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Offlinehamie
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What's wrong with this monotub???
    #26843236 - 07/24/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hi everybody.
I'm a complete noob and this is my first post here, I would really appreciate some advice on this monotub I have going:





I have been waiting for this monotub to be fully colonized for almost a month now, and the top layer seems like its stopped colonizing, It has been looking patchy like this for a week now. I had the whole tub in a complete dark environment first with polly-filled holes and taped off FAE holes at the bottom. I also used to have a layer of aluminum foil on top of my substrate (I saw someone on youtube doing it like that) but now I have the foil removed and put the tub in my room where it gets good ambient light.
My substrate: manure, verm, gypsum, worm casting

Am I doing something wrong?
Should I just be patient and wait longer?
Should I put the tub back in a dark place?

Help a brother out, Thanks!


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OfflineFellasuave
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26843341 - 07/24/20 06:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

also a first-time monotub bulk grow attempt.  I had the same issue.  I was expecting a fully white substrate layer before initiating fruiting conditions.  Not sure if this was the culprit, but I removed it from the colonizing stage and mixed spawn bags with my sub the very day it turned white. I have read others wait a few days afterwards before doing so.  I'm not very familiar with the aluminum foil staff but I have seen people use it and not use it.my next attempt I am going to try and replicate Frank's tek.  he seems to have it down to a science with good results. He does make mention about having a blanket over the top during colonization of the sub which I'm assuming is just a different variation and placing foil over the top.  I understand the frustration and sure we have all been there or am still at that point.but I feel this hobby is one that after you master it, it is pretty much just second nature with many less hickups. I'll also be doing a more thorough journal next time around.  Best of luck psychonaut.


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OfflineLush4Mush
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Fellasuave]
    #26843567 - 07/24/20 08:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oh no brother! you definetly need to take out the polyfil and duct tape those big holes til it fully colonizes, think when they're in the jars and they only get a minimal amount of air when colonizing. I could be wrong but when you colonize you need the cO2 to build up with a tiny bit of FAE. you basically put your tub into fruiting conditions right away. You can put the tin foil back on too!


One of my first tubs I tapped up all the holes except for one(unkowingly). The tub was colonizing very very slow until I realized one hole was open, I duct taped the hole and 7 days later it was colonized.


Edited by Lush4Mush (07/24/20 08:54 PM)


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Lush4Mush]
    #26843649 - 07/24/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’d like to clear up a few things:

1. Darkness is not a requirement at any point.

2. It’s fine to introduce fruiting conditions as soon as you start your tub.

3. CO2 build up is not necessary to colonize substrate.

Here’s one of my current tubs. Grains were colonized in full sunlight every day, then mixed with coir and added to tubs in fruiting conditions (holes never closed up, covered, or filtered). This is 5 days in... no blankets, no foil, no misting, no fanning, no tape, no words of encouragement.



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OfflineDonkDonk
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26843663 - 07/24/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That looks fantastic. Do you do unmodified tubs?


--------------------
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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: DonkDonk]
    #26843667 - 07/24/20 09:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DonkDonk said:
That looks fantastic. Do you do unmodified tubs?




I use Pastywhyte’s EZ Dial design. Minimal modification required, proven results.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Fellasuave]
    #26844108 - 07/25/20 07:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks man, yes this hobby is incredibly rewarding and fun and gets easier each time you do it, I'm gonna look up Frank's tek and see what's up. Apparently the reason for the foil or blanket on top of substrate is to mimic nature, since mycelium grows inside the soil and gets very little light if any, and only gets exposed to sunlight after pinning.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Lush4Mush]
    #26844112 - 07/25/20 07:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I suspected that that was the problem but didn't wanna risk contamination. I'll tape up the holes and put a clean foil back on top, Thanks brother!!:cool:


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26844153 - 07/25/20 08:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phrontist said:
I’d like to clear up a few things:

1. Darkness is not a requirement at any point.

2. It’s fine to introduce fruiting conditions as soon as you start your tub.

3. CO2 build up is not necessary to colonize substrate.

Here’s one of my current tubs. Grains were colonized in full sunlight every day, then mixed with coir and added to tubs in fruiting conditions (holes never closed up, covered, or filtered). This is 5 days in... no blankets, no foil, no misting, no fanning, no tape, no words of encouragement.






Yep. :thumbup:

I’d guess your spawn was bacterial and that’s why it hasn’t colonized.


--------------------
LAGM2020


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Offlinejcm4620
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26844160 - 07/25/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phrontist said:
I’d like to clear up a few things:

1. Darkness is not a requirement at any point.

2. It’s fine to introduce fruiting conditions as soon as you start your tub.

3. CO2 build up is not necessary to colonize substrate.

Here’s one of my current tubs. Grains were colonized in full sunlight every day, then mixed with coir and added to tubs in fruiting conditions (holes never closed up, covered, or filtered). This is 5 days in... no blankets, no foil, no misting, no fanning, no tape, no words of encouragement.







nice pic😃


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PANAEOLUS FRUITING MADE SIMPLE



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InvisibleLadysKnight
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: jcm4620]
    #26844212 - 07/25/20 08:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah the sun rising over those mountains in the background through the clouds is beautiful.


