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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26844703 - 07/25/20 02:03 PM (20 days, 18 hours ago)

Off topic DQ - but I'd like to mention one thing. Do humans share a non-linguistic language with some other animals? For example, I was ill a few months ago and fell asleep on the couch over where my son stays - with his mom. I moaned during the night, as I was sick, and the dog became very agitated and wouldn't leave my side. Also - my ex-wife was crying on the phone one night and the dog became very excited and concerned . . .  I think there are sounds we vocalize that are a type of language we share with some other species - specifically animals we share emotional bonds with. We can tell the difference between our dog's yelping in excitement and when the dog yelps in pain.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26844794 - 07/25/20 03:09 PM (20 days, 17 hours ago)

Yelpish is our original language!


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26844831 - 07/25/20 03:35 PM (20 days, 16 hours ago)



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26844996 - 07/25/20 05:53 PM (20 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Off topic DQ - but I'd like to mention one thing. Do humans share a non-linguistic language with some other animals? For example, I was ill a few months ago and fell asleep on the couch over where my son stays - with his mom. I moaned during the night, as I was sick, and the dog became very agitated and wouldn't leave my side. Also - my ex-wife was crying on the phone one night and the dog became very excited and concerned . . .  I think there are sounds we vocalize that are a type of language we share with some other species - specifically animals we share emotional bonds with. We can tell the difference between our dog's yelping in excitement and when the dog yelps in pain.





I think the key to approaching inter-species communication, particularly among mammals, is to realize that we have the same emotional circuitry. Clearly, canines do not have complex or abstract thought processes, as one might attribute to primates and the neocortex, but their neurological circuitry for emotional behaviors is essentially identical to ours.

Coupled with that, dogs know their humans very intimately. So they can understand emotional cues from certain aspects of our speech or groans, and I think can read speech cadence very well. For example, most dogs are startled or scared when their human yells. They do not need to know the content of the word or words to understand that a very abrupt and serious thing has just happened.

So I agree wholeheartedly that there is an open and robust line of emotional communication between humans, their dogs, and many other mammals. And with primates, elephants and whales, one starts to get into the mental stuff, too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26845038 - 07/25/20 06:36 PM (20 days, 13 hours ago)

Dogs understand pointing, whereas even chimpanzees apparently do not. This is said to be due to thousands of years of co-evolution. Of course pointing alone is not language, and neither is emotional rapport.


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“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26845088 - 07/25/20 07:23 PM (20 days, 12 hours ago)

No, emotional rapport isn't, but I think that language that is charged with emotion can be quite meaningful to canines. Not on a semantic level, of course.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26845195 - 07/25/20 09:18 PM (20 days, 10 hours ago)

many recognize ~300 words I think I read that,
you would know better than me


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26845457 - 07/26/20 03:08 AM (20 days, 5 hours ago)

my dad and i would take pictures of birds

he was a professional

fantastic occupation

photographer

I was on vacation with him like 10 times

it made my time not negative in total on yearly basis


or I thought that makes it worth it


I would take pictures of crimson sun birds

etc.

he was on e of the best bird photographers

I love taking pictures

it's awesome

and walking


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26845733 - 07/26/20 09:01 AM (19 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
many recognize ~300 words I think I read that,
you would know better than me





This prompted me to do a quick google search. What I had known was that most dogs understand, on average, about 200 words, more or less. Smarter ones more, obviously. What I had not known is that there is a border collie named Chaser who has learned over 1,000 words, plus basic grammatical constructs -- much like a young human child. Pretty amazing.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527933/Top-dog-Scientists-teach-border-collie-understand-sentences-1-000-words.html


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26845949 - 07/26/20 11:23 AM (19 days, 20 hours ago)

truly!!!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26846443 - 07/26/20 04:48 PM (19 days, 15 hours ago)

video of dogs demonstrating skills , including Chaser

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=smart+dog+knows+toys+by+name+


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


Edited by laughingdog (07/26/20 04:54 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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the bat cave conversation [Re: laughingdog]
    #26847169 - 07/27/20 05:08 AM (19 days, 3 hours ago)



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: the bat cave conversation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26847550 - 07/27/20 10:07 AM (18 days, 22 hours ago)

just trying to hang


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the bat cave conversation [Re: laughingdog]
    #26847695 - 07/27/20 11:11 AM (18 days, 21 hours ago)

squawk, skreech, murmble.


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26858073 - 08/02/20 12:43 AM (13 days, 7 hours ago)

There is a simple answer.
I think.
Languages have recursion.
Recursion expresses complex ideas.
Humans express complex ideas.
Recursion doesn't require a language gene.
Recursion only requires complex ideas and communication.
My post should make it abundantly clear.
Languages are easier with recursion.
It's just Occam's Razor.
Using recursion is much simpler.
That language is just an outlier.
I don't believe in a universal language gene, either way.

There is a simple answer: When we have recursion in a language, it is much simpler and easier to communicate complex ideas. Recursion doesn't require a universal language gene, it only requires complex ideas and the desire to communicate them. It's really just Occam's Razor, developing recursion just makes communication far simpler. I think the language is an outlier but I don't need that outlier to not believe in a universal language gene.


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Take a look at my journal


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: Darwin23]
    #26858452 - 08/02/20 09:10 AM (12 days, 23 hours ago)

I definitely share your view that recursive language is a possibility without having to resort to some language organ or "gene." I also find striking the degree of unimportance you place on Piraha. Clearly, if one assumes language arises in other ways, such a view follows naturally, making Piraha then just an especially primitive and isolated "outlier," as you say.

I appreciate your insights, very interesting.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is language a genetic phenomenon? [Re: Darwin23]
    #26858604 - 08/02/20 10:50 AM (12 days, 21 hours ago)

your comment is self referentially recursive.


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