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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26857552 - 08/01/20 05:02 PM (13 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
mental objects include:
sensations
perceptions
extended associative memories
progressions
language
ideas
attitudes
personality constructs and learned routines, etc.





OMG, when I saw your list, for a moment, I thought you were quoting the page I read today afternoon.

"You may experience any of the following:

Sense of transcending time or space
Strange plants or plantlike forms
The universe of formless vibration
Strange machines
Alien music
Alien languages, understandable or not
Intelligent entities in a variety of forms"

They are quite similar, aren’t they?

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
ego is not a distorted perception. it is a distorted sense of self importance, making excuses for defensive habits.




How could anyone who isn’t me know whether my sense of my importance is distorted?



both are lists - both trying to be general and inclusive of experience element types. (I think mine is simpler, but I am trying to be simple and all inclusive of all events in mind)

to the other matter
if you are being defensive, you are probably taking yourself too seriously, egoic-ly, unless you are actually in danger and it would be really bad not to defend.


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26858174 - 08/02/20 05:06 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
It is like telling other characters in a dream, that it is all a dream. Except in this case waking up means disappearing. And as everything in a dream is in a sense already oneself (one's own fantasy) simply realizing its a dream should relieve the necessity of taking any action.




So, what if Nirvana and Absolut are names of the state of the subconsciousness after sleeper wakes up?

What if Maya is the dream?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 05:06 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26858176 - 08/02/20 05:09 AM (13 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

both are lists - both trying to be general and inclusive of experience element types. (I think mine is simpler, but I am trying to be simple and all inclusive of all events in mind)

to the other matter
if you are being defensive, you are probably taking yourself too seriously, egoic-ly, unless you are actually in danger and it would be really bad not to defend.




I think the two lists look similar because both worlds are real in the same amount.

As for the latter, you started talking about something else. The question wasn’t about defense but importance.


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 05:22 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Rahz]
    #26858182 - 08/02/20 05:22 AM (13 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

You could use them as food or you could use their collective consciousness like a computer.




An alien species that could come here would already be producing the most ideal food for themselves. They would also have computers that dwarf humanity. No guarantees but the idea they would need or want to harvest us is the more romantic idea.




I think there might have been a misunderstanding. Why would they need to come here? From where would they need to come?

Ahh. I think you believe the stars and galaxies exist. You believe there is distance. What if the aliens are around us? What if they are behind the walls of your room?

Being advanced isn’t an argument against harvesting. It’s an argument for harvesting. I guess you consider yourself more advanced than a salad. Can you see my point?

Quote:


Quote:

It doesn’t change the fact the special relativity cannot be applied to them. The theory is based on a hypothesis about light. If it cannot be applied to light, then what can it be applied to?

The constant speed of the light is a hypothesis.




Hmm. I though special relativity could be applied to anything that was moving.




It can’t be applied to light because then light would have either zero or incalculable energy. That’s where we started.

Quote:


Quote:

If it expands at the same speed, it violates that law due to the potential energy. It is working against gravity. It should slow down just like you slow down after you jump. If you exceed the escape velocity, you will still slow down.

If it expands at an increasing speed, it also violates that law due to the increasing kinetic energy of the objects.




I would say it appears to violate known laws. There are various candidates to explain this phenomena, or perhaps it's some un thought of reason. More testing and discovery is necessary. Either the laws are wrong or there are unseen effects that can explain within the context of scientific law.




If you go to the wrong direction, and you do more testing, you will get more lost.

The "proofs" of how kinetic and potential energy work are much stronger than the "proof" that the Universe is expanding. Shouldn’t we maybe consider it at least that it’s not expanding at all?

(I put the "proofs" into quotes because nothing can be proven.)

Quote:


Quote:

So, if the parts didn’t move compared to each other, then why is there a redshift?




Objects in the observable universe do move relative to one another, but not at the speed of light. The relationships must be less than the speed of light in order to observe a redshift, but with enough distance the relative movement could exceed the speed of light in which case that light will never reach us.




