me and who freaked out. I did not recognize the place. (It was his apartment). For a while, I could not talk.

Yet I had consciousness.

I say it doesn’t depend on your memories.



contentious aren't ya!

during amnesia your perceptions were incomplete, so your consciousness was incomplete, yet you formed the new memory which you relate to us now; as if the lack of recollection at that moment, were proof that consciousness (still forming the memory in question, but unable to access others,) does not involve memory, yet even in this instance it does, very troubling to the event as well.

and what of your consciousness just before you could not recognize your friend. Most likely a gap - possible reflexes, but nobody there.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26862467 - 08/04/20 11:09 AM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and what of your consciousness just before you could not recognize your friend. Most likely a gap - possible reflexes, but nobody there.




Defining consciousness is almost as difficult as defining time or space.

Its core might be the self-awareness.

One can be self-aware without any sensation of the outside world.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862500 - 08/04/20 11:32 AM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Classic physics doesn’t say that the Universe notices when you observe it and it changes its behavior.




Observation requires interaction. Although physics doesn't predict quantum events, the principle is similar. If you observe something moving with touch, you alter behavior.

Quote:

The movement doesn’t require energy. Changing the speed does.




That doesn't invalidate my point. If there is no space, what would be the point of speed?

Quote:

How much space have you experienced so far? How far did you get from the planet?




For this to be relevant you would need a basis for suggesting space here (what I have experienced) is not an indicator of space there. This requires explanation.

Quote:

In this case, I can only ask, have you ever considered taking psychedelics?




Sure. What's your point? I've had interesting experiences and questioned the nature of reality. But what's to say the psychedelic experience is more real? Is there some utility to be taken from it besides the philosophical?

Quote:

* Having more than three dimensions
* Putting a poison/drug into your food that hides the true reality from your eyes.
* Etc.




Maybe we have somewhat different definitions of teleportation, but the effect is the same. You are welcome to prove you can circumvent space without movement.

Quote:

Can we say vibration is a movement between two points?
If we say that, it makes sense to accept that vibration can store energy and momentum but only if the vibrating thing has a mass.
If vibration is not a movement between two points or a movement of something without a mass, then how would it store energy?




Why must there be mass? As I mentioned, mass is not an inherent quality of energy but rather a potential property of it. Just because E=mc2 does not mean all E must contain m but rather there is the potential for it. When there is m, we can find E using that formula.

Quote:

Again, we are talking not about what I think of the reality but what the relativity theory is based on. It’s based on a kind of light that does not require a medium to travel. Such a light could exhibit redshift indeed, but then the expansion of the Universe is a movement of the objects in it because it behaves like movement in every way. And if it’s movement, it violates the relativity theory.




Again, you're equating a vacuum with the absence of a medium...

Quote:

Following the logic, we can also call it expansion of the Universe when I go to the grocery and I buy butter. It’s just a special expansion.




and equating the expansion (one type of change in relationship based on the medium) with classic movement (a change in relationship within the medium). In both cases relationships change, but that doesn't mean the causation is the same.

Quote:

Yes, if they are correct predictors.

But they are not, because the Universe seems to expand faster than the speed of light, and the speed is accelerating. That violates what physics would predict in multiple ways.

The model couldn’t be worse.




Sure it could be worse, if it didn't predict anything or predicted with poor results. And we don't know if the expansion violates physics in some way, or if there's an unseen effect that would account for the phenomena without violating physics. It's mysterious and a mystery lacks answers. Do you have answers, or is it mysterious?

Quote:

All my life, I achieved finding the correct answer by throwing away the incorrect answers and continue searching.

Stretching a ridiculous model will take you only farther from the "truth".




If you cannot use alternate answers for predictions, and the ideas you frown on can be used to predict, even in some limited context, what does that say about your answers? They hold some value to you, but why should they hold value to someone else? If alternate answers can predict some behavior, but a classic answer predicts other behavior, do you discard one in favor of the other, knowing that they both don't account for all phenomena?


--------------------
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862502 - 08/04/20 11:33 AM (10 days, 20 hours ago)

I am not aware of any description of self-awareness without some sensation driving the changes (not necessarily sensations of externality; sensations can be internal, and may even cascade extensively - eg. during 'sensory-deprivation" which re-orients towards the internal world only).