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OfflineGan
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: LadysKnight]
    #26844217 - 07/25/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Dont tape the holes up. Dont put the foil back on


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Gan]
    #26844329 - 07/25/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gan said:
Dont tape the holes up. Dont put the foil back on




I tried. Some people need to learn the hard way.  :shrug:


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OfflineGan
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26844433 - 07/25/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Haha I know. I was hoping a second person giving the same advice may do something :shrug:


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Gan]
    #26844519 - 07/25/20 12:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If it's not because of the untaped holes then what do you think the problem might be? Contamination? I don't see any mold or anything.
Could it be that it's too dry? if so should I just mist the walls and put the lid back on or something?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26844551 - 07/25/20 12:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I wish I could find the source of the "mist the walls" phenomenon.

I guess it could actually help a little with general humidity, the little droplets evaporating from the sides, but with a properly made tub humidity should never really be a problem for cubes. Misting is supposed to land on the substrate and give you a little coat of droplets than then evaporate and trigger pinning while giving you a nice little humid area right where the pins will be.

I think you probably have some bacteria in there. You have manure and worm castings in that sub so it needs to be properly pasteurized, which can be done incorrectly and cause problems. It could also have been in your grain spawn from the start.


--------------------
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Heaven starts right where hell ends


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26844758 - 07/25/20 02:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
I wish I could find the source of the "mist the walls" phenomenon.

I guess it could actually help a little with general humidity, the little droplets evaporating from the sides, but with a properly made tub humidity should never really be a problem for cubes. Misting is supposed to land on the substrate and give you a little coat of droplets than then evaporate and trigger pinning while giving you a nice little humid area right where the pins will be.




You know, I actually had a chance to discuss this with my brother-in-law recently, who happens to be a PhD microbiologist and done research studies in mycology. He was actually quite puzzled by the idea of “direct evaporation triggers pinning” that seems to be generally accepted around here. Of course he wouldn’t say for certain without knowing all of the specifics, but he said it makes far more sense that evaporation is indicative of pinning conditions rather than being a direct cause of pinning.

In other words, if you’ve got evaporation happening inside the tub, you’ve got moisture in the air, which means it’s safe for the mycelium to send fruits up (they won’t dry out in the air). If you’ve got proper field capacity and your tub dialed in, it’ll work out that evaporation happens at the surface mycelium. But if you’re slightly below field capacity and you spray the inner walls rather than the surface, it shouldn’t make a difference as long as it evaporates and gets into the air.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26844764 - 07/25/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think the biggest support for evaporation causing pinning is that in a well made tub you’ll only get surface pins. If it’s just humid they’ll pin all over. At least that’s the only thing I can think of for why good surface conditions cut down on side pins.

For sure full colonization is the main thing, then it seems like evaporation is next.

The longer I’ve been here and the more I learn, the more shocked I am at how little is known about mushrooms. Especially since the internet’s been around you can think up any random thing and it’ll have been dissected and broken down every way possible.

But not shrooms for some reason.

When I signed up shroomery wasn’t somewhere I expected to be supporting and fostering cutting edge mushroom research.


--------------------
LAGM2020


Edited by A.k.a (07/25/20 02:49 PM)


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26844765 - 07/25/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

hamie said:
If it's not because of the untaped holes then what do you think the problem might be? Contamination? I don't see any mold or anything.
Could it be that it's too dry? if so should I just mist the walls and put the lid back on or something?




My guess would be bacteria, as well. You’ve made the process more complicated than you need to and added a handful of steps that are at best unnecessary, at worst harmful to your grow. I would HIGHLY recommend starting off as simply as possible, with a 100% coco coir substrate and a Pastywhyte EZ Dial monotub.  Every time you add a variable (e.g. manure, poly, foil), you’re creating another potential point of failure.


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26844795 - 07/25/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
I think the biggest support for evaporation causing pinning is that in a well made tub you’ll only get surface pins. If it’s just humid they’ll pin all over. At least that’s the only thing I can think of for why good surface conditions cut down on side pins.




Mushrooms tend to grow where it makes sense to, right? If conditions on the surface will support healthy growth and conditions on the side will not, you’ll get pins on top and not on the side. Flip those circumstances and you’ll get flipped results.

Think of it this way: no one works on creating a great side surface for pins, but side pins still happen. If tiny water beads evaporating directly from the surface mycelium was needed to trigger pinning, side pins wouldn’t happen, right?


