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OfflineLady_Sage
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Cakes better than monotub. . .why?
    #26847600 - 07/27/20 10:32 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I did a search, but am not finding much on this specific question. So far, I've had better results with cakes than the (one) monotub I've done. Why is that? What adjustments can I make that will improve the monotub results?

What I've found is that the cakes produced larger, healthier fruits. The FC I was using was an unmodified tub, which had perlite at the bottom, and was being manually fanned/misted. I've used pre-made substrate/jars as well as homemade - pf tek. The monotub is a. . .monotub. Was spawned with fully colonized rye berries, to a coir/verm mix.

Surprisingly, the only tub was PE, which did better on cakes, which I've come to understand is typically not the case. I also have a few other varieties here - waiting to do tubs on those. I have Amazon colonizing now, and hopefully can make some adjustments for better results. Ideas?


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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage] * 1
    #26847711 - 07/27/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe this will help
Quote:

SpitballJedi said:
This is part of my series "The Basics"
So, which is better? Should I use monotubs or SGFC?

It depends on how you quantify "better". They both have pros and cons and it really depends on finances, access to materials and resources, and what you want to get out of it.

Both methods have common elements such as sterilizing, using a SAB or Flowhood, needing spores or culture, a fruiting chamber, space to grow, and time and so on.

Here's a simple breakdown to help you decide:

Process for growing cakes:
Inoculate sterile cakes with spores
Fruit cakes in a SGFC

Pros:
Cakes can be steam sterilized in a pot of boiling water, so you don't need a pressure cooker. This makes it one of the cheapest ways to get in your first grows.
Most of the materials are pretty easy to find and are relatively cheap.
Because you are growing individual cakes, all your eggs are not in one basket. If you lose a cake to contamination, you still have more cakes.
You can have a good success rate with using spores directly to the cakes without cleaning the spores on agar first.
A good learning tool for beginners to get an understanding of growth cycles and what things are supposed to look like.

Cons:
Babysitting. You will need to mist the cakes on a regular basis to keep them from drying out. This means no going away for the weekend while your cakes are in fruiting.
All those holes in a SGFC are a PITA to make.
Lower yields for most beginners.

Process for monotubs (my recommendations)
Put spores on agar and make a clean culture through transfers
Inoculate sterile grains with agar
Mix colonized grains with bulk substrate
Let colonize
Fruit

Pros:
Yields. You can get 4-6 dry ounces from one monotub. 6-8 ounces is average and you can get even more as your skills improve, you get a good set of genetics, and use more spawn.
Automation. Monotubs don't need babysitting. Generally, there is no misting involved before the first flush. We refereed to monos as "set and forget". Once you know the timing, yo can leave for several days without having to even look at it.

Cons:
Cleaning spores on agar takes time and other materials, but it greatly increases your success rate over just putting spores directly on grains. It's not required, but I highly recommend using agar.
You really need to use a pressure cooker for sterilizing grains. This costs money.
All of your eggs are in one basket. On contaminated jar in your mono ruins the entire tub. (start with agar)

I mentioned before, there is a a way to combine some of the principles of both methods. You can make grain spawn and mix individual jars with bulk substrate in individual trays and either put them in a SGFC or a monotub.

However you do it, preparing grain spawn really requires a PC and that seems to be a big determining factor for many people. The other big factor is success with spores vs using agar. You can certainly use spores straight to grains, but I recommend agar first.


SAB




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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96] * 2
    #26847720 - 07/27/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Also PE is not a good variety to do your first monotub with. They tend to blob and require a casing layer and more experience.


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26847738 - 07/27/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------


Edited by Alexthegreat (07/27/20 12:00 PM)


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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Alexthegreat]
    #26847764 - 07/27/20 12:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah In the OP there basically using the same thing but with perlite in the bottom instead. I wasn’t suggesting a SGFC but just showing pros and cons of monotubs and using cakes.

If you really want to have good results with mono tubs you need to get into Agar.


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Consuming consumes a man That was never a purpose of life To only crave for material joys Is believing the lie - Mellow Mood


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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26847828 - 07/27/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Do you leave an air gap at the top of your unmodified tub for your cakes?


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26847944 - 07/27/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't really want to do more cakes, bit was having better results with them. But those didn't really answer my question, which is- what do I do to get better results from the monotub? The fruits are much smaller than the cakes, in comparison.