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26862549 - 08/04/20 12:07 PM (10 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am not aware of any description of self-awareness without some sensation driving the changes (not necessarily sensations of externality; sensations can be internal, and may even cascade extensively - eg. during 'sensory-deprivation" which re-orients towards the internal world only).




I’ve heard there was a room with almost perfect sound absorption. The world record is 45 minutes but most people can’t spend ten minutes inside.

https://www.gobeepbeep.com/world-quietest-room/#:~:text=Orfield%20Laboratories%20in%20South%20Minneapolis,stayed%20there%20in%2045%20minutes.

On the other hand, it’s a common tradition to send the wannabe shamans into complete darkness for one or two weeks.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862614 - 08/04/20 12:41 PM (10 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I am not aware of any description of self-awareness without some sensation driving the changes (not necessarily sensations of externality; sensations can be internal, and may even cascade extensively - eg. during 'sensory-deprivation" which re-orients towards the internal world only).




I’ve heard there was a room with almost perfect sound absorption. The world record is 45 minutes but most people can’t spend ten minutes inside.

https://www.gobeepbeep.com/world-quietest-room/#:~:text=Orfield%20Laboratories%20in%20South%20Minneapolis,stayed%20there%20in%2045%20minutes.

On the other hand, it’s a common tradition to send the wannabe shamans into complete darkness for one or two weeks.



sure, lots to learn in shaman lore,
and many reasons to give up a challenge of sensory deprivation, but sensation goes on, and when they give up, what is driving it is going to be sensations of having to pee or hunger or cramps etc.
the body produces sensations and each of those cascades into perceptions (memory events) and those can cascade into paranoid fears etc.

you can harvest this: consciousness = sensation + memory


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26862684 - 08/04/20 01:28 PM (10 days, 18 hours ago)



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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26862719 - 08/04/20 02:00 PM (10 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Observation requires interaction. Although physics doesn't predict quantum events, the principle is similar. If you observe something moving with touch, you alter behavior.




Classic physics doesn’t say that it makes a difference whether you watch a train or not. It will go at the same speed on the same rails. Quantum mechanics says the electron knows if you observe it.

Quote:


That doesn't invalidate my point. If there is no space, what would be the point of speed?




During a mushroom or a pharma trip, there are times I feel being suffocated. Breathing does nothing. I get no oxygen. On my last trip, it happened three times.

In general, I need more air on a trip than at baseline. I can’t imagine a mushroom or a pharma trip without open windows. But the suffocating is magnitudes more serious.

I can do one thing to stay alive. I open my eyes. I’m back in the room. I breathe. I get oxygen.

It may sound crazy but one of the possible explanations is that I’m not in the room until I open my eyes.

It doesn’t happen only when I see something scary. It happens when the trip seems the most real.

Quote:


For this to be relevant you would need a basis for suggesting space here (what I have experienced) is not an indicator of space there. This requires explanation.




I think no human has ever been to space. They went to low orbit. The Moon landing was faked. At least the videos are fake. On one of them, I can see the air moving. No, it’s not the flag. It’s ridiculous.

Since NASA is lying about the Moon landing, it would be crazy to believe them anything.

Quote:

I've had interesting experiences and questioned the nature of reality. But what's to say the psychedelic experience is more real? Is there some utility to be taken from it besides the philosophical?




It doesn’t have to be more real. It’s enough if it’s real in the same amount. There are many possibilities. I will tell you one example.

Let’s say this world is a simulation. You are in your room. You have been living there for decades. At least, you have memories about it. In the next moment, you find yourself in an alien laboratory. It’s not on another planet. It’s in another (simulated) world.

How much did you travel?

Quote:


Maybe we have somewhat different definitions of teleportation, but the effect is the same. You are welcome to prove you can circumvent space without movement.




Let’s look at it another way. Many things I saw during my trips turned out to be true or happened later, regardless of how crazy they seemed. For this reason, I can’t ignore the rest of what I have seen. I’m not saying they are true but I can’t state they are not.

Quote:


Why must there be mass? As I mentioned, mass is not an inherent quality of energy but rather a potential property of it.




Mass is not the only way to store the energy, but it’s the only way we know to store energy by movement. Vibration is movement. By the way, there isn’t any known explanation of why particles vibrate. About every other vibration (water surface, sound waves, spring) there is an explanation. We believe we know the forces that cause the vibration (and we probably do). I’ve never heard or read any slightest hint about why a particle or light would vibrate.