Don’t you see the flaw? You just wrote that the relative speed exceeds the speed of the light. So, goodbye relativity theory.

Quote:


Quote:

Do you have an example of a language getting more complex?




I would compare it to programming languages which are ultimately compiled into machine language. Words and usage seem like things which must evolve through practice even though there is/was a platform which is both more static and more complex.




I like your example not only because it proves my point but also because I didn’t think of it.

Yes, modern programming languages are getting simpler too.

Quote:


Quote:

It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".




Because the illusion of self causes suffering and the objective of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.




Suffering is an illusion. Isn’t it?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 05:25 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858208 - 08/02/20 06:16 AM (13 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote: "It’s interesting but it doesn’t explain why would a Buddhist teach others to Buddhism if there are no selves or "others".

Because the illusion of self causes suffering and the objective of Buddhism is liberation from suffering.

Suffering is an illusion. Isn’t it? "

If one over thinks the whole business it is full of contradictions ... yet

.    A simple answer (re Suffering) is: if it were an illusion heroin would not be addictive.

.    Why teach it?  Again a simple answer is: for the same reason people take psychedelics, and for the same reason people share psychedelics.

.    No need to over think it. The "peace that passeth understanding', cannot be found thru conceptual thought alone, hence meditation.

.  Meditation and its ability to produce altered states, and increase equanimity was well known in India before Buddha and was practiced by yogis, hindus, and sadhus.
.  Buddha wanted to find permanent relief from stress, for all, and an understanding of how & why it arises and ceases, and what this information tells us about how we should live.
.  This is why he taught the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, and didn't just hand out mantras.
.  The 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, are pretty straight forward, and can easily be found on the internet by anyone seriously interested in the subject. There is also more commentary on Buddhist teachings (on the internet, all free, both as audio and text files, by experts) than anyone could absorb in a life time, yet some questions can only be answered by trying it out for oneself.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26858246 - 08/02/20 07:09 AM (13 days, 8 minutes ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
If one over thinks the whole business it is full of contradictions ... yet

.    A simple answer (re Suffering) is: if it were an illusion heroin would not be addictive.

.    Why teach it?  Again a simple answer is: for the same reason people take psychedelics, and for the same reason people share psychedelics.

.    No need to over think it. The "peace that passeth understanding', cannot be found thru conceptual thought alone, hence meditation.

.  Meditation and its ability to produce altered states, and increase equanimity was well known in India before Buddha and was practiced by yogis, hindus, and sadhus.
.  Buddha wanted to find permanent relief from stress, for all, and an understanding of how & why it arises and ceases, and what this information tells us about how we should live.
.  This is why he taught the 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, and didn't just hand out mantras.
.  The 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, are pretty straight forward, and can easily be found on the internet by anyone seriously interested in the subject. There is also more commentary on Buddhist teachings (on the internet, all free, both as audio and text files, by experts) than anyone could absorb in a life time, yet some questions can only be answered by trying it out for oneself.




I don’t believe there is such a thing as "overthinking".

There are right thinking and wrong thinking. I think about a topic as long as needed to find an answer that I can accept at least for a while.

If you look at the big religions, it’s easy to see that they are meant to prevent people from attaining power. "You are nothing", "Don’t desire unless you want to suffer", "God is the big boss".

Christianity is more open about it than Buddhism. Half of the Old Testament is about God freaking out of the idea that people would become like God.

(The other half of the Old Testament explains how much God likes the non-believers.)

Genesis:
'[3:22] Then the LORD God said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"'

Tower of Babylon:
'5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”'

Questions:

1. Would it be that easy to become like God?

2. Why would it be a problem?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 07:10 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: laughingdog]
    #26858261 - 08/02/20 07:18 AM (12 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said: 4 noble truths and the 8 fold path, are pretty straight forward, and can easily be found on the internet by anyone seriously interested in the subject.




True, but if I start reading it, which I almost never do but now I did, it would start poisoning my subconscious in less than a minute, if I didn’t reject it.

Normally, people wouldn’t need a religion to learn they are mortals. The purpose of religion is to tell people they are immortals. Buddhism fails at its core.