All but the first cakes were injected with an LC isolated from specific fruits. The tubs were created with the same LC used. There was a casing layer used for the PE tub, and I haven't been having blobbing issues- just smaller fruits. The PE produced better on the cakes...


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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26847975 - 07/27/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

PE is not a good variety for your first monotub... also it can be many variables that make a monotub successful. The most important thing is clean spawn. Was this LC made from clean agar?


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26848040 - 07/27/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The lc was made with a biopsy of fruits that I wanted to keep. I haven't been having contamination issues. What are some variables that could help the tubs?


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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26848215 - 07/27/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

If your LC was made with agar then you would know it’s completely clean. If your tub didn’t fruit very well it was possibly bacterial contamination which won’t always ruin your grow but it can make it fruit poorly. Clean spawn is the first step to a successful tub. Are you making your own grain jars or buying it? If your buying it that could be your problem right there. Second you need a substrate that’s at a good field capacity. Next is a good monotub design. After that you pretty much need to master surface conditions and you will have a good grow. Here’s some teks that will help:

Pastywhyte’s Easy Agar Tek
No Cook WBS
Spitball’s Quick Rye Prep
Lids
Elementary Coir Tek
Basic Principles of a Monotub
Spitball’s Monotub Tek
Ez Micropore Dialed Monos
Spawning to Bulk and Fruiting
Proper Surface Moisture
Read all of these a couple of times and you will be good to go.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26848305 - 07/27/20 04:19 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, will take some time to look at those, thanks. Yes, I have been making my own grain jars.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26848441 - 07/27/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

So, I took some time to read through those. I pasteurize my sub in the oven, but am otherwise doing things pretty similar. Using micropore tape on the holes. Thinking I may need to open the top holes a bit more.

Will more FAE promote bigger fruits? When I originally posted, I was thinking it may have been a difference in nutrients of the brf cakes compared to the coir/verm.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26848444 - 07/27/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The PE tub is on its second flush. The fruits look healthy and there was a good pinset- they're just smaller than I'm used to.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26848596 - 07/27/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

PE probably blobbed out.

Other then that I’d say it’s just your sample size of one grow. Sometimes you get bad genetics or maybe spawn was off. Run a few more and see how it goes.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26848616 - 07/27/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I have some aborts, but no blobs. That one corner looks a little dry, too. It's only the one tub. I've done a couple dozen cakes as well, using the same culture, that got better results than this...



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OfflineMadscience039
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26848638 - 07/27/20 07:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Those need FAE man.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Madscience039]
    #26848648 - 07/27/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks. I did remove some of the micropore tape from the top holes today. Had a feeling that may at least be part of the issue... although I feel like these get way more air than I was giving the cakes with manual fanning. The cakes were producing some decent sized fruits, up to 34g, fresh for a single fruit. So, I'm just confused by why these are having trouble with more air. Different environment, I guess.


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OfflineSFS96
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26849028 - 07/27/20 11:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Run some more tubs with different varieties and see how it goes. You will probably get some monsters third and fourth flush.


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InvisibleSrirachi
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26849085 - 07/28/20 12:32 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lady_Sage said:
what do I do to get better results from the monotub?




Your SGFC has FAE... :takingnotes:


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Srirachi]
    #26849276 - 07/28/20 05:22 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
Quote:

Lady_Sage said:
what do I do to get better results from the monotub?




Your SGFC has FAE... :takingnotes:




I was using an unmodified tub for the cakes and manually fanning, as I said... so, no it doesn't.

I do have a tub of Amazon colonizing now, but was hoping to make any tweaks that need to be made before setting it to fruit. Sounds like the fae may be the biggest issue from what I'm hearing, so I'll give that attention. Thanks!


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26849432 - 07/28/20 08:16 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I have to admit that I misread- I thought your mono was unmodified. I am not sure why you'd do cakes that way, but damned if it didn't work anyway. I still suspect FAE is the main contributor to your odd observations though. Even with holes, monotubs are not airflow superstars. Check out this excellent thread on what happens in a monotub with holes:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21371089

What Bod reintroduced with the Unbodified Mono is basically a modification of Monstermitch's invitro bag technique, which works great for PE for some reason, and many TCs told him would not work at all. (Mitch, ya badass, if you ever come back, say hi!) For the record, he stopped coming here because of the hate directed at him, which is something this place has always been good at but that's another story for another time. I'm playing Shroomery historian today lol.