Quote:

Again, you're equating a vacuum with the absence of a medium...




No. It doesn’t need to be empty. But if light needs no transfer medium then it doesn’t matter if it’s not empty unless those things interact with light. Relativity theory doesn’t say things in space interact with light, with the exception of gravity.

Quote:

If you cannot use alternate answers for predictions, and the ideas you frown on can be used to predict, even in some limited context, what does that say about your answers?




Why do you think I can’t? I can come up with better ideas in a few minutes.

Let me underline I don’t think stars exist hence it’s not my idea how the world is. But if we imagine that the Universe exists, let’s see:

Science’s gravity:
There are many issues with gravity. First of all, they say it’s caused by some radiation/particles. They are supposed to be either photons or so-called gravitons.

The first question is if mass emits radiation, why wouldn’t it vaporize? Think of the Hawking radiation. It is supposed to make black holes vaporize even though those are only virtual particles. So, if a planet emits photons to produce gravity, why isn’t the planet disappearing?

The second question is, if gravity is caused by particles/radiation, and even photons can’t escape the black holes, then how can gravity escape black holes? Why would anything fall into a black hole if it has no gravity-field?

Alternative:
There is no gravity. There is background radiation that pushes anything that has a mass. It pushes them with the same force from every direction. However, mass shadows this background radiation. When you put two items next to each other, they shadow the radiation for each other, thus they move towards each other.

The farther they are from each other, the smaller the angle is in which they shadow the background radiation. That’s why gravity decreases over distance.

Blackhole problem solved as soon as we believe that this radiation is super powerful, and the normal (non-black-hole) matter can shadow only a tiny little bit of it.

Alternative redshift:
The Universe is not expanding. Light gets tired over distance. The farther it cames from, the more tired it gets. When it gets tired, its frequency decreases.

It explains why scientists can’t tell where the epicenter of the Big Bang was. If there was a big bang, the redshift around us should be asymmetrical. Using the distance of the stars and the amount of the redshift they exhibit, it should be easy to point out where the Big Bang happened.

They don’t say such a thing but it seems like we were in the epicenter of it considering the redshift seems homogenous around the Earth. It depends on the distance of the stars but not their direction (location on the sky).

If there is no expansion but the light gets tired and turns redder and redder over distance, you get exactly how it seems to be.


Edited by Vylie (08/04/20 02:01 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862736 - 08/04/20 02:13 PM (10 days, 17 hours ago)

Do you believe the sun exists?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26862751 - 08/04/20 02:23 PM (10 days, 17 hours ago)

I can only see darkness against something brighter. but if everything is dark, I see at least two worlds, one all sparkly bits, and one which refelcts what I am doing based upon memories of doing it in light.

that said,

if I look at the same view for a few minutes, unchanging aspects of the view usually disappear. My reflex driven consciousness prefers to stay with the part that is changing.

for example the periphery of this text box looses focus+detail+color+shape+importance
until I am finished typing and maybe after pressing continue, then finally the icons come back into view.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26863103 - 08/04/20 05:37 PM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Classic physics doesn’t say that it makes a difference whether you watch a train or not. It will go at the same speed on the same rails. Quantum mechanics says the electron knows if you observe it.




Technically I'm not watching a train, I'm watching the photons that bounced off the train. I also find curious your use of the word "knows". If I run my hand through water the water reacts, but it doesn't know anything as far as I can tell so it's an unnecessary mystification to suggest electrons know we observe them.

Quote:

It may sound crazy but one of the possible explanations is that I’m not in the room until I open my eyes.




I wouldn't say it's crazy, but the mind is capable of creating realistic imagery and sound. I'm glad you consider it one of the possible explanations rather than the truth.

Quote:

I think no human has ever been to space. They went to low orbit. The Moon landing was faked. At least the videos are fake. On one of them, I can see the air moving. No, it’s not the flag. It’s ridiculous.

Since NASA is lying about the Moon landing, it would be crazy to believe them anything.




I'm not familiar with the clip you reference, though I've seen various clips that are claimed as evidence of deception. On the surface they can seem legit, but often there are debunking the debunking videos which provide a rational basis for why a clip appears the way it does. I know what you mean, but pretty sure you didn't see "air moving". You saw an indicator, but there could be alternate explanations. I would need to see the clip and do some research to provide an opinion on it. Also, the body of evidence for distance beyond the atmosphere goes well beyond NASA.