But it’s a genius work of the mind.

Think about it.

It says reincarnation is bad. One should get rid of it.

Do you know why people are Buddhists? Most of them are because they don’t want to die, and they believe at least the will reincarnate.

If Buddhism said "Don’t worry. You will reincarnate!", fewer people would follow it. It has to say, "Well, you will reincarnate, but it sux!", to convert as many people as possible.

(Think of what Agent Smith told Neo about creating a perfect Matrix only to see people kept waking up as they couldn’t believe it.)

By the way. Buddha said there was no soul.

So, what is the thing that reincarnates?


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858430 - 08/02/20 08:58 AM (12 days, 22 hours ago)

the Pali canon suttas + (suttras)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/


--------------------
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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858470 - 08/02/20 09:22 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
the Pali canon suttas + (suttras)

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/




I started reading it but I stopped at the same point that stopped me another page.

Look, I love my subconscious. She is amazing.

She is creating this beautiful world for me. She created the mountains behind my window and the lake. She created you.

Even if you and I don’t agree about Buddhism, I like you.

She gave me thousands of gifts. She created tastes, colors, smells for me. She created all the people I slept with.

She has been busy.

I love her with all my heart.

She can even create amazing non-humanoid aliens. All I have to do is eating the mushrooms she grew for me.

So, why would I ever allow any teaching to scare her about mortality?

It is my duty to protect her from the lies.

Sure, there are things I desire which are not present in this world in a physical form. Not yet.

Working on it.


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 09:25 AM)


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858476 - 08/02/20 09:24 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

I just linked it in case you ever had have a question about whether the historical buddha said or taught this or that you’d have a reference point should you ever feel inclined to dig in and look, that’s all. 

The Pali canon (Tipitaka)
The earliest systematic and most complete collection of early Buddhist sacred literature is the Pali Tipitaka (“Three Baskets”; Sanskrit: Tripitaka). Its arrangement reflects the importance that the early followers attached to the monastic life (Pali and Sanskrit: Vinaya), to the discourses of the Buddha (Pali: Sutta), and subsequently to the interest in scholasticism (Pali: Abhidhamma).



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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858487 - 08/02/20 09:28 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I just linked it so whenever you have a question about whether the historical buddha said this or that you’d have a reference, that’s all.




But if you read it, you can answer the question, if there is an answer. How can people reincarnate if they have no soul?

Behind my question, there might be an alternative explanation.

I might be unsure about it though.

I’m here to put it together with you. I can Google but what I found in Buddhism is negativity.

If I had to pick up a religion (fortunately I don't have to), the core of Hinduism would make more sense.

All religions are full of truths. That’s how one can sell a lie. One can’t sell a pack of lies without any truth in it.


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858489 - 08/02/20 09:31 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
I just linked it so whenever you have a question about whether the historical buddha said or taught this or that you’d have a reference for if you ever felt inclined to dig in and search, that’s all. 





I understand. Maybe I was not clear. I’m glad you helped. Thank you.

I was just wondering do you want to believe that you cannot have desires and satisfaction without suffering and emptiness?

Why would anyone want to believe that?


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858491 - 08/02/20 09:31 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

It has nothing to do with what I want to believe or with picking a religion.  If you want to know what actually is said - you can read the Tipitaka.  Most general google searches are not specifically going to bring up suttas - neither will they likely give a proper understanding.  There’s a lot of hear say about Buddhism and the Historical Buddha and related philosophy, teachings, and practices. 


It’s not a very good hobby nor is it meant to be a decorative thing for ones life, oh stream-winner.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (08/02/20 09:44 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858521 - 08/02/20 09:47 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
It’s not a very good hobby nor is it meant to be a decorative thing for ones life, oh stream-winner.




I guess you also don’t know how one could reincarnate without having a soul.

If I understand something, I can summarize it for you in one, three, or five sentences, depending on your desire. I can do it about anything I understand.

It seems to me that no one whom I asked so far understood how one could reincarnate without a soul. That means, no one could show it to me that it made sense. So would I read a book about it?


