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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26617543 - 04/21/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Okay, I appreciate you taking the time to give what looks at a glance like a well thought out expansion. I'll get back to you on this later and see what I think and whether I am able to add anything of value to your perspective.

As of right now I just took a benzo or two for sleep aid as my body clock is way out of whack and am slowly sinking into a state not fit for any kind of discussion. :rail2:


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26617583 - 04/21/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

heal up - rest up - thanks for heads up


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26617844 - 04/21/20 01:42 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It’s a good practice or principle for the scientist


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26621439 - 04/23/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
ok, rehashing is science.
we can only see so far.
scientists are always learning, if they don't want to learn they would not have come to this (constantly "evolving") subject.

Newton was not wrong in his findings, but he would be wrong if he claimed things about light, gravity, and atomic structure based upon his formulae, but he did not strive that far. His was good science for the time and it has been rehashed and will continue to be tuned as we learn more.

Science is all about flattening out the variables and testing  for some particular change, you may discover something in the experiments, and that may change science:
the experiment will be peer reviewed, and if it causes a shift in some fundamental understanding, everything prior should be "rehashed" or modified appropriately in some way so as to accommodate the newly discovered true facet to the nature of reality.

Science is constantly extending (and rehashing what has been extended) ratified understanding about interrelated aspects of reality, but there is no single effective equation that yet defines all that is known.

This is ok. we do know more about medicine than the shamen (pl of shaman?) of 500, 5000, and 50000 years ago, but still people die. We just don't tend to treat patients with rattles and smoke, and usually a patient can get consistent care from hospitals around the world. you could say that Shamanery has been rehashed, but this also does not invalidate the work of a shaman. I just would prefer a graduate of a recognized medical college to feel the glands in my neck.

rehashability is good in science





I get where you're coming from, I already do understand much of what you are saying believe it or not. There is no doubt in my mind that the acheivements of science and the rationalistic philosophy that has come out of the west are immense, tuning into that significantly broadened the horizons of my thinking,.

As to the tangent about shamans and the ilk my own personal belief is that much of the authentic traditions around that have been lost. The way an authentic shamanistic treatment cures is through curing the mind really, that is what they call the wholistic approach. The usage of plants as aids in their healing is not always a targeted means of curing physical ailments, but also can have to do with atmosphere and symbolism.

It is not all quackery although many people do indulge in that in order to cash in on the gullibilty of people. It's wrong to just flat out denounce it as a kind of barbarianism. The authentic practices I think do have a lot of value and in my mind modern medicine has not yet found it's own way of successfuly creating wholistic and mind curing treatments. There is much more yet to be done in the field. Psychotherapy has perhaps made some in roads but much of the problem is that it takes a person with the gifts of both wisdom and discernment to be a worthwhile therapist. That's not something you can teach through lectures, or at least only in a limited way.

What I think I take issue with as to your POV is that you seem to think that excercising healthy scepticism is something that only scientists have the right to. The layman may not know as much as the scientist, but he still has power of the very same faculties of logic and discrimination  at his disposal in order to make sense of the world around him. I think healthy scepticism is something that shouldn't be put down in anyone no matter what field they direct it to. What's important is maintaining a balanced, and not reactionary, perspective. This definitely involves according respect to the scientific method and scientists but also recognizing that scientists are only human and thus flawed and prone to error. Yet I am not suggesting throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I'll end briefly with what I consider an example of people according too much faith in science.

Lately in my county (UK) people have started to get very interested in nutrition and it seems to have been actively encouraged by the science community. I am very sceptical of much of nutrition based science and how much that can really do to benefit a person. It has turned into an unhealthy obsession for me in the past and I can't help but see reflections of that in consumer spending habits, all around me people seem to be living this exorbitant consumer spending habit and lifestyle around that, largely the champagne socialists. The amount of vitamins science seems to have put up as recommended daily intake would seem to entail an almost inexhaustable shopping list, a long with a highly stressful regime. And if that is not greed then what is? All I see is the scientific community getting behind it full throttle, or at least not speaking out against it. It's not balanced.