Quote:

Let’s say this world is a simulation. You are in your room. You have been living there for decades. At least, you have memories about it. In the next moment, you find yourself in an alien laboratory. It’s not on another planet. It’s in another (simulated) world.

How much did you travel?




In this hypothetical example I apparently didn't travel, but anything can be hypothesized. To have credibility, to change a paradigm, you must have reproducible evidence that can be tested and validated.

Quote:

Mass is not the only way to store the energy, but it’s the only way we know to store energy by movement. Vibration is movement. By the way, there isn’t any known explanation of why particles vibrate. About every other vibration (water surface, sound waves, spring) there is an explanation. We believe we know the forces that cause the vibration (and we probably do). I’ve never heard or read any slightest hint about why a particle or light would vibrate.




I can't give you an exact answer without quoting things I don't understand, but physicists don't seem to have an issue with it. If you are looking for technical explanations, this is not the ideal forum for that. As to why photons vibrate, I find wave/particle duality very mysterious, but that's also something which is discussed on physics forums so you shouldn't take my lack of an answer to mean there isn't one that fits in with quantum mechanics or special relativity.

Quote:

Why do you think I can’t? I can come up with better ideas in a few minutes....




Background microwave radiation can be measured? How much microwave radiation is needed to move an object? Do these two quantities corroborate the idea that microwave shadows cause the illusion of gravity?

Frequency does decrease with distance. The cosmological red shift is a different effect. Is there a test that can be done to support one over the other using parallax or other technique?

I hope you get the idea. Even with genius physicists, people want to test their theories to see if they create reliable predictions. But I'm wondering, if you don't believe planets or space exist, why would you suggest that light gets tired over such distances, or that some substitute for gravity needs to be enunciated?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26863160 - 08/04/20 06:03 PM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

Rahz, I’ll try to help you.

Imagine you wake up. The aliens are around your bed.

Your life was a dream. Planet Earth was a dream as well.

Did they have to travel here from distant galaxies?

No.

Did they have to teleport or live in the 5th dimension?

No.

They just put you into asleep.

Meanwhile, they built a computer using your brain. You know, the theoretical connections between your synapses are more than how many atoms your dream Universe used to have.

Why would they need to do this? Why would they need your brain?

Listen.

They absolutely do not need it.

Then why did they do it?

They enjoy torturing you.

They wanted to see your face when you wake up and you realize what they did to you.

But don’t worry. Tonight, I killed them all.

You can relax now. We are safe. You are welcome.

The only issue is that now, as the aliens are gone, I can finally destroy this reality and go somewhere else. This is what I desire from my heart.

It took me a while to figure it out how to deal with them. But there are entities in this reality I love. I know they are illusions. I know they are me. But I love them and I am not sure I could re-create them.

So, I might stay a bit longer than I wanted.

Enjoy your life.


Edited by Vylie (08/04/20 06:05 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26863174 - 08/04/20 06:09 PM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Do you believe the sun exists?




The Sun exists but my ideal suncream does not. So what’s the point?

The explanation of the gravity is that without gravity, people would fly away. After they flew away, they could not kill each other.

Sex would become even more complicated.

And the rendered universe would need to be a bit bigger. Like, at least as big as the imaginary solar system.

At the border, people could bounce back or disappear. I love the latter. Imagine that. They would fly out of existence. It takes only a jump and a bit of patience.

I should make this true one day.

Now we have the gravity, and you won’t fly away.


Edited by Vylie (08/04/20 06:11 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26863195 - 08/04/20 06:22 PM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

Well... that's a scary story. I tend to believe the monsters are human. The ghosts of such monsters may find their way into our heads.

You seem like a kind soul so I hope you enjoy your life as well.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26863441 - 08/04/20 08:38 PM (10 days, 11 hours ago)

is the alien possession thing over then?


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26863748 - 08/05/20 02:52 AM (10 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is the alien possession thing over then?




Yes. We are safe. You can visit the outer layers of hyperspace.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26863752 - 08/05/20 03:00 AM (10 days, 5 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I tend to believe the monsters are human.




They come from the same source. It’s the one Mind. (Atman, God, whatever)

Malicious creatures aren’t created by intention. They are almost like accidents. I shouldn’t call them dark because dark is a design pattern. Not all dark creatures want to do harm.