Edited by Vylie (08/02/20 09:48 AM)


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858525 - 08/02/20 09:50 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN38.html

Inform yourself.  But it’s one of those things that takes time.  Unless you are familiar with dependent co-arising, the four-nutriments, the elements, the 5 skhandas, 4 noble truths,  noble 8 fold path - etc etc as they themselves are taught from within the context of Buddhist suttas and other records -  it’s going to give you a headache b/c if you assume their meaning without actually knowing it will lead to wrong understanding - which helps no one - and leads to confusion - wrong view.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (08/02/20 10:09 AM)


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OfflineVylie
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26858561 - 08/02/20 10:18 AM (12 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/MN/MN38.html

Inform yourself.  But it’s one of those things that takes time.




Let me show examples of a summary:

Lord of the Rings:
"An object must be moved from point A to point B".

Matrix:
"The invading aliens made humans believe they were AI created by the humans who can’t even build an auto-aim gun to shoot down the aliens".

Hinduism:
The eternal reality is creating the ephemeral world.


I will try to read it but if the consciousness can reborn then what’s the difference between the soul and the consciousness?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26858855 - 08/02/20 12:59 PM (12 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Vylie said:
I will try to read it but if the consciousness can reborn then what’s the difference between the soul and the consciousness?




I think the most common conceptualization of the difference between the terms "spirit" and "soul" is that spirit is pure consciousness -- i.e., the "substance" of which consciousness is made -- and soul is the signature of consciousness of an individual person or entity. You could say soul is like a person's spiritual and existential fingerprint.

:twocents:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26859064 - 08/02/20 02:32 PM (12 days, 16 hours ago)

vylie
the subconscious is a myth.

there is no subconscious. it was part of a cosmology put forth by Freud and it is still undermining all of modern psychology.

yes we have memory
yes we have trauma
but we do not have to create a new construct beyond the conscious mind itself. Everything in mind is consciousness. including all the partial perceptions, and partial recollections. nothing is part of any other construct than being and memory.  Memory has impact on being because that is how perception works, it is always in terms of what you already have been through.


in conscious mind some stuff is clear and some stuff is less central in the moment.

there is no one thing that encompasses all that is not central to the moment except the aggregate of all memory.

what is central in the moment is conscious. there is nothing in the user manual for consciousness that means you get to understand everything, but that is not an excuse to call all of what is mysterious subconscious.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26859077 - 08/02/20 02:42 PM (12 days, 16 hours ago)

I disagree.

The subconscious is just the part of you that still knows all of what your conscious mind has denied out of fear.


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Re: The right time to harvest [Re: Vylie]
    #26859134 - 08/02/20 03:15 PM (12 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Why would they need to come here? From where would they need to come?

Ahh. I think you believe the stars and galaxies exist. You believe there is distance. What if the aliens are around us? What if they are behind the walls of your room?




I think energy is required to move from one location to another. Whether distance is real isn't as important as the effort involved. Do you suspect aliens are behind the walls?

Quote:

Being advanced isn’t an argument against harvesting. It’s an argument for harvesting. I guess you consider yourself more advanced than a salad. Can you see my point?




Yes I see your point but there's nothing special about humans. Of course, if aliens were behind the walls they might snack on us, but if they're able to traverse the galaxy they would also have a food source, and along with that technology they would have a refined food source. Humans would be low quality.

Quote:

It can’t be applied to light because then light would have either zero or incalculable energy. That’s where we started.




The rest mass of light is zero but it does have momentum and wavelength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_energy#Physical_properties

Quote:

Shouldn’t we maybe consider it at least that it’s not expanding at all?




Sure. How do you explain the cosmological redshift?

Quote:

Don’t you see the flaw? You just wrote that the relative speed exceeds the speed of the light. So, goodbye relativity theory.




You're still equating the expansion with movement through a medium. I'm not a physicist but it seems reasonable to me that stretching a medium is different than moving through it.

Quote:

Suffering is an illusion. Isn’t it?




In a sense, but I would say that suffering is the product of an illusion. Pain is real enough.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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