Sometimes I think it would be better if people were to give good current philosophers more respect and air time than scientists.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26621489 - 04/23/20 04:47 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

in addressing the whole goop mania, as regards vitamins, the source of misinformation is the Gwineth Paltro's not the scientists, but also it's the nonscientists in charge of science oriented newspaper/periodical story fulfillment targets.

Vitamins are involved in our biochemistry, yet the involvement is complex, knowing about what is happening is good, the knowledge is very young and fuzzy so far but some science really indicates value to vitamin therapies for extreme conditions like scurvy, blindness, and other conditions are also affected in known ways.

the whole idea of a market led information reporting industry is wacky. give them what they want turns into utter confusion. Maybe confusion is what they want. Maybe that's the reason we have Trump, his confusion entertainment index is through the roof.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26621568 - 04/23/20 05:58 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not sure who Gwineth Paltro is but I think I get the gist of what you mean by referring to them and theirs. However what we see (here in the UK, I understand it's not a thing in the US although I'm not sure) on the back of every food item we buy is an RDA for every vitamin which often seems excessive (to clarify I am very in support of giving calorific information and information about carbs, protein etc, the essentials). Some of them like B12 and Vit C are indeed essential vitamins but even they are quite easily provided for by a very basic diet, a bit of tomato paste and some milk amongst other staple carbs, or a supplement if you are vegan should be quite satisfactory. Yet it is listed for every kind of vitamin and mineral. This part is something that comes directly from scientists.

Science is a branch of philosophy and what we hear about science is often not sensastionalist journalism about it. Much of the advice the public receives from scientists is directly out of the cat's mouth so to speak. Science being a branch of philosophy it seems to me that they should be also taking pains to point out that multivitamins, as I hear it, have been proven to have very little, probably zero effects on people eating basically normal healthy diets. They should be used exclusively in certain situations like deficiencies or other illnesses. Yet many a time I have heard of GPs prescribing multivitamins to people to alleviate all sorts of unrelated illnesses, perhaps in desperation to provide some kind of placebo. Still I don't think the lie furthers.

Another example of me being sceptical of scientists in my day to day is in my encounters with the psychiatric profession. They are using all kinds of poorly understood science, which they seem to deliver to patients with absolute confidence (there is something wrong in this in itself), in order to push drugs onto people where in many cases it is going to be very detrimental to the patient. NOT to say that I think that there isn't any value in the drugs that they are pushing for mental health disorders in the right situation. Still in many cases they would do well to look abroad of that as a treatment strategy.

"the whole idea of a market led information reporting industry is wacky. give them what they want turns into utter confusion. Maybe confusion is what they want. Maybe that's the reason we have Trump, his confusion entertainment index is through the roof."


I don't quite follow what you are saying here. Could you elaborate on it or express it in another way?</font></font>


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26621767 - 04/23/20 08:12 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

here is a link to goop etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goop_(company)

---

The psychiatric profession is plagued by a historical expert witness phenomenon used to get murderers with connections off the hook - the insanity plea - which works but ends up fixing notions of mental illness with court mandated death sentences as a penalty to revision.

Psychiatry requires revision due to general lack of understanding of mind (except for  a huge data backlog of lost faculties of disposition, memory, sensation, and coordination with various physical traumas). Psychiatry also canonizes the impact of medicines upon disposition, memory, sensation, and coordination, although the reasoning for the use of each drug is scientifically (neurologically unproven) weak, the statistical effectiveness makes each drug more reasonable than no drug, in many cases.

In general I do believe people should be treated for mental illness to the best of our understanding instead of sitting on death row in jail; but realistically, psychiatry is mostly about getting the tough cases into a heavy drug program, and then adjusting the dosages (mostly done by nurses).

Otherwise talk therapy is damn good for the soul whatever that is. And the rest is several mysteries that we are exploring in philosophy and in the labs.  I would prefer more neurological understanding to bolster the claims of psychiatry. This disconnect should improve in the future with a lot of revision to DSM-5.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26621919 - 04/23/20 09:43 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Well this is exactly what I mean RGV. Shouldn't members of the public be using discrimination in order to have a healthy scepticism of what scientists are pushing at any one time as cures or aids for the ills of society?

