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The Common Man
The peasantry

Registered: 07/26/17
Posts: 79
Loc: most of the world
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air filter SAB - is this guy crazy?
#26847144 - 07/27/20 04:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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seagu

Registered: 03/03/18
Posts: 952
Last seen: 14 hours, 17 minutes
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Looks cool for hobby level grows. I had thought of building something like that before. And I have seen videos of others doing something similar that worked he said so.. 
You would have difficulty with bags because of its height but.. like I said looks cool for hobby level grows. Simple agar work. Jar work. stuff like that.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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This totally defeats the purpose of a still air box, still air is the defining trait of a SAB. Once turbulent flow is introduced, no matter how filtered, it will invariably kick up the contaminants that would have otherwise lain motionless on the floor and walls into an invisible hurricane of mold and bacterial spores which will find their way into your work.
A+ for effort but this individual has failed to thoroughly think through all of the variables.
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seagu

Registered: 03/03/18
Posts: 952
Last seen: 14 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26847317 - 07/27/20 08:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think he was making a SAB. Sometimes flow hoods have sides and top shields. I know someone that runs one with a cloth ceiling about 6-12" above the flow hood. They sometimes even push against the ceiling during work on purpose... They have zero contamination issues. If this guy takes some 70% and sprays the inside before doing the work while the HEPA is on.. I can't say for sure it would work as I haven't tried it but.....
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: seagu]
#26847328 - 07/27/20 08:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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There is no amount of sanitization that can render that tote (call it whatever you like) free of contaminants, the tote is literally covered in aerosol particulate matter, and not just the tote but also the poly tubing he's using to funnel air into that box.
A SAB is designed to use gravity and the absence of turbulence to allow any contaminant particles to settle, this gives you the opportunity, providing you don't make unnecessary movements, to quickly open a sterile vessel for tissue cultures and spawning. By introducing even highly filtered turbulent flow you will certainly disrupt this otherwise still environment and dislodge and make airborne otherwise stationary particles. This design may "work", that is to say that one can get away with just about anything up to and including open air inoculation but this unit will be the source of an increase in his rates of contamination.
By definition he is not making a SAB, what he is building however is a very fancy vector for contamination.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (07/27/20 02:32 PM)
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seagu

Registered: 03/03/18
Posts: 952
Last seen: 14 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26847645 - 07/27/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok. I will rephrase it.. I know he wasn't building a SAB. I have seen others build something similar that has worked well with no issues that were even more rigged than this. But the way to find out is to ask him what his contamination rates are... You say it can't work, yet there have been people who have done it..
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: seagu]
#26847758 - 07/27/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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There are people who inoculate liquid culture in open air in their kitchen, sterilize grain in kitchen ovens, people grow kings in cased monotubs with humidifiers.
as I said earlier, you can get away with nearly anything for a while. Some things work better than others, "can" is not synonymous with "should"
The OP asked for our thoughts, he received my educated commentary.
Yes you can use this contraption but the best practice for long term success is to use a proper still air box or a horizontal clean bench, DIY or otherwise. Never shall the Twain meet.
If you don't trust me perhaps you can run it past a TC for clarity, I already know what the answer will be. What I've said is objectively true, this is not simply my subjective opinion.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (07/27/20 12:36 PM)
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26848068 - 07/27/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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We can theorize all day but I'll wait to hear from someone who uses one on a regular basis.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Forrester]
#26848122 - 07/27/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It isn't just theory, it has been borne out in every day practice by amateur growers all the way up to professional microbiologists. Blowing non sterile air into a non sterile environment does not qualify as sterile work.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,850
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 4 days, 21 hours
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Forrester]
#26848137 - 07/27/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26848231 - 07/27/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you're going to invest in mushroom cultivation as a business or just a hobby the investment should still be a good one. Spend money on a unit that is capable of actual laminar flow, every noob (including myself) at one point or another tries to reinvent the wheel without having learned first why the wheel actually works as is.
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 9,351
Loc: Northeast USA
Last seen: 1 month, 12 days
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26848256 - 07/27/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Oh I don't have sound on my computer, didn't realize it wasn't even a real filter
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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seagu