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26844799 - 07/25/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's not needed, but it helps. If I don't mist at all for the 2nd+ flushes they end up weak, even if floated for a while. If I mist they do what I consider normal. The first flush misting usually isn't needed because there is already that nice surface with little beads everywhere evaporating. Subsequent flushes the sub is just dry and kinda dead looking but those little water droplets seem to help coax pins. I don't know why but that's how it's always been for me.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26845165 - 07/25/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Agghh that sucks  :um:
I'll make sure to not use manure for my next tub.. Is there any hope for recovering this one?? or is it pretty much wasted :frown:
I pasteurized it by leaving my substrate in a bucket that I poured boiling water in for an hour, then I hung up my sack of shit overnight and then used it in my monotub.

I guess I don't have no beginner's luck :sad:


Edited by hamie (07/25/20 08:45 PM)


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26845891 - 07/26/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

For pasteurizing you need to keep your substrate between 140-160f for an hour. That will kill off the mold spores and harmful bacteria while leaving the beneficial bacteria.

When you poured boiling water in that was 212f you started sterilizing your sub and killing off the good bacteria as well, leaving your substrate open to attack. You may have also left it too wet which would increase the chances of bad stuff happening.

I think I remember hearing some people have used sterilized manure successfully but IDK. 

When you use just coir or coir/verm you can just Bucket Tek it like you did or sterilize the coir in a PC or hydrate it with cold water. I wouldn't recommend cold water though just because it doesn't seem right and people say the myc won't colonize the coir as well as it does with some heat treatment.

I'd be surprised if that tub does anything at this point, as amazing as cubes are some times that thing just isn't really far enough along at a month to inspire hope. Does it stink in there?


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Sour grapes, sweet revenge
Heaven starts right where hell ends


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26846110 - 07/26/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ohh I see, that makes sense..
I think the water that I poured in was around 160F but I might be wrong.

And it doesn't really smell any different from the day I pasteurized it, smells just like rich wet soil. I touched the surface and it did seem a little dry though, I might just mist the lid a little bit.

I'm PCing another strain as I'm writing this right now, and I did a couple of more jars yesterday, this hobby is very addicting :crazy2:


Edited by hamie (07/26/20 01:10 PM)


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26846125 - 07/26/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’ve used sterilized manure fine but it was pans which move much quicker than cubes, and I spawned in the SAB and wrapped it in cling until it was covered in myc.

Jake did some experiments recently and said his pasteurized subs got an extra flush before contaminating compared to sterilized.


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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26846182 - 07/26/20 01:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I've had this happen before because the substrate was too wet.  I simply opened the lid for a day or so to let it dry out and it finished up great.


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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26846190 - 07/26/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Need info on spawn to bulk ratio and top layer thickness to make accurate hypothesis of the delayed colonization.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26847511 - 07/27/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok this might be very noob of me but I only layered 4 pint jars of spawn for 12 pints of manure + 6 pints of verm and a little bit of worm castings and gypsum. Is that way too little spawn?
I believe the thickness of top layer is probably half an inch.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26847517 - 07/27/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Interesting :ooo:


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OfflineKuroNeko
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26847561 - 07/27/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hamie said:
Ok this might be very noob of me but I only layered 4 pint jars of spawn for 12 pints of manure + 6 pints of verm and a little bit of worm castings and gypsum. Is that way too little spawn?
I believe the thickness of top layer is probably half an inch.




Too little. Manure and other additives unnecessary and causing more problems than good. Don't use top layer or if you "really" want to just use 1/4 inch max, just sprinkle on top to lightly cover grains. I don't do this, I mix everything and leave grains exposed. It's fine.

Use 1:2 or 1:3 ratio of clean spawn to pure coir. FAE and ambient light from start. Don't listen to blind people talking about CO2 and darkness and foil and other voodoo. They not stupid, just misguided by other blind people repeating ancient myths. You want fruiting conditions from start. And remember, no heat sources.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: KuroNeko]
    #26847870 - 07/27/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Ok noted!
Are you really from North Korea??? or is that a joke? If you are I'm really curious to know how common it is for people to consume mushrooms over there?


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OfflineKuroNeko
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26847932 - 07/27/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Western internet here is more illegal than drugs. Firing squad if caught because it's equal to spying/national security risk. Generally people have no idea about drugs. In Phyŏngyang some wealthy people smoke pot as luxury. Only in really deep underground there is knowledge of psychedelics etc.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: KuroNeko]
    #26848025 - 07/27/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I saw a show that claimed meth was basically encouraged there. And they had a black market risking their lives for American dvds. Wild stuff.


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Offlinehamie
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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: KuroNeko]
    #26849412 - 07/28/20 08:01 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Wow that's crazy..
I hope you're safe my friend, keep on the good work, it seems like you have a good grasp on this, and by the way your english is fantastic!


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Re: What's wrong with this monotub??? [Re: hamie]
    #26849425 - 07/28/20 08:13 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah man if you’re actually there then serious respect.

People trip about doing this in the USA, imagine having to sneak onto shroomery and then run grows at the risk of execution or being worked to death, and possibly taking family with you.


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