This reality (planet Earth) is a hiding place. It’s a bunker. The harmful entities cannot enter and can’t be created here. That’s why powers are restricted. That’s the price.

Of course, there are "bad people". It’s necessary. Someone has to run the government and the Amazon.

But it’s nothing compared to some other dimensions.

It has a few builtin timers though. Global warming is one of them. It wasn’t meant to last long, and it isn’t old either. History is an illusion.

We might need a new one if it gets too hot.

Until that, have fun.

❤️


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26870916 - 08/09/20 02:44 AM (6 days, 5 hours ago)

Tonight I had the first panic attack of my life.

I have a likely mutant GT strain that can put me into a DMT-like hyperspace for hours. Although I believe all mushroom varieties are different and have their personalities, this strain is like a different species.

I put too much of it on the scale while I was on the phone. To me, 3.3g is between a high dose and overdose if the strain is potent. I was worried also because lately, I see more and more entities when I’m sober. Before I took the mushrooms, I knew that everything that’s needed to make me freak out was present.

I adore perfection.

"Good", I said, and I drunk the tea and lied on the bed. There was no delay, no warning, no onset. In a few minutes, it put me in the middle of the hyperspace that’s as close to DMT as mushroom can take me there.

It was totally cool. Everyone looked funny and almost everyone looked friendly.

Except for I couldn’t breathe.

Normally, the suffocating feeling comes either when I go too far from Earth or when I encounter entities who want to harm me. It’s not a big deal. I open my eyes, and I’m back in my room. Everything is fine.

In such a case, the only regret is that when I open my eyes, the movie is interrupted, and it won’t restart from the same point when I close my eyes again. The mushrooms are like me. They hate interruptions.

Yesterday, opening my eyes didn't help. I was back in the room. It looked normal for a mushroom trip. And I couldn’t breathe.

I closed my eyes again. I was still in hyperspace with the same entities. They made a few steps backward. They walked away from me. They put their hands or limbs into the air. (I mean those who had any kind of limbs).

"We don’t want to hurt you!", they said. They looked as friendly as possible. Some of them even looked scared.

"I know. I know it. It didn’t cross my mind for a second you wanted to do anything bad. I was not scared. I’m still not scared. But I can’t breathe."

This was going for maybe a half an hour that seemed an eternity. Most of the time I knew I would survive. I had more than a hundred trips. I’ve seen scary things. It was bugging me that I didn’t see and didn’t think of anything scary this time.

Somewhere in the middle of it, I realized it was a panic attack. It didn’t help. The entities stayed with me to support me. They didn’t look bad in any way.

Only when the panic attack ended, I understood what happened.

The alien demon was back.

We are trapped again.

In my true form, I’m scary. I’m a monster. But this creature is made of the solidified liquid of the black river in the deepest core of the Abyss.

It has a fear aura that’s so powerful one doesn’t need to see the creature to freak out. One doesn’t need to know that the creature is there. It’s enough if it’s there, hiding behind the outer layer of this reality.

For a moment, I thought it already ate me. My room looked like its stomach from the inside.

Soon, I understood it didn’t eat me. I put it back to where it used to be before I killed it a few days ago.

It seems it has to be there. Well, it’s there.

The funny fact is the trip was quite pleasant after the panic attack. I regret I missed the peak and could not play with the hyperspace entities, but my face melted into the Universe again. That was cool.

Now, a few hours later, I find it hilarious.

"We don’t want to hurt you", they say. They step backwards and raise their hands.
"I know. I didn’t think you wanted to hurt me. I just can’t breathe".

My girlfriend is right. I must be enjoying this otherwise I wouldn’t do it.

Except for I couldn’t move and couldn’t breathe, it was fun.


Edited by Vylie (08/09/20 03:12 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26870954 - 08/09/20 04:00 AM (6 days, 4 hours ago)

Have you any thoughts as to why you are creating such a fearful thing?