I get that science is a process of revision and that looks to me like all the more reason to apply a little scepticism toward it. We are not at the end goal of understanding everything perfectly well (if that exists) now and so society needs to take what's coming out of the scientific community as it pertains to the life we are living NOW, not some future date.

Sometimes the scepticism people have towards science comes from an ill considered and narcissitic place but it shouldn't be like that and I don't feel it has to be like that.

Another example is all these mothers pushing amphetamines and other compounds on kids to get them through the schooling system. I am not convinced that this is totally beneficial although it might be worthwhile in some cases. Thing is I can't help thinking that if people were to put a little more work and funding into exploring other methods of treatment for these kids it would be a much more beneficial thing for them. After all they are in the state where they are developing and should be ripe for curative wholistic methods of treatment.

EDIT:

I'd also like to add that things such as this goop (I haven't looked into the wiki too much but I think I know the type of thing, are the most extreme forums of quackery going around. I believe I see milder reflections of this kind of obsession (I won't like to call it quackery in this case as I do think there is some good in it) all the time on our own rather more impartial state funded BBC programming over here in Britain.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


Edited by Grapefruit (04/23/20 09:57 AM)


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OfflineJappy
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Kickle]
    #26660653 - 05/09/20 06:56 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Nature is doing the right  thing, all the Time
Ex pulsing humanity seems the way to go at the moment


Edited by Jappy (06/01/20 05:47 PM)


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Offlineronaldoo
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26844272 - 07/25/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There is no cure for corona virus. You should just rely on your immune system. Eat fresh fruit and vegetables, take vitamins by link etc

And stay safe!


Edited by ronaldoo (07/29/20 01:07 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: ronaldoo]
    #26844332 - 07/25/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As long as factory farming, exposure to bushmeat in Brazil and Africa, and the wet markets in China continue, all the experts agree there will be more pandemics.

Note that even with travel & especially air travel curtailed covid continues to spread. It will be the same with future viral pandemics

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pandemic+viruses%2C+factory+farming&t=hk&ia=web

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/pandemics-history-prevention/

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=zoonotic+viruses&t=hk&ia=web

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pandemic+zoonotic+viruses%2C++wet+markets+china&t=hk&ia=web


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26844356 - 07/25/20 10:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Scary shit: Some theorize that coronavirus is similar in function to the common cold, and will not go away. I.e., that it will not be amenable to a vaccine. So there's that.

Also, some scientists are now beginning to believe that immunity may not develop in people who have had the disease. In other words, if you get it, you might not be safe from getting it again. So herd immunity then would be impossible and mean nothing.

This says nothing of the possible mutations the virus will make over time, which could be disastrous.


Just a little light reading.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26844413 - 07/25/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

some details

(and if one goes to youtube itself & clicks on the "more button" there are more links)

The COVID-19 Pandemic May Just Be a Dress Rehearsal



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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: ronaldoo]
    #26844571 - 07/25/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ronaldoo said:
There is no cure for corona virus. You should just rely on your immune system




Very true.  And if a cure or vaccine is found, there will just be another virus or super-bacteria, or something else.

We can either learn to live in sync with the rest of nature or the planet will continue to shed us like the parasites we are.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Forrester]
    #26844694 - 07/25/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

the vaccine will focus the immune system. It's that sort of thing.

but the video clarifies that the source is industrial farming of animals which enables contagious proliferation by crowding and virus mutation by stress and noxious environment while the crowding encourages the virus mutants to spread easily as well.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26844965 - 07/25/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ebola and Hanta are the exceptions to that premise.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26845014 - 07/25/20 06:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: laughingdog]
    #26845021 - 07/25/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

From the first link: ...Liberia and Sierra Leone), and in these countries there was intense transmission in urban areas."

So the problem can be associated with humans living in crowds also.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26845058 - 07/25/20 06:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not only factory farms then present a problem but also human congregations such as classrooms, and since we probably won't empty out cities I expect the advent of mutated viruses will be just another interesting article in the news for most folks. Like: Gee, Toronto got nuked, poor schmucks


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Coronavirus - the cure vs the disease [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26845187 - 07/25/20 09:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

yes we have to restructure our services to accommodate social distancing and masking, we may even have to change building codes and all forms of transportation.


the insurers will dictate our lives by policy terms.


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