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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted]
    #26843096 - 07/24/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I have article in Finnish open here as I type this about Finnish nurse working in Sweden with old corona patients.
Last 1.5 months the palliative order to all old patients with corona has been this:Strong painkiller,tranqulizer and DIURETIC.
The thesis have been that ALL OLD PEOPLE WILL DIE TO CORONA.
When you give morpfine to patient with all ready hard time breathing you are just going to kill him/her quicker.
The nurses and doctors are saying that you should not treat every old patient with covid in sweden as terminal case and make it sure they die.

Here is the link in article in finnish.

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-11433976

Will try to find one in english too for you.
Brother I swear I´m not making this up!

In nursing homes they did not even give oxygen to elders with corona! Just that medical combo!
Orders from doctors through phone without seeing patients. 11 000 elders dead.

Here is bbc article for you.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52704836

Another one.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/deadly-covid-discrimination-against-the-elderly-in-sweden/


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy] * 1
    #26843103 - 07/24/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There are do jot resuscitate orders in the USA issued. Old people are a financial burden. This is an opportunity to cull the old and the government gets to save money.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843105 - 07/24/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: budmanman]
    #26843106 - 07/24/20 05:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

we would slash healthcare in half if it was public


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843111 - 07/24/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I hear you. I believe it may be happening there. Just saying it doesn't happen here.

This is why i say there are pros and cons to every healthcare system. I support medicare for all in america, but i am not so naive as to believe that the quality of care will be as good for everyone as it is for the most well off among us right now if we go that route.  That simply isnt financially feasible.

In China you can get a heart transplant much much faster than you can here, but it is partially because they harvest the organs of political dissidents/prisoners. A pro, and a con.

In america a lot of people cant afford insulin, but the market is conducive to creating experimental drugs like remdesivir. A con, and a pro.

It sounds like youre saying that resources are so limited in finland that old people qre routinely murdered. On the other hand, i imagine young poor people with cancer are able to access treatment without going into enormous debt. A con, and a pro.

I certainly dont approve of murdering patients, including terminal ones. I do think consensual euthanasia should be legal.

Here in the usa, many terminal cancer patients arguably die of morphine overdose. The standard practice for giving morphine is typically to withhold it if you think giving it to the patient might result in their death. This is now how terminal palliative care patients are handled though. What you are treating is the pain, not the disease, because there is no way left to treat the disease. So when they ask for morphine, you give it to them, no matter what. In this way, consensual euthanasia "kind of" exists for terminally ill patients in this country, but it should be allowed for others as well IMO


Edited by morrowasted (07/24/20 05:45 PM)


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: cannabinated]
    #26843119 - 07/24/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The health authorities have received many complaints about how elderly relatives were treated. A consistent theme is that nursing home residents with suspected Covid-19 were immediately placed on palliative care and given morphine and denied supplementary oxygen and intravenous fluids and nutrition. For many this was effectively a death sentence.

    “People suffocated, it was horrible to watch. One patient asked me what I was giving him when I gave him the morphine injection, and I lied to him,” said Latifa Löfvenberg, a nurse. “Many died before their time. It was very, very difficult.”

    The problem seems to have been the guidelines issued by the National Board of Health and Welfare. At the start of the pandemic it suggested that doctors triage patients according to their so-called biological age, weighing overall health and the prospects for recovery, before making treatment decisions…
    17

    The idea was to keep hospital ICUs from being overwhelmed by older patients with a low chance of survival. However, the surge never happened. Instead, the elderly were denied access to unused facilities. “These guidelines have too often resulted in older patients being denied treatment, even when hospitals were operating below capacity,” according to critics who spoke to the WSJ. “Occupancy in the country’s intensive-care units, for instance, has yet to exceed 80%, according to government officials.”

    Yngve Gustafsson, a geriatrics specialist at Umea University, told the BMJ that the proportion of older people in respiratory care nationally was lower than at the same time a year before, even though people over 70 were the worst affected by Covid-19. He, too, was aghast at the practice of doctors prescribing a “palliative cocktail” for sick older people in care homes over the telephone.

    “Older people are routinely being given morphine and midazolam, which are respiratory-inhibiting,” he told the Svenska Dagbladet newspaper, “It’s active euthanasia, to say the least.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/deadly-covid-discrimination-against-the-elderly-in-sweden/


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #26843128 - 07/24/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Medicating patients for the purpose of imposing a chemical restraint in nursing homes definitely happens here, and it is sad. It is also why youll never find me working for a nursing home. you shouldnt put your loved ones in a nursing home without doing proper research and staying engaged with the facility during their stay. Many people just dump their family members in a facility and forget about them. In that case the family is just as complicit in negligence as anyone.

Intentionally giving someone in a nursing home downers to speed along their death is totally illegal here though and it sounds from that article like it is legal there? Thats fucked if such things are  business as usual in sweden. It isnt business as usual in the usa.


Edited by morrowasted (07/24/20 05:39 PM)


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted]
    #26843137 - 07/24/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

LeningradCowboy said:
How does your system work on situation somebody has cancer but no money or insurance?