So anyway, I still think fanning and misting is the primary reason the cakes are doing better. You're wisely asking about other variables, and one I think of is that PE is a slower variety, and the nutrients in BRF are far more readily available to the myc than in a CVG sub. Another variable I see is the spawning process. I assume you are squirting spores on the cakes, and making primary spawn for the tubs.

You seem pretty tuned in to all this so I won't hypothesize about what to try, but I am mentioning things you might think on. Possibly something isn't right when you spawn, possibly your substrate mix in your tub isn't as nutritious as the PE culture you're working from wants it to be.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Srirachi]
    #26849550 - 07/28/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I've been using a LCs from clones to inoculate. I was also thinking nutrients may be playing a role, because I would have expected more consistency based on what I'm using to inoculate. Wondering how I can boost the nutrition of substrate used, as well.


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26849602 - 07/28/20 09:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:facepalm: I'm going to shut up now, because I obviously am not reading your posts :facepalm:

You said LC too. Sorry.


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Srirachi]
    #26849716 - 07/28/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How much spawn and coir/verm do u use in a tub? And what size tub?


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26850428 - 07/28/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Srirachi said:
:facepalm: I'm going to shut up now, because I obviously am not reading your posts :facepalm:

You said LC too. Sorry.




🤣🤣 ...all good...


Quote:

SFS96 said:
How much spawn and coir/verm do u use in a tub? And what size tub?




I've been doing a 3:1 ratio (Did I write those in the right order? If not, hopefully you know what I mean.) The current PE tub is smaller, apx 10x16", with a 3" substrate depth. The Amazon that's colonizing is 2:1, in a larger tub, with 4" depth.


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26850747 - 07/28/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

How thick did you case it?  It’s tough to say.. I’d say you’ll know more when the amazons do their thing... if they don’t do as expected like the PE, you’ll know it’s something with the tub set up (even though it looks like it set up correctly). 

I’ve always had PE do well on cakes too


But they were definitely a bit more finicky transitioning to monos

Definitely curious about the casing depth though

Faht


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26850971 - 07/29/20 12:23 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lady_Sage said:
Quote:

Srirachi said:
:facepalm: I'm going to shut up now, because I obviously am not reading your posts :facepalm:

You said LC too. Sorry.




🤣🤣 ...all good...


Quote:

SFS96 said:
How much spawn and coir/verm do u use in a tub? And what size tub?




I've been doing a 3:1 ratio (Did I write those in the right order? If not, hopefully you know what I mean.) The current PE tub is smaller, apx 10x16", with a 3" substrate depth. The Amazon that's colonizing is 2:1, in a larger tub, with 4" depth.




Most people label it spawn:substrate ratio but I’m not sure if it matters lol from the looks of it your using a 12qt tub (boot box) for your PE grow and you probably should have used more spawn. I normally use 2 qts of spawn and 4 quarts of substrate for a tub that size. It probably would have flushed quite a bit better with more spawn.


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OfflineLady_Sage
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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: SFS96]
    #26851193 - 07/29/20 06:37 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok. For the PE, I used 1/4" coir casing. There is more spawn in the Amazon tub, so we'll see how it goes! (I was limited by # of jars and my PC for the PE tub, but fixed that, lol...)


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: Lady_Sage]
    #26851286 - 07/29/20 07:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The 1/4” coir casing might be the reason.. for most that tub would blob out, but looks like you got lucky.. fares well for that culture actually.  I bet if you added a true casing of 50/50+ peat/verm (Or just use jiffy seed starter mix—which is basically the same thing that’s already adjust ph... personally I’d pasteurize but some use right out of the bag), you’ll get better results

Check this thread by Tedsdead out https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26528774#26528774

Nice and thick works well.. 1”-1.25”

Faht


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Re: Cakes better than monotub. . .why? [Re: fahtster]
    #26853031 - 07/30/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fahtster said:
The 1/4” coir casing might be the reason.. for most that tub would blob out, but looks like you got lucky.. fares well for that culture actually.  I bet if you added a true casing of 50/50+ peat/verm (Or just use jiffy seed starter mix—which is basically the same thing that’s already adjust ph... personally I’d pasteurize but some use right out of the bag), you’ll get better results

Check this thread by Tedsdead out https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26528774#26528774

Nice and thick works well.. 1”-1.25”

Faht




ok! Will give that a try next time- thanks!


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