Registered: 03/03/18
Posts: 952
Last seen: 14 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Forrester]
#26848393 - 07/27/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Paces at High Noon. 
He is blowing clean HEPA 99.97% filtered air through.. Which is why it can work. There are past posts of people doing it successfully. And ya know people like to make stuff experiment. Which is how we get all sorts of cool new info. In mushrooms sometimes it is wise to go against "common" thought because sometimes its bad info passed or assumed on because of one person and so nobody tries and everyone assumes something won't work.. but lo and behold someone thinks something along the lines of well they probably did it this way and is why it failed so let me tweak the test parameters this way and it might work.. and bammo Something new is discovered. I've seen it myself. And take Stamets' book..prime example.. great contributor to Mushrooms but a lot of his info in his book is dated and debunked or whatnot now. 
Someone should email the guy who made the video and ask him his success rate...
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: seagu]
#26848421 - 07/27/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm sorry, friend, but you are dead wrong.
The mods and TCs have a lot of work on their hands keeping the forum not only running smoothly but also ensuring that good info is being circulated. We all do our part. The video is outright bad practice.
You absolutely cannot expect to achieve sterile flow in a turbulent non sterile environment. This is actually not possible. The inner and outer surfaces of everything down flow from that filter is laden with contamination. The poly tubing, the plastic tote (SAB) the arm hole rings, everything, including your own arms and hands once inserted into the box. Even if his blower and filter combo were capable of laminar flow (they're not, btw) that laminar flow would become turbulent flow while traveling down the tubing towards the SAB which would also be laden with unseen contamination. Chaotic turbulence will undoubtedly kick up these contaminants within the tote/tubing allowing it to enter your work.
You can't even safely place your hand over a petri dish without risking contamination in a still environment, how much worse with a tornado of wind blowing around in there.
This is 100% the case. Just think it through for a second.
Edit*
Take a look at this image showing laminar flow becoming turbulent flow when an object has been placed within the flow. Even with a flowhood you risk contamination getting into your work via turbulence.
Edited by Stipe-n Cap (07/27/20 06:30 PM)
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seagu

Registered: 03/03/18
Posts: 952
Last seen: 14 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26848481 - 07/27/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yea, sorry this isn't Cultivation. Never has been. And I have thought about it.. and I remember seeing past posts of people making similar stuff that worked. So, I can think about it some more and remember the past posts... Still going to remember them. Ghetto HEPA flow setups, however the titles are. People have done HEPA filtered successfully in trash bags this way even.. talk about turbulent. But it worked great for the guy that made and used it. Are they worth it? You'd have to ask the people that have made them and used them successfully. There is no way you can convince me it can't work because I have seen posts of people doing it.
Experimentation is critical to mushroom knowledge and growth. If we all stayed cookie cutter and never tried to go and prove something wrong, we wouldn't have made it as far as we have.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: seagu]
#26848496 - 07/27/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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athos56
Stranger



Registered: 06/13/20
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26851835 - 07/29/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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My take is that you can make something that works 90% of the time and 90% of the time your good. If that's me, then ok 90% is fine. I saw a guy who put a filter on a box fan and "proved" it worked with open dishes. It could work ok for him. I could also see hundreds of dollars of work/time going up in smoke that one time you rolled a 5 of your 100 sided dice. As with any DIY, YMMV, take the risk, roll the dice, win your prize.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: athos56]
#26851891 - 07/29/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It is absolutely irrelevant if the cultivator in that video can achieve any level of success with that design, what is relevant is that the design defeats the purpose of the objective that he is trying to achieve, unless of course he is trying to achieve a success rate equivalent to chance or to open air inoculation.
Any amount of success is not success. The above design is NOT laminar flow, nor is the above design still air. Introducing non sterile turbulence to an enclosed non sterile environment is asinine. If the argument is that the air being introduced is sterile or is laminar flow then adding sterile laminar flow to an enclosed non sterile environment is even more asinine. No matter how you skin this cat, that design is full retard.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



Registered: 01/22/17
Posts: 3,850
Loc: Virginia, USA
Last seen: 4 days, 21 hours
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#26851917 - 07/29/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Could you be more clear? What you don't like the design? I am joking!!
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: air filter SAB - is this guy crazy? [Re: SHROOMSISAY01]
#26851950 - 07/29/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you don't skull fuck these bad ideas with detailed explanations as to why they suck, they have a way of getting into noob hands only to manifest themselves in future threads titled: "why doesn't my laminar SAB work?"... I know it works because I saw it on YouTube.
; )
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