In addition to morrows response, people can apply for federal or state run medical care.
It is usually a tedious process and a hassle to find practices that will treat under this stipulation.


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From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843144 - 07/24/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not about resources. About how you use them.
About politics and values.
Old people are put a side from the view and handled as cost effective as possible.
Too much medication on most of them.
Pharma makes money. Doctors too.
Patient suffers.

3 links about over medication for you if you have time and interest for that. Has been trend for many years all over the world with old patients in nursing homes. Usually when it is discovered and medication is dropped patients have positive effects.

And you are right it is equally wrong to dump your folks in those places.
Most people just have blind believe in system.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: budmanman]
    #26843149 - 07/24/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

budmanman said:
There are do jot resuscitate orders in the USA issued. Old people are a financial burden. This is an opportunity to cull the old and the government gets to save money.


if that is happening now, it is awful, but it certainly isnt how things are typically done, and again, speaks precisely to how bad the virus itself is in terms of creating mass numbers of high acuity patients quickly. By not wearing masks or adhering to social distancing guidelines, young people who find themselves sick and hospitalized are in effect engaging in negligent behavior that limits the total amount of overall medical resources and results in policies like triaging in a way that leaves older people out to dry


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted]
    #26843155 - 07/24/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Old people are put a side from the view and handled as cost effective as possible



then it is about resources. You are saying that the aim of the policy is to reduce the financial burden on the state of caring for the elderly

Quote:


Most people just have blind believe in system



i think it is more that ignoring certain truths is simply more convenient for most people


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843177 - 07/24/20 05:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And Im not really sure about the legality of that palliative order.
Comission has been formed to study how the crisis has been handeled. Same comission is all so put to inspect what really happened in nursing homes and caused death of 11 000.

No treatment.
Palliative combo.
People where given morphine and lied about what it is!

Swedish corona tactics just get better and better.
This is way to make something look more deadly than it is btw.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843192 - 07/24/20 05:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, i cant speak to what Sweden is doing. We dont lie to people about what they are getting. Under usual circumstances, you dont get palliative care unless you agree to it.  The covid19 patients who die in US hospitals die of coronavirus. And there are a lot of those people. There were arguably some people who were unintentionally killed by things like hydroxychloroquine or poor vent management at times, but it was never about "getting them out of the way"- mistakes were simply made in the process of figuring out how to stop people from dying of covid.

It sounds like you should find a way to get involved in patient advocacy in your country. I recall you saying you would be going to work in a nursing home soon. If you dont agree with their practices, dont be complicit with them. And if you are legally obligated to be complicit, find another avenue. Get involved in social work. Or the political process, i guess


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843220 - 07/24/20 06:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I want to work with addicts.
Most to give to that field.

Love to work with elders though:heart:


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy] * 2
    #26843226 - 07/24/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Good luck man. Mistreatment of addicts by prejudiced, unsympathetic, and impatient medics is rampant in my country. Always good when someone decides to do the right thing in a system filled with injustice.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy] * 1
    #26843229 - 07/24/20 06:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

About 20 years ago a grandparent was on deaths door and they had a morphine button to press. I wonder if that's still allowed with the opiate problem and regulations. But you press your way to death so there's no culpable party.


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26843240 - 07/24/20 06:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
About 20 years ago a grandparent was on deaths door and they had a morphine button to press. I wonder if that's still allowed with the opiate problem and regulations. But you press your way to death so there's no culpable party.



Quote:

Here in the usa, many terminal cancer patients arguably die of morphine overdose. The standard practice for giving morphine is typically to withhold it if you think giving it to the patient might result in their death. This is now how terminal palliative care patients are handled though. What you are treating is the pain, not the disease, because there is no way left to treat the disease. So when they ask for morphine, you give it to them, no matter what. In this way, consensual euthanasia "kind of" exists for terminally ill patients in this country, but it should be allowed for others as well IMO


The same is probably true of other terminal diseases, but I don't work in that environment, so I can't say for sure. My understanding is that for anyone who agrees to palliative hospice care, the policy is not to withhold narcotics even if you believe that giving them will be the proximate cause of the patient's death.


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26843259 - 07/24/20 06:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And sorry about the numbers.

5697 deaths total in Sweden.
Half of that aprx. in nursing homes.
So only 2800~ elders murdered with bentzo/morfin combo.


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843266 - 07/24/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You really think every single person in a nursing home in sweden who died with covid was killed by doctors?


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26843281 - 07/24/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Eutansia is humane. People should be able to die without pain or anxiety.
This Sweden thing is not it.
This is forcing someone as terminal patient, no treatment, killing combination of pharma. Lying about medication.

Counting them as deaths from covid.
The more I learn. The more like big scam this seems.

Wait for the vaccine.
Lots of money on that one.

Oh its a seasonal:lol:

Get a new one every year:hi:

Sounds like good marketing plan to me:shrug:

But this is just me rambling.
Good nigh guys. Im going to sleep.

And no the order was in use for 1.5-2 months this spring/summer. Would have to check the deaths from that period to get the exact number.


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