I find mushrooms and DMT remarkably similar although I haven't been able to do either for a long time.  I hear the same voices on either one.  Any sound in the air gets turned into those voices.  Water dripping from the faucet becomes the voices, whispering little rhymes.  I'd like to meet whomever is speaking but I think I'm afraid to.  The last few times I tried DMT I got instant panic and had to sit up and abort.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Forrester]
    #26871022 - 08/09/20 05:58 AM (6 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

vylie:...
In such a case, the only regret is that when I open my eyes, the movie is interrupted, and it won’t restart from the same point when I close my eyes again. The mushrooms are like me. They hate interruptions.
...



when you break the linkages that hold you in dream space, you need to seduce them to return - only rarely does the same dream pick up exactly where you want it to.

the seduction of the dream is by absorption, sustained presence at the threshold of a dream is enough. Any show of impatience is superfluous, like vanity.

I find this same absorptive seduction, the one that restores a dream, works as well when assigned to the center of fear, the monster or whatever, made from your same dreamstuff as the rest, cannot be escaped by running but can by keeping still.

no running, no panic, no impatience, easy to begin again.

glad you enjoyed a bit of rough trade in the safety of your own mind.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Forrester]
    #26871116 - 08/09/20 07:45 AM (6 days, 15 minutes ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Have you any thoughts as to why you are creating such a fearful thing?





I know it. Writing down the main reason would ruin the opportunity to see your answer to my question.

I would prefer to disclose it after you answer it since they are related.

There were additional reasons:

* GT is the most demonic variety for me
* This post. When I read it yesterday, I thought the alien demon could be back.
* The fact that I started seeing entities in the air flying around me when I am sober. I knew it would happen, but it shocked me when it started about a week ago.

Quote:

I find mushrooms and DMT remarkably similar although I haven't been able to do either for a long time.  I hear the same voices on either one.  Any sound in the air gets turned into those voices.  Water dripping from the faucet becomes the voices, whispering little rhymes.  I'd like to meet whomever is speaking but I think I'm afraid to.  The last few times I tried DMT I got instant panic and had to sit up and abort.




I almost never hear voices on my trips, but the vaped DMT can be hard. It comes too fast. Most of the time, I take it as "pharma". It’s like ayahuasca without the parts that make you vomit. (Pharmahuasca). I make it from freebase DMT and Syrian rue HCL extract. It’s between the DMT and the mushroom experience, and it lasts longer than vaped DMT.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26871121 - 08/09/20 07:47 AM (6 days, 13 minutes ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I can only see darkness against something brighter. but if everything is dark, I see at least two worlds, one all sparkly bits, and one which refelcts what I am doing based upon memories of doing it in light.

that said,

if I look at the same view for a few minutes, unchanging aspects of the view usually disappear. My reflex driven consciousness prefers to stay with the part that is changing.





It used to be like that for me for decades.

That was the period when I didn’t see 2-3 meter long transparent dragons flying around me with open eyes and a sober mind.

Quote:


when you break the linkages that hold you in dream space, you need to seduce them to return - only rarely does the same dream pick up exactly where you want it to.





When I interrupt the trip movie, the mushroom gets frustrated. When I close my eyes, it almost always gives me something darker than what I interrupted.  I rarely do it though. I enjoy the movies.


Edited by Vylie (08/09/20 07:49 AM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Forrester]
    #26878276 - 08/13/20 10:53 AM (1 day, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Have you any thoughts as to why you are creating such a fearful thing?





I promised you an answer.

During a few mushroom trips, I had an insight that I created this reality to save myself from a creature that caught me unguarded.

I saw myself living in words where anything could be a demon, and we always had to be careful, sleep alone, touch as few things as possible.

People told me a few times that these might have been hallucinations, like if I didn’t consider that option already five hundred times before I talked about the experience to others.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26878625 - 08/13/20 01:52 PM (1 day, 18 hours ago)

How could the creature that caught you unguarded come from anything other than your own psyche?  - especially seeing as how it was experienced within a trip?

Esp in a Setting of: Solo trip in the dark with instrumental music only.  I just don’t see how you can continue to believe it to be literal and not symbolic.  It’s entirely brain dependent.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (08/13/20 04:20 PM)


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26878845 - 08/13/20 04:00 PM (1 day, 16 hours ago)

My thoughts as well.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Forrester]
    #26879024 - 08/13/20 06:13 PM (1 day, 13 hours ago)

Classic example of making the error of misattributing self-generated actions to an external source.  Easily accomplished and not entirely uncommon when the brain is influenced by psychedelics. If you don’t see through the trick/mechanism to it you can easily end up falling prey to delusion.



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